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Author Topic: Television Writing
lehollis
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I've seen a few statements on Hatrack lately that all television writing is crap. I can't remember who said it, and it doesn't really matter. I disagreed, but I always kept my mouth shut. It's a matter of opinion.

But I love what OSC had to say today, from the site's main page.

quote:
"Folks, I've said it before, but I'll say it again. This is the golden age of television. As the movies flail about trying to find a way to get good writing and good stories past movie studios interested only in spectacle and stars, television has become not just a writers' medium, but a place where good writing can actually get on the air -- not always, not even most of the time, but often enough that you can spend hours a week watching some of the best dramatic art in our culture.

No, let me put it differently: Most of the best dramatic writing and performance in our culture today appears first on television.

So it's a darn good thing we've got cable and satellite and TiVo and DVR so that there's simply no excuse for missing the best shows."


I've felt the same way the last few years.

EDIT: And the reason I'm saying it now is merely because I liked how he said it (as is the case with many things he says.) It's still just an opinion, and therefore not really important anywhere outside my own head

[This message has been edited by lehollis (edited October 08, 2007).]


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JeffBarton
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I think TV carries many examples of great writing. Buffy the Vampire Slayer, Angel, Firefly and Veronica Mars are noted for their writing and coherent season-long story arcs. Oh, wait. They've all been canceled.

The point is that there is good writing on TV. The question is whether it's respected and valued. I think it has to be a commercial success as well as artistic in order to stay on the air. It takes more than writing as in those examples to appeal to the mass audience that can bring in ratings.


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HuntGod
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There is more good TV right now than at any other time that I can recall. You are also seeing alot of very good actors from film migrating to TV, since cinema is pretty abyssmal at the moment. I know a few years back seeing Donald Sutherland or Glenn Close appearing regularly on not just TV, but non big 3 TV would have been unheard of.

There are so many good TV shows out there right now that it is going to cause a minor collaps, I know myself and many friends are being faced with having to choose what to watch.

As recently as 2 years ago, choosing wasn't a problem because there were only maybe 10 shows really worth watching. Now the crop has blossomed and some are gonna die simply because of the time commitment. If I didn't use torrents/tivo I'd only watch a fraction of what I watch since I rarely watch TV during "primetime" hours.

Shows I think are worth watching:

Heroes, House, Bones, Chuck, Reaper, Pushing Daisies, Journeyman, Smallville, Supernatural, K-Ville, Damages, Ghost Whisperer, Life, The Unit, The Office, My Name is Earl, Bionic Woman, Dexter, Numbers, Shark.

That's leaving off shows like Lost, Jericho, Medium and Battlestar Galactica that haven't started yet.

Or shows like Eureka, 4400, Burn Notice and Psych that are off season runs.

That's alot of TV...

[This message has been edited by HuntGod (edited October 08, 2007).]


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lehollis
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quote:
I think TV carries many examples of great writing. Buffy the Vampire Slayer, Angel, Firefly and Veronica Mars are noted for their writing and coherent season-long story arcs. Oh, wait. They've all been canceled.

The point is that there is good writing on TV. The question is whether it's respected and valued. I think it has to be a commercial success as well as artistic in order to stay on the air. It takes more than writing as in those examples to appeal to the mass audience that can bring in ratings.


Good point. I liked three of those, but never watched Veronica Mars. (It's good?)

Buffy, Angel and Firefly are all old TV compared to what OSC is referring to. (Plus, two of those lasted more than five seasons, which is a good run.) They were good, but they were rare exceptions at the time.

I didn't mention them by name in the first post, but OSC is talking about Life, Journeyman, and Bionic Woman. He's also said good things about Heroes and Friday Night Lights. All are currently running.

And he makes a strong point. I didn't realize it until I read that, but its easier to find good television than a good movie the last year or two. For me, anyway.

So, I guess my feeling is that the good writing is appearing more frequent lately on television--less frequent in the movies.

[This message has been edited by lehollis (edited October 08, 2007).]


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wrenbird
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I don't know, I get irritated with shows that are too "well written." Meaning: any show that people always have witty, charming, quirky responses or always react in poetic/dramatic ways, like no real person would. Yes, there are good shows, I guess, but there are too many that try too hard.
Still, I won't even watch 90% of the 30 minute sictcoms, because they are just too dumb.
Call me an uncultured swine, but I like reality shows.

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Zero
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I don't think Mr. Card knows much about the film industry.
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lehollis
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Hmm. I'm confused--I thought he was talking about writing, not the film industry?
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Zero
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Well, I don't claim to know much about the Hollywood industry. But I was involved in the production of a feature film last year, and I was on the writing team.

And it strikes me as a huge oversimplification to categorize industry film making as "only concerned with stars and effects" (or however he put it.) With the predominant assumption being this is a difference between TV and cinema.

An aside, an assumption like this should be studio specific. Is he talking about WB? New Line? FOX? Who is he talking about, all of them collectively?

For the record excellent cinema writing exists, Shindler's list, Beautiful Mind, and I would add Batman Begins, Monster's Inc, all well-written, and there is poor writing, like Lava Dude and Shark Girl, or Pee Wee Herman. Just like there is excellent TV writing--presumably--and terrible TV writing, like any given soap opera.

You may be shocked to learn this is true for novels as well. There is always some dependable curve in the statistics, it's based on the law of large numbers.

But, what you decide to be "good writing," however, is a very relative thing. And I think it's just a bit asinine to think TV writing has some kind of absolute advantage over cinema in terms of opportunity. Especially because the "best" TV writers are often the ones aspiring to be picked up as screenwriters.

I have found that as writers, especially famous/published ones, we have a tendency to write about things we have little authority/experience with. Because we can, and people will listen to us. And often they will pay us to listen. And we have some kind of hunch that we have things pretty well figured out...

And sometimes we're wrong.

I have my doubts Card has spent much time dealing with the intricacies of the film industry in general, or even screenwriting in particular, with the exception being his relationship to a potential Ender's Game film, to which he might have become jaded.

My opinion.

[This message has been edited by Zero (edited October 09, 2007).]


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lehollis
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Oh, now I see. You're talking about something completely different. Okay, then.

However, I don't like that you seemed to address your comments to me, when it's OSC that made the statement. My only point is that there are some shows on THIS SEASON which seem to be well written--so far. Maybe you should address your comments to him, if you feel so strongly about them. I'm sure you "famous/published" writers will have lots to talk about. (It's obviously above my head; thanks for pointing that out.)

And here I thought we were talking about the enjoyment of television and films. I didn't realize you had to be an expert on the "intricacies of the film industry" to know if a show is enjoyable.

(And while all your movie examples were well written, they aren't from this year. Another example of why your statements--while they sound correct to me--are not related to what he's talking about.)

That's okay, though. I've already learned what happens to topics here, and I should have remembered it.

[This message has been edited by lehollis (edited October 09, 2007).]


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Zero
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I feel the need to make a few clarifications here.

1. I misunderstood your topic, you're right.
2. My comment was not addressed to you.
3. I used the plural pronoun "we" in the "famous/published" writers comment to describe a tendency writers share, and I include myself in that group--writers, the aside about "famous/published" writers was to indicate that they are especially guilty of this tendency. As is obvious, I am neither famous nor published.
4. Please don't snap at me like I just slapped you in the face, because I did not. I really don't appreciate the attitude.

And, honestly, I'd like an apology.

Exactly on topic or not, my comments were strictly my own opinion and so advertised. If you're offended by outside opinion then don't produce threads.

[This message has been edited by Zero (edited October 09, 2007).]


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Amberjade
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I kinda agree, while some stories are crap, others are mere gold. The gargoyles cartoon show showed that intelligent writing in a cartoon is possible. They had great progression and story arcs as well. The pushing up daises tv show isn't to bad. The plotline is good and the writing is just as good. Someone people don't like chuck, but I think the story is a good one. No one liked that anchor women show that was going to be put on. Except super horny men. It's best, in the end, is to just have an open mind when it comes to tv. A good question is, when does opinion become fact when it deals with something?
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Zero
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But I apologize for hi-jacking your topic. I guess I missed your point and got excited about something else.
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HuntGod
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As a horny man I do not appreciate being pigeonholed into the group that wanted to watch that anchor woman show...I, in fact, did not!

I still think there is more good TV right now than in recent memory.

I find most of the cinema offerings week or repetitive. There are a few gems out there, but the box office earnings seem to bear this out, I believe they had the worst weeks earnings in the last 8 years last week. That says something about the quality of the offerings.


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Zero
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I think it would only be fair to point out that the window of pre-production and production for a new cinema is drastically longer than a new episode of "The Office."

So, truly, you're trying to compare shows on TV today, (mostly produced within the last few months,) to films released today that began production as many as three years ago. So it isn't clear if the cinema being produced at this moment, or within the past few months, will deliver the quality the recent television programs are (according to you,) because those films aren't out yet.

Whether these future films will impress you---that's unclear, but let's at least compare apple to apples here, as best we can.


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HuntGod
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I'd argue that production and pre-production shouldn't be criteria for that judgement.

A good film produced but unreleased 5 years ago, and released now will be and should be judged on it's peers, not on other films that WERE released 5 years ago when it should have been.

A game that would have been fantastic 3 years ago is delayed and delayed, by the time it is release other more rushed, but inferior products have come out since then. Though it is still a good game, innovative and unique ideas have now been seen in other releases because of the delay.

Release is what matters not when ya started it. Now if there is a plethora of really good film in pre-production right now, then maybe we will be having a different discussion in 3 years. Escpecially if this very talented crop of TV writers has moved on the writing screenplays by then :-)


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Zero
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I would point out that films in production 2 years ago are from the ideas and technology of 2005, but shows produced today can take ideas and technology from 2007. It isn't always a big deal, but sometimes it is.

But you make a compelling point, and I can't really argue with it.

[This message has been edited by Zero (edited October 09, 2007).]


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Amberjade
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Huntgod: Sorry, I hope I didn't offend you or anything.
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