posted
I am taking Cat Rambo's Fantasy and Science Fiction Online Workshop.
In class today we had to share the first three paragraphs of a story and two of the stories had an amnesia/waking-up beginning. So I couldn't help but ask if it's true editors despise beginnings like that.
Cat essentially said - just write your story!
I am posting this here because I think this is something that writers sometimes lose sight of in pursuit of getting published.
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posted
Well, it is cliche, but that being said Brad T's winning WOTF entry had a waking up opening.
Miss Rambo had done more than one stint as an editor, ask her if she ever ditched out of a submission because it had a waking up opening.
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posted
That is one of those rules that is always being broken. It seems like it's one of the first ones stated and one of the first ones broken. Maybe it's the easiest one to learn to break.
I have heard more than one pro say learn the rules so you can break them. Something like learning to play the piano as I understand it. You have to learn the basics before you can go all wild.
But I would love to take her class but the time element throws me off.
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quote: I have heard more than one pro say learn the rules so you can break them. Something like learning to play the piano as I understand it. You have to learn the basics before you can go all wild.
But the thing is, almost all of us already know the basics. Almost all of us know what the supposed "rules" are. And yet nevertheless when one tries to break one of them, one often gets told you shouldn't do that...because only the pros can do that, or because editors don't like it.
So the point of this really is, here we have a woman who was the editor of an SFWA professional short fiction market for at least a couple of years saying just write your story. Not, you have to learn the "rules" to know how to "break them."
Just write your story.Posts: 2626 | Registered: Apr 2008
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posted
Exactly, Mr. Undead Fertility God. Or almost exactly...I would amend your statement to, "if a particular editor likes your story well enough," etc etc.
And it's not just true of cliches.
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posted
Mr. Finger Wiggling Wizard, true words indeed. And I have to say, Ms/Mrs. Rambo is one cool Cat. She actually responds to messages from beginning writers who post on her threads on Google+.
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Not necessarily. Is Ms Rambo's class for beginning writers? If so, she may be just trying to get you to write and be confident in your writing. A question about what editors like could be seen as getting ahead of yourself.
It would be like asking the instructor on the first day of driving school the proper time to accelerate in the apex of a curve while they're trying to tell you what all the dials on the dash mean.
Look kid, let's focus on getting you around the track in one piece first
The real lesson that you should be taking out of that class is that 2 people opened the exact same way. Now image if those stories were in the same slushpile. Geez, not another one!
What makes waking up openings cliche is that they're overused. Ask a slush reader of any publication that accepts novelette sized submissions. I'd be willing to bet there is a consistent 5 to 10% ratio on stories that open that way. And if you have a story that is similiar to others in the same pile, your submission is likely for a short life.
That being said, it's likely almost everyone on hatrack has a waking up opening. I have one. A novella tale where the protagonist is revived from a chrono vat. I had to make changes so my first words weren't of him opening his eyes. You have to be creative if you want your cliche opening to not look like a cliched opening.
I review for an ezine (and another that went belly up last year). I've wrote reviews on about 200 stories last year. Brad T's is the only story that opened with the protag waking up. He proved that selling such cliche openings is not impossible, but the other 200 also shows how hard it really is. Brad was creative about disguising his so it stood out.
Ms Rambo is indeed one cool cat. She is wise and knows the key to writing better is to write. But I am sure she would agree that the key to getting published is to stand out, and cliched openings only makes your writing look like part of the crowd.
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posted
It's really not particularly funny, but I have no desire to turn this thread into a flame war, since it's content is important and useful.
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Who's trying to start a flame war? True, this is only my opinion, but I have backed my opinion with references and with my own observations.
If you want to write a waking up opening, by all means go for it. Submit it. If the quality is fitting for the publication, and it stands out, it should sell. I write because it is my hobby (not good enough or dedicated enough to get rich at it in this difficult to break into industry). I write because I enjoy it. So if you feel the same way, then by all means write the story the way you want it to be read.
But to call waking up openings not cliche and to suggest cliche openings have no bearing on their chances for publication is not accurate at all. To say so is dishonest and counterproductive if your desire is publication of your work.
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posted
Nevermind. I'm going to let the insanity of your placing words in a professional editors mouth speak for itself.
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snapper - I understand your point but, forgive me if I am wrong, I detect a sense of scepticism if not downright cynicism.
Everyone in the workshop are writers with varying levels of publishing success.
I believe Cat Rambo answered honestly - in her capacity not just as a teacher, but as an editor, and as a writer herself. I do not believe she was simply paying lip service to the class.
In fact I think her answer has a far deeper meaning. "Write your story" requires a writer to be true to themselves first.
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posted
I've only met Cat briefly, but I agree with redux, I doubt she pays lip service to anyone.
While it is true that your story needs to stand out, I don't think we, as writers, should eliminate any tool from our shelf just because others have done it before us. I actually think that's what the pros know. Do whatever you need to do to tell the story you want to tell in the best way you know how. Write your story.
When I was in Reno for World Con last year, I had the chance to ask Ellen Datlow what she looks for in a submission - talk about a cliche question. She was kind enough to answer without acting like she'd already answered it a hundred times that week - voice, both of the author and the character. And I have heard that, in one form or another, from quite a few editors. That seems to be more important than the actual events of the story. And if you think about it, regardless of what happens in a tale, isn't voice what imbues it with life?
I'll end by saying that I agree completely with Cat and hope that I can achieve her level of sageosity about writing one day.
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redux, maybe you should tell Cat about this discussion and ask her to clarify her comment. Then you can post her response here.
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But to call waking up openings not cliche and to suggest cliche openings have no bearing on their chances for publication is not accurate at all. To say so is dishonest and counterproductive if your desire is publication of your work.
posted
I agree with Snapper. I also think 1st drafts aren't always the place to worry about cliches.
And he hasn't put words in anyone's mouth. He simply opined that the comment wasn't exactly clear. I had wondered something along the same lines.
Snapper also didn't say she was just paying lip service. Good teachers realize that if you throw too many barriers to success at the beginning, then you will discourage a lot of students. So, at the beginning you can be more accepting of work that you would not be later on. Just getting a story is hard enough. Once you have success, then you ratchet up the difficulty.
Snapper also didn't say ditch the technique. In fact, quite the opposite. He showed that it had been done, gave advice on how to do, and tried to prepare anyone who wants to go that route what to expect. Seems sound to me.
If the rules mean nothing, if everything is so subjective, why bother posting on a forum for writers? Why look for critiques? If they're all just one giant ego circle-jerk why waste your time when you could be writing?
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posted
Nobody said it was a circle-jerk. More like, judge the awakening opening for what it is. Mentioning that it is a hard sell is okay, but steering people away from it is not, in my humble opinion.
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posted
I don't know how more clear the answer needs to be.
If you want to believe that editors do despise those kinds of openings and will automatically reject the story on that premise, then simply don't ever write or submit a story with that kind of opening. Problem solved.
However, if you want to be true to your own art, then write your story.
The purpose of workshopping stories and requesting critiques is to tease out the story that's already there. To improve those parts that might not be clear, to maybe consider a different approach in order to tell that same story but in a more compelling way.
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posted
*grabs his marshmellows, chocolate and graham crackers and heads to the fire*
Whoops, mis-said.
*wakes up, grabs his marshmellows, chocolate and graham crackers and heads to the fire.*
I dont know Cat Rambo, although I did read one of her stories. I think the point I take out of it is writing is most important part, and if you get to caught up in all the rules, you won't write. (I know this first hand. I wrote 3 novels in 1 year, learned the rules and now struggle to finish even 1 in 3 years.) Lost my voice and can't find it.(Although pretty sure work and another child helped me lose my way as well, lol)
Cliche's exist, and if you use one, use it well. Write the best story YOU can.
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The problem with cliche openings like starting the story when the protag is waking is that they usually (not always, but usually) the wrong place to start the story.
Waking is an easy opening for a writer. It is ingrained into the way we think. We start our day with waking up. You can think of it as we start our real life daily story every morning when we wake up. So I think a lot of times in writing the MC waking is the easy place to start a story, but not necessarily the right place to start the story.
I think a lot of the cliches and "rules" of writing are to help us avoid the easy pitfalls. Things that are easy for us to do as writers (like tell instead of show), and that we take that path instead of the harder path only because it is easier for us to write and not because it is what is best for the story.
And when someone says that you shouldn't start a story with waking, what you should really take away from that is to think carefully about where you start your story, and make sure you are starting it in the right place. It very well may be with the MC waking, but you should make sure that that is the best place to start, just like you should always make sure that you are starting in the right place.
I don't think the "rules" of writing should be strictly adhered to even for beginning writers. You can break the rules even if you are writing your first story ever. But I think you should be mindful of them and make sure you are doing so to service the story and not just because it is easier for you to write it that way.
Merlion, I respect you a lot, and I agree with a lot of what you say. But I think you are very instinctive in your writing, and there are many writers like you, but not everyone. Some beginning writers or writers in general need to learn how to think more analytical. And "the write however you want" gives them permission to not think about their stories on a deeper level.
I think the "rules" are helpful for a lot of writers. It makes them think critically about what they are doing and why. I think it will make them better writers if they think about why the "rules" are there and how breaking them can hurt or help their stories.
I think the point is to learn to think more deeply about the story you are trying to tell and the best way to tell it. And if breaking every single rule is the best way to tell your story, then do it. Posts: 1102 | Registered: May 2009
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quote: MAP said: I don't think the "rules" of writing should be strictly adhered to even for beginning writers. You can break the rules even if you are writing your first story ever. But I think you should be mindful of them and make sure you are doing so to service the story and not just because it is easier for you to write it that way.
I agree completely. It's all about the story.
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posted
"I think the "rules" are helpful for a lot of writers. It makes them think critically about what they are doing and why. I think it will make them better writers if they think about why the "rules" are there and how breaking them can hurt or help their stories."
As my young cousins like to say, "True story, right there."
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posted
Some call them guidelines even evidently some don't even like that term.
As to what Cat might say about breaking the rules compared to just writing the story, she stated it the way she wanted to. But I was trying to say why I think that one "rule" is so widely broken. I know people who have set out to open a story with someone waking up and to do it right. In one case it worked, the story sold to someone who had listed various rules which included that one.
As stated already I think it depended on how the "rule" was broken. It wasn't cliche-ish.
With me it doesn't matter if I break a "rule" or not it all comes out on the same lower level anyway, so I just as well just write it my way.
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posted
Sometime in my Internet Fan Fiction period, I realized that I'd written three stories in a row that began with someone waking up. Let's face it, the beginning of a character's day is an obvious place to begin a story.
Too obvious. In that case, the first story was "out there" and nothing I could do with it...I shifted the second story around and started it at another point further along...and abandoned the third without finishing it. Since then I've tried to avoid that kind of opening...though it sometimes creeps up on me.
(By the way, "Cat Rambo" is just a name to me; just someone I've heard of, but know nothing about. A product of my own disconnect with what's going on in the SF / fantasy world.)
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quote: If the rules mean nothing, if everything is so subjective, why bother posting on a forum for writers? Why look for critiques? If they're all just one giant ego circle-jerk why waste your time when you could be writing?
The same could be said in reverse. If it's all objective and if the rules are absolute and universal, why do we need to workshop? Why is there not a "Book of the rules" published that any aspiring writer can learn them from and then automatically become a bestselling author themselves?
Although I've answered this question for you at least once already I'll do so again. Critiques serve, if nothing else, the purpose of helping us know if our intentions with a story are coming through to others. I've received many a critique that was quite harsh and wherein the person obviously didn't care for the story, but their comments also revealed to me that it did exactly what I wanted it to do, even if it wasn't to their taste.
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quote: The problem with cliche openings like starting the story when the protag is waking is that they usually (not always, but usually) the wrong place to start the story.
Maybe. The thing is though, I can remember back a couple of years ago here on Hatrack, someone would post a "waking up" opening and they probably would get some comments like you speak of, but they'd also get at least one or two saying, either outright or by strong implication "You need to write a different opening for your story because editors (apparently all of them) hate those kinds of openings and will reject it out of hand."
And that was...and still sometimes is...true of a variety of other things besides "waking up" openings.
quote: I think the "rules" are helpful for a lot of writers. It makes them think critically about what they are doing and why. I think it will make them better writers if they think about why the "rules" are there and how breaking them can hurt or help their stories.
Maybe. But I don't think they should be portrayed as "rules" or even as "guidelines" and not because I'm some literary care bear who thinks they are too harsh (I know you don't think that of me, MAP, but quite a few folks around here do) but because that isn't what they are. They are not anything to be followed or broken. Genevive has it right. They are tools. Techniques. Elements. Modes. Colors on the artist's palette to be used or passed over at the artist's need or choice. "Show" is not better than "tell." They are just two different modes that each have their own uses. And cliches become cliches for a reason.
quote: Merlion, I respect you a lot, and I agree with a lot of what you say. But I think you are very instinctive in your writing, and there are many writers like you, but not everyone. Some beginning writers or writers in general need to learn how to think more analytical. And "the write however you want" gives them permission to not think about their stories on a deeper level.
I appreciate that, and I feel the same way. You're also partially right about my instinctive tendencies...but not entirely. I am analytical as well, though my analysis may not be based on the same assumptions people tend to attach to such, and some of what you perceive as an instinctive approach may be, in essence, simple confidence, or perhaps rather an understanding of myself. And some of it is also the realization that I've stated so many times before...that there is no magic bullet, no Philosophers Stone and anything I or anyone writes will be liked by some and disliked by others and there is bugger all can be done about that.
And while you may be right that "write however you want" could possibly be seen as an excuse by some not to think deeply about their stories...in my years in the writing community, I can count on one hand the number of aspiring writers I've met who were anything like overconfident (and I must search in my mind to do even that.) On the other hand, what is the most common thing for people to say in their Hatrack introduction threads? What I see most of is a lack of confidence...how they didn't start writing for years because they just didn't think they could ever produce anything anyone would want to read, how scared they are of their work being reviled and ridiculed etc etc. A hefty chunk of aspiring writers have confidence issues, and the heavy duty "rules" and being told "no, you can't/shouldn't do that that way" (directly or by implication) seems to me likely to be quite discouraging. And by that I don't even necessarily mean it will discourage them from writing at all...though it may...but it will break down their confidence and belief in their own work and tend to make them think if they want any kind of "success" they must bend their work to fit a specific mold. And so, we lose natural, original voices and the world is, I feel, poorer for it.
Further, as far as this thread, a big part of the issue I and others are having is, here we have a relatively straightforward statement from a (former but recent) professional editor, who knows many other professional editors, about editorial thought. But, because it runs contrary to the "rules" that some folks are so desperately obsessed with, they feel the need to try and turn it around to support their own view. And I find it a little odd because at times here on Hatrack, some folks have put pro fiction editors up as infallible, universal and highly uniform gods who arbitrate the "rules" of writing, so it's a little strange to me that those same people should become so frantic when the words of one such disagree with their long-cherished gospel.
posted
"And I find it a little odd because at times here on Hatrack, some folks have put pro fiction editors up as infallible, universal and highly uniform gods who arbitrate the "rules" of writing, so it's a little strange to me that those same people should become so frantic when the words of one such disagree with their long-cherished gospel."
I thought it was odd that people who think editors are just people too with opinions just as fallible as anyone else's would put so much stock into a vague statement by one person.
Learning the "rules" just means learning the tools. You keep mentioning that these are tools and yet when Snapper tried to point out how to actually use the tool in question, you wrote that his words were insanity.
Snapper's right. Let the market decide.
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quote: I thought it was odd that people who think editors are just people too with opinions just as fallible as anyone else's would put so much stock into a vague statement by one person.
Which, as I'm sure you're well aware, was simply on the level of "here is something that we've been saying anyway being said by someone whose opinion those folks will actually pay attention too."
quote: Learning the "rules" just means learning the tools. You keep mentioning that these are tools and yet when Snapper tried to point out how to actually use the tool in question, you wrote that his words were insanity.
First, they can't really be rules and tools at the same time. A tool can be used in any way you choose (pardon the rhyming) but a rule is proscriptive. My point above was that my issue is the presentation of things things as rules...as proscriptive...as directives to be follow...rather than as things to be used, not used and manipulated in any way a person sees fit.
Further, and again as I am sure you are full well aware, those words were not the ones I was calling insanity. I was referring to the instant response to this thread being "well she doesn't really mean that, she just isn't telling them its a bad idea yet because its a first draft.
quote: Let the market decide.
Which is essentially what I've always said anyway. You're story will be bought or not based on editorial opinion...no amount of anything you do is going to allow you to actually control whether it sells or not. This is not a technical profession where you can reach a certain level of knowledge/competence/mastery and expect certain results automatically. It's all run by opinion. Indeed even if the market does except your story, its not a measure of any objective concept of quality, it simply means a particular editor liked your story enough to pay you for it. Which is great and quite meaningful in itself, but still is what it is.
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posted
Hmm. Not wanting to give one "side" or the other the last word, I still think that maybe this topic should end now.
Unless redux wants to continue to use it to share more of what Cat Rambo has to say.
And maybe we can resist discussion, in this topic, at least, of Cat's words? Just, you know, take them at face value?
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posted
That was the exact original intention of this thread, but it was, unfortunately but not that unexpectedly, almost immediately smashed in that regard.
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posted
I think this thread served its purpose. It was simply my desire to share some insight from someone who has experience as both an editor and writer.
posted
Can we have a separate thread on this discussion in that case? Or has the discussion deteriorated too much?
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posted
If enough discussion hasn't already happened, anyone who wants to continue, respectfully, is welcome to start a separate topic.
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She actually responds to messages from beginning writers who post on her threads on Google+.
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