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Zero
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Is there any place I can look to help convert some of my American English into British? You see, I have a character who is British (dialect south east) and I want him to sound British, not American, but as I've never been to Britain he probably sounds very American.

For instance I know what I would call pants is called trousers there, or what I would call fries is called chips, things of that nature. One example, what would you/they call a paper towel?


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extrinsic
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Years ago, we writers had to travel to meet the people and know the voices and places we wished to incorportate into our fictions. The Internet is approaching a level of representation that meets or exceeds what we can experience in person. That unique style of research necessary for achieving authenticity is far easier to find online than travelling the globe and probably more voluminous than needed. There's a site for everything and anything anymore. Try http://www.bl.uk/learning/langlit/sounds/index.html for spoken recordings from United Kingdom regions, written texts, etc. A keyword search on "British accents" got seven million plus hits. Other recommended keywords, British dialect, American British dialect, etc.

I've sensed that British English varies in not only accent, dialect, and diction, but in snytax also.

[This message has been edited by extrinsic (edited August 18, 2008).]


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TaleSpinner
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There's a bunch of stuff (or in British, a load of stuff) here:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_and_British_English_differences

And here:
http://www.effingpot.com/index.shtml

What's tough, in my experience, is turns of phrase. For example, in America, to "table an idea" is to decide to talk about it some other time. In Britain, if you "table an idea" you want to talk about it now.

In an American bar you might say to the barkeep, "I'll take a beer." In a British pub you'd say to the the barman (or barmaid) "I'd like a beer." -- or more likely, "A pint of Pride, please." (Fuller's London Pride is one of our best beers--and you'd send it back if the pint glass was not absolutely full to the brim, that being the traditional measure; it becomes a matter of pride to walk it to the table without spilling a drop.) In Britain you would not tip as heavily as in the USA, and if the service were bad, you would not dare to complain. UK bar conversation would be about the weather, football and cricket--not "the game"--and you'd probably be able to count the number of TVs in the bar on the fingers of one, maybe two hands. Waiter service is less likely in British pubs than American ones.

One way to "tune in" to British ways of speaking and living might be to watch British TV soaps, drama and sitcoms.

Hope this helps,
Pat


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WouldBe
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TaleSpinner forgot to suggest reading Beowulf
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Robert Nowall
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The UK has more regional accents than the United States---a factor of its being much larger than it is now, when a man could only get somewhere by walking (or riding, for the well-to-do).

Keep that in mind when you find and select a particular dialect, whether it be Liverpudlian, Yorkshire, Cockney, BBC Upper Class, or some other whose name I've forgotten.


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TaleSpinner
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It's true there are very many dialects. London alone has several. (I hail from North London, and I can tell someone from South or East London a mile off. Cockneys (who were borne in part of the East End close to Bow) are different again, with their rhyming slang. Curiously, I don't think there's a West London accent or dialect; it's pretty much the same as North London.)

Accents, word choices, slang and turns of phrase vary not only according to geography, but by class. The landed gentry speak quite differently from the hoi polloi. BTW BBC English (the kind of English used by newsreaders) was once rather upper class, but these days it's generally more well-educated-middle class.

Here are a couple of BBC websites that might be helpful. They were available outside the UK and I believe they still are.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/radio4/progs/listenagain.shtml
http://www.bbc.co.uk/bbc7/listenagain/

Radio 4 is the BBC's flagship radio station, broadcasting high quality drama, news, documentaries, discussion and comedy.

Radio 7 specialises in comedy and drama, and re-runs from the last several decades.

On Radio 4 listen to the Today programme to understand the issues of the day, or--when it's on air--the News Quiz to get the satirical version. To hear a variety of regional accents tune in to The Archers, one of the longest-running radio soaps. Radio 4 broadcasts many plays, set in both contemporary and historical times, and their recreations of the ways of speaking of the day will be quite accurate. Try listening to some of the comedy programmes; the English laugh at themselves--and everyone else--very easily.

Oh, and don't forget English understatement:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Understatement

We use understatement, not only for humour, but to be tactful:
http://learnenglish.ecenglish.com/lessons/how-use-understatement

I had to learn not to do it in America, where I was forever being asked to get to the point.

Hope this helps,
Pat

[This message has been edited by TaleSpinner (edited August 18, 2008).]

[This message has been edited by TaleSpinner (edited August 18, 2008).]


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RobertB
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English dialects are dying out slowly, but they're the product of a culture in which people didn't move around much, so one region would be pretty much isolated from the next. When I lived in Cornwall, there was a village (not much of a village actually; a few houses, a church, and a name on the map) a few miles away called London Apprentice. It got its name because in the 19th Century, someone lived there who had been an apprentice in London, and this was sensational.
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Zero
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Thanks everyone. Oh and Talespinner, what would you call a paper towel? Is that still a paper towel?
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TaleSpinner
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Well, I spent so long in America I never know if I'm speaking US or UK English, and I'd have called it a paper towell.

My local supermarket calls it a kitchen towell.
http://www.sainsburys.com/groceries/index.jsp?bmUID=1219159512412

Cheers,
Pat


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extrinsic
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Just don't have a British character refer to the paper towel as a nappy, which is a British term for a diaper. Diaper itself has an etomological origin referencing a pattern of repeated small geometertic shapes. Diaper by that definition also refers to a variety of heraldic marking, sometimes indicating an aristocratic lady's favor of a handkerchief given to a knight entering battle.
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Zero
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I think (when I'm finished - which is in short order) I'd like you chaps from 'cross the pond to please read my short story. Because while it takes place in England, and is about an English person, I think it reads, feels, and sounds decidely American. And I'd like to get it a feel more appropriate/authentic.

Would you be up for that?

about 6,000 words

[This message has been edited by Zero (edited August 19, 2008).]


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kings_falcon
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Other little things matter too.

In America we say: He walked toward her.
In England they say: He walked towards her.

BTW - did you hear Washington, DC is bringing back the old Police Boxes and giving grants to local artist to decorate them. Hopefully, a Dr Who fan will get one to work on.


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Zero
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Would it seem like a stretch for my narrator to be American but my character to be British? So his setting, mannerisms, and language are British English, but the narrator describes them how an American would.
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Doctor
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Interesting.
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Zero
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Um. What's interesting, exactly?
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kings_falcon
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Zero, it wouldn't be a stretch.

In Sophie's Choice the narrator and Sophie were of different national origins.

But I don't think it answers your question. The Brit is still going to talk like a Brit. even if the American hears it slightly different.


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Elan
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One of the best advantages of having a writing group with members on both continents (Europe & the USA) is you learn about English terms that go sideways.

In Australia/UK "I'm going to knock her up" means you are going to knock on the door and pay her a visit.
In the USA "I'm going to knock her up" means you are going to make her pregnant.

I've gotten laughs from my UK friends' writings over this one.

Another one I've noticed in my writings, in the USA we tend to say "she's mad" when we mean "she's angry." My Irish friend says that mostly means "she's crazy" in the UK. They don't generally use it to mean anger.

I hear that the term "bugger" is considered more of a profanity in the UK than it is in the states, as in "That little bugger" which is more thought of as a little pest, a bug so to speak. My understanding is that in the UK the term refers more to ... um... sexual activity.

I attended a church service where the guest speaker, a former Episcopalian minister from England, was talking about his mother, a proper English matron. When his mother was introduced to an American Episcopalian bishop, she liked the man a great deal and said to him, "You are so sweet I could just kiss you on the pecker." She meant on the lips. The word does NOT have the same meaning in the US.

[This message has been edited by Elan (edited August 20, 2008).]


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tnwilz
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True story.

I moved to California from the UK back in 82. A good friend of mine who is an RN in London came to stay with me for a few months. Good lookin fella, 6’2” sandy blonde hair with the obvious English accent. Naturally there were quickly a number of Cali girls in hot pursuit. One evening we were down at the main beach in Laguna and a leggy blonde named Sherri was working hard to impress my friend as my wife and I watched from the sidelines. In those days there were some old half car tire swings set up in the sand. They didn’t look too comfortable but Sherri playfully ran out and jumped on one.
“How are they,” asked my friend.
“Ok, but they do pinch your fanny a bit.”
My friend looked rather shocked for a moment, but being well acquainted with human anatomy, replied, “Oh – well, I imagine it would.”
It took me three minutes to calm down enough from laughing before I could explain to my wife that in England ‘fanny’ is slang for vagina.


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InarticulateBabbler
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What I'd like to know is why bloody is taken as a bad word? I'm on another forum that automatically replaces it with b*****.
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Kathleen Dalton Woodbury
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It's a swear word, roughly equivalent to d*mned. (I inserted that * myself, by the way.)

I've heard that it refers to the blood of Christ, also that it comes from "by Our Lady" (in reference to His mother). I don't know if anyone really knows WHY it's a swear word, though.


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TaleSpinner
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"Ender's Game" is rightly regarded as a bloody good read, but it's a bit of a bugger for the English to get through because the aliens are "Buggers". For some while after first meeting them one wonders whether they are sexual deviants, or somehow silly (we call idiots "daft buggers") or simply fooling around (we tell pranksters to "stop buggering about").

"Bugger" is one of those bloody useful cuss words that can be a verb or a noun. While it's usually used to describe something undesirable or bad, it can also be a term of endearment:

"Sorry dear." He was holding an enormous bunch of lilies, her favourites. "I was a bloody idiot. Kiss and make up?"

"Come 'ere, you daft bugger," she said ...

Pat

P.S. While you wouldn't use "bloody" or "bugger" in front of the Queen, they're comparatively mild swear words.


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RobertB
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That's rather how 'Ender's Game' comes over to me; I keep stopping to think 'Why buggers?' I suppose it's traditional to use derogatory terms for the enemy, but I've never come across anything so explicitly sexual. You wouldn't call the foe 'the Sillies', it doesn't work somehow. What does it mean in the States?

[This message has been edited by RobertB (edited August 20, 2008).]


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extrinsic
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Bugger in American English casual usage just means a trivial little thing, sometimes a slight annoyance, sometimes a useless person. There's bugs in the machine, little buggers that irritate but do little harm, worse than lightning bugs but not as bad as mosquitoes, about like a plague of mayflies. The mischievous little bugger damaged the lawn before departing. Formally, however, bugger means the same thing in American English as it does in British English. Although, bugger all literally means nothing in British.

Then there's spoof, in American English it means a hoax or a parody. In British English slang, the term refers colloquially to an onanistic sexual act.

A flannel in British English is a washcloth. In American English, flannel is a style of cotton fabric--sort of an American tartan-like weave pattern--or a type of longsleeve shirt made of flannel fabric.

The punctuation ending a sentence that's neither interrogatory nor exclamatory is called a full stop in British English and globally by English speaking printers and typesetters. In British English, period commonly refers to a woman's courses.

Hurling is what an American boozer does after a long night of pub crawling or getting plastered. In Ireland, hurling is a sport somewhat like a cross between stickball and lacrosse and the assorted footballs and hockey.

American tic-tac-toe is British naughts and crosses.

Brits queue; Americans stand in or on a line. American students study or review; British students revise.

We speak the same language, don't we? Chalk the variants up to a rugged desire to be individual and fuel for characterizing differences between characters.

[This message has been edited by extrinsic (edited August 20, 2008).]


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TaleSpinner
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quote:
Chalk the variants up to a rugged desire to be individual and fuel for characterizing differences between characters.

Yes, absolutely.

I think RobertB's insight is interesting here. He said, "English dialects are dying out slowly, but they're the product of a culture in which people didn't move around much, so one region would be pretty much isolated from the next."

Here's an example of that: Americans use "gotten" as the past tense version of "to get". They might say, "I've gotten a new bike," while the English would say "I've got a new bike." We used "gotten" in the same way, once, but now we regard it as archaic--or, when Americans use it, quite quaint. Me, I've gotten accustomed to using it and I'm buggered if I'm gonna quit now I'm back in England.

When communities are isolated from one another, if they started with a common language, they diverge, each losing and inventing different words and idioms. I wonder if that will happen less in the English-speaking world as we use the internet (and TV and radio and movies) more and more each day.

Cheers,
Pat


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Robert Nowall
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I read a commentary on the Russian language the other day (in a recent translation of War and Peace), where, apparently, when you're asked, "Did you study in Kiev?" you say, "In Kiev," rather than "Yes I did," as you would in English.

There's a fair amount of that just between American English and British English. (Even some of the things Canadians say can boggle the mind.)

(I'm not an over big fan of British spellings---and I'm an avowed foe when the books they're in were written by Americans. I've lost count of the British-published books I've picked up that change American spellings for no good reason. They're not typos and they're not mistakes. They should be left alone.)


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marchpane
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My boyfriend (from East Sussex, in the south east) calls paper towels kitchen roll. I'm not sure if he has a term for the individual sheets, other than 'a sheet of kitchen roll'. Similarly, toilet paper is loo roll. Oh, and I think what you call Kleenexes we know as tissues... might be wrong there though, I've never been to America, although I have a few American friends.

It's amazing how different two countries speaking the same language can be. As well as the linguistic differences, there are all sort of cultural quirks which apply to one but not the other. That said, both cultures are definitely beginning to merge. There is quite a bit of crossover - you get people saying 'stand in line' here nowadays; also I've seen a lot of American spelling around, and not just in foreign advertisements.

I'd be more than happy to help with any 'translation'. I love this sort of thing! I get a kick out of reading books and seeing if I can work out which Anglophone country the writer's from...


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tchernabyelo
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The main core of linguistic differences between US and UK usage come down to words that needed to be introduced after the the two countries had separated, but before rapid transatlantic communication made propogation of new terms as quick between countries as within them. This is why car parts and terms, in particular, differ so strongly. Many other uses, however, come where a regional UK usage was transported elswhere and retained, while dying out in the original country. And even within the UK, regional varatiations still exist. For instance, the reference to "knocked up" mentioned above - I would have taken it as "pregnant". Certainly where I grew up (the south) knocked up is common slang for pregnant, and I think only in the north would "knock up" be taken for it's more innocent meaning of rousing someone in the morning.


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marchpane
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I too have never heard of 'knock up' meaning anything other than 'pregnant' - that is to say, I haven't heard other meanings in the parts of the country I've lived in/am familiar with. Might have fallen out of use?
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TaleSpinner
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When I was an engineer in England we'd sometimes "knock up" a prototype of a new design in the lab.

A friend of mine went to Canada to lecture at a university, and a student asked if a certain design idea would work. "I dunno," said my friend, "let's knock one up in the lab and see." His suggestion was greeted with a mixture of horror and amusement.

Cheers,
Pat


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Zero
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If I remember correctly, I believe in some of Arthur Doyle's Sherlock Holmes books he uses the expression "knocked up" to mean calling on someone early.

Also, who here is willing to read/translate my story?

marchpane seemed interested, is that true? Anyone else? Talespinner? tnwilz? Other brits/former brits?

It's complete at just over 6,000 words.


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marchpane
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Yep, I'm interested. Should be able to get back to you tomorrow.
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Zero
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OK it's on its way.
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TaleSpinner
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quote:

Also, who here is willing to read/translate my story?

At 6000 words that's a big request, Zero. Read, perhaps; translate, probably not, because it's your story--have the responses and links above not helped you to help yourself? I thought the BBC radio programmes might have been especially helpful.

For the reading, I've made it a rule for myself at Hatrack only to read stories whose first 13 appeal to me. I'd suggest posting its first 13 in F&F and asking for crits from Brits.

Cheers,
Pat


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Zero
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Well I suppose I wasn't really asking you to translate it, I'm still the writer, I just wanted things pointed out like "he wouldn't say that" or "he wouldn't call it that." But I have several readers so don't feel obligated.

I'll post the first 13 and if you're interested let me know.


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Doctor
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What I meant was the differences between English by region is fascinating. Also this link http://www.effingpot.com/index.shtml was both entertaining and interesting.
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