But there IS the issue of chapters. Now am I alone in writing in chapters? When I start a novel, I make a folder, usually titled NOvel until I figure out what the title is and in that I put in 30 chapter folders and a snippet folder and a notes folder and a worldbuilding folder. (You'd think I was organized but don't let this fool you.)

Then after making my worldbuilding notes and kind of figuring out what the ending will be I start writing chapter one. When I think I've come to the end of chapter 1, I go to my next folder and write chapter 2.

Very straightforward. But then when I start editing I always discover that "OMGZ! I left out such and such subplot that I didn't even know about at the time and that should be Ch 4. But I already have a Chapter 4. So now I have to Renumber all my chapters but in the middle I probably get confused and re-number them wrong. *gets a headache just thinking about it*

So.... how do you guys handle organizing your novels?

http://www.ravensheadservices.com/

(a free demo to try it)

I write the actual stuff in Word and then file it in chunks of 10,000 words.

For example, you could create a "style" called "Chapter Heading" and give it a bold or underlined font, centered, more than double line spacing, and an automatic chapter number. If you were patient enough you could make it throw a page before the chapter heading.

Section breaks enable you to restart page numbers. For example you could have a section for the prologue numbered with lower case Roman numerals, chapters with pages numbered from one, and an appendix which again starts from page one.

If you do all that and want a table of contents with chapter names and page numbers, you can do it using "Insert-Reference-index_and_tables". Nailing jelly to the wall is often easier.

Using such features in Word requires either infinite patience or a good geek as a best friend. In my experience Word is best for documents that start at page one and don't go on for too long. I have made it do fancier things for technical reports, using copious amounts of Assam. You nail it all down in a "Template" and then hope you never, ever have to change it.

You could try hunting through the Templates supplied with Word and bend one that's near what you want into service. Do File-New and then on the pane on the right select Templates-on my computer. (That's Word 2003. For other versions use Help to figure out where they've cleverly hidden the Template feature.)

In the past I've seen technical authors use expensive products like Interleaf partly because they are much better at handling multi-chapter books. In particular they let you put the chapters in separate files and will number everything correctly when you build the book from the files. To insert a chapter, add a file and it all renumbers automagickally.

Word claims to do this with the "Master Document" feature but I have never tried it, on the principle that any new complex software feature will likely break and cause severe headaches.

Yet, building a big book in Word using one file is probably dodgy, I suspect, so trying the Master Doc feature might be the way to go ... alongside a bucket of Assam.

A simple solution might be to give the chapters titles but not numbers, not until it's finished.

I did try NewNovelist and it almost writes the book for you. It's one of those programs that knows about story structures. Its database for characters and locations is great. But printing in a format suitable for submission defeats it :-( So I went back to Word.

Hopefully helpfully,
Pat

What I find more of a problem is editing since I will end up changing chapter numbers and rearranging scenes. I haven't found any good way of doing this.

I've tried a couple of the word processing apps meant for writers but like you, Talespinner, I found that formatting issues and the lack of comments and change tracker made them less than useful.

I'm sure there's a better way than I do it. I just don't know what it is.

I should have said that I suspect one could use Word's 'format paragraph', 'auto-numbering', 'template' and 'master document' features together to automatically number chapter titles, with one chapter in each doc file and simple Courier formatting suitable for submission--but that bashing oneself over the head with a two-by-four would be more fun.

On the one book per file thing, I seem to recall a time when Word would unpredictably collapse given a large file, and it was safer to split a book amongst several files and print them individually--which made page numbering and a table of contents a nightmare. With larger and faster computers these days that might no longer be a problem, but this conservative luddite will not risk it.

quote:

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I came over all geeky...

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Great line.

Well, I save my chapter files forever so if I were to have problems with my big novel file it wouldn't be too bad. However, I haven't had any crashes with Word in years.

Thank heavens for being able to just combine them and use the header to number them. I have enough problems without adding not being able to combine the chapters.

I still haven't figured out a good way of dealing with all of the changes in editing. I suppose one way would be to combine it all into one big file at that point, make a back up (of course I back up to an off-site server every night anyway--you do that, right?) and then make my changes to a complete novel.

Important Note: These steps were written using a particular version of Word 2003 that is not available on the commercial market (no more will be said about that). Some steps may vary from what I have written.

1 - Click on Format in the Toolbar Menu

2 - Click on Bullets and Numbering, the Bullets and Numbering Dialogue Box should appear

Note: yes, you heard me right. Just follow along and you'll see.

3 - Click on the Outline Numbered tab in the Bullets and Numbering Dialogue Box

4 - Click on the lower-right template. It should include chapters in the preview. This should be the eighth of eight preview panes. (Do not click OK yet.)

Note: The default setup is not in manuscript format. The "heading" will be in 16-point Arial font. The following steps will correct the format.

5 - Click on the Customize button below the template you just selected (only while the template is selected. You should see a blue outline to indicate it is selected.) You should see a Customized Outline Numbered List dialogue box.

6 - Click on the "Font ..." button. You should see the Font dialogue box.

7 - Select Courier Font, 12-point, Regular (not bolt)

7 - Click OK on the Font dialogue box. You should be back to the Customized Outline Numbered List dialogue box.

8 - Level, Number Format, Number Style, and Start At.... should all be set appropriately now. (The default with this style is to start at Chapter 2. If you want, you can change it to start at chapter 1.)

9 - In the Number Position section (small blue text half way down) set it to Centered, and aligned at the number of inches half way across your page. (Assuming you use standard sized paper with 1 inch margins, set it to Aligned at 3.25).

10 - Click OK on the Customized Outline Numbered List dialogue box.

You should be back to your manuscript now. If you have more dialogue boxes open from these steps, click OK to them now, until you are back in your manuscript.

Edit: Oh, I see. You're talking about having all your chapters in one file, I think.

I don't have all my chapters in one file so that wouldn't work for me, but it might for someone who writes all in one file. so hopefully it will help someone else. The funny thing is that you just posted not to do that.

No, you shouldn't keep all your chapters in one file, but you can keep them in separate files--then when you place them into a master copy, the Chapters will automatically number for you as you put them in. (The insert --> file tip from before works very well.)

It's okay to place all those saved chapters into a master file to print, because you have the individual chapters as a backup. Even if there is damage, it shouldn't be saved in the small ones.

See--a succinct, easy, functional answer to your questions. Maybe next time you could spend less time trying to baste me for helping, and actually listen--or just ask a polite questions if something doesn't make sense. (No, adding smiley faces doesn't make it polite. It comes off condescending when you're acting like that.)

It was intended as friendly sarcasm not criticism. I had absolutely no intention of offending you or of hurting your feelings.

That wasn't quite what I was trying to ask, but it is very helpful information. Thank you for posting it.

I'd ask my Geek-In-Chief (GIC, lol - my brother-in-law) but he abhors MS Word. :P

JeanneT - I write front-to-back, but sometimes I'll go back and insert a clue or a scene or whatever. I've learned to write my chapter headings as "Chapter ___" in stories that get too convoluted so the numbering is driving me nuts (I've been known to insert a whole chapter after the novel's finished in first draft form and I realize I left out some scene I felt was important). Click "insert > break > page break" when you get to the end of a chapter, and no matter what you add from time to time (or subtract), your next chapter will start on a new page.

Then I also do a spreadsheet of chapter wordcount, who's in it, and where it takes place. But when I start making a lot of changes that gets complicated.

I usually end up adding in at least a chapter or two which messes up all my nice organization. Like my current one, I'm going back to add a subplot that will be at least two chapters at different points.

What I was trying to ask--but rambled so much my question was confusing--was if there was a simpler way of chapter organization than each in its own folder. But I just couldn't mix all my chapters together. That would make me crazy--as though I'm not already.

Edit: Lehollis, I am by nature a bit sarcastic, but I know better on the forum. You have no way of knowing if the sarcasm is friendly or not and so it was totally my fault. I just forget sometimes and let my sarcasm slip out. I know you did a lot of work on that response.

As for the fact that it wasn't what I was asking--I was rambling a bit. And your response was helpful anyway.

But probably you have to be as obsessive about chapter organization as i am to understand my problem. If I gave my chapters names other than numbers it might would be easier--but over 30 chapters or so that would get a little confusing knowing my slippery memory. I visualize myself having totally forgotten where chapter Whatsit is supposed to go. lol I'm hopeless.

And JeanneT - maybe you could use a naming convention used in technology all the time.

When you add a chapter between 1 and 2, name it 1.1, or whatever increment you want. If eventually you find yourself adding a chapter between 1.1 and 2, you can call it 1.2, etc.

If you find yourself adding a chapter between 1.2 and 1.3, you can call it 1.21.

Do you see the pattern?

Nice thing about this is, if you number your filenames this way too, they will sort in the proper order when you're sorted by number. It breaks down when you get to 10 and 11 because they sort with 1 (so it ends up going 1, 10, 11, 2, 3)

The way to resolve that pesky problem is to use two digit numbers for everything. 01, 02, 03.

Users of 2007 products can operate in "compatibility mode."
Compatibility mode in the 2007 Office system

I have Word 2003 documents with 120K words with no problem, but I do extensive backups. I had issues with document size back in '97 Word, though.

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...geez, all I do is put it a page break, type Chapter Number, then type the chapter title, skip down about five spaces, then go on from there.

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Ok I don't understand how people can put all their chapter files in one folder. Consider-- say you have 30 chapters in a novel which is pretty average for me. And you do maybe 5 revisions. I'll probably do more, but let's say 5. You end up with at a minimum 150 files in your folder! And I would have queries, synopsis versions, a chapter summery too. I couldn't function with that kind of chaos.

So I do a folder for each chapter within a folder for the novel. But when I start revising if I add a chapter--which I'm about to do and started my whining on the subject lol--that means that most of my folders have to be renamed which is a pain in the a**. And then of course the document names are wrong which is confusing when I combine them since I name the documents with the chapter number.

So revisions are an extra pain like they're not bad enough.

So that's my whine. I was wondering if there was an easier way of arranging chapters within folders but I don't see one.

End of whine.

Edit: I didn't think how I arrange my files was this complicated. I'm not sure if it's really complicated or I'm not explaining it well.

KayTi said: "if you number your filenames this way too, they will sort in the proper order when you're sorted by number."

No, no. I never put all my files in the same folder.

I do use something similar to that naming convention. I use the extensions for revision numbers. Don't you number your revisions? For me chapter one--within the Ch1 folder--starts Ch01.0, then revision 1 is Ch01.1, etc. I couldn't dump all my files in the same folder. That would be too chaotic. Even the thought of hundreds of chapter files in the same folder makes me twitch.

The same convention applies in the folder for Ch2, Ch3, etc, etc. But then at revision I end up adding a NEW Ch4. Now every folder AND every file within every folder above Ch 3 is named WRONG!

I suppose on my next novel I could use Ch01.1.1 so that would allow adding numbers in the second tier extensions for new chapters and using 3rd tier extensions for revisions. Although the third tier wouldn't be needed for folder names. But that seems awfully complicated even for me.

[This message has been edited by JeanneT (edited December 15, 2007).]

Instead of calling them chapter 1, 2, 3, etc, call them chapter 10, 20, 30, etc.

To add a new chapter between 20 and 30, call it chapter 25.

In the manuscripts themselves either leave out the chapter numbers or number them 10, 20, 30, etc.

When it's done, go through once and correct the chapter numbers in the manuscripts, but leave the file and folder names as they are.

Here's another idea, for the folders, which I use in some of my business writing. Version the files as Jeanne does: a novel might be a string of files called chap10.09.doc, chap20.05.doc, chap30.02.doc, etc. (So chapter one is at version 9, chapter two is at version 5, etc.)

Make one folder for the novel and keep all the chapter files in it. Create within that folder another called Archive and keep the old versions of chapter documents in it. Thus when you open the file for the novel you see all the current files in chapter order with their versions, and the previous versions are all in order in the Archive folder.

I keep one working draft. This is one folder. Inside the novel folder, labeled with title and draft N, I have my chapter documents only (no folders). When I want to revise one, I'll rename the master folder as Draft N+1, then create a new folder called "Draft N". I'll copy the chapter, paste into the Draft N folder, and then revise the one in the Draft N+1 folder.

Sometimes I add chapters. I usually just add a letter-- Chapter 25B. I don't bother with renaming the chapters until the very end. And then, yeah, it's a pain, but I try to do it so I only have to do it once.

Alternately, if I'm fiddling with something, I will create a chapter sub folder, with several different drafts. At some point, though, I'll select one revision, add it to the master draft file, and archive the rest.

I keep all my other files--synopses, notes, character sheets, etc, in separate folders.

Edited to add:
If there are only small changes to the chapter, I won't bother with creating a whole new draft folder. I'll just add those to the latest archive draft folder, creating a chapter subfolder within the archives if necessary.

I keep all of my drafts out of the fear (and it has happened) that I might want to go back to a previous draft. And there is the issue of corrupted files. Now that I think of it this is probably why I just don't worry about that much. Obviously a single corrupted file--although I've never had it happen--wouldn't be much of an issue unless it was a first draft and then it would still only be one chapter.

Thanks for all of the suggestions. I'll give them some serious thought. I would like to do something that would simplify the whole process for me. The fact is that the files having the wrong names shouldn't be a big issue except of course that it bothers me.

Edit:

Talespinner said: "In the manuscripts themselves either leave out the chapter numbers or number them 10, 20, 30, etc."

My problem isn't the chapter numbers in the manuscript. My problem is the file names. I like the files to have logical names. I hate the default of using the first words of the file as a file name. I prefer to use what seems to me a more logical file name. (I'm showing waaaayyy too much of what I'm really like here. lol)

Weird bunch of people and I'm among the worst. lol

Archiving drafts might be a solution. Thanks for bringing that up, annepin. As odd as it sounds, I'd never even considered making an archive for my drafts. I feel like I have to keep them, but there really isn't a reason they have to be in the main folder. I could simply make a draft folder to move them into. Then with fairly consistent numbering they would be accessible.

I tried the one-chapter-per-file thing, but couldn't keep up with the chaos. So now I have one folder with three files: one for the draft, one for notes, one for cut material to be used later. (All MS Word)

I separate my chapters with a hard page break, and start halfway down the page. Chapters are named as to what happens: "MC trips in a gopherhole, conks head, has visions." Chapter names are styled Header 1. Chapter numbers come dead last.

The part that keeps me organized is the Table of Contents that I drop on the first page. It picks up the Header 1 styles, and gives me a succinct list of what happens in each chapter, plus the ability to ctrl-click to any chapter header in the text. And the "start halfway down" helps because I keep thumbnails view turned on, and it's easy to see them visually.

(From the MS Word Important Note thread

quote:

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Don't put your novel into one file unless you yearn for the feeling of losing it all, forever.

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I may well add a draft archive folder per annepin's suggestion.

The search results on Google's first few pages were tools, but useful advice began to appear on page five (five!):

Quote from Diane Gaskill

With the file highlighted, in Word, select File -> Open. The Open File dialog box is displayed.

In the lower right corner of the dialog box there is a button that says Open. To the right of the button is a pull down menu. Expand the menu and select Open and Repair.

End quote

More from Diane at:

http://lists.frameusers.com/pipermail/framers/2007-July/008633.html

Quote from Dave Rado and John McGhie at the Word MVP Site:

If you use any of the following features, your documents are likely to corrupt: Master Documents, Nested Tables, Versions, Fast Saves, Document Map, and saving to a floppy. [..]

In addition, saving when resources are low can cause corruptions. If you notice Word start to slow down noticeably it's always best to quit and restart Word immediately ...

End quote

More from Dave and John at:

http://word.mvps.org/FAQs/AppErrors/CorruptDoc.htm

On Word errors in general (I do like how they call them "errors", which is what they are, not "bugs" which is a euphemism) see:

http://word.mvps.org/FAQs/ApplicationErrors.htm

For me, putting a lot in one file is a high risk strategy which sooner or later will almost certainly fail, and force a multi-file approach--so I shall organize that way to start with. When I get to novel length work, that is.

With that, I am going to attempt to switch obssessive geek mode OFF.

Cheers, and thanks for all the sharing,
Pat

Although, to be honest, I only have one novel, it's recently finished, and I have it all in one file because it's only 53k words (YA.) I have various notes documents and whatnot in addition. And, I have NO VAGUE NOTION where the chapter breaks are going to be. It's all from single point of view, so I don't have any natural break between POVs or anything.

HOWEVER, with other work using the file naming scheme I talked about (chapter01.doc) - when I'm versioning, I tag on "v2" - so chapter01.doc becomes chapter01v2.doc, chapter01.01 - newly inserted chapter between chapters one and two, becomes chapter01.01v2.doc and so on.

Sometimes I use underscores because it can be less ugly
chapter01v4.doc
chapter01_01v2.doc
chapter02v3.doc
chapter02_01v2.doc
chapter02_02v5.doc

Although I get your point about not wanting all the files in the same folder, the reason I adopted this schema was because I needed to be able to manage hundreds or thousands of files at once and have them all in the proper order. So, it works if you're combining, but better still - it also works if they are in separate folders.

FWIW, I also have been known to periodically go through and clear out things to an "old versions_XYZ story" folder. I am a digital packrat, I hardly throw anything away (my inbox has over 10,650 items in it right now. A little excessive, I'll admit...) so I always like to hang on to old versions of documents. I have, indeed, gone back to pull parts that I had cut previously.

I have four novels currently on my hard drive--two of them completed and edited and two of them still in rough draft/editing stages. And I'm spinning ideas some of which I've discussed here for a fifth one which is the reason for looking for a better numbering scheme. My current scheme works fine up until revision. So I'll probably adopt one of these suggestions for the next novel. Thanks.

-page break
-centered size 18 font
-write in chapter title
-hit enter twice
-left justify size 12 font
-start writing
-repeat as needed

I honestly don't see the point in bothering with "master templates" and wrestling with formatting things when, honestly, that's all you need. To jump to a chapter, just open the Ctrl-F menu (find) and type in the name of the chapter.

I have a folder for old copies and a folder I keep my most recent copies.

I write everything in one file and then use MS Word's Bookmark feature to jump between chapters (Go to Insert then Bookmark). I used to use OpenOffice, but now I use MS Word because it has the ability to view two pages at once; however, you have to have a large display to make use of that. I've also found that Word runs more quickly and efficiently. However, OpenOffice is open source, meaning that its free - and its hard to beat free.

Edit: The other reason I stopped using OpenOffice as of version 2.3 was because Windows Vista was not compatable. My mouse wheel and keyboard didn't work properly in OO.

quote:

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I write everything in one file and then use MS Word's Bookmark feature

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lehollis gave some advice in a previous thread (didn't make note of which one) that so unnerved me that I copied it and saved it so I wouldn't forget it. (That doesn't mean I didn't misplace it, mind you...

quote:

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lehollis gave some advice in a previous thread (didn't make note of which one) that so unnerved me that I copied it and saved it so I wouldn't forget it.

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It was here:

http://www.hatrack.com/forums/writers/forum/Forum1/HTML/004481.html

quote:

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WORD becomes unstable after 200 pages

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What version of Word do you use? I'm using Office 2003. I wonder if this is still an issue?

At any rate, I have back-ups coming out my ears, so I feel safe. I have 192 pages right now, so if something is going to happen, it'll probably happen soon.