Specifically, though, I'm not really talking about so-called vanity presses, what I'm really thinking about is how it could shape the future of the publishing industry. Think about it: for any author, a publisher will print a certain amount of books in a first run. When those run out, they print another and another and so on. Eventually they'll have to many and will either have to sell for a loss or just throw them away. This is especially important to new writers because an initial print run of 6,000 has every chance of only selling ten copies. Then the publisher has to buy back the books from the stores (such as Barnes and Nobles and Borders) and just eat the loss. I can understand from that point of view why publishers are hesitant to publish new writers.

Now, the way internet like Amazon can work is for someone to buy a book, they print it then send it out. The buyer wouldn't notice the difference because they have to wait on shipping anyway. This way the publisher doesn't print any extra books. They save money by not having to print books that might not sell. In the end, they may be able to publish more authors and more new authors because the risk is lower.

The hindrance to this are the brick and mortar sellers (Barnes and Nobles, Borders, even Wal-Mart). They still need a book to put on the shelf. A book that may or may not sell. Even if they had the capability to print the book in house in a few hours, people still wouldn't wait. But are brick and mortar booksellers on the way out? Are websites like Amazon the future, or will people still want to go to the store to choose their books?

I only buy online if it's a book I already know I want and that the brick and mortar stores are lagging behind on getting in. Even ordering books, I tend to go to the real stores rather than use the internet.

I think people tend to think it's an either/or situation. Either you print on-demand with a waiting period, or you print some up and have them sitting. Both ideas use old publishing methods. However, the technology exists so that the following scenario is completely possible:

You approach a kiosk in the bookstore and use the touch screen. You select the book you'd like to purchase, swipe your credit card, and it says "please wait while we print and bind your book..."

A couple minutes later, plop! Out drops your very own copy of said book.

Now, do readers want this? Probably, if it brought book costs down (which in theory it should because of the lack of waste). It should highly appeal to those concerned with the effect of the current wastes (say on the environment or the industry, etc). It appeals to the bookstores because they don't have to keep bookshelves and back rooms full of the extra books. They just print one copy of each and shelve it (for pre-purchase browsing).

Who wouldn't want this wonderful advancement?

Publishers. That's my hunch, actually. Why -- I don't know. But we've seen the movie studios drag their heels about movies on-demand, the music industry drag its feet about downloadable music tracks. I think these industries must be saturated with old dogs who just don't want to learn the new tricks.

Have you noticed what the band Barenaked Ladies has done? (For those who don't know them, they are not actually naked, nor are they ladies for that matter.) They didn't re-sign when their contract came due, and started marketing themselves directly to the fans. They rethought the music model. They started doing fan cruises -- where they and 1,000 of their biggest fans take a week-long cruise together. How cool is that? What music industry publicist would have come up with that? It's not in the handbook. But BNL now makes more money than they did under the industry's thumb.

My guess is, only the authors will be able to revolutionize publishing. I'm tempted, very tempted to be one that does. Too bad I can't give myself an advance to fund the first attempt.

One of the main advantages of a publishing house is their ability to distribute to the largest book sellers. Sites such as Amazon (and even the on line versions of B&N) are making distribution a moot point. A site like Amazon, I think, would much rather have a POD system because they no longer have to have warehouses to store inventory.

What's becoming increasingly important is marketing. Few people I know actually browse on Amazon, and in fact, nothing beats a bookstore for browsing. Rather, they're searching for an existing book. How do they find out about these books? Through friends, best seller lists, book reviews, etc, or because the reader already has experience with a particular author.

Frankly, I'm pretty excited about this. It means less overhead, less risk, fewer dead trees, and possibly a more accessible process. It might spell the end of the traditional bookstore, but maybe not. What if a bookstore held only display copies, and you could browse, then order the book if you liked it?

Browsing in the bookstore is one of my favorites. Buying something I checked out of the library and decided that I had to own is another.

But reviews from sources you trust? Friends' recommendations?

Other than authors I know and still trust (that hinges on their last few novels being good in my opinion) how would people find out about books they want and are willing to risk money buying?

Overall it has been a decent experience. The quality, as annepin said, is not as nice, but it's by no means ugly. The paper is almost like regular copy paper. The book cover is bland (because I didn't design anything more).

But it sells slowly. I do some of my own marketing and others stumble across it. It's about learning a certain language in a new way.

I agree it will be far more dominant in the future, even if only for the fact that there aren't a spare 50,000 sitting in some warehouse.

I paid $1,000 for the deluxe package (4 years ago) and that included them taking care of everything including distribution to all the major online stores and possibly to some physical stores if it sells a certain amount.

One bad side is no one checked me on it. I could write a fiction story that is simply garbage, get tired of it being rejected by editors who likely know more than me, and publish it myself. So yes it could cause a "flood of fiction".

I would like to see some mix of editorial review and then POD in a store. Perhaps it would be like a video store where there is one copy as a sample and then when you want it they print it on the spot for you. I personally don't need books to look perfect as long as I can read them.

But furthermore, everyone can keep a list of books they're reading, music they're listening to, on their facebook or myspace page. There are also social networking sites specifically dedicated to the readers - one I know of is called Shelfari but there are others. I have found several cases in the last year or two of a friend liking many of the same books I like. I hadn't previously compared reading preferences with some of these friends, or with newer friends. So upon seeing the overlap between favorite books of ours, I then search within the friend's other favorites or wishlist items and find new books I might be interested in. This has happened to me numerous times when shopping for people via Amazon wishlists. I end up adding half their contents to my own wishlist, which would explain why it's 4 pages long by now. LOL

Anyway - that's what's happening with one corner of the online marketing world. The buzz factor is changing. It used to be that only blockbusters could make their way to the front, but look at what's happening with online music.

Heck, if anyone recalls Beck's last album release, he let you choose your own jacket design, etc. It shouldn't be a stretch to expect that soon we'll be able to not only choose our book and have it printed on-demand, but we'll also be able to test out different page sizes, font faces, cover illustrations, etc, and make the book really our own with no more cost or effort.

I'm not published (yet) so I don't have any real insight into the industry, but my gut tells me that publishers would be most concerned about finding and retaining quality authors. Any old Joe would be able to convincingly argue that his unpolished WIP should be published tomorrow for little up-front cost (just server space, basically) and that he is willing to accept payment on a per-copy-sold basis.

Also, if you're buying from a kiosk in B&N et al, I would think the publisher would lose alot of clout on the retail end. No longer would a few publishers known for stuff that sells have a competitive advantage over individuals or less mainstream names when it comes to getting books onto a shelf. For literally chump change, anyone could buy server space on the kiosks and hope to make up the costs by selling their stuff. Sure, the publishing houses could probably pay to get your book ranked more highly, listed sooner, etc, just like with alot of websites, but the market would flood, no question.

There are no longer brick and mortar music shops, they are merged into big box retail or ancillary products in other media outlets. The few specialty shops are slowly dying as well.

I feel strongly that within the next 10 years you will see a similar shift in DVD and Video Gaming, and within the next 15 years booksellers will probably follow.

I do think there will still be some niche markets for these products in "physical" form, like the kiosk POD type setup, but retailing information is a dying brick and mortar industry.

As technology infiltrates into the masses and the ability to harness digital formats becomes easier and easier you will see these business die or evolve in interesting ways.

I work for Blockbuster and though I think the brick and mortar aspect in doomed in my lifetime I can see interesting areas they can pursue to be market dominant in the near future and they have the capitol to adopt new technologies and exploit them as they are revealed.

In closing...brick and mortar bookstores days are numbered and because of there rooting in physical items and not showing much innovation, to me anyway, of exploiting new technologies, I suspect they will be gone in the next 20 years.

I can certainly envision a time when screens have such fine fidelity, so little glare, and such marvelous portability/accessibility that people will prefer them to clunky, flimsy, or otherwise inconvenient stacks of paper bound together at the ends.

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You approach a kiosk in the bookstore and use the touch screen. You select the book you'd like to purchase, swipe your credit card, and it says "please wait while we print and bind your book..."

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if it brought book costs down (which in theory it should because of the lack of waste).

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Even ordering books, I tend to go to the real stores rather than use the internet.

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On the other hand, POD could mean a flood of fiction, bad and good, in which case marketing, and getting the right reviews, is going to be that much more important.

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As someone was asking somewhere here earlier, HOW do you choose books to buy?

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One bad thing about POD publishing, at least in the sense of publishing your fiction book, is that once you publish it yourself, many publishers won't even consider looking at it.

I thought it might be possible to publish something and then when sales were going strong, have a publisher buy it. But most that I have read/talked to said once you publish it on your own that's it. They won't have anything to do with it. Unless, of course, it starts selling millions.

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Christoper Paolini, as much as I dislike his writing, is a marketing wiz. He took a crappy book, self-published, marketed it to the point that it sold enough copies to be picked up by a major publisher.

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This is a drawback of do-it-yourself POD. You're completely on your own. You have to make sure you take care of editing and marketing and if its a bust, you're out of luck. There are POD services that cost $0 to start. They only take a cut from a sold book. And that follows a rule of publishing: money flows to the author.

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Whoa. Let's stop here. PoD is NOT the same thing as self-publishing or vanity publishing.

Many "traditional" publishers--that is royalty paying publishers--are PoD. And on top of it not all vanity or self-publishing is done PoD although some is.

So do not make the mistake of thinking that is the case. I believe Samhain does PoD as does Ellora's Cave or at least they started that way.

PoD is a TECHNOLOGY not a type of publisher.

Now there are several issues with royalty-paying publishers who do PoD. Many brick and mortar stores will not stock PoD books simply because there is a history of PoD publishers not giving as large a discount and not accepting returns. While that is no longer true with all PoD publishers, it has left a problem with marketing. And you HAVE to have books in brick and mortar stores to market as successfully as the traditional model.

Another problem is that PoD books cost more per book than traditional offset printing. So if you are going to have a large print run, you'd be rather dumb to do it with PoD. The assumption has to be that if you are printing PoD, you don't expect large sales.

What has happened with the small/micro presses, is that many of them start with epublishing and add PoD as they grow. If they continue to grow, of course, they switch to traditional printing.

Some of these publishers do a very good job. Ellora's Cave, for instance, has done extremely well. The same with Samhain. Some of these, because they have a business model that is based on epublishing, will accept work that the large publishing houses won't touch. They will consider a short novel/novella or erotica when the traditional ones won't, for instance. And they tend to be more open to working with new writers, because the cost of putting the work out is lower, so the risks are smaller.

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Christoper Paolini, as much as I dislike his writing, is a marketing wiz. He took a crappy book, self-published, marketed it to the point that it sold enough copies to be picked up by a major publisher.

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Whether it is Paolini is the marketing whiz or his parents are is open to question though. It was his parents who bankrolled the venture.

Unless PoD becomes more cost effecient than traditional printing, it will not be adopted by the large houses. However, I repeat PoD is a technology. It has nothing to do with whether one is self-publishing or not.

[This message has been edited by JeanneT (edited November 14, 2007).]

[This message has been edited by JeanneT (edited November 14, 2007).]

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Whether it is Paolini is the marketing whiz or his parents are is open to question though. It was his parents who bankrolled the venture.

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Double Dragon Press. http://www.double-dragon-ebooks.com/ I almost forgot about them. I know two authors who say they are quite happy with them.

Oops, I forgot about Mundania Press. http://www.mundania.com/ I am pretty sure that is the one that Piers Anthony has published with.

Those are all the ones I know anything about although there may well be others out there worth looking at. By the way, Piers Anthony has a list of epubs on his website that you might want to take a look at if you decide to go that route with some of your work.

And, of course, deciding to submit to an epub/pod does not mean you have to go the same way with other novels.

Edit: Let me say this, I spend a lot of time talking with and trading emails with various other authors. I have tried hard to educate myself on the publishing business. I never mean to come across as some kind of know-it-all. I don't know anywhere near all there is to know about publishing. But I'm learning, and I do enjoy sharing what I learn.

[This message has been edited by JeanneT (edited November 14, 2007).]

I have seen a few self-published items, over the years...none of them really "caught my interest" the way professionally published stuff does...on the other hand, I'm older, and less easily "caught" by fiction. (Non-fiction seems to have a better shot with me lately.)

You are apparently saying that Strange Horizons or Oscar Scott Card's Intergalatic Medicine Show aren't legitimate because they are online. Pardon me, but they both publish some of the best of the speculative short fiction, including award winning shorts.

In the case of book publishers, PoD is printed (Print on Demand pretty much implies that) although many book publishers do both PoD and electronic.

On the otherhand, if you don't want to submit to them, that's your individual choice. No one is arguing with you to get you to do so.

And if you somehow think that putting fiction up on your own site is more prestigious than having it in an ezine run by Mr. Card (if it were accepted there), while my opinion would be quite the opposite, again that is your choice. And publishing fan fiction is more desirable? I beg your pardon?

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Is the couple minute turn around time feasible? If it is, then that's very cool. Last I heard, though, the best time would be a two hour wait, though technology is always changing.

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http://money.cnn.com/magazines/fsb/fsb_archive/2006/12/01/8395114/index.htm

Seven minutes, it says. That was last year I don't know if it worked out.

I think it's quite cool, just imagine books never going out of print. That way if you find some 60 year old Book 2 at a library discard sale (which is where I get a large amount of books) and love it then you can just go to the store and get Book 1 et al. I like the "Display Only" idea though, I rarely buy a book that I haven't cracked, and no, reading the first chapter online doesn't do it for me. I have to open randomly and read a few pages to decide if it has some worth to me. (If I happen on the one slow part of the book, my loss.)
I don't think this will stop the big presses though, there will probably still be large first print runs. And big release events.

You are the one who is saying that only one type of media can have good publications, not me. And how the internet can "clutter" the desk of a print publisher (what I assume you mean by a "regular magazine") escapes me.

Edit: This is a different subject however from PoD book publishing which has nothing to do with the internet at all.

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With an infinite print run they would be worth the paper they're printed on.

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I did a little research on the article Pyre Dynasty linked and found the company responsible. They're at OnDemandBooks.com and they've deployed two of these book "vending machines". One at the World Bank Info Shop in DC, the other at the Library of Alexandria in Egypt.

From the website it seems it would take 3-4 minutes to print one book. The cost of these machines is $50,000, so I don't really see them working at the mall, but maybe a Barnes and Nobles. The site says the machine can take multiple orders at one time and can print as many as 1 book per minute.

edit: Sorry I couldn't make the link work!

[This message has been edited by skadder (edited November 16, 2007).]

(At least one company will offer an LCD-looking, low-cost computer monitor that is actually based on color e-paper.)

My comment about the value of the book was from the first edition and such point of view. Not that that is the most important thing in the world. I'm just a collector.

No one has said you have to submit to it. But your constant put-downs of the people who submit to such publications are getting on my nerves.

I tell you what. Submit some pieces of dreck to Strange Horizons, Oscar Scott Card's Intergalactic Medicine Show, Clarkesworld Magazine, and Coyote Wild and show us how low their goal post is. HAH!

You might start a new thread though since PoD (which is the topic of this thread) has NOTHING to do with on-line publications.

PoD means print on demand and is a PRINT technology. By definition it cannot be used by solely electronic publications.

Edit: And when it comes to epubbing of books, publishers like Samhain and Ellora's Cave are swamped with submissions. They can afford to be picky. Nobody minds if you hate them, Robert, but you are doing yourself and no one else a favor by posting mis-information.

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Sorry I can't offer either. Mine went into my compost pile.

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And can we have just one thread that doesn't bring up Eragon? You really give him more attention then he deserves.

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My problem with e-books is I don't like reading too much from a computer screen. It's the same reason I have a hard time watching TV online. I don't want to be stuck at my desk doing that.

Here's another which includes a piece on the "Expresso Book Machine":

http://www.redferret.net/?p=7594

If there were one of these in every branch of Borders or Waterstones it'd be like the supermarkets with their in-store bakeries, decent fresh food for the mind on demand.

I see no losers in such a scenario.

Publishers would be able to keep backlists in print for longer -- forever -- and make more money for themselves and authors.

Booksellers could stock more books (entire catalogues) with minimal shelfspace and stockroom costs.

Libraries and academic institutions could print short-runs more economically.

Less diesel would be burned transporting books, and there'd be zero recycling (pulping) costs for books that don't sell.

And for the consumer, a real paper book -- that has not been thumbed by others.

As RMatthewWare says, there only seem to be a couple of machines out there at the moment, one at the World Bank Info Shop in DC, the other at the Library of Alexandria in Egypt. I thought the latter had gotten itself destroyed several centuries ago, but apparently they've built another one -- now that's class!

I imagine there are some challenges to overcome:

1. Persuading booksellers to invest in the machines.

2. Persuading publishers to allow their books to be printed.

3. Arranging sales transactions so that both booksellers, publishers and authors get revenues proportional to book sales (Not difficult technically but everyone will want to negotiate their share of the new pie: look at the mess the film industry has gotten into with scriptwriters and DVD sales.)

4. Making the system secure such that publishers are confident their intellectual property won't find its way onto the internet. This won't be easy, methinks.

I imagine it will happen sooner or later. I think it will be delightful to be able to walk into a bookshop, browse, and buy any book in publishing history.

PoD is a technology that is used as often by royalty-paying companies as vanity. And vanity presses often use offset. They existed far before PoD technology did.

LOL Now I won't argue with you further. I wouldn't want to disturb you with facts.

And if having a story on-line is so horrible and UNPROFESSIONAL, I suggest you tell this to Theodora Goss. It was her "Pip and the Fairies" that was published by Strange Horizons and was nominated for the 2007 Nebula Award. Tsk. How unprofessional of her and I'm sure everyone out there considers it the equivalent of cheap fanfic.

My last comment on this subject.

Edit: Now you are welcome to continue believing what you please. I honestly am not concerned about your personal beliefs or where you decide to never submit your writing. I am concerned about your telling other people things which are simply not correct. There comes a time, however, when it degenerates to pointless arguing. I think that time has come.

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And for the consumer, a real paper book -- that has not been thumbed by others.

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Not to mention resale possibilities.

Obviously a royalty-paying publishing company such as Samhain or Swimming Kangaroo doesn't use a self-publisher. They do their own printing. But it simply costs more per unit to print PoD than it does offset.

There are other issues involved as well. You will find a number of them discussed on Piers Anthony's website. He has long been involved in PoD and electronic publishing.

I honestly don't think we'll see PoD/epub making big changes in the book publishing industry any time in the near future. While some of the royalty-paying companies are doing well, even more have gone bankrupt. It is a difficult and bumpy road.

*****

To your five factors, add: they don't sell in large numbers.

Oh to be a student again,
Pat