posted
I have a story idea where the protagonist is a paedophile. It's gonna be his POV, 3rd person ltd -- the story will only work from his POV.
A while ago I wrote a story about an alcoholic, he was weak man and I had some reviewers say that they couldn't identify with him...and that he had no redeeming features.
So...a paedophile? I don't want to make him likeable. I am prepared to make human, but can I make people care about the little girl he is with (the victim) instead of him? I planned on making him complex and disturbing...is that an acceptable strategy for keeping readers hooked to an unlikeable protag?
Any other ideas...I can't say too much as I really like my idea.
posted
People won't be able to relate to a pedophile protag, and they won't want to. If you make him in any way the good guy, people will feel sick. Pedophiles are bad people who commit unspeakable crimes. Alcoholics are redeemable in my opinion, to me, once you commit the crime of pedophilia, that will brand you for life, and it should.
So instantly loose some of the things that draw a reader to a story, a protagonist that people like and can relate to. Sure, some stories have MC's that aren't likable (like House) but as a reader/viewer you hope, deep down, that the MC is good, and any time they seem good, your heart thrills. Any time a pedophile does something good, it will be tainted by his sins.
posted
No, he is not the good guy in my story...I have used the word protagonist wrongly. What I mean is that he is the POV character. In the story he is predatory but is killed (Makes us all happy!) by the end.
The good guy is not the POV character. Is that clearer? The paedophile is the antagonist, yet the story is from his POV.
posted
I think this could work, because I've wanted to do it for ages, but you'd have to be especially careful. After all, we have Hannibal Lecter as a protagonist, and I feel society is disproportionately reactionary regarding paedophiles. People don't want to learn why they are how they are, and to pull this feat off would be a big achievement. However, speak to people that have worked with paedophiles or who are paedophiles to get this right, because otherwise it won't do what it sets out to do.
My mother has worked with paedophiles (as well as other ex-offenders, homeless people and drug addicts) for years, and it's an area where very few know anything at all. Unfortunately, most paedophiles will reoffend, and most are only caught after numerous crimes have already been committed.
It may be an idea to write the story about a man who's been to prison for paedophilia (perhaps downloading porn rather than actually physically abusing someone himself), and finds himself on the outside, battling temptation. I can see how, particularly in a sci-fi/fantasy story, this could work. He could be a thoroughly pathetic, unlikeable character, but he's thrust into the role of hero. I'm thinking of the protag from Carlton Mellick III's 'Sea of the Patchwork Cats', who was an alcoholic, no-good, selfish slob.
It would be harder to pull off for a still-practising paedophile. So it'd be best if he was trying to reform, and suffered from the guilt of his actions. Then he could attempt to redeem himself.
Finally, what if his crime was against someone slightly older (say, 14, rather than 4)? This would make him less immediately repugnant. In fact, there are circumstances where this happens all the time, and there is a big difference between these people and 'real' paedophiles. It's often considered less socially taboo.
posted
From his point of view this will be difficult, very difficult. The world will be seen from the mind of a sick man - which few people can - or even want - to identify with. You might want to pick up and read "Lolita" which is about a middle aged man and his affair with an adolescent girl. Even here though, he is not a serial predator.
You might want to investigate the possibility of making the pedophile someone in position of authority, who is greatly admired and loved - that - contrasted with his horrible sickness, might create an interesting story. Make him a priest, for instance. Of course, that would be a bit cliche as I'm sure that theme has been done to death. It would need a great angle. Whatever you do, I think you will have to change your desired POV for the character.
This is only gonna be a short story. Readers will only have to be in his mind for a short time. But the problem I keep getting is making them want to stay in his mind long enough to get to the GOOD BIT at which point they won't mind watching what happens.
It is a sticky area, but people keep saying stuff I write is cliched (at least a bit -- check my other posts!) so I had this idea which isn't, and want to do it!
In there story there is no sexual content, but there is an abduction, which ends well. So whilst in the mind of the paedophile you experience mostly his anticipation, before it all goes wrong for him.
posted
Go watch the movie "M." It's about a child murderer who gets brought down by the criminal underground.
I think this story could work, and while I doubt you can make a reader sympathize him, you can make the reader feel for him. Write it like you wrote the alcoholic story. Create a man who knows what he does is repulsive and terrible, but is at the same time be drawn to it like the alcoholic to the bottle. Not only will this make the reader bleed for the character, it will create tension in the story as the reader wonders whether the character will gain control of his impulses. That's my opinion anyway.
posted
I remember an episode of MASH in which Hawkeye Pierce had disturbing dreams about a woman killing a chicken. Only later after talking to the psychiatrist character, he realized it was a repressed experience in which a woman in his presence smothered her child rather than allowing the crying to betray the group's hiding place to enemy soldiers. (My memory might not serve exactly, here.)
So . . . there is a point . . . an altered viewpoint could be used by the antagonist through most of the story, for the sake of the reader. Towards the conclusion, the alteration would be revealed to provide the desired gravity to the story. The altered viewpoint could have occurred because of the antag's choice/convenience or mental illness.
posted
Speaking as a parent, I can say that there is no way I could identify with this character, no matter how well you wrote them. OSC says everything in writing has a cost--the cost of writing a story around a character like that is that a healthy chunk of people will be turned off instantly.
Posts: 683 | Registered: Oct 2004
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posted
I can sympathize with an alcoholic. I can't sympathize with a pedophile. The market for such a work would be incredibly small. Sure, there are books like Lolita, but how many? How often do you see movies about someone that has a sexual affair with a minor? They're usually B-movies or Indy flicks that might gain praise or controversy at Sundance. But you won't see it in mainstream or anywhere close. The most notable example of a man trying to have a relationship with a minor was American Beauty, but the MC there didn't actually go through with anything, and it was more the young woman that instigated the relationship. And the MC died in the end. That always helps.
As was said previously, there is a cost to what you do. The pedophile POV is a huge cost, one that might be too high.
quote: feel society is disproportionately reactionary regarding paedophiles...
Funny, my sense of society is that they are disproportionately passive regarding pedophiles.
quote:Finally, what if his crime was against someone slightly older (say, 14, rather than 4)? This would make him less immediately repugnant. In fact, there are circumstances where this happens all the time, and there is a big difference between these people and 'real' paedophiles.
Baduizt, what planet are YOU from? You say your mom works with pedophiles and thus you seem to have developed some sense of empathy for these folk, but have you ever known someone who was molested as a child? I have, and it isn't pretty.
Survivors of childhood sexual abuse have a suicide rate of about 70%. The act of molesting someone who isn't physically, mentally, or emotionally receptive and prepared for the act is a soul-killer. The damage done by pedophiles and rapists is enormous. You cannot overestimate the absolute sense of annihialation of self this act of violence does.
I have worked in violence prevention myself, and have done my time in the trenches with homeless agencies... (don't confuse the homeless with rapists and molesters, please. Like the vast majority of the population they are most often neither.) I can have empathy with molesters from the standpoint that they have an illness that thus far society and therapists little understand and have little success with.
But never EVER believe that molestation does no damage to a 14 year old, and that someone who molests a 14 year old isn't a real pedophile. There are plenty of adult survivors living broken lives who will tell you different.
Now that I'm done with my tirade, I'll let skadder know my opinion from a writing standpoint. If your purpose is to fulfill an inner itch to write a particular story, then write it, with the protagonist/antagonist cast however you deem necessary. But if your purpose is to ultimately sell stories, you might put your efforts into something else. Publishers aren't often willing to invest in the cost of publishing a book that has a MC whom 99.9% of the population would find abhorant.
[This message has been edited by Elan (edited October 31, 2007).]
posted
I would like to underline that the story I wish to write is in no way sympathetic or empathetic towards the paedophile in the story. The paedophile suffers an awful death before he is able to harm or molest the child he has abducted.
My thought is that I have read stories where the POV is the killer's, and the like, and that seems to work. For my story to work the POV needs to be the paedophile's. I guess the consensus is that it won't work. In which case, I will increase the victims age to 18 so it's a more straightforward. The problem remains...any ideas on how to keep the reader engaged with a POV of someone who is awful?
posted
The point here isn't whether pedophiles are terrible people, it's whether one can write a story from POV of a pedophile and not frighten away the reader. The answer is that it can be done. It has been done before, and it will be done again. OSC did it. I forget what the story was called, but it involved freaky tentacled babies. The reader feels for the man, even though he is painted as a terrible person. Stephen King has a story where a man abducts a child who turns out to be a vampire. There are countless MC's who are despicable people. And in a short story, it will be even easier to pull off, because you're not asking that much commitment from the reader.
In your case, I imagine that while I would despise the main character (and I still maintain that it would be a good idea to paint the child abuser as an addict), I could still be compelled to read because I'm worrying about his abductee.
Never, never, fail to be true to the story in fear of offending someone.
posted
A pedophile MC can be done and has been done. Lolita's MC is compelling in part because he believes that his attraction toward pre-pubescent girls is a beautiful thing. A psychology professor/therapist at my school mentioned that when he's met with child molesters, a part of them is disgusted with their sexual attraction toward children, yet they still feel the attraction. I think you just need to make the MC compelling; don't let people forget that he's a human being, albeit a disturbed and dangerous one. What makes him tick?
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posted
The POV of any predator is about portraying intelligence and forethought without following normally acceptable 'rules'. True, they can be tormented by the rules, disturbed and overwrought by the rules, but they don't follow them. They have their separate rules that they may or may not understand. To be successful, hunters understand their prey and the rules their prey follows but they don't necessarily understand why they themselves do the things they do. They know they want to do it, but seldom know why.
It would be an interesting story from the bear's POV. I have no doubt J would have killed it if he could. So why did the bear hesitate? Was it out of charity or fear? Maybe it was laziness? I doubt the bear knows. BTW
Some use mixed POV to achieve greater contrast.
[This message has been edited by hoptoad (edited October 31, 2007).]
posted
This is a situation similar to any story where the main character is the evil one. Every time I have seen this discussed, whether it is emperer Ming, Darth Vadar or Adolf Hitler, You know you will never make them loveable to the reader. What you must do, therefore, is to make their actions understandable, believable, Logical. The reader might sympathize with whatever the character is doing even if they don't condone the actions.
For you story, You show how he degrades from liking the look of pretty children, to the point where he becomes excited with them. Since he cannot get close to one on his own, he has to abduct one. If done right, While he might be the most vile person in existance, but the reader would understand his motivations and possibly feel sorry, when he achieves his final demize, that he suffered the consiquences of a series of minor wrong decisions that could have gone another way so easily.
I wish you luck on writing a powerful piece.
edited to add some missing words in a sentance.
[This message has been edited by rstegman (edited November 01, 2007).]
posted
I think the story could work, but you identified the problem you're likely to have which is getting a reader to stick around AND not be offended long enough to see what you are doing. Not long ago, I critted a story that was (in an ancient historical context) about someone who raped male prisoners taken in a war. Now it was something that would not have been considered reprehensible at the time. BUT I felt that the author was presenting it as sexual tittillation. What can I say? I shouldn't have critted it because I ripped him a new one. (That is one form of erotica that kind of makes me throw up--no surprise to those of you who have an idea of my attitudes. LOL)
I'm not saying you would do that, but it will take a lot of care of presentation in not offending or driving away readers. If you can pull it off, it could be an interesting story though.
Edit: Removing edit... too off topic. [This message has been edited by JeanneT (edited November 01, 2007).]
[This message has been edited by JeanneT (edited November 01, 2007).]
I think the strategy I may to go for is keep the POV as the paedophile's, but keep the penetration light. I will try to focus the reader's attention on the child's situation. I may start without explaining the situation so the reader has to guess it's an abduction that is occurring. By the time the reader has guessed the situation I hope they will be involved enough with the girl to want to read to the end, plus by that time they should suspect (because of the use of subtle clues) that the situation may not be quite what the paedophile imagined. At that point I can go deeper into the paedophile's thoughts as he see's it all go horribly wrong for him.
posted
Evidently the word is pronounced differently the other side of the Atlantic. On this side, someone's just been convicted for having sex with his bike. No suggestion that he was a paedophile.
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posted
I don't know that this story is best told from the POV you've chosen - you're takign a repugnant character and making us as readers experience things through him. If we feel no sympathy for him, how can we really truly experience the story through his eyes, since he would have some sympathy for his situation/condition/pathology.
However, I have seen a very very powerful movie about a pedophile, told from his perspective, where the story (and hence the viewer) are very sympathetic to him. Do yourself a favor and watch The Woodsman. As abhorrent as the topic is, the movie is moving, powerful, and touching in turns. Roger Ebert had good things to say about it, which led me to watch it when it appeared in a local arthouse theater.
posted
Oh, yes, Eumenides in the n[?]th floor lavatory? The guy is not only a pedaphile, but into incest. It illustrates how everyone is the hero of their own story. He may hate the way he is, but he probably feels he has reasons for being that way. If one just wants to write about a monster judging them, well, I can judge him without reading the book just fine.
I think 70% suicide rate might be a bit of a high number. Is that backwards one way or another? Well, it doesn't make sense the other way either. I don't want to minimize the damage that is done, but I don't think exagerrations help either. Many survivors of abuses apparently don't recall what happened.
Maybe. I'm pretty ambivalent on the whole recovered memory movement as well.
P.S. Man without a Face was a book first.
Also, why is there an exclamation point at the end of this thread title?
[This message has been edited by Tricia V (edited November 01, 2007).]
posted
I have seen The Woodsman and agree with Jayson-Merryfield-Wolfe-boy. It can't hurt to watch it, but rather, there is much to gain.
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quote:Many survivors of abuses apparently don't recall what happened.
I find this comment interesting. What do you mean by many? 1%... 25%... 95%? And where does this information come from?
I have read of cases of children as young as a few days old being sexually abused, so I suppose at least some wouldn't remember. But does the victim not remembering make having been victimized and abused as a child less harmful or less horrendous an act?
Just a few questions and thoughts your comment raised in my mind.
posted
I think there are a number of challenges with this concept, especially if you want to avoid cliche.
If readers aren't going to mind watching the paedophile suffer an awful death, then they can't have any sympathy for him. (I'm assuming this is a male paedophile, sorry if that's incorrect.) To me that means that either we have to see him do (or imagine) something vile (no thanks) or he has to be demonized: I think demonization of paedophiles is a cliche which gets in the way of understanding how to deal with them.
If the paedophile is going to suffer an awful death how can we see it if we're in his POV?
If the story proposes that the answer to paedophilia is murder or manslaughter, not justice and treatment, there are moral issues - and this could be cliche.
If the child causes or witnesses his death, one terrible scar (the memory of being molested) is replaced by another, and for me that would still be an unsatisfactory resolution. I doubt I would regard his death as 'the good bit' because I believe in justice, not revenge and lynch law. (If he dies by accident or by his own hand, that might be different.)
If there's no serious attempt to portray the paedophile authentically (which might involve doing some quite nauseous research) the story may appear to be sensationalizing serious issues or capitalizing on other people's pain.
And finally, would it matter if paedophiles enjoyed the story for reasons different from the rest of us?
Pat
[This message has been edited by TaleSpinner (edited November 02, 2007).]
posted
Why not tell it from two POVs? The girl first to draw the reader in, and then you don't need to make the antagonist sympathetic. Maybe can't do 2 POVs ... I'm not experienced enough with short stories to judge.
Another angle is to provide a flashback to the antogonist's childhood -- I've read that such folk will perpetuate the abuse that's been done to them (i.e. most abusers were themselves abused). Self-hate, a sense of helplessness as he considers doing harm. That could create some understanding in the reader's mind. Personally I'd rather see him caught or commit suicide than be killed. But hey, its your story.
quote:And finally, would it matter if paedophiles enjoyed the story for reasons different from the rest of us?
Are you suggesting that the story will attract paedophiles, who will get some enjoyment from the abduction bit...and mentally stick a different ending on it?
Mmmm. Not sure, perhaps it will. Does that mean I shouldn't write it? We often write about killing -- I am sure murderers read these things too. Catcher In The Rye was found in the bedrooms of some famous killers -- or is that an unrban myth?
Re: Two POV's. I can't do the girl's POV for a few reasons -- it has to be his.
Actually, I have just had a thought...I can solve the problem by having the paedophile kidnap TWO girls, and do the POV from one of the girls. I'll have to think on that idea.
[This message has been edited by skadder (edited November 02, 2007).]
quote:I have read of cases of children as young as a few days old being sexually abused . . .
Oh my God! I hope not many. That may be the most repulsively barbaric thing I've ever heard of!
I agree with Zero. In fact, just reading that made me sick. Grrr. . . . I have two babies and just the fact that it is even thinkable to someone, no matter how infrequent the cases of it are, is enough to make me want to lock myself and my kids in the house and not come out.
posted
I can take some comfort, however, in my strong belief that our mutual reaction is shared by the vast, vast, vast majority of people out there. At least, I certainly hope so.
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posted
Go out and get the movie Little Children. It uses a pedophile as one of its main characters, and it does make you feel for sorry for him (or at least I did).
One way it does this is by classifying his problems as a "physco-sexual disorder", that he is very upset and disgusted by.
posted
"Are you suggesting that the story will attract paedophiles, who will get some enjoyment from the abduction bit...and mentally stick a different ending on it?
Mmmm. Not sure, perhaps it will. Does that mean I shouldn't write it? We often write about killing ..."
Yes, that was the suggestion. No, that does not mean you should not write it, but I do think it's a point worth bearing in mind.
I'm planning to write something soon on cyber-crime, about which I happen to know a thing or two. I'll be careful to only write about things that are either in the public domain or easy to figure out. I shall avoid more arcane ideas because I, personally, would hate for someone to use an original idea of mine in a successful crime. I understand it would be their responsibility not mine, but I'd still feel bad to have put the idea in their head.
quote:Tricia V. said: "Many survivors of abuses apparently don't recall what happened."
JeanneT said: "I find this comment interesting. What do you mean by many? 1%... 25%... 95%? And where does this information come from?"
The loss of memory experienced by sexual abuse survivors is called Post Traumatic Stress Disorder, or PTSD. PTSD can be experienced by soldiers, cops, traffic crash and accident victims, victims of domestic violence, incest victims. In short, if you've had a horrific experience, and I'm talking a sense of horror that goes beyond the normal fear levels we've all learned to cope with, you may experience PTSD. It is a mental survival tactic to help your mind cope, that is automatic... similar to the rush of adrenaline when we are frightened. Unlike a rush of adrenaline, it does not necessarily go away when the episode is over.
PTSD is one of those after-shock effects of incest and sexual abuse that can go on for decades after the abuse. I know two women I went to high school, both of whom suffered abuse at home as teens, and neither one of them remember hardly anything about their high school years.
RAINN Network says: "While there are no reliable annual surveys of sexual assaults on children, the Justice Department has estimated that one of six victims are under age 12."
Tricia asked where I got the statistic about 70% suicide rates for incest survivors...I don't own the book, so I can't cite the source. I can tell you I read it in a book written to help abuse survivors when I was trying to educate myself about the issue to help my friend during the darkest times of her therapy. I have no doubt about the rate, because I've seen how deep the wounding is. The number stunned me at the time, which is why I remembered it.
posted
i would just like to object to that slanderous house comment! I personally find him very likeable, just a total jerk.
and anyway, when did house abuse anyone? (unless you count his employees, his patients, the patients loved ones, that dumb dog, his boss, and pretty much anyone he meets.)
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