posted
Hey hatrackers, I am in need of your advice/opinions once again.
What do you do when you have a bilingual character who reverts to their native tongue in stressful situations? Especially when the POV character is NOT the bilingual one and doesn't understand what was just said? Is it better to just say, "He muttered something in French," or to actually include the French dialogue? (French is not my language, but for the sake of example...)
For my part, I prefer having the actual dialogue. Partly because it helps me keep track of what was said, partly because I feel like it gives the reader the same sense of 'huh?' that is felt by the POV character. Also, because about 90% of my cast of characters are bilingual in the same language, I feel including it is vital for authenticity's sake.
I have had readers comment, however, that it's a little frustrating to have the dialogue there but no immediate translation (which, I admit, I sometimes use to tell secrets while actually keeping them). In my defense, the only times I don't have someone translate for the monolingual MC right away is because it's an action scene and there's no time. For a sense of scale, I have probably 13-17 lines of non-English dialogue in 94,000 words. It might also be important to know that the other MC (whose POV we also get) is one of the bilingual characters, so sometimes translation isn't a problem.
How do you prefer second languages are handled? Do you have any suggestions?
posted
As a reader, I strongly prefer the "he muttered in French." If what he muttered wasn't supposed to be revealed to the POV character, I might have the POV character wonder what he said, but circumstances keep him from asking. But anything else feels like withholding to em and I hate hate hate it when the author intentionally withholds things from the reader through tricks or devices (or even blatantly, "come on everyone, I think I just figured it out." <chapter break> )
Posts: 1911 | Registered: Mar 2007
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posted
Yeah, I'm really trying to avoid that kind of thing. In fact, I'm finding that learning about storytelling is kind of ruining some stories for me. For example, in the audiobook I'm currently listening to, this just happened (not word for word, but the basic idea):
"I have a plan!" she said. The others listened while she told them her idea. When she was done, they stared at her in astonishment. "That just might work!" Bob exclaimed.
I never would have noticed this before, but when I heard this part, my brain started screaming, "Cheap trick! Cheap trick!" Ha ha. I got over it because I like the series and it's juvenile fiction. Not that that makes it ok, but you know...
Needless to say, I try to avoid using the other language as a cheap trick. I want my story to be good enough to stand without resorting to things like that. If I can't come up with a story that strong, I'm not a storyteller, which means I shouldn't be writing stories.
Anyway, a I got a little off topic, as I do, but thanks for the response! That's good to know.
So then when the POV character is bilingual, do I include the dialogue and a mental translation, such as:
"Dw i'n gweld eich bod chi ddim yn deallus iawn," he said. I see that you are not very bright.
Or do it like this:
"I see that you are not very bright," he said in Welsh.
Sigh. I guess my problem is that I need to realize that not everyone thinks foreign language is fascinating and that I am a nerd.
[This message has been edited by mythique890 (edited August 25, 2011).]
posted
As a reader, I don't really care or honestly much notice one way or the other, for the most part. If anything I may have a slight preference for, or at least enjoy it when the other language is included. But, I love languages...and although I only speak and understand English, I know enough about a number of other languages to often get some idea of what's being said anyway.
I'd hazard a guess that you're not going to find much concensus on this...its mostly a taste thing and I'd guess theres a lot like me that don't notice much either way. As a writer, I'd advise you do it however you're most comfortable doing it and not worry about it.
Edit: I'd also add, I'm currently reading the bestseller "The Name of the Wind" and in it fictitious foreign languages are often included, both with and without translations...and, I think there are also some instances of "He muttered in Siaru" or some such thing so Pat Rothfuss, apparently, uses all the methods.
[This message has been edited by Merlion-Emrys (edited August 25, 2011).]
posted
I'm all for including the language, as long as there isn't too much of it. If half the story is in french then your audience is people who know both english and french. But a little french now and then would be fine. I would just scan over it, but it would be an extra treat for french speakers.
Posts: 1895 | Registered: Mar 2004
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If the POV character knows the language, then write it out. I wouldn't translate it word for word, but if it is really important, you need to give some indication of what was said. If not, I wouldn't worry about it. The reader can look it up if he/she is really curious. Usual you have an idea of what was said from the context.
IF the POV character doesn't know the language, then writing it out word for word would feel like a POV violation to me. I know when I hear a language that I don't understand, I'm not able to separate the words or remember the sounds. I would just write "he mumbled in french" or describe the how the language sounds.
Hope this helps.
[This message has been edited by MAP (edited August 25, 2011).]
posted
I'd like to chip in here, since I am not a native speaker. I am fluent in four languages. Every time I ease into speaking English it becomes hard to switch to another language,regardless of the situation. You start thinking in English. Does your character speak a smattering of English or is he proficient? One thing I noticed is that some people's grammar goes awry when pressured. This usually includes wrong prepositions, missing inflections and wrong word order (especially while being coerced or bullied). It depends on how comfortable your character is with the language.
posted
Thank you for the feedback everyone! It is good to know what people think!
MAP- I agree with the POV issue; I actually had the same thought (that if the POV character speaks the language, write it because they'd know it, otherwise no).
Foste- thank you especially! The bilingual characters are fluent in English. It is very helpful to know about getting grammar wrong in stressful situations. Would you say that the grammar becomes more similar to the speaker's native language, or is it just randomly incorrect?
posted
I agree with MAP, despite what I just said. And yes I think the 'bad' grammar has something to do with their native language. I've been on a message board with a lot of non-native speakers, I also work with a lot of international students. There is a distinct difference between broken english from a native portuguese speaker and a native korean speaker, but there isn't that much difference between two native korean speakers.
Posts: 1895 | Registered: Mar 2004
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posted
@mythique890 Great observation! Knowing a thing or two about your character's first language will make the writing smoother. Random mistakes don't ring true, to me at least.
[This message has been edited by Foste (edited August 26, 2011).]
posted
What comes to mind here is Agatha Christie's Hercule Poirot---he knew English well, but always spoke as if he were filtering it through his native French first. (Actually, he was Belgian.) I've been told Christie's handling of this is somewhat crude and inaccurate, though...
Posts: 8809 | Registered: Aug 2005
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posted
@Pyre Dynasty- That makes a lot of sense, thanks for the insight!
@Foste- Thank you! I studied linguistics in school, so I've always been fascinated with how people speak and why they use language the way they do. I studied the language I'm using for a semester, but I've forgotten most of it... I'm thinking about emailing my old professor to get more information, but so far I've been too nervous. It's not a language that many people speak anymore.
@Robert- Interesting. Maybe I'll check that book out and see how she did it.
posted
Books, plural...I forget just how many there were, but I'd recommend The Murder of Roger Ackroyd and Murder on the Orient Express, for starters. Also The Mysterious Affair at Styles, which was Christie's first book as well as Poirot's first appearance. (I don't think the TV series with David Suchet captures this particular facet as well at the books, but its advantages outweigh this (possible) flaw.)
Posts: 8809 | Registered: Aug 2005
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posted
One problem with writing out the actual words from the other language, is that to the non-speakers of same, it's going to sound like mumble-mutter-snorgle-thwpt, not like identifiable words. At best they might hear it as a Mondegreen, akin to Mairzy Doats. Worst case, you wind up with a POV switch.
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