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Denevius, I guess I'm biased--I'm a WASP (White Anglo-Saxon Protestant). And that's probably the main reason why my stories do not have a huge level of ethnic diversity. In my story, Æsir Dawn, all of the 'human' characters and 'gods' are predominantly white, however some essential characters are non-white (Anatolian I guess would be the current designation but in the past they were better known as Trojans). In another, The Gryphon Throne, the ostensible 'bad guys' have ebony coloured skin that is pitch black. This isn't racial stereotyping as they have the more advanced culture, society and technology.
Now, I'm not sure that these examples even faintly meet any level of cultural diversity, but I am trying to point out that, as a writer, I will pick and choose that level which I deem is appropriate to my story. And, again, I have to stress the point that I'm biased, and I admit it, but I'm not about to stretch my abilities to extrapolate what it is to be a member of another race or culture unless I've spent the time to create that race or culture.
quote: Originally posted by MattLeo: depending on their awareness
That's the whole point, right up there. And, I'm sorry to say, most people are blissfully unaware of any issues of ethnicity in the stories they read. They're reading for entertainment, not social or anthropological commentary.
You're attacking a strawman - nobody is saying make your story an anthropological commentary, any more than anyone is saying make the story a lecture on physics or astronomy.
Getting details wrong that can easily be got right is just lazy writing, and *some* people do notice when the author can't be bothered. Even *more* people notice when an author takes the trouble to get things right.
Factual errors about ethnicity are easy to avoid. If you don't want to have any Hispanic surnamed characters, don't set your story in post-apocalyptic LA. Set it in Fargo. Or a different planet. No anthropological commentaries needed, just a basic respect for the intelligence of your readers.
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But, MattLeo, my point is that despite what you may think, the majority of people don't notice. I can honestly say it never occurred to me or any of the writers I've been associated with. As far as readers perceptions of the 'issue' are concerned, I've never met one who's asked, "Why are all your characters white?" And that isn't just limited to me talking with white readers, I have had contact with a vast array of people from diverse backgrounds that cover most of the globe.
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Well, let's leave "white" aside -- that's just meaningless pseudoscience. Let's say "culturally identifying with a country which speaks a Germanic language." Let's call such people ethnically Germanic (or perhaps para-Germanic in the case of the Celtic peoples of Britain).
Now as you should have gleaned from this conversation that I'm not a huge fan of tokenism. Although... like anything else, some people do tokenism better than others. Bollywood films have to sell into a market with over 40 distinct ethnicities, and the results are disarmingly eager to please, despite that being crassly calculated to maximize box office. Maybe there's a lesson to be learned there.
Still, I'm not talking about tokenism. I'm talking about situations where the author's own choice of setting and story call for at least some of the characters to identify themselves as other than ethnically Germanic.
If there is no logical requirement that the story contain a diversity of characters, you're fine by me. But if there is a requirement, and you ignore it, I think you're being lazy. But tokenism isn't the only way to do handle this.
THE HUNGER GAMES is an interesting example. As Denevius points out Panem ought to be an ethnically and racially diverse nation. But I'm not so much focused on the lack of people named "Gonzales" or "Rodriguez" as the lack of people named "Johnson" or "Miller" -- Or "Tremblay" or "Bouchard" for that matter.
What the lack of now common surnames suggests to me is that Panem experienced a kind of forced de-ethnicizing at some point, during which people were assigned new surnames with no past assocations. That's not lazy, it's brilliant.
Of course it may not have been a conscious choice by the author. So much of this stuff comes from who knows where, but what it means is that the diversity problem doesn't actually arise in the HUNGER GAMES.
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quote:What the lack of now common surnames suggests to me is that Panem experienced a kind of forced de-ethnicizing at some point, during which people were assigned new surnames with no past assocations. That's not lazy, it's brilliant.
Is this from an addendum, as I don't remember that from the series.
And I guess that would kind of work, as acts of cultural genocide is common throughout history when one side dominates another. It doesn't explain the absence of non-white features in physical descriptions of characters, however. This is just some stats from U.S. Census Bureau's projection of population growth by race.
quote: The non-Hispanic white population is projected to peak in 2024, at 199.6 million, up from 197.8 million in 2012. Unlike other race or ethnic groups, however, its population is projected to slowly decrease, falling by nearly 20.6 million from 2024 to 2060.
Meanwhile, the Hispanic population would more than double, from 53.3 million in 2012 to 128.8 million in 2060. Consequently, by the end of the period, nearly one in three U.S. residents would be Hispanic, up from about one in six today.
The black population is expected to increase from 41.2 million to 61.8 million over the same period. Its share of the total population would rise slightly, from 13.1 percent in 2012 to 14.7 percent in 2060.
The Asian population is projected to more than double, from 15.9 million in 2012 to 34.4 million in 2060, with its share of nation's total population climbing from 5.1 percent to 8.2 percent in the same period...All in all, minorities, now 37 percent of the U.S. population, are projected to comprise 57 percent of the population in 2060.
So, realistically speaking, even if Katniss never ran into a Gonzales, she'd still see around District 12 the descendants of Mexicans, Indians, Blacks, Asians, all of which are missing in descriptions of characters in all three books.
quote: As far as readers perceptions of the 'issue' are concerned, I've never met one who's asked, "Why are all your characters white?"
I wouldn't ask this question, either, because I already know the answer, and asking will only make you feel like you're being attacked and put you on the defensive. So it's more out of politeness, I think, that it's not mentioned.
quote: And that isn't just limited to me talking with white readers, I have had contact with a vast array of people from diverse backgrounds that cover most of the globe.
I question the veracity of this statement, as dialog about lack of diversity in literature and film is nothing new. Again, I can see people not bringing it up out of politeness, though, as one doesn't bring up politics or religion.
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MattLeo, Denevius, I can see, at least from my point of view, that we will never agree on this subject. Each of us has our own perspective and rationale concerning the relevance of incorporating diversity in our literary endeavours, and each of them is different. Personally, I'm satisfied that my writing is not intentionally exclusive, simply unintentionally so. Having said that, in my Jack Rayne story, my protagonist is envisioned as being either half Anglo and half Chinese or half Sri Lankan. And, politeness be damned, numerous times I've been referred to as a 'skip' by members of other races at various times in my life, a racist slur referring to my 'white' antecedents. It goes both ways, you know. Btw, skip refers to 'Skippy, the bush kangaroo'--a TV show.
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Well, Phil, you seem to insist on putting me in the "token minorities camp," a place where I'm neither comfortable nor entirely welcome. Here's my problem with tokenism: it's crypto-majoritarian. By that I mean tokenism conceives "diversity" in terms of categories *as perceived by the majority culture*.
Case in point: I once worked in a new non-profit organization headed by a brilliant scientist/environmentalist -- man of strong and noble liberal sentiments. He looked around at the eight of us at the conference table one day shortly after Alejandro joined us. "Four women, one black, one Latino, one Asian," the boss said, rubbing his palms together. "We're doing great on diversity!" He was counting me as "Asian" because I'm 1/2 Han Chinese.
While the sentiment was as I said noble, the logic struck me as absurd. Why do people descended from Spain have a category of their own, but all of Asia ends up in one giant pot? People in Japan are no closer culturally to Han Chinese than Spaniards are to Englishmen -- and people from Indonesia and the Philippines are less so. And the "black" woman was from Africa -- she had no cultural affinity at all with African Americans. And why does *Africa* get one category which they share with African Americans? There's over 2000 distinct languages spoken in Africa. Using language as a rough marker of cultural identity, there's 50x as much cultural diversity in Africa than in all of Europe from Greenland to the Caspan Sea. The conception of "Africa" as one place falls so short of the reality that calling it "Eurocentric" doesn't begin to capture the absurdity.
As for Alejandro, he wasn't particularly representative of Mexicans. He was from an elite family, one of the roughly 10% of Mexicans who are entirely of Spanish descent. In fact this was true of everyone else around the table but me: each was a scion of some wealthy, elite family. And here's the kicker: all of the others graduated from the same environmental policy program the boss founded. They were a great group of people, but from where I sat they were not "diverse".
The point here is that the token minority approach to diversity is patronizing and unavoidably ignorant, even when it is undertaken by very, very smart, well-intentioned people. So don't take this approach when you write.
But don't stubbornly hire character after character right off the same production line either. Good writing is particular. It manages at once to be both familiar and surprising. You can't do that with paper dolls for characters.
And I know you haven't got any complaints. That's not the point; if a *reader* complains it's going to be for political reasons, and I'm talking craft. Fiction is like stage magic. Readers have no idea how it's done.
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quote:Originally posted by Grumpy old guy: No, Denevius, the quote is accurate and not out of context. But what I'm struggling to understand is, what context? I can, as a writer, create any damn milieu I like and how accurately it mimics real life is my (the writers) decision.
I take what you're saying to be: "I want my created world to be real in context and true to itself. If that's nothing like Real Life, too bad."
And I feel more and more this way as my world continues to develop into its own self place.
It does bother some readers that my people don't react like humans. They're NOT humans; should I force them to behave as they would not? Isn't that the core of the argument here -- that some characters are deformed into roles rather than allowed to be themselves?
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quote:Originally posted by Robert Nowall: (I remember a couple of other errors. Pearls were found at the Mines of Moria---a location well away from the ocean. And Bilbo serves tomatoes to the party of Dwarves, at a time of year where they wouldn't've been ripe.
Not necessarily... The hothouse for growing out-of-season fruits was invented at least a couple thousand years ago; Hobbits are not primitives. And there are freshwater pearls:
quote: Each of us has our own perspective and rationale concerning the relevance of incorporating diversity in our literary endeavours, and each of them is different.
Yeah, I do think you're missing the point, though I'm unsure why.
"Hunger Games" is a future America. Current population of America suggests that non-white will be the majority by a fair percentage. "Hunger Games" has only one description of this projected majority in Rue and her family, whereas everyone else is white.
This doesn't make sense. If you look at only those four statements:
1) "Hunger Games" is a future America.
2) Current population of America suggests that non-white will be the majority by a fair percentage.
3) Hunger Games" has only one description of this projected majority in Rue, whereas everyone else is white.
4) This doesn't make sense.
I'm left unsure how there can be disagreement. If there were no descriptions of characters, then fine, they truly would be the "everyman". But we get loads of physical descriptions, from Katniss and her family, to Peeta, Gale, and the people of the other Districts, to the people of the Capital.
It simply doesn't make sense that minorities are "unintentionally" left out.
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Though western culture is diverse, the majority of any identity cohort, ethnicity in particular, live out their lives in close-knit enclaves most of their existence. More people rarely stray outside their carefully well-designed enclaves than people live and coexist within a culturally diverse society. The actual absolute barriers between enclaves mere veils of illusion, though relative bastions and edifices of impermeability.
Simply put, the larger reading audience in the west wants no contact with the other, the stranger, the danger of those not like them.
On the other hand, the relative few who exist outside enclaves generally welcome diversity for its excitements, though they (we) are generally most comfortable, most content at least, when uncomfortable. We know each other on sight, by our unconventional, subtle subversions. Although we can be content among our native enclaves, we remain exoteric to esoteric cohorts, perennial outsiders no matter where we may be, range riders of the frontier social peripheries. We are a natural force for cultural diffusion. We are traders, explorers, scientists, philosphers, artists, sociologists, writers, ambassadors, warriors, subversives, and so on: we venture where most fear to tread.
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Finally getting around to responding here. Besides being busy with getting my E-novel ready and not doing much in the way of responding here or on G+, I also I misunderstood the title for this thread. I didn't take a look at it until three or four days ago.
After thinking about it I decided that I didn't have much to say that is new. I already stated on the other thread what I thought of all of this--pretty much.
Fat people though is new. I think not all that long ago leaving them out would have been considered bad--like any other group, but lately I believe that has changed and now including them would be good. At least from the POV of the group(s) who push hard at diversity.
However I know I have ran into fat characters in books and stories. Recently in fact, even though I can't remember the tale. It could have been in one of the anthologies that I have read recently instead of a book.
To repeat something I did say before and add something new after all.
Diversity in skin color and ideas, is good because we are made up of differs peoples, so it's more realistic. But I recent the idea that we as writers should include diversity. And I ask those of you who feel like we should. Do you include A-sexuals? Yes, I read a blog post of a pro writer who was had just thought that that was one group that have been totally forgotten.
I said I do a lot of different types of people--almost too many in that E-novel I referenced--but many times I don't say who my characters are. Many on the demand side will say that are all whit, because I am, but I don't describe them so no one can say for sure. I have included MC's with hispanic names not for reasons of diversity, but because I liked the names.
And Hambly isn't the only writer with that problem Kristine Kathryn Rusch has a series with a black PI and has gotten flack over it. I believe she just pretty much ignored it and let the readers decide. They did. I don't know if she talks about slavery or even racism in her books, even though it would seem likely there would be some talk of it.
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quote:Originally posted by Denevius: I'm unsure why accuracy is an agenda.
With regard to characters, accuracy is an opinion. Accurate according to whom, or per which faction?
So I make my characters accurate according to their world, with no agendas but their own.
Tho I freely admit the reason I have one intelligent species was an adverse reaction to the monster-mashing overindulged by Lucas.
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quote: Do you include A-sexuals? Yes, I read a blog post of a pro writer who was had just thought that that was one group that have been totally forgotten.
Do you have a link to this blog?
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quote: With regard to characters, accuracy is an opinion.
This is quoted from Kathleen on a story thread:
quote: Gregg L, on Earth mass can be used inter-changeably with weight (though it really shouldn't).
Mass is basically how much matter there is and weight is how much gravitational force is exerted on that matter.
Mass will not change unless some matter is either added or removed.
Weight will change depending on the gravitational force (which is different on the Moon than it is on the Earth).
So if someone from the Earth goes to the Moon, that person's WEIGHT will change, but the mass will remain the same.
Is this opinion or fact? What's more accurate, to say weight changes on the moon, or to say mass changes on the moon?
If you think this is opinion, you'll have to explain why, as it seems like fact, and one wording is more accurate than another wording.
Similarly, if you write a future world in America based upon what we currently know abut population levels, projections state that non-white will be a majority to white in America, and Mexicans will be 1 in 3 of the population.
If you don't want your future America to reflect projected population levels, that's not accurate. If you want your world to still have a majority of whites over non-whites, that's not factual based on what we know today. And when this is done, motivation becomes an issue. One can say it was unintentional, but then, when the unintentional mistake is corrected, usually the answer isn't, "Well, I'll just use mass anyway even though I know it should be weight."
As Matt said, that doesn't make you a bad person, but it does make you a poorer writer. Can you get away with it? Sure, it happens all the time. Should you willfully *decide* that though you know better, you're still going to do the wrong thing? Well, I suppose if you're white, and it's a comfort level thing to dream a white future America, okay.
But don't tell yourself that non-whites don't mind because they may still buy your book, or see your movie. They *do* mind, which is why the conversation (and let's not say 'diversity', as that's a loaded word to shrug off the argument) takes place.
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Denevius, your arguments about the possible make-up of the population of any given country in the future as being directly relational to our current projections is, not to put too fine a point on it, extrapolation and assumption.
Yes, on the balance of probabilities, you may be correct, but there is many a slip betwixt cup and lip. Anything could happen to skew population statistics in unexpected ways. In the 90's it was assumed that Chinese would be the prime language on Earth, for trade at least. English, and usually bad English, is still the 'international' language and that doesn't look like changing (which will annoy the French no end). So, if you have a rationale for having one race being preeminent go for it.
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It seems more problematic to "assume" that non-white populations will substantially decrease so that the majority white populaton in scifi/futuristic books can exist, than it is to follow the projected populaton levels of the U.S Census Bureau when crafting your story.
Though you may be wrong with the U,S. Census Bureau, at least you're following the best empircal evidence currently available. If you assume that whites will just be the majority wihout any just cause, you're writing a racial agenda in your narrative, intentional or not.
Comparing the lack of Chinese spoken for international trade, to millions of non-white people currently living in America no longer existing in the future, is, to use a cliche, comparing apples and oranges. Non-whites already make up 37% of the population. If you write a story where everone is white except for one family, you're writing a gross inaccuracy. The question is to what end?
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Denevius, imagine a virulent, mutated strain of sickle-cell anemia that is 100% fatal--all peoples of middle eastern ancestry would be wiped off the face of the planet in on fell swoop. The same could be said of a mutant strain of rosacia that, instead of enlarging surface blood cells caused them to rupture in a similar vein to some hemorrhagic fevers--a vast majority of people with Celtic ancestry would be wiped off the face of the planet.
You DO NOT KNOW what will happen in the future and your assumptions are predicated on another; that trends that are happening now will continue into the future. That is, in my opinion, arrant nonsense. As for this:
quote:If you write a story where everyone is white except for one family, you're writing a gross inaccuracy. The question is to what end?
The ends are of my own making for the purposes of my own story. If you don't like it, don't read it. If you want a different sort of story, then you write it and, if it's any good I'll read it and, if it isn't, I'll bag it (call it a load of rot in case you're wondering about the slang).
quote:Originally posted by Grumpy old guy: In the 90's it was assumed that Chinese would be the prime language on Earth, for trade at least. English, and usually bad English, is still the 'international' language and that doesn't look like changing (which will annoy the French no end).
Nobody with any brains thought Chinese was going to take over from English any time soon in International business. It take a long time to displace a language in a function. English hasn't completely taken over from French as the operating language for international organizations due to French's former status as a language of diplomacy. If you're writing about two hundred years in the future, it's very possible that English will play a secondary role to Chinese or Hindi in business. It doesn't *have* to, but it might.
All that's a red herring though. We're talking about following a "whites only" policy in your writing. If you are writing about international business in the present day, it wouldn't be credible to have someone in, say, manufacturing who never comes in contact with non-Europeans. He'd have to have Asian suppliers and competitors. Believe me, I've been involved in this kind of thing. China and Asia are a BIG deal.
I'm not talking politics here, I'm talking about not looking foolish. If you insist on maintaining your whites-only policy you can't write about anyone involved in international business in the present day or near future -- and probably not the far future either. It's your *choice* of course, but that means it's your choice whether you want to look like you have no idea what you're talking about.
That doesn't mean you can't set your story in other situations, say a planet thousands of years in the future populated by an entirely white expedition from Cornwall, UK.
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MattLeo, apart from a few archaic terms and outmoded phrases, French is no longer de-rigueur in diplomatic discourse. And, I'm sorry to say, that according to your argument, the majority of writers writing the majority of works of fiction, literature and fantasy are at this moment, what did you say? Ah, yes, looking foolish. Really?
More and more this is reminding me of a group of people railing against the way the world IS and NOT doing anything themselves to change it other than to point the finger at others and say to everyone else, "You oughta . . ."
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On the language predictions, Poul Anderson wrote a whole series of science fiction novels in which Brazil had become the major economic power of the future. So the "trade" language in his books was Portuguese.
Still hasn't happened, but that didn't make his books any less valid as science fiction.
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Detailing a character's identity matrix, which gender studies does as ethnography, another social science, is about as practical for prose writing as a psychoanalysis of a character. Explain and summarize a character's personality conditions as non-normative: schizophrenia, bipolar, obsessive compulsive, autism spectrum, or other, clinically, is about as dry and bland as doing so with any detail: physical appearance, complexion, ethnicity, vocation, etc., and same with setting's details.
A best practice for any and every setting or character and often event detail is to show through implication.
This character's name is John Smith, for example. About as plain a name as Anglo society has to offer, or Jane Leigh. Use a name like Dante Tercell implies a person of a minority ethnicity; however, other cues are needed to meet readers' needs. Actions, speech, thought, perception emphases, motives, stakes, etc., ad infinitum.
Can an audience care about that ethnic minority person if complicated by wants and problems that mean little if anything to the audience? Probably not, nor be curious about. If that character is a complication for a character an audience does care about and is curious about, that former character matters to that audience.
Otherwise, even diverse cultures co-existing somewhat self-isolate into rigid enclaves, regardless of identity marker. Unlike magnetic poles and atomic particles, like attracts like, though only insofar as folk need variety within limits.
By an exponential factor, educated well-to-do Caucasian females of any age read more than any other cohort group, numerically, quantity per capita and material quantity, to a peak of as much as one hundred times more reading than any other cohort, no matter the native language or location in the world.
Fantasy's core audience outpaces science fiction's core audience two to one for the same reasons, roughly 100,000 core U.S. fantasy readers, 50,000 core science fiction readers. Literary fiction's core audience also numbers around 100,000.
During the Potter phenomenon's heyday, young adult readership swelled beyond all adult readership. Though not a measurable core audience, youth are fickle readers, arguably, the Twilight and Hunger Games franchises reflect the Potter phenom numerically, a core reading audience numbering around two million. They are coming of age, though, having middle adult life complications, and soon will number statistically comparable to prior adult readerships. Life gets in the way.
Pragmatically, a writer might target reading audience cores, which favor, again, educated, well-to-do Caucasian females of any age. Do they care if an ethnic person is a central agonist? Do they care if an ethnic person is portrayed in an unsympathetic light? Do they care if antagonists, villains, nemeses, etc., are more similar to them than protagonists? Of course they do. Their lifeways generally shape and reflect their sympathies and antipathies.
I know many persons who have never left the communities they were born into: same neighborhoods, same schools, same churches, same shopping strips, same roads, playgrounds, social venues, same circles of acquaintances, same lives. This is irrespective of ethnicity. Even more worldly persons cluster into enclaves, though they are more widely travelled. Are these worldly persons likely to circulate among geo-centered persons? No. They are traveling enclaves and are yet another minority as less likely to read than any other minority cohort group.
Yet audiences abound for any identity metric, anymore. The Digital age has brought them into unprecedented accessibility. They don't even have to leave their native communities in order to experience whatever their hearts desire and may do so with the utmost privacy such that no one need know this reverred middle-aged, secondary school educated, Hmung tribal head man reader reads and imagines life as an inner city lesbian drug peddler supporting her family. The Hmung man reads that novel because it was pointed out to him, by marketing, by word of mouth, by browsing, and was attracted to it.
Otherwise, write for a target audience, be that audience a vanilla suburbian soccer mom waiting to pick the kids up at their private school and chaffeur them on their after-school rounds before stopping by the beauty saloon and shopping for groceries, who likes to read bodice ripper, colonial era swashbucklers where the hero and all agonists are just like her in every ethnic detail.
A double or more bind: who's your audience? Like you, though outwardly different? Like you and outwardly identical? Unlike you and outwardly different? Unlike you and outwardly identical? Which choice has the outcome you want? Riches and fame? Popular acclaim? Critical acclaim? Social acclaim? Mediocre sales performance yet a solid, diehard following? Mega sales performance yet a fickle following? All or as many of the above as possible? Writers have as many choices as they wish to consider, a right to choices predicated upon critically, consciously thinking for one's self, reliably, responsibly, flexibly: free will a sacred human right and duty many persons fail to appreciate. None or several or more or an infinite number of choices.
quote: This character's name is John Smith, for example. About as plain a name as Anglo society has to offer, or Jane Leigh. Use a name like Dante Tercell implies a person of a minority ethnicity; however, other cues are needed to meet readers' needs. Actions, speech, thought, perception emphases, motives, stakes, etc., ad infinitum.
So let's eliminate culture. It wasn't much of an issue in "Hunger Games" anyway, and since it takes place perhaps a 150 to 200 years in the future, one *may* be able to make a compelling argument that including Mexican culture isn't necessary for the plot, so will read in an unwieldy manner in the series.
But if you want to be accurate to current population levels and projected population levels, wouldn't it be more likely that the name of the characters would be Gonzales and not John Smith? Gonzales' culture is unimportant, and it could have changed or died out over the two centuries. But why would his name also die out?
But let's say Anglo naming is forced on all Panem at some point in the future. What about their physical attributes?
Why is Peeta's blonde hair and blue eyes essential enough to the plot to exist over the potential of his dark skin and curly hair? How does Peeta's blonde hair and blue eyes make any real difference to how anything unfolds in the "Hunger Games"? Because if it makes no difference, he could have easily had dark skin and curly hair as his description. No culture behind his dark skin and curly hair, but dark skin and curly hair nevertheless to accurately address the change in minority/majority status projected for the country.
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quote:Originally posted by extrinsic: By an exponential factor, educated well-to-do Caucasian females of any age read more than any other cohort group, numerically, quantity per capita and material quantity, to a peak of as much as one hundred times more reading than any other cohort, no matter the native language or location in the world.
Fantasy's core audience outpaces science fiction's core audience two to one for the same reasons, roughly 100,000 core U.S. fantasy readers, 50,000 core science fiction readers. Literary fiction's core audience also numbers around 100,000.
Goes to show that what what writers think and do and argue about is pretty durn irrelevant to the world, eh? :/
quote:Originally posted by extrinsic:During the Potter phenomenon's heyday, young adult readership swelled beyond all adult readership. Though not a measurable core audience, youth are fickle readers, arguably, the Twilight and Hunger Games franchises reflect the Potter phenom numerically, a core reading audience numbering around two million.
Note that this is some small fraction of a percent of all literate kids, and a smaller fraction of a percent of all literate persons.
Reading in these modern times has become at most a niche interest. Posts: 782 | Registered: Dec 2010
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quote:Originally posted by Reziac: Reading in these modern times has become at most a niche interest.
I'll second this. Among my numerous identity groups, I read more than any of them individually, one close to half as much, the rest maybe once in a while or never beyond what they are assigned and even then resistant to reading. And perhaps a writing goal, my goal anyway: interest more readers in reading by making a splash that appeals in ways no other medium can.
Knowing an audience's sensibilities is for me essential; that begins with a reading audience, not a film audience or family or news or work or whatever, but prose that arouses imaginations attracted to reading entertainments.
I do portray a diverse culture aesthetic if diversity matters to the theme-plot-complication. If not, I default to the audience's sensibilities my writing appeals to. Generally, that audience is ethnicity blind and favors figuring out for themselves who's who and what's what and especially assigning identities that suit their sensibilities. So I avoid absolute culture group identity markers and emphasize relative markers--specific individuals that can be of any ethnicity readers want them to be. Unless this or that character must be outwardly this or that; however, an archetype, larger-than-life representation of a kernel human condition that is ethnically blind.
This minority individual acts--personality and behavior, basic nature and behavior--exactly the way this other majority individual does. Only the individual's complexion is different. No need to call a shovel a digging appliance, only need to show the reality imitation events that characterize the individual.
For example, this boy on the cusp of manhood experiences a birthday where his kin impose an assortment of informal coming-of age-rituals on him, rituals any boy encounters from a variety of inputs and methods. He's still recognizeably initiated as a man, or as a woman if that's the role of the character. Or this woman or man who will not mature despite every sign in her life it's time to grow up. Or this soldier who questions whether war is a necessary evil and questions if she or he's a sinner. Ad nauseam. Kernel human conditions. Bigotry or its opposite xenophobia being ones where a diverse cast is required. Otherwise, within the audience's identity markers and archetypes.
On the other hand, why not a diverse cast so that the audience's sensibilities expand? Still, a portrait of a human condition and its archetypes--epic, larger-than-life agonists experiencing life defining, life complications universal to humanity, which is my audience. External appearances are superficial and superficial to prose: personalities and behaviors are crucial and meaningful.
quote:Originally posted by Denevius: [If you don't want your future America to reflect projected population levels, that's not accurate. If you want your world to still have a majority of whites over non-whites, that's not factual based on what we know today.
Sorry, this is complete BS. Current trends are just that: current. They can, and do, change. There have been lots of ridiculous predictions pushed into popular culture based on taking a current trend line and assuming it will run, unchecked, far into the future.
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quote: Current trends are just that: current. They can, and do, change
There are some things that are fact, however.
1) The non-Hispanic white population was 197.8 million in 2012. 2) Hispanic population was 53.3 million in 2012. 3) The black population was 41.2 million in 2012. 4) The Asian population was 15.9 million in 2012.
Panem is Canada, the U.S., and Mexico.
1) Canada's current population is 34.88 million people, of which 6.3 identify themselves as visible minorities.
2) The current population of Mexico is 118,000,000, of which it seems that about 4 million consider themselves to be other.
You all don't want to abide by current trends. But if we only use the facts we know now to determine the racial makeup of Panem, we'd have about two hundred twenty-eight million whites to two hundred sixty-one million non-whites. My math is absolutely awful, so please correct me if I'm wrong.
But if I'm right, non-whites are still the minority in Panem, which makes the only mention of them in "Hunger Games" in Rue to be extremely suspect.
quote:I know many persons who have never left the communities they were born into: same neighborhoods, same schools, same churches, same shopping strips, same roads, playgrounds, social venues, same circles of acquaintances, same lives. This is irrespective of ethnicity.
Okay, so this may explain why Katniss, Peeta, and Gale are all white. They stick together, after all, because of the color of their skin. Not a very good message to send to YA readers, but there it is.
However, there are a lot of people they meet who they have no control over. Why are none of these people Asians, black, or Mexican, except Rue?
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A reason why developed countries', like the U.S., have a trending ethnic population diversity, declining, say, Caucasian and increasing, say, Hispanic and Oriental populations is due to demographic transition.
Persons who enjoy more leisure time and comfortable living standards have fewer children. Persons of ethnicities who have more recently migrated into a majority population region continue their native lifeways that encourage fertility. Generally, a third generation migrant person has assimilated into a new culture and begins to reflect the majority's lifeways.
Statistical trend predictions do not account for demographic transition and cultural assimilation.
Though many South American countries may not be developed enough to have reached a demographic transition threshold, the general ethnic makeup of the majority is part native nation nations--Aztex, Mayan, Incan, for example--part Hispanic due to little regard by Spanish settlers for ethnic purity, and part African native nation people imported as servant laborers. The term that was at one time used but is now deprecated as offensive is mestizo. Ethnically "pure" enclaves still exist across the continent, though they are a declining population because within their enclaves a mini demographic transition has passed, fewer children on the order of less than two average per couple.
Religious belief systems that direct their followers to be fruitful and multiply tend to swell ethnic populations once they migrate to a region that supports their unchecked reproduction. Soon, though, in an empowered society, they reach a demographic transition tipping point if their living standard is comfortable and, most importantly, women are as equally empowered as men, and no overt incentive for more than one to three children exists.
Could the world of Hunger Games have reached both an ethnic mixing like South America's and a demographic transition? Maybe, yet film requires actors who are available and suited to a director's sensibilities.
Ethnicity is only an issue of substance in the novels as concerns a district enclave's standing in relation to the capital district. City folk dependent on rural hinterlands for their comfortable living standard and servile rustic folk supporting the primate city's living standards, including the games for entertainment and control of the populace behavior and a kind of population control in the "sacrifical" gladitorial deaths from the games.
Italy was at the time of the Roman empire and the casears' gladiator games a diverse culture, though is now not as diverse, somewhat uniform actually.
posted
Here is the link to a discussion about non binary gender people.
It evidently first appeared on TOR, so Jim Hines was commenting on it and the discussion that followed. It may have been the TOR article that I originally saw and later noticed a comment on Jim's Google+ post. I will try to find that post but it might be too long ago.
But the original post is linked in this blog post. Jim has done a series of posts on diversity in writing. In fact the newest post on his blog deals with it.
quote:You all don't want to abide by current trends. But if we only use the facts we know now...[/QB]
The fact that we know now is that we do not know tomorrow.
Now, would a good explanation for the makeup of the world make for a better story? Perhaps. But that is true of whether you have an all white society, ethnic conclaves, or a vast melting pot. Of course, if your story isn't about race, throwing race relations into the mix can also be distracting. But otherwise, there's no such thing as an inaccurate portrayal of the demographics of some future far removed by war.
And, in fact, Hunger Games gives you a setting where it's a plausible outcome: the states of North America collapsed after an apocalyptic war, and were replaced by an oppressive government that was comfortable with geno/culturecide and liked to mess with genetic engineering to achieve its goals. This stuff is in the books, and it's all the tools the reader needs to construct whatever mechanism is necessary to make sense of the racial homogeneity. I don't think it's necessary for Suzanne Collins to spell it out, whether she intended it or not.
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posted
Speaking of over weight people not being represented, there is an group usually not see, not as heroes anyway.
I thought of this at least eight months ago.
Older men and women.
At first I thought that Harry Dresden was a bit older, in his late thirties--maybe forties. But after a couple of books I saw that he was younger.
But now I have started two stories with over weight people--one is the MC. And he is middle age or so.
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posted
When you set a story on futuristic Earth, race and gender issues are part of the world-building. Not projecting how race and gender equality would evolve in your futuristic world is lazy world-building. It may not matter to all readers, but it will matter to some, and how you handle race and gender will be making some sort of statement to those people who care whether you intend it to or not.
I agree with JSchuler that there is no wrong way to project populations or equality except to not think about it because racial and gender issues are an important part of our culture. They affect us daily in terms of how we interact with each other. And it is unrealistic to just ignore that and make everyone one race unless you have an essential world-building reason for doing so.
I'm not saying you turn your story into a social issue, but you do need to figure out what roles minorities and women play in your futuristic society, and make sure they are represented to reflect those roles.
Otherwise, if everyone who is important or doing important things is a white male, then some readers are going to have an issue with it. Your society hasn't naturally evolved in terms of race or gender equality, which we would think it would because it seems to be moving in that direction.
Your readers will need a reason for that progression to have stalled or reversed or else it looks like you believe that white men are inherently better at doing important things than women and minorities. That with all things being equal, they will always come out on top.
And I guess if that is what you really believe, then go for it, but be prepared for a backlash.
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Australia has a long multi-cultural history, as does the USA. Invariably, first generation migrants tend to 'stick together' for mutual support and protection from the strangeness that surrounds them. In Australia, by the second generation, most people are 'Australianising' their names and, more importantly, their world view. By the third generation, they're as Aussie as the next bloke, nasal twang and all, and mixed marriages are not uncommon or unusual.
Phil. Not so grumpy now, he just hates being told what he 'oughta' do.Posts: 1937 | Registered: Sep 2012
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quote: It evidently first appeared on TOR, so Jim Hines was commenting on it and the discussion that followed. I
Jim Hines is voicing a fringe view. Nothing more, nothing less.
Every position has one. If you're against guns, you can find some nut on Youtube exposing extreme pro-gun rhetoric. If you're against gun control, you can find a fringe view to dismiss the argument of the other side.
To me, it's telling that when a debate about diversity comes up, you pull up Jim Hines, who represents less than 1% of the population. It's like using the slippery slope argument. Do one thing, and now you have to do the most extreme version of this thing.
Jim Hines, who I guess is asexual, is arguing that scifi and fantasy authors should consider adding asexual characters because...well, because he enjoys scifi and fantasy, and as a kid he wanted to identify with an asexual character in fiction, but couldn't. But what about asexuals who like mystery, or historical fiction, or steam punk, or all the other genres out there? These he ignores *specifically* for scifi and fantasy because this is what he reads.
It's absurd, but it also has nothing to do with acknowledging 37% of the population when you write a story. Which is an even bigger percentage of the population if you also add women with minorities.
Jim Hines argument has nothing to do with the fact that when white writers sit down, they seem to rationalize ways to have almost every character met in the narrative be white. Famine kills off minorities, or war, or a sudden plunge in birthrates, or disease, or racial genocide. Something seems to have to happen so that minorities, which is millions of people and their descendants, almost don't exist in the future.
Somehow Suzanne Collins managed to get rid of more than two hundred million non-whites currently living in Canada, America, and Mexico, except for Rue. That's quite the narrative feat.
So I guess if you choose, when the conversation of diversity, or lack thereof, in fiction comes up, you can throw up the absurd opinion of Jim Hines arguing that asexuals should be added. But it's a disingenuous tactic to take.
quote: Older men and women.
Aragon was 87, Gimli was 137, and Legolas was even older. In fantasy, it's common for characters to be advanced ages. If you simply mean someone who is old and grey, it's hard to realistically write them as heroes unless they're only old in appearance. But if they're truly old as we understand humans to be old, then there's not much one can do with them and adventures that makes sense.
quote:Originally posted by Denevius: [QUOTE]Somehow Suzanne Collins managed to get rid of more than two hundred million non-whites currently living in Canada, America, and Mexico, except for Rue. That's quite the narrative feat.
What do you mean "except for?" How do you know that Rue's ancestors were black? Remember, we're dealing with a government that knows no limits and messes with the genetic blueprint of creatures on a whim. Rue's family could just as easily have been an experiment.
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quote: Rue's family could just as easily have been an experiment.
And everyone in the Districts could be clones. And the Hunger Games universe could be the Matrix.
We can start reading lots of stuff in novels where plotholes exist. That's why it's best to make your narrative as tight as possible.
However, the text doesn't state that Rue's family is a genetic experiment. It also doesn't state that there was racial genocide, or scientific experiments to make the entire population white, or cultural genocide.
The text simply neglects to mention hundreds of millions of people who make up the population of Canada, America, and Mexico.
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quote:Originally posted by Denevius: [QUOTE]We can start reading lots of stuff in novels where plotholes exist.
But this isn't a plothole. Whether or not Panem controls a rainbow of peoples or just one is completely inconsequential to the plot. That's why taking time out to explain it one way or the other is the precise opposite of keeping the narrative tight. It is what it is, and the setting of the novel does make sense for it to be. That's enough.
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posted
I see two plot holes of substance in Hunger Games, technical details. Katniss eats her namesake marsh tuber without safe preparation. Sagittaria brevirostra midwestern or eastern Sagittaria australis known to Algic Native nation peoples as tuckahoe is toxic without careful preparations. The tuber contains unsafe amounts of oxalic acid, which forms into sharp crystals during digestion and causes intestinal cramps.
Further, oxalate is a mineral that causes kidney and gall stones, forms nucleation sites in those internal organs. Safe preparation of the tuber requires mincing the flesh and several tedious soakings and washings with fresh water before cooking and at least two changes of cooking liquor to reduce the oxalate concentration to safe levels. Fortunately, folk nowadays do not rely on the arrowhead tuber for their diets.
Katniss eats snow to hydrate. Snow is an inefficient hydration source. Fine, light, champagne snow is forty times the volume of its melted volume. A liter of water needs forty liters of such snow. Katniss' activity level at the time is high and would need on the order of three liters of water per day to remain hydrated.
The description of the snow Katniss eats suggests the snow is a midway density, still on the order of twenty times the volume of its melted volume. Icy slush is about four times the volume of its melted volume. Further, eating snow is problematic from loss of core body heat and impacts on digestion, also may cause intestinal cramps. Hydrating with snow is time and effort intensive.
Missing ethnic populations from the Hunger Games' milieu are a complication of little consequence; that is, no issue of ethnic bigotry is germane to the plot's antagonisms and causations. For tension's empathy or sympathy and curiosity features, perhaps germane for appealing to ethnic minority readers' rapport, though fiscally irrelevant since those populations read exponentially less than the ethnic makeup of the targeted audience.
However, if Hunger Games' milieu for a film were entirely persons of dark complexions, or other complexions, the narrative would be no different. Collins did not compose a narrative where complexions matter, only districts' primacy standing and consumer production toward each other in terms of social stratification.
Is a lack of ethnic diversity a plot hole? Only in so much as an ethnic country monoculture is an unnatural human condition for a large, environmentally diverse area. Complexions and external anatomical features are a consequence of adaptation to environmental influences, mostly revolved around exposure to heat, sunlight, or dearth thereof and consequent need for heat retention, instead of radiation, and no need for protection from sunlight due to clothing worn for protection from heat loss.
Other complexion colorations are consequences of environmental contributions. The so-called "redksins" Europeans noted on Eastern Woodland New World native people are from a cosmetic coloration matter added to a skin protection cream made from animal fat and bloodwort root--puccon or Algic name poughkone. The cream was worn to protect from insects and to a lesser degree sunlight and later as a cosmetic ornamentation, as makeup is worn today.
Orientals' "yellow" coloration is from the yellow dust of the Yangtze plains' loess soils blown across the Far East. "Olive" colorations of Mediteranean peoples is from heavy dietary emphasis on olive plants' fruit and oil consumption.
Caucasians' sometimes ruddy complexions is likewise from roots consumption--carrots and beets. Yams too cause a ruddy coloration tint contribution for cultures' people who consume them as a staple diet item.
Cultures that once relied on dulses--maritime red algae--for their diets also had ruddy comlexions: Iceland and Greenland Vikings, coastal Irish, and Labrador settlers.
Hot pepper consumption, a dietary adaptation to climate, also causes a ruddy complexion, though not from food-borne dye, from vascular activities that increase blood flow to the dermis, a heat radiation function.
More than clothing makes the person: place and consequent diet makes the person. Does Hunger Games' milieu affect persons' physical appearances? Unlikely since the food culture is monolithic and otherwise environmental influences upon complexion are mostly moot, since folk wear protecive clothing. Last, complexions are not consequential to the narrative; complexion has no agency in the plot. The milieu is monocultural except for social stratification relevant to the plot and target audience.
Edited to add: What about turning the discussion to strategies Collins might have used to show cultural diversity without materially changing the creative vision?
quote: However, if Hunger Games' milieu for a film were entirely persons of dark complexions, or other complexions, the narrative would be no different.
The narrative would have been no different, but would the series reception have been different? Its reception to publishers, its reception to consumers, and its reception to Hollywood?
If all of the characters looked Mexican (ignoring culture, just looked Mexican), and Rue was the only little white girl in "Hunger Games", would the first book had been so popular with absolutely no difference except its character descriptions?
Not only do I think its reception would have been different, and greatly diminished, but I also doubt Hollywood would have made a film of all Mexican looking characters, and I strongly suspect many white people would have wondered what in the world happened to all of the white people so that Mexicans now dominate North America.
Can you not imagine the political rhetoric behind this exact same book *except* with Mexican looking characters. All names rename the same, no Mexican culture is ever mentioned. Just they look Mexican.
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posted
Denevius, I don't understand why you insist Katniss is white when she is described as olive skinned with dark hair. In fact, Gale too is a person of color. The coal mining community of district 13 are all described as people of color. Peeta and the more wealthy people in district 13 are described as white.
Katniss could very well be Mexican or some mixture of white and Mexican because her mother was white (from the more wealthier side of town). I am white and my husband is Mexican, and we have a beautiful daughter who is olive skinned with dark hair just like Katniss.
quote: Denevius, I don't understand how you insist Katniss is white when she is described as olive skinned with dark hair. In fact, Gale too is a person of color.
There was controversy surrounding this since Jennifer Lawrence is definitely *not* a person of colour.
Edited to add: An excerpt from an article on the controversy.
quote:Gary Ross, director of the Hunger Games films, blatantly ignored the chance he was given to put a minority actress up on the big screen. Like many people involved in the media world, Mr. Ross fell prey to a terrible sickness, a disease that has been affecting the film industry since day one. Known as whitewashing, this affliction can be seen when movie producers and directors change the race or ethnicity of a character. Although it can be used to describe situations where a white or Caucasian character has been changed to represent a minority, whitewashing usually refers to instances where a character of color has been recreated to represent the white “majority” of America. The casting call that went out for Katniss left no wiggle room or space for questions. The actress trying out for the lead role of the trilogy “should be Caucasian, between ages 15 and 20, who could portray someone ‘underfed but strong,’ and ‘naturally pretty underneath her tomboyishness.’”
quote:There was controversy surrounding this since Jennifer Lawrence is definitely *not* a person of colour.
Yep, and as much as I love Jennifer Lawrence, I wish they had stayed true to the book on Katniss's race.
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quote: It evidently first appeared on TOR, so Jim Hines was commenting on it and the discussion that followed. I
Jim Hines is voicing a fringe view. Nothing more, nothing less.
Every position has one. If you're against guns, you can find some nut on Youtube exposing extreme pro-gun rhetoric. If you're against gun control, you can find a fringe view to dismiss the argument of the other side.
To me, it's telling that when a debate about diversity comes up, you pull up Jim Hines, who represents less than 1% of the population.......
Sorry I have to comment on the rest later but to this comment of yours.
I didn't mean to imply that the diversity side has a lot of people in it. They are just noisy and when you include the non writers who also push this mind set they have media clout. Yet still not a large group compared to the rest of the population.
Jim isn't the only one there is also Mary Robinette Kowel who joins with Jim at times. She doesn't talk about it as much as Jim, but still it's there.
And there are others who sometimes post on Goggle+ also, but I haven't kept up with their blogs.
You however wanted an address to the blog I referenced in an earlier post so there it is.
As to old age characters, you do have a point about Fantasy, even though I believe there is less even there than there has been in the past.
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posted
Actually, Collins herself says that Katniss isn't supposed to be biracial.
quote: COLLINS: They were not particularly intended to be biracial. It is a time period where hundreds of years have passed from now. There’s been a lot of ethnic mixing. But I think I describe them as having dark hair, grey eyes, and sort of olive skin. You know, we have hair and makeup.
In the interview, Collins states that in her post-apocalyptic world of Panem, “a lot of ethnic mixing” has occurred, but also that Katniss and Gale are not biracial. She does not attempt to answer Entertainment Weekly’s question about whether or not she understands “fan dismay” about the casting.
That makes Peeta's blonde hair and blue eyes even harder to understand, however, since even in America today, genuine blonde hair is rare, and blue eyes is a recessive trait.
quote: Blue eyes are indeed becoming less common in the world. One study showed that about 100 years ago, half of U.S. residents had blue eyes. Nowadays only 1 in 6 does.
What is happening in the U.S. will undoubtedly happen throughout the world as well. Especially as Europe opens itself up to more immigration. This is one of the reasons blue eyes are becoming less common in the U.S. -- immigration.
The odds of Peeta having both blonde hair and blue eyes after hundreds of years of interracial marriages seems almost astronomical.
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posted
Recessive traits don't just disappear. Two heterozygotes mating have a one in four chance of having a child with a recessive phenotype. Don't make me pull out my Punnet squares.
ETA: If I remember correctly, eye and hair color are linked genes (on the same chromosome). So blue eyes and blonde hair tend to go together unless there is a cross over (same with brown hair and brown eyes). Although this might be an oversimplification since hair and eye color is probably rather complex. But it is not unbelievable from a genetic standpoint for some blue eyed and blonde hair remaining in the gene pool.
But the story clearly states that the wealthier part of district 12 is white, so I'm not really sure what Collins is talking about in her statement about decades of racial mixing.
quote:But the story clearly states that the wealthier part of district 12 is white, so I'm not really sure what Collins is talking about in her statement about decades of racial mixing.
I think she took a calculated risk. Making it definite that Katniss isn't white might not stop the novel from being a success, but making it definite that she's a woman of colour very well might hamper its chances, particularly if you have your sights on the narrative being looked at by Hollywood for a potential movie deal.
She could have easily described Katniss as dark skinned with curly hair and been done with it, but she decided for olive skin, which could be European even though the description is usually reserved for Asians, and long black hair.
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quote:Originally posted by Grumpy old guy: Denevius, imagine a virulent, mutated strain of sickle-cell anemia that is 100% fatal--all peoples of middle eastern ancestry would be wiped off the face of the planet in on fell swoop.
I was going to let this go, but now that I'm on my science kick, I just can't. Sickle-cell anemia is a genetic disorder. In fact, it is a single amino acid change in one of the subunits of the protein hemoglobin which causes the defective subunits to stick to each other resulting in a sickle shape of the red blood cells.
quote:But the story clearly states that the wealthier part of district 12 is white, so I'm not really sure what Collins is talking about in her statement about decades of racial mixing.
I think she took a calculated risk. Making it definite that Katniss isn't white might not stop the novel from being a success, but making it definite that she's a woman of colour very well might hamper its chances, particularly if you have your sights on the narrative being looked at by Hollywood for a potential movie deal.
She could have easily described Katniss as dark skinned with curly hair and been done with it, but she decided for olive skin, which could be European even though the description is usually reserved for Asians, and long black hair.
Yeah, I thought she just wanted Katniss to racially ambiguous which is probably why her answer to the question is also rather ambiguous.
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