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Author Topic: Omn's Tears -- fantasy first 13 & hook
AstroStewart
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Any suggestions on my first 13 lines and/or brief query-letter synopsis are welcome, though what I would really appreciate is some feedback on a partiel (first 3-4 chapters, roughly 20-30 pages).

This novel is complete (well, in the 3rd round of editting, anyway) at roughly 114k words.

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Query-letter-style synopsis/hook:

The Adiran Enforcers used to be an organization of justice and peace, but when Captain Ryon begins asking too many questions about his recent missions, his eyes are finally opened to the brutality of his fellow soldiers and superiors alike. Now the very people who have long been his comrades-in-arms have become the enemy.

Kain never cared about another living soul in his life. But when the Enforcers hire him to track down the last remaining dragon in Adira, for the first time in his dragon-slaying career he finds himself at a dragon's mercy, bargaining for his life. Forced into helping this dragon track down the information she wants, Kain finds himself in a web of trouble, the least of which is his captor.

But when Ryon, Kain, and company meet an enchanting woman from a mythical realm, they finally discover the truth: the Emperor, in his lust for power, is on the verge of unleashing a disastrous magic that may unravel all of creation. The only way to save their world is to find the remnant power of the Creator, himself: Omn's Tears.

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First 13:

“So I say again, it was no accident. They murdered my boy. We killed them for it. Justice is done.”

It took a few moments for Ryon to fully digest the implications of the man’s story. It couldn’t possibly be true, could it? What kind of person would murder a child in cold blood? Certainly none of the enforcers he commanded could be capable of such villainy.

Behind him, Ryon could hear the uneasy shuffling of the enforcers nearest him. The nearly abandoned town was utterly surrounded, with only a handful of rebellious townsfolk remaining, and they were holding weapons that had gone unused for years. Some were only equipped with shovels, hoes, or other farming implements.


[This message has been edited by Kathleen Dalton Woodbury (edited February 28, 2007).]


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Kolona
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Astro, I'd suggest tightening the query. First thing I noticed were the 'buts,' but ( ) also superfluous words like 'finally.' You might add a word of transition/differentiation to the second paragraph, since I thought Kain was Ryon's first name, and that you were speaking of the same character. In fact, I was going to suggest adding 'Kain' to Ryon's name in the first paragraph till I read the third paragraph and discovered they were two different people.

Some people hate this sort of suggested rewrite, but an example is worth a thousand words of explantion.:

The Adiran Enforcers used to be an organization of justice and peace, but when Captain Ryon begins asking questions about his recent missions, his eyes are opened to the brutality of his fellow soldiers and of his superiors. The very people who have long been his comrades-in-arms have become the enemy.
Elsewhere, Kain never cared about another living soul in his life. When the Enforcers hire him to track down the last remaining dragon in Adira, for the first time in his dragon-slaying career he finds himself at a dragon's mercy, bargaining for his life. Forced into helping this dragon track down the information she wants, Kain finds himself in a web of trouble, the least of which is his captor.
When Ryon, Kain, and company meet an enchanting woman from a mythical realm, they discover a world-threatening truth: the Emperor, in his lust for power, is on the verge of unleashing a disastrous magic that may unravel all of creation. The only way to save their world is to find the remnant power of the Creator, himself: Omn's Tears.

In your first thirteen, I would have liked some sense of scene, some details interwoven into the action. I felt as if I had opened a book and started reading somewhere other than the beginning, and that I should already know Ryon, rather than that I was being introduced to him.

I'm not a fantasy reader, but since I've come this far, I'd be willing to read the first three chapters. The good news/bad news is that, despite my disinterest in fantasy, I'm willing to read more -- but that's because of the query, rather than because of the first thirteen lines. I'm curious to see if the story can deliver on the promise of the query.


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kings_falcon
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On the query, it needs to be tightened up and tell me a bit more. You don't tell us the ending and you need to.

My reactions:

The Adiran Enforcers used to be an organization of justice and peace I'd stop the sentance here. You have my interest.
, but when Captain Ryon begins asking too many questions why? What is he asking? Who is he asking about his recent missions what missions , his eyes are finally opened to the brutality didn't he notice all the rape and pillaging before now? of his fellow soldiers and superiors alike. Now why now? the very people who have long been his comrades-in-arms have become the enemy How? Did they try to kill him? .

Kain who the heck is this never Boy did I get dinged for this when I did it. Don't use the negative if you can avoid it. Tell me he only cares about his own self-preservation cared about another living soul in his life. But when the Enforcers hire him why him? Why not use some of their soldiers to track down the last remaining dragon in Adira is that someplace different from where we were? Are there dragons other places, for the first time in his dragon-slaying career he finds himself at a dragon's mercy, and bargaining for his life. Forced into helping this dragon track down the information she wants which is what? , Kain finds himself in a web of trouble is he Spidy? Cliche alert , the least of which is his captor Who captured him? When? Is the dragon a web? .

But when Ryon, Kain, and company when did they meet and who is the "company" meet an enchanting woman from a mythical realm oh just tell me who she is , they finally discover the truth: the Emperor who is this now? , in his lust for power cliche alert. Don't they all lust for power? , is on the verge of unleashing a disastrous magic just tell me what it is that may unravel all of creation Why? . The only way to save their world is to find the remnant power of the Creator, himself: Omn's Tears. How does this help them?


In a Query, everything has to be clear. Check out my query thread to see how long it took me to polish mine.

Just tell me.

Miss. Snark summarizes the starting point for queries as:

X is the main guy; he wants to do:
Y is the bad guy; he wants to do:
they meet at Z and all L breaks loose.
If they don't resolve Q, then R starts and if they do it's L squared.

Focus on your MC. If it's Ryon tell me what causes him to question his life. What is his primary conflict? How does it end? Who is the antagonist?

Also, why would the Emperor want to destroy the world he controls?

So

X (Ryon) wants to expose the brutality of the Adiran Enforcers.
Y (the Emperor?) wants to cement his control over the world by creating a magic based ultimate weapon. Then what?


If you want to send me more details I'd be more than happy to help out.

[This message has been edited by kings_falcon (edited February 26, 2007).]


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AstroStewart
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The problem with Miss Snark's query formula, is that there is no single MC in my novel. There are 3 main protagonists: Ryon, Kain, and Saira--the mythical supernatural woman from a magical realm.

While Kain and Ryon are perhaps "more" of main characters, there is literally no picking between them as far as who is more important to the storyline, or who gets more POV chapters. So how am I supposed to cut down my query and only talk about the "MC" when there are multiple such people?

Also, as far as "just tell me," I was under the impression that, in query letters, you want to avoid completely confusing the reader. Introducing a hundred proper nouns / made up magical devices / etc is not the way to do it. Most of the portions that you suggested "just tell me" would each require another paragraph to explain in enough detail to make any kind of sense.

Basically, I know that query hooks (this is not supposed to be a full synopsis, which would give the entire story complete with ending) are supposed to be as concise as possible, but I can't seem to figure out how to do so (more so than I already have) when my story begins with 3 seperate storylines that merge in the middle (Kain, Ryon, Saira). Especially because there aren't really "main" storylines. All the characters are crucial to the plot.


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AstroStewart
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Incidentally, and forgive my inexperience in the F&F forum ediquitte, but Kolona, does "I'm not a fantasy reader, but since I've come this far, I'd be willing to read the first three chapters" mean you would be willing to look at a partial, and I should email it to you? Or were you speaking in hypothetical, if you picked a book up at a bookstore or something?

Same question to kings_falcoln with "If you want to send me more details I'd be more than happy to help out."

I guess I just wanted to check first, as both of you seemed willing ot help more but didn't specifically say "email me a partial."


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kings_falcon
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"email me a partial"

Actually, for help on the query a general outline of the entire story would probably let me help you better.

If all three are integral, let me know that up front. This is why Miss. Snark's starting point is just that a start. The formula still works though.

Something like - but not as cliche as -

"Kain, Ryon and Saira are an unlikley treo to save the world from the machinations of the evil Emperor. Ryon a former member of the Emperor's elite enforcment squad wants revenge. Kain, the dragon-slayer, must appease the will of the last dragon he tried to kill and failed. Saira is a traveler from a mythical relm who _________."

Now I'm all set to focus on what happens to them.

Yes, don't confuse us but make sure to tell us everything that we need to know so that what you do say is clear.

In trying to simplify my first draft query that I put up here, I'd managed to distort the story line because I left too much information out. Like doing the first 13, it's a tough line to walk. You DO need to tell me the ending in the Query though. The agent is going to want to know that there is a satisfying conclusion to this story.


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wbriggs
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In the Imperial Space Navy, [because I don't know if we're doing space opera, a contemporary military drama, or a medeival swordsman story] The Adiran Enforcers used to be an organization of justice and peace, but when Captain Ryon begins asking too many questions about his recent missions, his eyes are [finally -- can omit] opened to the brutality of his fellow soldiers and superiors alike. Now the very people who have long been his comrades-in-arms have become the enemy.

Kain [Who's Kain?] never cared ...

OK that was play-by-play. My impression: too long. If this is to fit into a letter, you need something really succinct.

The first paragraph could be something like "Captain Ryan of the king's marshalls [note I use description rather than name, so I don't have to explain], disillusioned with the brutality of his superiors..."

So you could end up with something like

Captain Ryan of the king's marshalls, disillusioned with the brutality of his superiors, and Kain, a royal dragon-slayer now working to help one of the last dragons, find that their concerns about the king are worse than they thought: ...


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wbriggs
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First 13: I want to know who says the first line; and I want to know where they are no later than paragraph 2.

I'm not hooked by this, but I think I could be. I need to know the significance for Ryon. I think you're telling me in paragraph 2, but I don't believe it. "Waht kind of person would murder a child in cold blood?" He seems too naive to be a commander, if he thinks that.


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AstroStewart
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"First 13: I want to know who says the first line; and I want to know where they are no later than paragraph 2."

Ok, so if you're asking these questions, I guess the answers weren't apparent from the text, but I did include this information. The second line refer's to "the man's story." The idea I'm trying to get across, is that this local man -- referred to only as "the man" or "the farmer." He is never given a name that Ryon knows of -- is the speaker in line 1. The idea is also that he just finished telling "the story."

The entire point of the 3rd paragraph is to establish the setting, now that the reader (hopefully) knows that the local man's story is upsetting to Ryon (who commands some number of soldiers). "Behind him, Ryon could hear the uneasy shuffling of the enforcers nearest him. The nearly abandoned town was utterly surrounded, with only a handful of rebellious townsfolk remaining, and they were holding weapons that had gone unused for years. Some were only equipped with shovels, hoes, or other farming implements." Does this not place our hero in a mostly deserted town, with some soldiers on his side and some rebellious townsfolk standing opposed to him?

Basically I think I'm just kinda confused, because the things you mention that need fixing, I honestly thought I already had in there... How could I make these points more clear, if they weren't already?


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Kolona
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I guess I could have been clearer, Astro. Yes, please send me a partial.

My understanding of the synop portion of a query is that it should not belabor the details (the actual synopsis often sent with a query is more detailed, though still usually one page), but the query synop should give, as agent Donald Maass said, "one colorful detail." So simply ‘magic’ might be fine, if there’s another detail that’s more important than that. If the magic is the most unique aspect of your book, then you might want to be more specific and give it a few more words.

But ‘magic’ is not a superfluous word in any case, while a word like ‘finally’ is. Getting rid of space-hogging words will buy you more room for the important details.

Conversely, "Behind him, Ryon could hear the uneasy shuffling of the enforcers nearest him. The nearly abandoned town was utterly surrounded, with only a handful of rebellious townsfolk remaining, and they were holding weapons that had gone unused for years. Some were only equipped with shovels, hoes, or other farming implements" seems like a skeleton of a scene that needs some meat, some richer detail so the reader can picture this.

As it stands, I'm not sure if this is a modern town or a backwoods one (or am I to assume that since this is a fantasy the town looks like one from Lord of the Rings?), if the Enforcers have spears or futuristic weapons, and if I'm going to connect with Ryon. A little fleshing out is needed.


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wbriggs
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How you could make this clearer: ordering. I don't want to spend a couple of paragraphs feeling confused about where I am; the more time I spend confused, the less I enjoy the story. I'd rather know up front where we are, and any other relevant info.

This might work (below). We find out where we are, who's the MC, why he's there (actually that should probably be moved earlier). We find out who "the man" is ("villager angry about something," basically). We don't get the villager *repeating* something he said before the story began ("So I say again...") -- we get the info when he does, and then we get his reaction. (If the villager is repeating himself, we'd get the reaction *before* the repeated words, which would be the right order for Ryon but would confuse us.) The ordering still may not be perfect, but I think it's better.

quote:

Behind him, CAPTAIN Ryon OF THE ??? FORCE could hear the uneasy shuffling of the enforcers nearest him. The nearly abandoned town was utterly surrounded, with only a handful of rebellious townsfolk remaining, and they were holding weapons that had gone unused for years. Some were only equipped with shovels, hoes, or other farming implements.

“It was no accident," THE ANGRY VILLAGER HE WAS INTERVIEWING SAID. "They murdered my boy. We killed them for it. Justice is done.”

It took a few moments for Ryon to fully digest the implications of the man’s story. It couldn’t possibly be true, could it? What kind of person would murder a child in cold blood? Certainly none of the enforcers he commanded could be capable of such villainy.


[This message has been edited by wbriggs (edited February 27, 2007).]


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AstroStewart
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I think my brain is going to explode now.
Let me explain.

Originally, my novel started when Captain Ryon was just *about* to enter this town, contemplating what might lie in store, and wondering the nature of the rebellious townfolk. It was rich in detail, beginning slowly to build suspense, explaining the setting more clearly, giving a description both of our MC and his men. It had too much exposition. When it came time to send a query to my very first agent, who happened to have a "send a query and first 5 pages" submission guideline, I realized that Ryon had only just entered the town by page 5. Nothing had HAPPENED!

As I examined feedback and my first chapter, which was about 10 times slower than the rest of my novel, bogged down with exposition, I realized I was giving the reader too much information all at once. I kept reading about how to write a good opening, and how you should give the reader bits at a time instead of info-dumping it all at once. So I started cutting. I also decided that all the fluff of going in to town, surrounding the town, and convincing the leader of this rebellious town to actually come out of his boarded up house to confront them was all unnecessary.

Maybe I cut too much...
So I began the story at the precise moment where everything changes for Ryon, when he hears this man's story, believes him, and finally opens his eyes about the men he's been serving with/under.

Originally, if you'd believe it, wbriggs, my opening paragraphs were in the order you just suggested, because that's what made sense to me as well, initially. I started with the reaction to the man's story, then delved into Ryon's mind to see his personal reaction to it, and so on. But after submitting this opening chapter to a critique circle, I got a lot of confused readers by starting off with a reaction before anything is said. They all felt like this wasn't chapter 1, like there was some text they were missing, like the started out in the middle of something.

So I added the line of dialogue at the beginning to let the reader that someone ("the man") just finished telling his tale of vengeance against his son's killers, hoping, this way, the rest of the beginning, revolving around the reaction to this story, made more sense/ did NOT confuse the reader.

My intention *was* to start out in the middle of an important scene, because the build up to that point doens't really matter. as much, and I wanted to make sure SOMEthing of note actually happens in the first page/few pages. Clearly it's just harder than I thought to pull off such a mid-scene trick. It's far more difficult than I thought, as it turns out, to know exactly how much information the reader can extract from my words, because as the author, everything is perfectly vivid in my mind.

Originally, this meant that I was laboriously spelling out every detail of what I saw in my mind's eye. Repeating myself. Lots of exposition.

Now I seem to be leaving too much description OUT of the very beginning.

Maybe this is a discussion I should bring to the general forum, instead of confining it here... how much detail needs to come in at the very beginning, and how much just bores the reader away?


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kings_falcon
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On the first 13 -

It seems to me that you have a bit of the problem I do in my novel. From what you've posted here (and I haven't had a chance to read the partial yet), the story really starts when the three MCs start on thier dragon appointed mission. What comes before that sounds like character development/backstory. You might consider startig where Kain meets the dragon which should be an action set up and move from there. We'll learn why Ryon left the Enforcers when Kain and he interact. We'll learn about Saira's involvement as she joins the group.

Ignoring everything except the first 13 -

I still think you are in the wrong place because there is no hook yet.

Ditto Wbrigg's comments (Oliver, I beat you to it. )

Also, I don't know who the "they" that murdered the villager's child is. I don't know if they are other Enforcers or a rival clan. Is Ryon investigating the murder of other Enforcers?

You have a showdown that could become a massacre - villagers with inadequate "weapons" surrounded by edgey Enforcers but none of that tension bleeds through to the writing.

Okay, off to read the partial and get some answers to questions I would have otherwise asked.



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DebbieKW
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I agree that wbriggs suggested opening is a clearer start sequence. I found that having a strong sense of location from the very beginning helped me to understand what was going on much faster.

quote:
So I began the story at the precise moment where everything changes for Ryon, when he hears this man's story, believes him, and finally opens his eyes about the men he's been serving with/under.

When I was reading your 13 lines, I thought that this scene was what got Ryon to start questioning things and that he would operate as usual (i.e. arrest/kill the farmer) until something happened where he couldn't deny that he'd been wrong about his fellows...or that he started noticing that his fellows weren't as noble as he had assumed. But you say that this scene is that final Big Change event, so now I'm wondering why Ryon believes some peasant farmer who is trying to weasel out of getting killed/arrest when you have also established that Ryon totally believes in the uprightness of his men and those he serves with/under. You'll have a hard time convincing me that Ryon goes from completely-in-the-dark to enlightened solely based on the story of a stranger who also happens to be a criminal that killed his fellow Enforcers. I'd expect Ryon to be angry and thinking of revenge instead of coaxing a criminal to come out of his house, calmly listening to his story, and then actually believing him. Why bother to ask at all? He's not a judge, is he?

If these questions are answered within a page or two, then that's fine. Otherwise, you'll have lost me as a reader because it's too unbelievable.


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Kolona
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I'll have to backpedal here a bit, but doesn't the "finally" suggest that the meeting with the farmer is only one of a series of events, and that maybe Ryon has been reluctant to reach the logical conclusion until this particular meeting forced his mind to go where it needed to go?
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DebbieKW
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I've been thinking. You can convincingly start at this point and still make it the moment of the Big Change if:

quote:
It took a few moments for Ryon to fully digest the implications of the man’s story. It couldn’t possibly be true, could it? What kind of person would murder a child in cold blood? Certainly none of the enforcers he commanded could be capable of such villainy.

becomes something like

quote:
It took a few moments for Ryon to fully digest the implications of the man’s story. It couldn’t possibly be true, could it? What kind of person would murder a child in cold blood? Certainly none of the enforcers he commanded would commit such villainy. Ryon had his doubts about the rest of the enforcers, and this farmer's story appeared to confirm those doubts.

Otherwise it reads as Ryon being totally and completely certain of the morality of his fellow Enforcers, and I can't grasp why he's so willing to believe the farmer's story.


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AstroStewart
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The answer to why Ryon would believe this farmer appears a page or two in. Later in the story be become fully-introduced to a race of people prone to telepathic ability, although they are somewhat rare in this particular region where Ryon starts out. However, in Ryon's group of soldiers today, there is one person of this race of people. The "big scene" that changes everything is when this soldier lets the Ryon know that this farmer's story is true. (It ends up being slightly more complicated than just being able to read the man's mind, but Ryon is convinced, nonetheless.)

The idea is not supposed to be that Ryon goes from "completely in the dark" to enlightened, but that he's been essentially closing his eyes until now, not wanting to see the ugliness around him. This scene is the proverbial straw that breaks the camel's back for him. That is why it's important.

In fact, when he finally opens his eyes and realizes these townsfolk are telling the truth, and he decides NOT to punish them for killing enforcers, there is a clear reaction from his men, who were expecting some blood. This leads to more unpleasantness for Ryon relatively soon, as the higher-ups learn of his reaction.

Hopefully all of this would make sense if you had the complete first chapter before you. In the heat of the moment, Ryon doesn't have time to ponder on his previous doubts, but before the chapter is over we get all the information I've said here, including Ryon's doubts about the Enforcers, and rumors he had blindly disregarded, etc.


As far as kings_falcon's comment about the story really starting when the three MCs meet, that's not quite true. For one thing, much of what happens in the meantime is very important, for reasons that come in to play later in the novel. Also, the three main characters don't even meet until 1/3-1/2 way through the novel. (Cutting out the "backstory" would cut off half the story) As such, the first significant portion of the story IS ABOUT them trying to find the answers to their various questions, all of which revolve around the Adiran Enforcers.

What I'm trying to say, is that the novel is set up so that the first half or so is about our various heroes struggling to determine the problem to begin with. The Emperor and the Enforcers are becoming "the big bad evil" if you will, but for what purpose? Once our heroes finally do discover the answer, and in the process all meet, then the other half of the novel is about the solution.

I think my biggest problem is just the very beginning introduction of each main character. Giving enough information so the new character and scenery makes sense, but streamlining the infodump enough to hook the reader into that storyline.


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kings_falcon
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Astro,

I've done a quick read of the synposis and partial. Let me get my thoughts together over the weekend and I'll send you via email some detailed comments.

But

quote:
I think my biggest problem is just the very beginning introduction of each main character. Giving enough information so the new character and scenery makes sense, but streamlining the infodump enough to hook the reader into that storyline.
is about right.

You definately have the same issue I do in King's Falcon. The information is too much to be a prologue and, in your case, not out of time with the rest of the novel but there is information you need to convey. I'll email you some general thoughts shortly.



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DebbieKW
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quote:
The answer to why Ryon would believe this farmer appears a page or two in.

Okay, then I'm happy to say that you can ignore my advice about showing Ryon's doubt in the first 13 lines. For a novel, I give the author a couple of pages to make motives and such clear, and your brief explanation of why Ryon believes them is convincing. I also what to apologize in case I came across as overly pushy in my critique. I was very tired yesterday, and it wasn't until I woke up this morning that I realized I could have phrased my comments better, so: "I'm sorry."


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Kolona
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Still, Ryon's doubt needs a better presentation from the start, so I think you were onto something, Debbie.

(From where I sit, I didn't think you were pushy at all. )


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AstroStewart
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You were just stating your opinion based on what you had read. Not pushy, just honest

As it turns out, my very first draft had the exact problem you mentioned. I had Ryon believe the farmer-man becasue well... if he didn't then the story wouldn't begin. lol. I very quickly realized the very point you were making though. He needs a *reason* to believe, especially if he's been turning a blind eye towards these transgressions up until now.


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