This isn't just on Hatrack, but also in the bookstore.

For me its about 13-15 minutes. Which equals about 35-40 pages.

I'm all about wordsmithing. Can the author manipulate words in an interesting way or come up with new metaphors and phrases that are clever and original? That's usually what I look for--and that's generally how I write as well. I suppose, then, that what I really look for when I pick up a new book is how similar the author's writing is to mine.

Its kinda dumb to do it to the writer but it happens all the time.

Its happened to me and a few others I can think of.

Better to leave F&F for short stories, maybe its just not the right sort of place for novels.

Edit: clarification

For a novel, the first 13 is useless. Look at the first 13 lines of nearly any novel, and you'd be hard pressed to find a "hook" of any kind.

I have found Critters to be a much better place for feedback on my writing, as they'll allow the critters to see the ENTIRE story before passing judgement.

By the way, I used to regularly visit Critters. I would pick Hatrack over Critters any day.

But I'm more lenient with novels than with short stories for the reason they're longer. As long as I'd go on reading, I'm fine. You don't have to grab me by the throat (and I'd resent that for a novel).

(edited to correct a sentence that didn't make sense).

Things I check for:

Technicality. If there is anything technically wrong with the first couple of paragraphs of a book, I put it down right away. I cannot stand to read a whole book full of errors. If someone has asked me to edit their work and I see a lot of errors right away I take a moment to prepare myself because I know it will be a long ride.

Musicality. Now technical problems are a shame, but they can be dealt with in the editing stage. Musicality is a different matter entirely. Again, here is an instance where I'll put down the book right away if it isn't pleasing. Musicality takes a very long time to learn and learn well. It's all about how the words sound on the page and how the sentences bind together. I have at times read chapters of Moby Dick simply because the language is so appealing. Musicality can be learned. But if you don't got it, your writing is going to be painful for me to read.

Quotation. It is possible to start a book with quotation and have a good beginning. But it is also very rare, at least in my opinion. I think there are several reasons for this. First of all, dialogue sets an extremely fast pace. When I first pick up a book, I want to feel like I'm finding my footing before the pace picks up. Second, dialogue often creates unidentified characters. I would personally like to know the characters a bit before they say anything. Third, a lot of people don't write very good dialogue. If they start with dialogue all they are doing is showing the worst side of their writing.

Purpose. If your first few paragraphs are meandering and don't seem to have a point, I'm not likely to keep reading.

Style. There are a hundred ways to have really awful style. If you employ any of them I will not want to read any more.

Clarity. If I don't understand what's going on I may or may not put down the book, depending on how badly I'm confused.

Now, here when I read the first thirteen, I look for things like 'does it interest me?', 'Does it paint me a picture?'.

I think what he wanted to clarify is that although there are biiig turnoffs (those you mention in your post), I don't need a hook as in "something that grabs me by the lapels and makes me *want* to absolutely read the story". The hook, for me, is a short story concept.

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Better to leave F&F for short stories, maybe its just not the right sort of place for novels.

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I don't think the first 13 has to be a grabber for a novel, but it probably doesn't hurt either. Also, a publisher is not going to toss your book away just on the first 13, nor are they going to buy it based on that. If they don't like the opening, but like what follows, they'll ask for more and request a change to the opening.

Christine said, "I decided a long time ago not to critique anything that wasn't at least somewhat competent in its writing because it's a waste of time for me to go over grammar, spelling, and basic phrasing with people who can't pull that sort of thing together."

When I read the beginning of the story I'll put the damned thing back on the shelf if the first thing I see is a clot of incomprehensible action, choppy sentences, present tense narrative, t.v. dialog or neologisms. I'll read more if it looks like there might be some characterization and rudiments of plot development. I'll buy it if I'm interested in both the story as described by reviews (or the back cover) and the writing sounds readable.

I stopped reading most sci fi about 1975. Once I thought the reason might have been that I was getting slow or perhaps was too busy. But I like some writers (OSC is one and Bradbury is another) who write modern sci fi and I like unfamiliar pre 1975 stories (except from writers like Silverberg). I finally decided it is because around 1975 the popular style changed and became too contrived and 'busy'. People stopped spinning yarns and telling stories and started selling formula fiction.

You should have seen some of the critiques I used to do though. I'd spend hours going through and helping with comma placement, misconjugatd verbs, incompetently clunky sentences, misspelled words, and basic grammar errors. Then I got back lectures on how that wasn't what they wanted me to critique or even worse -- the suggestion that an editor would care more about the story than those aggregious errors.

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Why should I be required to critique a hundred stories before I even have an opportunity of getting mine read?

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This is quite incorrect.

For Critters you simply have to submit your MS, and make sure that your participation ratio is 75%.

The queue takes about 4 weeks to go through, which isn't that bad.

And then your ENTIRE story gets critted, not just the first 13.

I don't do full crits on novels unless I definitely feel that the writing is really strong enough to support a book.

When you set out to seriously write a novel, your skills should be at the level where you can even get solid feedback from your family and friends. In other words, you're so skilled that they are drawn into the story and care more about the characters and plot than about your feelings. When they point out a clutzy bit of prose or a basic error, they actually feel proud of having spotted something you didn't catch. They know you've got what it takes, and they know that you know it.

Now, there are different styles and different tastes. If a given friend or relative isn't in the audience for a work, they'll never be able to be much help. But when you're ready to write a novel length work, you'll know someone who'll read the whole thing and really like it for it's own sake rather than for yours. You don't really need to appeal to strangers. Maybe some of the friends will be people that you met at Hatrack. Really, if you're reading this post, it's quite likely. But they'll crit your work best because they take you seriously as a skilled writer.

So what if nobody that knows you will read your writing seriously? Well, you need to be improving your skills and making more literate friends. Of course, everyone should always be doing both those things already, but it's particularly important if you don't actually know anyone that takes you seriously as a writer. Which to concentrate on is obvious, since the best way to make literate friends is to be serious about improving your writing.

Hatrack allows you to grow relationships with developing writers whose work you respect. Critters doesn't do that. It allows you access to strangers who will read your work.

Critters is Critters. Hatrack is Hatrack.

I look at the title, cover illustration (sorry, but it does affect me to some degree, though not as much as a good title) and the author's name. Then I read the inside flyleaf to see it the story sounds interesting. If the book passes all those tests, I open to the first chapter (I skip all prologues and whatever that are in italics.) and start reading. You really do have to prove something/show me something interesting within half the page or I reshelve the book and move on down the line. If the first page test reads well, I'll open to somewhere in the middle and see if the pages are full of long, dense paragraphs. I might sample one or two bits. If the book passes all these tests, I keep it out and, when I'm through with the looking, take it and any other possibles over to a comfy chair and look at them seriously. I take a little time to decide if I am going to really like reading this to the point of owning it or if it's something to note to pick up at the library.

The cover helps to grab my eye, but not much. I don't trust blurbs anymore, so I flip to the first page, read a bit (2-3 pages, more if I have time). Then, being a contrary person, I flip the book to a random page near the middle, and see whether the fireworks of the beginning have fizzled out.

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Then I got back lectures on how that wasn't what they wanted me to critique or even worse

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I've done several crits here, and I do point out grammatical issues (hopefully I haven't been too picky). Maybe I've just gotten lucky, but so far no one has flamed me for it. Frankly, I'd appreciate someone double-checking grammar and punctuation because I know I don't catch everything.

Christine has hit the nail on the head. Most of the anguished protests about how unfair it is to limit the crit to the first 13 come from inexperienced writers who don't want to let this reality in: IF YOUR WRITING SUCKS, IT WILL BE OBVIOUS IN THE FIRST 13.

Interesting this topic came up. Two days ago I was in the grocery store and stopped by the aisle where they display the top selling paperbacks. I went through about ten of them and read only the first 13. Funny how the books with the really captivating first 13 are authors who have been around a long time. Of the top sellers in that rack, VC Andrews had the best opening first 13, in my opinion.

I came to the realization some time ago that getting serious about writing has hampered my ability to be a simple reader. Now I find myself thinking about the mechanics of how a good author works their magic. And when I pick up a book, fully intending to focus on the author's technique and end up forgetting my mission and find myself swept into the story... that's when I label them a GREAT author.

However, there is a difference between F&F people saying "Your writing isn't good" and "I don't know what is going on? I need more info."

When I say that a passage is ambiguous, I clearly state whether the ambiguity is good or bad, and why. But for your purposes, it's not necessary that anyone do that. If the ambiguity is the good kind, they'll ask for the rest of the story, desho?

As I've said before, good ambiguity is focused, it has the reader asking specific (if rather broad) questions. Bad ambiguity is everything else. Sometimes a good ambiguity requires a bit of the bad kind, such as when you try to show that the narrator has a very strange perceptual framework, or is unreliable for some other reason. Some people will have the ability to cut through a significant amount of the bad ambiguity as long as it is no more than is necessary to raising the good ambiguity, some won't.

They went too the store too bye sum cake for their birthday party.

Some of the worst errors are words that are spelled correctly (and so MS Word doesn't catch them) but are not actually the right word.

Moral of the story is: enrich your vocabulary. It may be your only defense. Along that line, I recommend subscribing to Dr. Goodwords "Word of the Day." For those of us who enjoy reading the dictionary for fun, this is a nice daily tidbit:
Dr. Goodword's Word of the Day from the Alpha Dictionary

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So, this might be a really stupid question but as far as spelling, doesn't grammer and spell check catch the worst of it? Like, how do you get a story riddled with errors. I know word doesn't catch everything, but it should make things atleast readable. Now, online on boards and IM, I am horribly lazy and my spelling is awful, but when I type stories, I always run spell check.

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I just wrote the following..."They were too old or two young..."

I caught the error -- this time. I sometimes wonder how many I don't catch, especially in a novel when my eyes get crossed at trying to parse every word to make sure it is correct. The truth is, many times, even in edits, we see what we expect to see.