Hatrack River Forum: Friends should not ask friends

This is topic Friends should not ask friends in forum Books, Films, Food and Culture at Hatrack River Forum.

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Posted by romanylass (Member # 6306) on :

to read their teenager's first attempt at fiction, and give them an honest crituque. [Wall Bash]

Posted by littlemissattitude (Member # 4514) on :

Ouch.

Posted by TMedina (Member # 6649) on :

Oooh, ouch. Tough one.

Good luck.

-Trevor

PS Just don't tell me she didn't ask you on a dark, stormy night...

[Big Grin]

Posted by bunbun (Member # 6814) on :

I'd advise being very thorough and very honest and prevent another incidence of this behavior.

"Well, little Chucky's poem is super trite and unfortunately he's packed everyline with cliches. I hate anything about kittens, anyway. Does he like football?"

Posted by Dragon (Member # 3670) on :

[Evil Laugh]

are you sure they're your friend?

Posted by quidscribis (Member # 5124) on :

Yeah, I like the advice of being thorough and honest. [Big Grin]

I doubt you'll ever get asked again.

Posted by Orson Scott Card (Member # 209) on :

Don't think about the PARENT, think about the teenager.

All that's needed is encouragement. "I can see he/she has a lot of talent, and if he keeps at it, who knows what could happen. Is he sending his work to professional editors? The worst they can say is no, and they're the only ones whose critiques actually matter."

Then, the next time you're asked, just say, "No, thanks. I have so much to read already, and the only critique that matters is from professional editors anyway. Start mailing out those stories/poems/recipes!"

The only way to make it stop is, of course, to say no and mean it. That consists of refusing to take the manuscript into your hands, and NOT EXPLAINING. "I don't critique manuscripts," you say. "Why?" they say. "I don't critique manuscripts," you say. And you keep saying it. If they start to get angry, you can say: "So is our friendship contingent on my obeying your demnd that I do something that I choose not to do? Are you going to end our friendship over this?" "I just want to understand why!" "First, I think you should examine why you are demanding that I perform this service." It can be unpleasant, but DO NOT BEND. Nobody can make you critique a manuscript if you really don't want to do it.

But don't, please DON'T, punish the poor kid by giving a devastating critique.

Besides, how do you know YOUR critique is accurate?

And how do you know that there might not be talent there, once the kid gets older; and your "thorough, honest" critique might stop a very talented artist from emerging, because he's now ashamed to let anyone see his work?

Critiquing young artists is a grave responsibility. Refuse to do it, or do it kindly; don't use a critique as a means of punishing someone for daring to ask you to read an amateur's work.

[ April 17, 2005, 04:25 AM: Message edited by: Orson Scott Card ]

Posted by jebus202 (Member # 2524) on :

Oh and what makes you think you've got what it takes to make critiques?

Just because you're a successful, published author doesn't mean you have any clue about writing.

[ April 17, 2005, 04:48 AM: Message edited by: jebus202 ]

Posted by quidscribis (Member # 5124) on :

I hang my head in shame.

OSC is right.

I was wrong. [Grumble]

Posted by King of Men (Member # 6684) on :

That all depends. Probably quite a lot of people here want to be published authors themselves. There's only so much market share to go around. So utterly blasting a talented writer, causing him to go into the burger-flipping line, is a Good Thing (tm) for all the Hatrack wannabes, who now have one less competitor. So who do you care more about, the child of some random friend, or Hatrack? Say something nasty!

Posted by Eduardo_Sauron (Member # 5827) on :

KoM, you're soo evil and cold-harted! [Mad]

Wanna be my friend? [Evil]

Posted by King of Men (Member # 6684) on :

I'm not cold-hearted, I just have my priorities straight. What do I care about the child of someone who isn't on Hatrack?

Posted by Foust (Member # 3043) on :

There's always the fact that the same advice can be given to both good and bad writers: Keep at it.

Posted by Belle (Member # 2314) on :

Foust, that's a good point.

I would also refuse, politely.

"Sorry, but I really don't think I'm the best person to do a critique. For one thing, I don't like to take on that type of job unless I can do it properly, and devote the kind of time to it that I should. Right now I don't have that kind of time.

The best advice I can give your child is to keep working at it. Most writers aren't proud of their first work, but the best way to get better is to keep trying."

Posted by Orson Scott Card (Member # 209) on :

KoM, writers aren't in competition with each other. We're in competition with sports, videogames, dvds, tv shows, conversations, and naps. And ANY writer who can convince someone that reading a book is fun and rewarding benefits us all, because then that reader will seek out MORE books. Maybe mine.

Good writers give us a bigger pie - a larger audience of eager readers. We all have a shot, then, of getting a bigger slice of the pie. But a great videogame IS competition because it is addictive and takes people away from reading.

Posted by King of Men (Member # 6684) on :

Possibly you didn't spot the implicit tongue-in-cheek smiley in that post.

Posted by Teshi (Member # 5024) on :

In most stories you can find some good point that you can say "They did this right, but..."

Does your friend believe it's very good?

Posted by romanylass (Member # 6306) on :

I think I will do what OSC said.

I don't at all feel qualified to critique it. And this is my very best friend, the one who has quite literally dropped everything and called in to work to help me out, and calls me from work to check up on me. I think she is just bursting with pride and wants me to be too. He's a very intelligent boy, and I don't mind her sharing his report card. I just don't think I could give an honest assesment without hurting them both.

But really, who would rather nap than read

Posted by Speed (Member # 5162) on :

quote:
...writers aren't in competition with each other. We're in competition with sports, videogames, dvds, tv shows, conversations, and naps.

And Hatrack. Don't forget Hatrack.

What manner of evil have you wrought upon would-be novel readers? [Evil Laugh]

Posted by Elizabeth (Member # 5218) on :

"But really, who would rather nap than read"

I am getting of an age, combined with a recent illness, where it is not a choice.

Posted by Boris (Member # 6935) on :

quote:
What manner of evil have you wrought upon would-be novel readers?

Don't forget about the would be novel writers [Smile]

Posted by ketchupqueen (Member # 6877) on :

Hatrack takes me away from my reading. Mr. Card, you've created your own competition here!

Posted by Zeugma (Member # 6636) on :

I'm getting the feeling that critiquing writing is a lot different than critiquing something very visual, like animation. With my stuff, I spend maybe an hour or two working on it, then three hours trying to find as many people as I can to tear it apart, then spend another half an hour implementing their suggestions. I think most of my classmates are the same way.

Is it that writing is more personal to the author than animation is to the creator? Or that writing is more open to different interpretations, while animation pretty clearly works or doesn't?

Posted by quidscribis (Member # 5124) on :

Um, no. When I ask for critiques on my writing, I want to know everything that's wrong with it in as much detail as possible. It's the only way to learn how to write better and to improve the work. But then, writing isn't just for play for me - I'm serious about it. I would like writing novels to turn into a profession.

Here, we're talking about critiquing the writing of a young person who may be crushed emotionally by too harsh a crit. Possibly better to give encouragement. [Dont Know]

Posted by Zeugma (Member # 6636) on :

Hmm... so when does a person pass from needing encouragement to needing honest critique? After they've written a decent amount, or after they leave home, or what?

Here's a question... if a high schooler gets nothing but encouragement and falsely positive critiques, then goes to college and gets nothing but honest and somewhat harsh critiques, doesn't that do more to hurt his ego and enthusiasm than simply letting him know where he stands early on? Not to be devastatingly cruel about it, there are plenty of ways to give a negative critique cushioned by positives, but don't you want the young writer to know that he's improving?

Posted by Zeugma (Member # 6636) on :

"Hey, X! This is one of the best stories I've ever seen from someone still in high school! Great work!

The only things I noticed were this, that and the other thing. Changing them to read more like such and such might really kick this up a notch. Also, the overall structure could be even better if you made it more like blah blah blah.

Overall, though, this is a great start! Can't wait to see more!"

Posted by Scott R (Member # 567) on :

You know, encouragment and honest critique can live together. . .

Posted by quidscribis (Member # 5124) on :

Yup, I agree. Just . . . tread carefully, perhaps.

Having said that, I've encountered a lot of writers looking for a pat on the back, but don't want honest crits. They just want to be told they're fabulous. Then they wonder why they can't get published despite lack of character development, coherent plot, and spelling, punctuation, and grammar errors.

[Dont Know]

Got to find a balance in it. With professional writers, it's easier, in my experience. They tend to take the crits with less apparent emotion and more interest in actually improving the work.

Posted by Elizabeth (Member # 5218) on :

"Is it that writing is more personal to the author than animation is to the creator? Or that writing is more open to different interpretations, while animation pretty clearly works or doesn't?"

There are many things I want from a critique now, that I did not even know I wanted when I first joined Group 6 on Hatrack.

I definitely had to be ready for it, and it was a tough thing for a bit. Then it was fun, and I got to the point of saying, "Have at it!" It helped so much.

However, then I got to a point with my story where a writing teacher, who is a published writer herself sent me to a friend of hers who writes historical fiction.

For some reason, what she said totally blocked me from writing for the last two years, almost. I was writing a story based on Gilgamesh, and she brought up these points that a publisher would, about treading carefully with the religion, and all sorts of other things.

I realized how far from my story that would take me, and I realized that I had no interest in being a published writer.

I am sure it is more complicated that that, but that is how I look back on the fact that I haven't written a wrod since having a high end critique. She loved the work, and thought it had great potential. I think it was the reality of it maybe becoming something that frightened me. I am really not sure.

Posted by katharina (Member # 827) on :

I have to admit, there's nothing worse than writing something becuase you were encouraged to and then getting it torn apart. That happened with the one informal Hatrack writer's group I was in. I joined at urging, wrote something that I finally sort of enjoyed writing and didn't hate, and then it was ripped apart. I was mad. That is probably proof of my unprofessionalism, but then, I never started out to be one.

My guess is that if the parent is asking people to critique it, they probably encouraged the writer to write it or show it. If a writer wants critiques on their own, they'll find a way to get them.

No, I haven't written anything since beyond the joke poetry in threads here and you can be sure I won't be showing it to anyone when/if I do. Critquing and encouraging early writing is a tender position to be in.

Posted by Elizabeth (Member # 5218) on :

I think there is a huge difference between critiquing and tearing a piece apart. I am sorry that happened, Kat.

Posted by katharina (Member # 827) on :

Eh, it might have been more gentle than I percieved - I mean, it might not have been as thorough a tearing apart as it felt like.. I just wasn't ready for any criticism, and had only written it under encouragement of the person who critiqued it. I was so mad.