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Hey fellow Hatrack River Runners! Guess I'll jump right in with a newbie intro and topic... I've been working on my first story for eight full years now... book ONE weighs in at a touch over 230,000 words, Fantasy/action/adventure. Books two and three are completed in rough draft. (#'s 4 & 5 still to go) I am currently experiencing the apocalyptic aftermath of a very rough review of a few sample chapters I sent to a 'semi-big-time-writer-dude' (name with held on purpose). He thrashed me pretty soundly about the head and shoulders and then dropped me like an ugly cat.
"...but for me, nothing guts a fantasy more than awkward or inelegant or simply inadequate prose. If I, personally, were publishing your book, I'm afraid I would insist on a stylistic rewrite." This was his 'being nice voice'. No more quotes from him... I promise.
The questions I have come from reading a great deal about style and voice and artistic vitality and the like. When OSCard, in the Writing Lessons, talks about style he describes what I thought I was doing all along. Now I am being told that my stuff doesn't stand a chance because I have not 'fit' into a predetermined way of doing 'it'. I've read mountains of books from almost every genre and I cannot seem to see the staggering disparity between their work and mine. I'm fairly new at this and I know I have much to learn. I would gladly submit samples to this group. I have seen the care you all give to your comments and advice. I am looking forward to being an integral part of this very cool little community. Thanks... Doug
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On the one hand: Publisher A sends Writer X a Form Rejection, or even hate mail, but then Writer X submits to Publisher B and they send Writer X glowing praise, publish his book and want to have his babies. Publishing then, in light of such stories, seems sometimes fickle.
And on the other hand: The more I crit, the more I see inadequacies in my own work. The more I rewrite, the more I see the sometimes (usually) ungainly creativity explosion that I left on the first draft's page as, well, a first draft.
So I guess we just bury our heads in the page, keep submitting (for which purpose, submitting short stories to pro markets may be a valuable litmus test of our writing), and just keep at it.
I figure I have a long, long way to go, and I can't predict how far off my destination is. So I'm just buckling in and enjoying the journey.
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There are, of course, several disparate wisdoms regarding a story's voice in the vein of stylistic choices, conventions, and heresies. I've noted of late that the heresies are more welcome in their relevant eras than the conventions of the times. Yesteryear's heresies are next year's conventions.
However, a conventional wisdom is for late breaking writers to write within the conventional traditions of a genre before breaking new ground. But wouldn't that lead to getting stuck in a groove? Same voices, same themes, same motifs, same storylines, same complications and turns and resolutions and outcomes, a story's got to give in at least one of them, all of them ideally, in order to surpass what's getting published by accomplished authors.
In one outlook, it's quite possible that a lot of really great stories aren't making it into the pipeline because of overly treated or indifferent critiques spoiling genuinely creative artists' experiences.
Finding a voice and mastering it is a part of a writer's talent that can't be taught. The study of rhetoric's schemes and tropes goes a long way toward naming the devices of voice that can be learned and mastered. Power in names, power to own their meanings and master their applications.
For a comprehensible and comprehensive introduction to the art of Rhetoric, otherwise known as the art of persuasion, I recommend Silva Rhetoricae compiled by Professor Gideon Burton and hosted by Brigham Young University.
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Yes, yes... I keep my head in the page. I absolutely love the act of writing, published or not. Stories and unknown people are standing around in my head patiently waiting for birth.
extrinsic... the 'Rhetoric link' has been dutifully logged into my favorites. Much to learn there.
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First, let the critique cool off and see if it has any legs. Really. As writers, we tend to be harsh critics and a little defensive. However, a writer is just a person, too. We make mistakes, or have nits we can't get beyond. Take what you deem right from the critique and apply it--anything else you can ignore. You have the power.
As for reading oublished authors of all genres... Well, you haven't been published and can't accurately compare. Plus, some genres expect different treatments than others. Mysteries have to withhold some; Horror uses words that resinate with drakness or evil; Thrillers usually bgin for a forward motion and speed up the pace; Fantasy relies on magic or monsters as integral parts of the plot; Sci-Fi relies on believable technology; Adventures rely on page and larger-than-life protagonists.... And remeber, great story always trumps style. But, if you rely on the story solely to sell it, it better be damned good.
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I also began my (amateur) career of writing with a huge sci-fi piece, one I haven't finished yet (obviously). Now I see how immature my writing was back then. The point was I couldn't see it was immature until I thought of putting it out there.
It could be that the writer you contacted is simply an ass. Or it could mean your writing needs some serious exposure to the outside world. My stories can change drastically simply by reading with the thought that they would be read by other people than myself. It's shocking.
Above all, don't stop writing no matter what some ass...le says about it. I've been through that as well. After my first negative critique I was close to killing my career for good.
It's good if you are willing to take in other people's opinion. At the same time, you need to develop a fine filter and seep the dirt so it doesn't stay with you.
I think I read this sentence or something similar to it on this very forum: "Writers must be absolutely humble, yet completely arrogant at the same time."
[This message has been edited by MartinV (edited December 14, 2009).]
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Welcome to Hatrack. Since you seem to be into novels (me, too), you might want to check out the Novel Support Group (NSG) in Hatrack Groups.
I find the criticism you quoted unhelpful, unless there's more. What about the style was inadequate or awkward? Said bookisms? Too many adverbs? Without some specifics, it's really hard for you to improve your work. Fortunately, you can get that here.
Ultimately, when it comes to style or voice, not everyone is going to like the same things. Something that one person raves over, another will hate. But there are some specific things that can generally make your prose stronger. And all of us here are working on those things. So you're in good company.
Particularly in today's market, though, 230,000 words is going to be a really tough sell. 80,000 to 120,000 is roughly standard novel length. And from what I've read on some of the blogs, shorter is doing better just now. Not to say it can't happen. I can certainly think of exceptions. (Patrick Rothfuss' NAME OF THE WIND comes to mind. Debut novel at almost 700 pages and it doesn't even come to anything like a satisfying end, just waves you on to the still-unpublished second book.) But selling a novel is tough enough (I'm at 21 rejections on my first) without counting on being the exception to the rule. If it was mine, I'd be looking to see if there was a clean way to divide that into two shorter books. Just a thought.
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I think you are looking at it all wrong. First of all, once you commit yourself to writing, you commit yourself to having to deal with people who don't like your writing. Criticism is part of the package. Just bring up the topic of a famous author like Stephanie Meyer or Stephen King or Tom Clancy or whatever and you are bound to find people who can't stand to read their works... even though all of them are wildly successful in the publishing world.
Secondly, you got feedback from an editor. Be grateful it wasn't a simple form rejection! Even though they didn't give you details, you now have a red flag up on your manuscript that maybe your style isn't what a reader expects. It may be just one editor's opinion, but the more you let people read your works, the more you will start to see trends in the critiques people have of your writing. And if you start to notice that everyone seems to say something similar, you can be assured that your work is creating a certain response with people.
Have you posted any of your first lines in the feedback sections here?
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Just remember that the best critic for your work is you. Maybe you should take a break from the story, and work on critiquing others work, write a story for one of the writing challenges, play xbox for a while, and then come back to it with fresh eyes. If your skimming to the good parts, then you are in need of a second draft. (in my humble experience)
Keep writing, keep learning, keep growing. Remember that most writers write about five novels before writing their break out novel. Take Brandon Sanderson, for example. Elantris was his fifth, and now he's working on Wheel of Time.
None of those 230,000 words are wasted, because each word brings you closer.
Play around here, and you will learn so much. Oh, and welcome. ~Sheena
A bit more info; I am up to the fourth full editing pass on the story but my knowledge is limited by a lack of the technical stuff. I have studied voraciously to increase my knowledge of grammar,etc. but without input from actual peers there is only so much I can do.
The fella sort-of volunteered to help me unravel the tangle of publishing because I responded to an article he wrote on-line. I must give him credit for wanting to help a fledgling writer and for that I am grateful. All he gave me was the critique, with no alternatives for fixin' the durn thing. He was very cool at first but later seemed to respond as if he'd bitten off a rotten, stinky apple with 'half' a worm in it or something. BTW, I have no doubt that the story is not that bad (not as bad as this sentence anyway).
And YES! MartinV... I definitely need exposure to the outside world.
Meredith... I have been trying to find that halfway spot to do the split and may see a natural break point. It would take a little work... wait there's that 'work' word... I just love doing this stuff! I'm not Terry Goodkind... but his first release was 250,000 words; Wizards First Rule.
Teraen... my thought's as well. The crit wasn't so hard in itself, more the way it was delivered I guess. I am uncertain about the first 13 lines. The story starts with a character who has very little visibility in the story, he just sets the whole thing in motion. Regardless of that, I understand the importance of the process and will dutifully submit very soon.
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Writing is not something that you should do in a vacuum. I can say this with some small authority because it's what I did, in effect, for about fifteen years. I wrote stories, large chucnks of novels, even one 200k novel... with no exposure and no feedback.
Although you CAN learn, it is a very poor way of learning, because when you finally do discover that technique X isn't working, or you could do thing Y better, you feel "wow, if I'd only known that a million words ago...".
What you don't see as different in your writing vs published writing, no matter how much you look, someone else may in an instant. No author can look at the words on the page without context; but every reader has to do exactly that. So feedback is absolutely vital to see whether what you meant to say is what you actually said.
Go to the critique areas of this site. Read and critique other pieces, as well as offering your own. You learn as much and more from critiquing and analysing other people's work as you do from feedback to your work.
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