posted
I'm working on a story, and I've got my story pretty well figured out. The first part is written in the stilted speech of epics. I've got my two main characters, valorous and honorable wizards, who go out into the world to seek adventure. They travel to distant lands and perform great deeds, gaining great glory. But on one quest, the feat is too great, and while they are successful, the cost is one wizard's life.
The other wizard reveals his necromantic abilities and raises his fallen friend, at great personal cost, and while the first is alive, his visage is horribly twisted. Ashamed and angry that his friend would bring him back to this cursed life with evil, forbidden arts instead of letting him die a death of glory, he turns on his friend, and they begin to wage a great war.
That's actually the exposition of the story. What I'm interested in is: what on earth could that fatal quest be? I don't want to rip something right out of mythology, but I want it to be of the same flavor. It really doesn't matter what the quest was as much as the resolution of it, but it bugs me. I'm drawing a blank.
posted
it really doesn't matter what the quest is? are you quite sure about that?
how about having it be a quest for a magic ring they can use to defeat the bad guy! only the first wizard is tempted by the ring and tries to keep it for himself and it betrays him and kills him.
posted
Ok.. let me rephrase: It's not as important as the resolution. I want something exciting, but it's not the focus of the story.
And I also mentioned that I didn't want something right out of mythology... or LOTR!
And I could have come up with "bad guy"... but what qualifies as a "bad guy"? Also- this world has no humanoids, just humans. Dragons and other magical creatures, maybe, but not much.
posted
Maybe the quest is to kill a giant white whale. That would be cool, and there are all kinds of ways that could go wrong.
Posts: 1750 | Registered: Oct 2004
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posted
I think that perhaps Beth is making fun of the way you phrased that entire thing. If you've read anything on this forum you'll see that there is a big adversion to the whole "unlikely heros leave on an epic adventure until something goes tragicly wrong" type of thing.
Perhaps she is also laughing at the fact that you're asking us for one of the most influencial aspects of your story. What this "quest " is and why they're going on it could be a very major thing...it could tell us lots about the characters, setting, and whatnot.
Beth, I like that whale idea. Its like "wizarding harpooners gone bad" or something. You shouldn't give away all your good story ideas like that.
posted
I just think that if you're going to use someone else's ideas instead of your own, you owe it to yourself to use the very best out there.
Posts: 1750 | Registered: Oct 2004
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posted
You could give it an ironic twist by making the object of their original quest the defeat of an evil Liche King. That way, the surviving wizard doesn't have to have previously unsuspected necromantic abilities (and whatever necessary reagents and so forth) already.
The Liche King was trying to raise a giant undead army or something like that (which is why they were out to stop him). Everything's been set up already...but instead of using the spell to raise tens of thousands of shambling zombies or whatever, your character realizes that he could alter it to revive his friend.
He isn't secretly studying forbidden arts the whole time, he just happens to have the opportunity right when it would be most difficult for him to resist temptation. That also can explain why he doesn't get things quite right, he's working with an unfamiliar spell and trying to change the use sort of on the fly. It also makes both characters more complex, how much of the rage and bitter emnity of his friend is really his own and how much is the result of the flawed spell? How much of the novice necromancer's war against his former friend is motivated by desire for self-preservation and how much is in the hope of undoing his own tragic error?
And, most importantly, it's one of the archtypes of mythic cycles. They set out to destroy a great evil and end up becoming the very thing they were fighting.
posted
I have to say...I would never ask someone that question. I've asked plenty of things about plenty of stories...questions about weaponry, fighting techniques, horses, viruses, bacteria, DNA...all kinds of help on background/research...but to try to get someone else to provide a pillar of the story?
Furthermore, by the very fact that you're asking I have to presume that you're using a standard-issue D&D world, which always show me a lack of real thought or planning. If this were an original world, then there's no way we could tell you what quest finally ended life for your wizard because we wouldn't understand enough about the world to give you a reasonable answer.
Sooo....
I have a suggestion, and I do hope it helps but you may not like it...Stop what you're doing and do some planning. Think about the world these wizards live in. Think about the magic. Think about the cost of magic. (You've hinted at that with the necromancy problems but I think you could do even more.) All magic should have a cost. Does the caster's hair fall out? Do they lose a year of their life every time they cast a spell? Do people start to hate them more and more with each use of magic? Let your imagination soar and try to answer the question.
This is a good place to start because it will help shape and define the world in which your wizards live. Once you have shaped such a world, drawn the maps, thought about the politics, populatd it with peoples, creatures, tribes, etc...once you've done all that, I suspect your quest will roll right out. You may even find you have a far richer story.
Good luck. I know how difficult background and exposition can be.
posted
If you need a character to be dead, there are a lot of ways it could happen; you wouldn't even *need* a quest.
I suggest you explore the world you're creating so thoroughly that you know the ways a wizard could get himself killed (beyond getting hit by a bus, I mean, a chariot). It shouldn't just be interesting how what happens after the necromancy; it should be interesting before.
I will find it hard to believe that a friend would wage war against someone for saving his life! There *must* be something else going on. What is it?
Recommended: "A Thousand Ideas in an Hour," in OSC's Characters & Viewpoint. For fantasy worlds, he has this variant: "What is the price of magic?" -- a starting place for brainstorming. I dislike that question; I prefer the more general, "Why isn't magic so commonplace it's mundane?"
posted
When I began world building my world, I had a couple of vague ideas in my mind. A culture where the men and women lived and worked independent of each other, only coming together for purposes of procreation, ritual, or by chance. And I wanted to explore the idea of rock energy. (If you are a rock person, you understand this. If you are not, nothing I say can explain the concept to you. Note: not all geologists are rock people. Some are science people, and rocks are the incidental topic of their studies. )
Anyhow, with that very rough concept in mind, I began assembling the "bits and pieces" of my world. I like Tibetan culture, so my group of men became a monastery of men living in a remote location high in the Himalayan-like mountains. My group of women became a tribe of goddess worshippers, at odds with the religious beliefs of the men. And then there were the common people, and countries/towns where men and women cohabitate.
From there I asked myself a question: How can I create friction in the society, in a way that is not easily resolved? My answer was: divide them up into castes. Make several religions that don't agree with each other. Make magic taboo in some places, revered in others.
Why, I asked myself, would magic be a big taboo? Perhaps there was some horrendous and heinous event connected with magic/mages that left a lasting imprint on the society. People can't get over the effects of that event. Some people would see it as proof that magic is evil. Others would see the men (mages) performing the act as the evil ones.
Once I had a gameplan for the society, I began drawing a map. I wanted my monks to be in a remote, inhospitable environment, so they had to be high in the frozen mountains. Other facets of the world began to emerge as I drew a map, began detailing how the castes were divided up, the mythology that explained the division, and writing a history of the horrible event that made magic a thing to be feared.
Having this level of detail about my society is absolutely crucial to me. It allows me to KNOW my characters well, to know their reactions, their motives, and their backstory. 99% percent of this world-building detail will never ever make it into print. 100% of this world-building detail is essential to the development of my characters. Every word they speak, every action they take springs from the underlying world building I've done.
I rarely find myself puzzled about character motive. I've never been in the situation where I needed to figure out a "quest" because the quest evolved naturally out of the culture of the world.
World building is, for me, as important as my main character development. In essence, the world IS a character, and the MC's interaction with it is no less important than any other relationship they have.
[This message has been edited by Elan (edited April 23, 2006).]
posted
The points about the importance of milieu are important. For my scenario, I had to fall back on the only milieu information you provide, namely that necromancy exists and is utterly abhorrent to your characters. You don't really tell us anything else. I couldn't give any other answer without knowing a good deal more about your milieu.
"Rock energy" as Elan calls it, is a bit of a misleading term. For the most part, rocks transmit or reshape energy flows, they do not originate the energy. I think that one thing most people can do is to go somewhere that has exposed bedrock. If you take off your shoes and walk about on it, you should be able to sense the remarkable difference in feel between that and, say...asphalt. How much you feel depends on your sensitivity, but any normal human should be able to feel something, it's your home planet, after all.
I won't mention specifics, but as another means to help, list what you don't want to use (quests for ring, destroying deathstars, ...), and then list some new ideas. Don't worry about how silly they are, just list them. Eventually, you may find one you like, or trigger something that inspires another idea.
posted
There isn't really a whole lot to add here. Why did you ask? There was some other motivation that led you to ask. Do you have it fleshed out and this one little part you don't want to seem cliched?
Posts: 341 | Registered: Jan 2006
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posted
*sigh* It's not the pillar of my story. These two wizards aren't unlikely heroes, they were born to this lifestyle- it's sort of a tradition. And this thing isn't supposed to be terribly original.
Basically, these two wizards are high-born and go out to do quests, none of which I go into great detail about. Basically I just wanted some idea of a quest that is interesting. Heck, I'll probably just do something trite like battling a dragon or something. Anyway, it's not the quest that's the focus, it's what happens after that. How the raised wizard turns on the other and wages a mighty war and stuff happens.
But I don't even know if I'll keep the story. I've told by one person the plot is a piece of crap anyway. So maybe I'll just write it as a piece of crap and use Beth's brilliant ideas.
--
Sorry- this is the start of the third week of illness, and I'm a little less than cordial right now. Susannaj4 had the right idea- I have the entire story done, but I've changed POV, so what had just been referred to as "their final quest" now needs more than that. It changed from focusing on the necromancer's heir to omniscient focusing on the two wizards. I don't really want something like "and the two mighty wizard went on a futile quest to save the world from an evil Dark Lord by destroying the One Ring" or "they went on a ship searching for a great white whale [insert Moby Dick here]"... And it's not a terribly important quest either, it's simply to increase their glory by proving valor. In fact, if they hadn't gone on the quest to begin with, nothing bad would have happened. I'd rather not have a trite, cliched little quest, but if I need to, I will.
posted
So do they have to do 'normal' wizard things? Can they have a specialty that they share and then someone comes along and asks both of them to do it, a contest type thing, but it takes both wizards to complete the task. Then one must be killed and one must escape the other in possession of the retrieved article and return it to the guy who asked for it. Maybe twist it and one must die for it to be returned and neither do so they are angry with each other(which could be funny), I don't know. Just part of my twisted thought pattern.
Posts: 341 | Registered: Jan 2006
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posted
I just want to add in that, first - the plot doesn't sound crap at all. I happen to like the idea of it (sure a lot of it will depend on the writing choices you make) but as far as outlines go, I think its pretty swell
I know a lot of people on here don't like 'epic quests' and such, but also people do... different strokes for different folks.
I just wanted to give you a suggestion that might help, it's what helped me get through a lot of tough places I experienced in writing my own story.
Don't think about such problems in advance. Just write the story. Looking at the problem with knowledge of everything that happens in your story (because its written) is better than not knowing anything at all...
And i also found, at least in my case anyways, that your characters do things that suprise you, and events have a way of sometimes writing themselves, and you never anticipated it. Its really neat when that happens..
So I say, just write it, and worry about that when you get to it, and maybe you'll have a better time of it. But it also may not work out that way... who knows - it's just what worked for me
posted
As the wizards search for Mystery_X roaming the mountains a goat above them dislodges a boulder that smashes the face of wizard1, in a desperate attempt to save his friends life he draws on the lifeforce of a girl picking huckleberries. Alternatively spill the goats blood (leaving out the girl) all over wirard1 ruining his favorite robes his wife had just embroidered. Or Have innocent child watch the brutal sacrifice of said goat wich in itself could cause all sorts of problems (think of one you like that fits your story). If you've been sick a dimming of creativity is understandable. Now take some vitamin C, zinc if you have it, and some protein (chicken soup or protein powder) you need them. Make a fruit smoothie Posts: 48 | Registered: Apr 2006
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posted
I wouldn't have gone through that long post if I'd thought the plot sounded like crap. it sounds like a great idea, actually. Two one-time friends set at odds over a twisted sort of evil cast in a well-meaning fashion.
What sounds like crap is everything but the plot -- most notably, the millieu. In fact, it highlights my biggest problem with fantasy today.
Just a normal wizard? What the hell is a normal wizard? We don't have wizards in this world, so there can't be anything normal about one. And even if there were wizards in this world, I suspect that saying it's just a normal wizard is something like saying, "He's just a normal human." or even, "He' just a normal lawyer." or, "She's just a normal doctor." What is a normal anything? Everyone has more depth than that and if you want to tell a story, if you want to fill out a plot and make it shine, then you need to explore that.
Why are you writing this story anyway? What is your end goal?
posted
The only thing that I can really go on is that neither of them is a necromancer, which is "not normal" by virtue of what is stated in the first post. But the more important point is that FK doesn't seem able to get anything constructive out of this thread right now. So I'll leave any further comments for later.
Posts: 8322 | Registered: Aug 1999
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posted
Ok- I appreciate the comments about plot. Anywho... These are not "just normal wizards" doing "normal" things... here wizards aren't that common, and these two happen to be the most powerful wizards of the time, not strictly by power, but also by inheritance- both of their fathers are mages of great holding. They have broad ranges of talents, each different than the other so that they work well together. If you turn Gilgamesh and Enkidu into wizards, you're on the right track.
Anyway, of wizards L and K, K is a necromancer, but L doesn't know it. Necromancy is a dark, forbidden art, so K doesn't let it be known, instead focusing on "lighter" magick. As per tradition, the sons of great holders become errant mages/knights/etc to hone their skills and prove their valor. L and K were childhood friends, so they set off together, seeking glory.
But then one day L and K take on too great a challenge. L dies, and K, feeling woe at L's death, uses his yet unrevealed necromantic skills to raise L, but while L is alive, his face is horrible to behold. L grows angry at K, for rather than dying a glorious death, he lives a twisted life. L leaves K, and gathers great force with which to destroy K.
That's the way the story starts, and focuses on the great war that begins between L and K. I originally started this story as a prequel to a story I actually wrote as a child, about a young wizard who overcomes and evil wizard A. So I started it from A's POV, who came rather abruptly into the middle of this war, and came to be K's heir. A only knew the consequence of the abovementioned quest, not what the quest was.
Now, all of my attempts at writing this story have failed miserably, and I don't know why. (Maybe b/c I keep getting sick or busy and losing my train of thought) However, I'm also a songwriter who writes epic rock. I thought maybe I could take K and L's story, drop A, and use it as material for my songs. (That's to answer Christine's post)
So what I'm asking is: what would serve as an acceptable quest for the abovementioned situation? It might help to know that L is of fiery disposition and quick to action, while K is his foil - thinking well before acting.
I've dismissed all forms of -'artifact/magical item proves to be fickle and kills (in)directly it's bearer' -Anything by sea -Anything that will affect the world dramatically (and directly) whether they win/lose/ignore it
I tried brainstorming with a friend, and ended up with something involving invisible missile-bearing ducks and a morbid version of our programming teacher who attacks with interfaces and SDTs and a "smile attack" So if that shows you how well I'm doing at this...
posted
Brainstorming with a friend doesn't sound like a great idea to me, unless they take it "seriously." Based on your responses, that doesn't sound like the case, at least with this friend.
I was reluctant to offer concrete ideas, because it seems like a key part to writing itself. However, I'll offer something nearly tangible.
You say the quest really isn't important, don't want it to be cliched, is for glory, and one of them dies on the quest. Seeking knowledge seems to be the perfect motivation, and could even explain the death (if they're new to whatever they seek...).
posted
I like Survivor's ironic twist. As the focus here is the relationship it would be a cruel twist of fate for them to be on a quest to eradicate a nest of necromancers, only to have one of them be a necromancer.
You could make the stakes worse, say having the necro-able wizard having to steal the life energy from a child to return his friend to life. Find some way to rationalize it through and you have both interior and exterior conflict that goes several layers deep.
posted
Brainstorming: What would be stronger than two good wizards?: three wizards, genie, gang of assassins(sneaky buggers), agree with above take out different necromancer(s), <- possibly involved with overthrowing an existing government wich means L+K stop an event wich would have changed the world.
There are plenty of ideas here to fill in that shell of a pillar of a great plot.
posted
Something in this thread makes me think that your heart isn't in this, first off you said that it was written in stilted speech. Why would you think of it that way if you didn't look down on epics? Also you say that the quest doesn't matter. If it doesn't matter then there is no reason to include it.
One more thing that I think will help you, to me it sounds like you are approaching this story as a reader, not a writer. Just because something isn't focused on in the story doesn't mean that you don't have to. This quest and it's results are the cause of the major conflict, that makes exactally what happened important. I like this plot, but if you don't start caring about it it will be as your friend said crap.
Oh and don't waste your time on things you don't want to include.
posted
One thing that annoys me with dark and forbidden arts type stories is this: How does one go about becoming a master of a dark and forbidden art on the sly? If a wizard is a heroic character, always going off on valiant quests, always with his best heroic pal by his side, when does he have the time and privacy to learn a forbidden and deadly magic? Where does he find the information? How can he remain good and pure as he practices this evil, soul-twisting art?
Just some things that I would want addressed if I were reading your finished work.
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So if that shows you how well I'm doing at this...
