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Author Topic: Two MCs/ and you'd think I'd committed a crime
pixydust
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Okay, I have two main characters in my ms, and this seems to be making all the editors run for the hills. I've gotten three rejections that comment on it. Mind you, they love the first fifty but once they ask for the whole thing they seem to turn their nose up. Have I committed the unforgivable literary sin? I've never heard of this taboo, but is it really out there?

Keep in mind, I'm trying to sell Fantasy in a Christian market, as well. It's a very small market. I'm thinking there may just be some sort of unspoken formula these guys go by. You know, like the Romance Harlequin ladies. I just wish that I knew what it was.

Anyone out there have a clue?


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wbriggs
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I wonder if it's a broken "promise": that they expected a hint early on if you were going to have 2 MC's, and they didn't like finding out 50 pages in?

Certainly it's done. I don't know about that market.


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pixydust
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Well, the second MC is intro-ed on about page 40. So, I think in a way maybe you're right, Will. They don't catch on that he's another main character until they keep reading. We have a bit where the first main character has his first tragedy, then we switch and are intro-ed to the second main character. In about thirty pages from there they come together. Then we sort of follow them side by side the rest of the way.
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Leigh
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That's a little odd. If I read your novel I would think that your 1st MC was the only MC in it, and I'm saying this from a readers POV. But I guess with having 2 MC's it's kind of harder.
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autumnmuse
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Is there anything you can do to let the editor/reader know about both MC's? Maybe intercut the scenes between them a bit? Or have a brief introductory scene for one at least, then switch to the other? Just a thought.

Also, if these editors already had the synopsis, I'm not sure why they were so surprised.


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Corky
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I'm wondering if the problem is that you get your readers invested in the first MC, and then when you change to the second one, the readers are irritated because they don't want to go off with this other guy, they want to see what happens to the one they care about.
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pixydust
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quote:
Maybe intercut the scenes between them a bit?

I think that this may be part of my problem. I begin in Jon's (first mc) world and spend about four chapters there, then poof! disaster strikes, and when Jon runs off into the woods I cut to Wolf (the second mc). About two chapters later they meet and we switch mack to Jon. Then it's back and forth fairly consistently after that until the climax which ends in Jon's POV. Perhaps they want an earlier warning. One of the rejections that mentions this came after the editor asked for the first fifty. That ends at the first Wolf chapter, and you can clearly see that this character has a main role in your story, but it's difficult to see why until the chapter after that (which isn't in the first fifty).

My agent asked me to just write out a paragraph explaining my thinking on two main characters, and why I felt it was so important(She's going to a convention)to the plot. She approved of what I wrote and thinks it may help. I don't know. I feel like I'm shooting in the dark, here.


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rickfisher
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It sounds to me (and this is really reading between the lines) that what they REALLY don't like isn't that you have two MAIN characters, but that you have two POV characters. I can't imagine why this would bother anyone in a novel, though it's regularly frowned upon in short stories. But I agree that the most likely solution would be to intercut earlier, so that they get interested in both at the same time (and you have to make sure that the second one is just as interesting as the first from the start).

A question: after they get together, you keep switching POVs. Is that necessary? I mean, are they each both present all the time, or do they occasionally go off in different directions? If the latter, then you probably really need it. If the former, then you probably don't--although if part of the purpose is to show off their different internal reactions to the same stimuli, then it's completely justified. There are other reasons as well (e.g., to clue the reader in on information that the two characters are keeping from each other). But if your only reason for doing it is because you started doing it during that initial period from before they met, then I have my doubts about whether it's necessary. It would make me ask: Could you eliminate those 2 or 3 chapters from the second one's POV, and just have Jon filled in on what happened there later on (if he or the reader needs to know.)?

[This message has been edited by rickfisher (edited February 12, 2006).]


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Robert Nowall
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I can see where that would kinda make things a little jumpy, when a reader gets to that point...but I would've thought an editor should be on a more sophisticated plane of reading and should be able to get through it.

If you were writing a Harlequin Romance novel, it would be a sin against the formula, requiring one lead point-of-view character (female) from beginning to end...Christian fantasy? I dunno...


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pixydust
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quote:
I mean, are they each both present all the time, or do they occasionally go off in different directions? If the latter, then you probably really need it. If the former, then you probably don't--although if part of the purpose is to show off their different internal reactions to the same stimuli, then it's completely justified. There are other reasons as well (e.g., to clue the reader in on information that the two characters are keeping from each other).

Yes, the main reason I had to do this was becasue they go off in different directions and then come back togeather in the end. And durring the time they're togeather it's pivitol that each one have his own voice so that the reader can fully grasp the world I'm painting. It's a cultural thing. They are two sides of a pendulem. And Wolf (the second) is a very powerful character--which makes me wonder if the editors don't like two strong characters running around with different motives. They want simplicity. they'd say: "Sure, show as many POVs as you want but make one character stand out more then the rest." I actually switch POV to four different characters but two of them--Jon and Wolf--are very strong. I've had reactions from readers that they liked one or the other the best. (this is a teen book, so it was usually based on what age the kid reading it was. The older like Wolf because he was older, and so on).

The thing that bothers me the most about this is that in the third ms, which I've almost completed, there are three very strong charcters because I add a girl to the mix. I'm fairly sure they'll like that even less.

quote:
requiring one lead point-of-view character from beginning to end...Christian fantasy?

The several that I've read switched POV like any other book. And that's what makes me think it's the "too many strong charaters" thing.

So this is helping me guys thanks, I think I'm figuring it out. Too many strong characters.


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Kickle
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I believe that somewhere in Uncle Orson's Writing Class the question of two character that are seperated and then come back together is addressed. Sorry right at this moment I can't remember exactly where.
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Beth
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pix, 2 things to consider:

1. 3 rejections is nothing. You are way too early in the process of selling this book to begin second-guessing yourself. Get another pile and then we'll talk. There are probably fewer publishers in your niche than in others but it is my understanding that it's a pretty substantial and growing market; 3 is nothing.

2. The person you should be talking to about this, the person who is a bona fide expert in selling books in your field, the person who has read your novel and considered its marketability carefully, is YOUR AGENT.

I suspect you've read pretty broadly in your niche - how are the books you've read structured? If there is in fact a formula that you are not following, then when it does make its way to the right publisher, you'll be considered a "fresh new voice" or something.


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pjp
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Maybe the first chapter can introduce both characters, from their POV. Start with MC 1, and go for a while (<10 pages?). Break from that into MC 2, and what he/she is doing at the same time as MC 1.

You'll have introduced both characters early enough, and have set up the reader to go back and forth between the characters until they meet.


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pixydust
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quote:
you'll be considered a "fresh new voice" or something.

Thanks Beth, that's what I was thinking too. I did talk to my agent about this, and the reason she brought it up is because she's at a loss too. We chatted a bit about it, and I told her I thought it was incredibly strange. She is new to the Christian fantasy market (in fact I'm her only fantasy client), but she liked my ms enough to take a chance on it. Needless to say we're more like a team, as this is all knew territory for her as well. Luckily her brother (both a very well known editor in the Christian market and writer) is also writing in this speculative vein now. So, I'm hoping with the connections I've made thus far, and connections I'm hoping to make in April I can learn more about all this. But as you said, three isn't that many. A drop in the bucket. And I'm planning on meeting with an editor from Waterbrook (Random House) in April as well. So, this could all just be an oddity. From all that I've read, and ask my check book it's a lot, it is a little strange to have two very strong characters, but I had no idea it would be mentioned as a reason for rejection. But as we all know editors are people too and they all have their little quirks. We just have to find that perfect fit. I wouldn't want an editor that wasn't completely confident in the narrative anyway. Why waste both his/her, and my, time?

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autumnmuse
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I've met the Waterbrook people. They are based here in Colorado Springs. I even interviewed for a job with them once. Didn't get it, but I still think they were great and really cared passionately about what they do. Good luck.
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pixydust
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Thanks, Rachel. His name's Mick Silvia. I'm going to a conference at Mount Hermon, and Dave Long from Bethany should be there too. I'm hoping to at least pitch to one, if not both of them. It's a long conference (five days), so I should get a little chat time if I'm lucky. And I'm fairly certian that Randy Ingermanson is going to be my mentor (ya know the snowflake guy), so I'm really excited about that. I'm going to learn so much, I can't wait.
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CoriSCapnSkip
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This occurs even in children's books, where it is generally a BIG no-no! "The View from Saturday" http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0689817215/sr=8-1/qid=1139807788/ref=sr_1_1/102-9218384-8779302?%5Fencoding=UTF8 won a Newbery medal, and it has FIVE first-person viewpoint characters! Maybe there are some rules, or, if not rules, reasons it works when done one way and not another.
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Survivor
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You need to intercut earlier. Also, the main reason you'll have two main characters is because the story is about the relationship between them (doesn't need to be a romantic relationship). It wasn't clear to me from what you've said, but if you're just using these two POV characters to illustrate two different world-views rather than having them interact and change each other, then that would be a second and more serious failure.

Think of it this way, do you have one story that the two characters share, or are there two stories that happen to share these characters? If you've got two separate stories, you need to recognize that it's hard for the reader to get involved in either one once you start cutting back and forth. Intercutting earlier, within the first ten pages rather than the first forty, may help. But making sure that you're telling a single story is more fundamental.


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pixydust
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It's definitely one story. No question of that. And the whole point of the story is how they change each other. How two worlds come together. I feel very confident that my narrative is correct. My main thing is just to discover if I'm going to be walking down a more difficult road then I thought, to get published. Not only is my story a Teen Christian fantasy (I think there's only five or six out there right now that fit this category, and most are far more conservative then mine), now I discover that my narrative is a bit "nontraditional". I knew I was taking a rough road to begin with, but now, I guess I'll just have to dig my toes in harder. The more I talk about this though, the more I realize that this is going to just end up being a good thing. What is a negative to some can mean new and fresh to another.
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Survivor
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Your use of two POV's for the narrative is just fine as long as the story is about the relationship between them. But you still need to intercut earlier. Find a way to start your story as close as possible to when the relationship starts. Another way you can work it is to have one of the characters already be established, and start with the other character situated to meet your established character. But this only works if you've already sold at least one book about that character
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CoriSCapnSkip
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Actually, "Confederates," by Thomas Keneally http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0820322636/ref=sr_11_1/102-9218384-8779302?%5Fencoding=UTF8 received great critical acclaim. I thought parts of it were brilliantly written, but found the theme pretty repetitive and tiresome, and didn't see WHAT IN THE WORLD the different storylines had to do with one another. They followed historical and fictional characters, many of whom never even met, but just generally occupied the same time and place. It looked very much as if the author only had so many ideas and didn't feel like writing more than one book with the same setting, so threw parts of two or three different books into one. It wasn't like "The Killer Angels," by Michael Shaara, which at least unified all historical characters around one real event--and THAT was a confusing read because of so many characters. Both books had one (supposed) main character but many many sidetracks.
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Christine
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I aloways find questions like this difficult to answer because the truth is that most people suck at describing what is really wrong with a story. Lots of novels have more than one main character. Lots of very popular novels. Almost every romance novel has two main characters, just to shove a whole genre behind my statment. So obviously, having two main characters is not a deadly problem.

What is? Well, without reading it's difficult to say. I've read plenty of good suggestions here, but I have one more: before you start randomly changing a whole novel (I might randomly changea short story basd on this stuff but a novel...) find someone you trust to read it. Heck, see if you can get a few people to read the first few chapters...at least up to the point where the second MC is introduced. Ask them questions (don't argue!) to see if you can pinpoint the exact nature of the problem.


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pixydust
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quote:
Ask them questions (don't argue!) to see if you can pinpoint the exact nature of the problem.

This is a good idea. I've had several people read it (or at least the first 50 where this problem seems to emerge) but never with this in mind. I'll ask around to them and see if they noticed anything off about this issue.

Thanks for all your input, guys!


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