I was wondering...is it wrong for me to wish I still did drugs and was a carefree teen without child and another on the way and a wife...and things I need to keep paying on and supporting a family and being a grown-up...I remember drugs...they made me happy...less angry...happy So go ahead and talk about what weak person I am and the crutches I need but...this forum just doesn't compare to running around naked in the woods on mushrooms.
Posted by Ralphie (Member # 1565) on :
I've always thought the use of too many elipses was the sign of a disturbed mind.
You may not need mind-altering chemicals, MacBeth.
Posted by Bob the Lawyer (Member # 3278) on :
*blinks*
Look, I realize that you may be yearning for drugs because they symbolize your youth and all... but you yearn for yo yos or disco music or Cheetos or something?
Posted by TomDavidson (Member # 124) on :
"is it wrong for me to wish I still did drugs and was a carefree teen without child and another on the way and a wife...and things I need to keep paying on and supporting a family and being a grown-up..."
My best friend -- the best man at my wedding -- has just left his wife after cheating on her with a married woman for two and a half years. He has two children, and I'm sure he ALSO got to missing the drugs, the late-night concerts, the random flirting, and the ability to quit his job without having to worry about paying the bills.
Sometimes I miss some of those things, too.
But I'm still married. I still pay my bills. And I still catch the occasional concert.
If you cop out, make no mistake: you're copping out, because you weren't man enough to cut it. That may make you happy, but it ALSO makes you less of a man -- and you'd have to live with that, I'm afraid.
Posted by MacBeth (Member # 5670) on :
I know I know but....*thinks of plausible excuse* damn...I know and thats why I stopped all of that... but ahhh for the old days..
Posted by Danzig (Member # 4704) on :
Responsibility sucks, does it not? I do not blame you at all, but your duties to your family have to come first.
Posted by Danzig (Member # 4704) on :
How do they make you less of a man, Tom? Stopping because of responsibilities is all well and good, but if you do not have any, why on earth is it wrong? That is a very arrogant attitude.
Posted by Ralphie (Member # 1565) on :
Leaving your responsibilities to selfishly pursue a lifestyle you promised not to live anymore?
How does that NOT make you less of a man?
Posted by Danzig (Member # 4704) on :
Tom seemed to be talking about all drugs, all the time, not just this instance. I thought I made it reasonably clear that I agree MacBeth should stay off if he has responsibilities that require it, but apparently not.
Posted by jehovoid (Member # 2014) on :
Tom was speaking in that same context.
MacBeth, I don't think you'd be able to go back to being a profligate any more than I'd be able to go back to being a toddler. But it's okay. Grown ups have a whole nother world of cool stuff to do.
Posted by popatr (Member # 1334) on :
I use elipses in my normal speech. I guess that cuts it--I'm disturbed.
But heck yeah, I can sympathize. I have never used drugs, slept around, or even attended rock concerts. And I haven't even taken on the biggest responsibilities of life yet.
But I remember days as a kid, where I didn't have to stress about anything. Even later, when I got into school, I had summers long enough to give me bliss for a while. [sighs]
I'll never, ever, feel that summer feel again.
Posted by popatr (Member # 1334) on :
Posted by Ralphie (Member # 1565) on :
quote:But I remember days as a kid, where I didn't have to stress about anything. Even later, when I got into school, I had summers long enough to give me bliss for a while. [sighs]
I'll never, ever, feel that summer feel again.
Now, THAT I can totally sympathize with.
Posted by Scott R (Member # 567) on :
I'll bet that at the time you didn't think your life was stress free.
Posted by Tresopax (Member # 1063) on :
quote:But I remember days as a kid, where I didn't have to stress about anything. Even later, when I got into school, I had summers long enough to give me bliss for a while. [sighs]
I'll never, ever, feel that summer feel again.
Why not?
[ September 16, 2003, 09:23 AM: Message edited by: Tresopax ]
Posted by jehovoid (Member # 2014) on :
Why not?
"Hey, Boss, I think I'm just gonna take this summer off, ride bikes with my friends around the neighborhood, watch cartoons, and drink lemonade."
"Well, okay. Do you still want your regular salary?"
"Yeah, sure. That'd be great."
Posted by Tresopax (Member # 1063) on :
I'm not asking about why can't you quit working, drink lemonade, ride around with your friends, and still get paid. (Although keep in mind you could do that, except for the pay part.)
I'm asking why you won't ever be able to go a summer - or a year - without stress?
Posted by jehovoid (Member # 2014) on :
Because I need it, baby. It's like a drug.
Come on! Just one more hit! Show me a credit card bill or something! Anything! Look at me, I shaking!
Posted by msquared (Member # 4484) on :
When I was younger,6-10 years old, my twin and I used to get into arguments about a whole lot of little things. Dad would come down and yell at us to stop bickering. He would say "Find something important to argue about." We thought we had. It was important to us. I don't tell my kids that when they are arguing. I do tell them to shut up becuase it bothers me.
msquared
Posted by BannaOj (Member # 3206) on :
I was more stressed as a child than I am now.
I'm still trying to handle the overload of stress from back then though...
I'm sure I have a disturbed mind...
AJ
Posted by Amka (Member # 690) on :
Retirement is just one big, long summer, I understand.
Also, teachers get a summer.
MacBeth: Since you have one on the way, I can only assume that your other one is still preschool age, perhaps older. Give up ALL your adulthood and play with the little one. See the world through their eyes. See how everything is new. There are so many states you can get yourself into that make you happy and make you more of a man, even... and the plus side is you are completely in control. If you need to be sober, then you are, immediately.
When your next one is born, I know she/he might look like a lump but interact. You'd be suprised at how social they are. And it has been clinically proven that sleeping babies are a relaxant: your heart beats slower and you have a higher level of endorphins. Heck, you can learn (and I encourage every parent of an infant to do so) to relax in the same way when they are colicky. They are really tuned to your stress level, and even though they might still be crying they'll be feeling the love too.
And marriage has its ups and downs. It might be particularly stressful for you right now, but it won't always be that way if you just stick with it and love your wife and children and do stuff with them.
Posted by popatr (Member # 1334) on :
Oh yes--if I get a good retirement setup, I might feel pretty cool about that.
But I assure you, I actually felt pretty stress free at the time. I remember at least the summers, because I hated school with my whole soul. I would practically melt once vacation came. And I really savored almost every moment. Sleeping in, going to friends, vegging (it was impossible to bore me), or even doing chores. The chores weren't bad and I was with the family I wuv.
If I did have stress over anything, which I'm not sure I did, at least of was the type that a person could forget in a few hours or days.
Posted by katharina (Member # 827) on :
I actually have very little stress. My job is low-pressure and rewarding, my living situation is only occasional tumultuous, I have more free time than I know what to do with, and I'm so completely free of stress that I've forgotten my coping mechanisms and flip out when something is actually difficult.
Not bad.
---------
Tom's right. Wanting less stress isn't bad, but if you take steps to rid yourself of the active fulfilling of your responsibilities, you're a weenie.
Posted by Dan_raven (Member # 3383) on :
Drugs and freedom v.s. That first smile of the new baby, or the sound of the older one calling you Daddy?
Don't forget, that cool Summer Off feeling was nice, but there are some things even better.
Posted by MaureenJanay (Member # 2935) on :
I never thought summer was all that great. Two weeks into it there's nothing new to do.
Same principle with drugs and carefreeness, etc. How long into a new "carefree" life before you start to realize you screwed up bad, and now there's no wifey to take you back, cause she's gone, baby.
For heaven's sake...if you are going to do something "carefree", buy a sports car, and don't even THINK about making your wife and kids pick up the slack that you couldn't carry.
Posted by odouls268 (Member # 2145) on :
thats why im never getting married, never having kids, never buying anything, and always staying wasted.
that- that..that was a joke.
Posted by Xaposert (Member # 1612) on :
It's bitter irony... When you have things you need to do you are stessed, but when you don't you are bored. Heh.
Posted by popatr (Member # 1334) on :
No, like I said, I'm practically impossible to bore. Oh, I suppose you could do it if you locked me up in a featureless room. But otherwise, I always found something to wonder about.
Posted by Xaposert (Member # 1612) on :
Impossible to bore? You obviously have not been reading my alter-ego's posts.... I'll tell him to work harder.
Posted by Chade Fallstar (Member # 5581) on :
The thought of going back to where I was as a teenager is almost as scary as the thought of staying where I am now for the rest of my life. I cannot imagine wanting to go back to doing drugs and being irresponsible. Does that make me crazy? I think not.
Posted by Tresopax (Member # 1063) on :
You know, I have to think that anyone resorting using drugs to fill their time couldn't have been too happy with their life.
Posted by wieczorek (Member # 5565) on :
Does every person do drugs as a teenager? Hmmm...I guess I've missed something. Posted by Danzig (Member # 4704) on :
Well Tresopax, you are wrong. Posted by popatr (Member # 1334) on :
Like I said, I never did.
Posted by MaureenJanay (Member # 2935) on :
Nope, I didn't. Max Headroom speaks, I listen.
"Be smart, don't start."
Posted by wieczorek (Member # 5565) on :
That quote's alot better than "Just Say No"
Posted by Erik Slaine (Member # 5583) on :
Well. Let me preface this, and keep in mind that I waited for everyone to say their piece in this thread before I threw it in...
I will never take drugs again, but I still long for those irresponsible twenties! And, before I continue, Kids: Don't do drugs!
Okay. I really know where MacBeth is coming from, and to prove it:
The difference between acid and 'shrooms:
When you are on acid, the world is full of creepy, crawly, tiny little insectlike creatures--and they're all out to get you!
When you are on 'shrooms, the world is full of creepy, crawly, tiny little insectlike creatures--
And you're one of them.
Posted by Ralphie (Member # 1565) on :
What if you don't take drugs, and you're still one of the world's creepy crawlies? Posted by Erik Slaine (Member # 5583) on :
Woo hoo! Natural High!
Posted by jexx (Member # 3450) on :
Aaah, Ralphie. Momma BuggaBugga loves the creepy crawlies! (was that Jenny Gardener? I don't remember)
Anyway, I tried drugs when I was younger and discovered that I was (violently) allergic to marijuana and speed made me sleepy. Cocaine just made me want more cocaine, and damned if that isn't just *wasteful*. It's illegal and just not that fun. *shrug* Also: expensive. I have better things to spend my money on (like books and cds! hee) than throwing up in someone's ice plants in La Jolla.
Whatever.
I was lucky to have an addict for an uncle (unlucky for him, I suppose, but he's sober now) and a mother who gave a crap about me. Drugs do ugly things to your brain, and I'm not pretty enough to get by on my looks.
I often feel trapped in my marriage and by my motherhood, but I made a commitment, and eventually I pass over into acceptance. It's a crappy day today, though, and tomorrow I will feel much better and positive about the whole thing. That's what's great about life. It continues to change.
Posted by Noemon (Member # 1115) on :
quote:Does every person do drugs as a teenager?
Nah, I didn't. I did get plastered when I turned 16, but other than that I didn't do anything, drug wise, as a teenager.
Posted by Amka (Member # 690) on :
I didn't take drugs as a teenager. Really suprising, isn't it?
Posted by katharina (Member # 827) on :
Okay, where are people getting these drugs in first place? For crying out loud, I went to high school in Houston, half my hang-out buddies had been through rehab by age 15, and I STILL didn't get offered drugs of any sort until I was at a KMFDM concert when I was NINETEEN.
I couldn't have done drugs if I'd wanted to. There was no peer pressure at all!
Posted by MacBeth (Member # 5670) on :
Mostly right...on acid you know everything but only for a little while and can't explain it coherently...On shrooms...well ok I agree you are not only not yourself but the world in which you know does not exist and you are one of the things that goes bump in the night...almost makes you feel like a predator...In a jungle kind of way...but mainly I just smoked a lot of pot. I never even gave much thought to alcohol...after seeing how violent and stupid people got..now I know someone is going to try to throw that predator line back at me...but in all fairness I have never seen anyone else on shrooms...or at least not directly paying attention to them. But in my mind weed was always a safer bet then alcohol. I just never heard any of the Got high and beat your wife stories that I hear about alcohol...It was more like get high go to sleep maybe watch a movie...whatever...uhhh I know I had a point when I started writing...Then again I suppose I did enough in my teen years for a whole life time...and in answer no not everyone does drugs as a teen...but if you are (which I am not advocating) As a teen is the only time in your entire life when youcan do so without such dire reprecussions
Posted by Danzig (Member # 4704) on :
People randomly offering you drugs everywhere you turn are for the most part an anti-drug propaganda exaggeration. Too bad. That is too dangerous for the dealer. If you are looking for them, they are not that hard to find, depending on the drug you are looking for. I do not recall ever being offered pot in high school, but when I decided to use it I had no trouble getting it. I just waited until I could be punished under the full extent of the law if I got caught. I wish now that I had smoked it a lot earlier, but I suppose it is for the best that I waited.
Posted by Ralphie (Member # 1565) on :
I have never, not once in my life, ever been offered drugs of any kind.
I've also never had a stalker.
I think people don't like the way I look, or summin'.
[ September 16, 2003, 10:23 PM: Message edited by: Ralphie ]
Posted by MacBeth (Member # 5670) on :
I have never seen drugs offered in a pressuring kind of way...If they ask you and you say no...they say More for me and drop it And I would think not being stalked means that youare at least an aproachable person even to sickos...hey is that why your always posting in my threads?
Posted by Ryuko (Member # 5125) on :
I've never taken drugs, either. But then, I'm still 18.. Drug dealers, you're running out of time!
Nah, though, I don't even like drinking caffiene or taking my asthma meds much...
Posted by MacBeth (Member # 5670) on :
I can't stress enough..if someone offers you any kind of pill...DON"T TAKE IT I include all things in that form Or snorting or shooting up. Your just asking for trouble with these mediums. I knocked a friend out one time when he told me he had smoked crack. He complained that we were friends and I told him thats why I did it. Sure by all legal standards I am insane from shroom and acid use...however..I never once had to worry about Dieing
Posted by TomDavidson (Member # 124) on :
*cringe* I'm about as anti-drug as it's physically possible to get, so this whole thread has taken a very depressing turn for me. Posted by MacBeth (Member # 5670) on :
Sorry about that Tom...but one of the freedoms of the BBS is to be able to say who you are what you have done and what you believe...without fear of local reprecussions.Then again with the anti-Terror laws in effect maybe the SWAT team is on their way already. I truely don't mean to offend anyone here.
Posted by Danzig (Member # 4704) on :
18 is when I started. 17 if you count alcohol, but I only drank two or three times then. I sort of wish I had smoked pot earlier, but not really, and I do not regret at all waiting for anything else. And if you do not want to use, that is fine with me, as long as you let those who enjoy it do so.
Posted by Erik Slaine (Member # 5583) on :
Watch out Danzig! I don't like the looks of that Ralphie! She's a bust!
Posted by TomDavidson (Member # 124) on :
I'm not one of those guys who believes that drug use is a victimless crime, Danzig. I've known too many potheads and dated too many crack whores to buy that one.
You guys want to wallow in freakish denial, go ahead. But don't expect EVERYBODY to smile and nod. *grin*
Posted by Danzig (Member # 4704) on :
It has (or should have) one victim, and while it is a legal crime for some drugs, it is not a moral one. Crack whores are one thing, but what is it to you if someone would like to smoke pot and not "go somewhere". That is only talking about the pothead stereotype as well; pot especially is around a lot more than you might think. As for crack whores, maybe they would not have to be crack whores if it was cheap and legal.
Also, this speech is still protected, as long as we are not actually conspiring to break the law.
Posted by Maethoriell (Member # 3805) on :
I'm a teen and I dont really get where you can get those things. If I was never told about them and was warned not to do it, I would've never known. Odd.
Posted by MacBeth (Member # 5670) on :
A guy who dates "Crack Whores" knows they are crack whores and still continues to date them is preaching about drug use I love it! Ahem with all due Respect Tom
Posted by Danzig (Member # 4704) on :
Once I actually understood the concept of drugs, the propaganda they fed us made me want to try most of them.
Posted by MacBeth (Member # 5670) on :
I was pretty content with shrooms acid and pot...although I'm not a fan of his I understand eminem has voiced similar preferences.
Posted by Ralphie (Member # 1565) on :
quote:Watch out Danzig! I don't like the looks of that Ralphie! She's a bust!
Am I the only one dumbfounded by the "taking drugs should only ever have one victim" argument?
Has anyone EVER known of A SINGLE user that only affected himself with his drug abuse? That ONLY made himself into a victim with it?
Posted by Danzig (Member # 4704) on :
Oh please. Leaving out those who are victims solely because of the illegal nature of most enjoyable psychoactive drugs, that is still an invalid argument. It is not the obligation of the user to make everyone who cares for them happy. I am very saddened that pretty girls, who may even be my friends, do not immediately ask me to spend the night, but that hardly qualifies me as a "victim".
If you want to appeal to emotions, how about those poor souls currently being raped in prison because they dared to smoke a joint? Or how about an actual measurable effect, such as the collateral damage of Alberta Spruill? What of Pedro Oregon Navarro?
Posted by Ryuko (Member # 5125) on :
So you're saying that the family of people who are so completely gone on say... crack... aren't victims?
Sure, mishandling of the law is to blame in those instances, but does that give anyone the right to hurt their families just for personal enjoyment? Not even mentioning the impact on their bodies or health at all.
Posted by Danzig (Member # 4704) on :
As far as your health goes, that is your choice. (Hence the one victim.) Go for it, but do not come crying to the government (or anyone else) if you destroy your body.
Do you mean spouses and dependents, or all family members? I hate to make my mother sad, but she does not depend on me for anything and I feel little guilt if she thinks it is wrong for me to drink. I owe her a lot, but I do not owe her everything. My father drinks a couple of beers fairly often, and last holiday season he was a little bit tipsy. Do I have the right to call myself a victim?
I do realize that some people let drugs totally take over their lives, to the point of neglecting responsibilities. That is why I said there "should be" only one victim. But drinking a beer, smoking a joint, or even hitting the crack pipe for to relax after work does not give me any sympathy for a family member who just cannot stand to let someone live their own life.
But wait, maybe I am just a horrible no good addict who is completely wrong, and I do owe it to anyone who cares for me (why limit it to family) to do whatever they say! Do you honestly think that making drugs illegal is the best way to do this? They are still here. They will not go away. Even if I am a despicable, worthless human being - scratch that, an addict - because I dared to smoke a bowl a few times, why make me unwilling to get treatment? As someone who was well on the path (if not already at the end) to a psychological addiction, I can tell you that I did feel that the costs of treatment were not worth the benefits. And I was using a drug that was legal to possess, which I would imagine makes it an easier task to seek treatment. I cannot imagine even considering going for treatment if I had even a psychological addiction to an illegal drug, much less a physiological addiction. If people really cared about any victims, perceived or actual, they would legalize all drugs.
Posted by TomDavidson (Member # 124) on :
"A guy who dates 'Crack Whores' knows they are crack whores and still continues to date them is preaching about drug use...."
Yes. Would you rather that a guy with no experience whatsoever with crack OR crack whores preach about drug use?
There are, of course, distinctions to be made between psychologically addictive drugs -- like pot and EverQuest -- and physiologically addictive ones, like cocaine or heroin. The danger, though, in EITHER case, lies in the addiction; that the drugs also happen to be generally illegal doesn't help, mind you, since the social effects of illegalization encourage a withdrawal from mainstream society and a disrespect for authority that only reinforce the addiction itself, but it's also the case that merely BEING addicted is itself harmful.
Danzig would argue that the harm here is only to the addict. In reality -- and leaving aside the thefts, deceits, and casual cruelties that are part and parcel of the drug user's experience -- that's like arguing that suicide only harms the person who dies.
Posted by saxon75 (Member # 4589) on :
quote:There are, of course, distinctions to be made between psychologically addictive drugs -- like pot and EverQuest -- and physiologically addictive ones, like cocaine or heroin. The danger, though, in EITHER case, lies in the addiction; that the drugs also happen to be generally illegal doesn't help, mind you, since the social effects of illegalization encourage a withdrawal from mainstream society and a disrespect for authority that only reinforce the addiction itself, but it's also the case that merely BEING addicted is itself harmful.
*cough*11,997*cough*
[ September 17, 2003, 10:45 AM: Message edited by: saxon75 ]
Posted by Farmgirl (Member # 5567) on :
MacBeth You seem to be focusing on the "good" ways you felt when you did drugs, and are totally forgetting the "bad." Do you remember how it felt to come off the drug? Do you remember how others around you felt about it? Do you rememer why it was you quit to begin with?
Looking back is always so nostalgic -- and we tend to forget the bad and remember the good, and that sometimes makes us lose our perspective....
Posted by TomDavidson (Member # 124) on :
In your face, space coyote. Posted by Farmgirl (Member # 5567) on :
TomD! What an uneventful post for your 12,000th!
Posted by Danzig (Member # 4704) on :
Okay, if you compare it to suicide you obviously are unwilling to change your mind on that, and I doubt I will be able to. Fine. For the sake of this argument, addiction can be harmful. Not everyone who tries a drug becomes an addict, however, and like it or not, not every "addict" (I doubt we will agree on the definition, so the word is in quotes) harms others. Are you arguing that those addicts who do are enough to make it worth being illegal? Making it illegal exacerbates the problem, and creates new problems.
Posted by katharina (Member # 827) on :
quote:I have never, not once in my life, ever been offered drugs of any kind.
The only I ever have been has been at seedy concerts that I attended out of sheer hero-worship for my gothicy, adorable best friend. Shocked the heck out of me.
Danzig, you're talking nonsense.
[ September 17, 2003, 11:01 AM: Message edited by: katharina ]
Posted by Danzig (Member # 4704) on :
Nonsense in saying that they are around, or nonsense in saying they should be legalized? Or both?
The easy availability might be a regional thing.
Posted by TomDavidson (Member # 124) on :
"Are you arguing that those addicts who do are enough to make it worth being illegal?"
Actually, you haven't seen me make any arguments about the legalization of drugs here, precisely because I think they SHOULD be legalized -- primarily for the reasons we've already touched lightly on. However, I also think decent human beings should shun, ostracize, mock, and belittle even casual drug users for fun and profit.
Posted by Danzig (Member # 4704) on :
Oh, sorry, I must admit that I jumped to a conclusion there. In my experience, most people who make your assertions are arguing for drugs to stay illegal. Still, that is not really an excuse.
I disagree with you, but as long as you think legalization is good you are free to mock me. Even if you do drink a brandy now and then.
Posted by saxon75 (Member # 4589) on :
You know, I was going to just stick to fluffy posts in this thread and not get all huffy, but I don't seem to be able to avoid it.
If you think that drug use does not routinely harm people other than the users themselves, then I respectfully submit that you are blinding yourself to reality in order to support your agenda.
However, if you think that recreational drug use cannot occur without harming other people, I respectfully submit that you are just as blind as the people you are arguing against.
Yeah, I've done drugs. I don't anymore. As far as I've been able to determine, I've never victimized anyone by my drug use. I admit that my drug use may have affected people in ways that I can't see, but at the very least I don't think I've harmed anyone directly. I don't steal, I almost never lie, and I do everything I can to avoid being cruel to others. This was as true during the time that I used drugs as it is now. Furthermore, very few of the drug users I know are or were cruel, deceitful or thieves, though I would be lying if I said none were.
I don't think using drugs is a smart idea. I also don't think making sweeping and offensive general statements is a smart idea. But what do I know? I'm just a stupid, cruel, deceitful thief.
Posted by TomDavidson (Member # 124) on :
"very few of the drug users I know are or were cruel, deceitful or thieves"
I'd like to say that it breaks my heart to know that there are exceptions to the rule, but it really doesn't. Glad you dodged that bullet.
Posted by Danzig (Member # 4704) on :
I know it harms people, especially the lower you go on the income spectrum. I just take issue with much of the same things you did. Yes, there were lots of potheads in my high school who were going no where fast. On the other hand, many of the smartest, most destined for success students used as well. It is easy to point at those who fail and say that can happen, but it is harder to not change that "can" into a "will". Honestly, I think crack will usually put you onto a path you do not want to be on. But not every person who uses drugs will use crack.
I know this will really draw out condescending, pseudo-pitying statements, but it must be said. I am a much nicer person when I am stoned. I really am. Oh, I can act nicely no matter if I am using or not, if it matters. But when I am stoned, it comes from the heart. Perhaps that makes me less of a person. Were pot legal, I would choose to be nice and lesser rather than greater and corrupt.
Posted by Bob the Lawyer (Member # 3278) on :
Sweet jebus, I don't know about people who do acid. I mean, better hope you don't lose any weight in the future, kids. Unless you're down with flashbacks and all.
Posted by MacBeth (Member # 5670) on :
One of the points that were made in this thread that not everyone who uses is addicted. I was never addicted to pot...I was never addicted to shrooms and I was never addicted to acid. The word recreational seems to fit. And to the Farmgirl...coming "down" off of pot? Uhhh you pretty much act normal coming"down" from shrooms? like slipping back INTO reality...same deal with acid. I never once did anything like crack and I feel the only reason it has been brought up in this thread is because of its NAKED danger both to addiction death and the ability to make TMI kids look like geniuses. I met my wife thanks to the excessive drug use going on at the bachelor pad I lived at. Not any of the crazy going to kill you drugs like Heroine Crack Cocaine Ketamine X-stacy or any such pill nonesense. By and large we were Potheads. Sure there were the alcoholics among us. Like my buddy rich who would routinely get so drunk that he would ask people to just kill him. Never once have Iseen someone on pot or acid or shrooms show such intended personal disregard for themselves. You talk about watching someone who needs help because they are hurting the people around them...look to the legal drug of alcohol and leave the grass smokers be.
There is no truth that can be told so as to be understood and not believed. -OSC
Posted by TomDavidson (Member # 124) on :
"I met my wife thanks to the excessive drug use going on at the bachelor pad I lived at."
Well, I suppose that's ONE way to do it.
Posted by MacBeth (Member # 5670) on :
Much better then going to a CRACKHOUSE WHORE! One thing to the un initiated of drug use to understand is that potheads are some of the most forgiving non-judgemental folks around. Its not "normal" to be into swordfighting its not "normal" to be 175 lbs and grappling and beating guys twice your size. I was never a "normal" kind of guy and I hated mainstream goodie goodie "normal" people. She was and is right for me. We have both given up that lifestyle...but if I hadn't beem engaged in that kind of situation I would NOT have met her. Would NOT have had our daughter Jazmyn. Would NOT have another due in February. And in all likelihood I would not be HERE at ALL! Laugh if you want but fate does have a skewed sense of humor...I suppose thats why a straight arrow like yourself kept finding yourself in the company of crackwhores huh?
Posted by saxon75 (Member # 4589) on :
See, this is exactly the reason I was going to stay out of this argument. Why do so many pro-drug people feel the need to degenerate their arguments into ad hominem ridiculousness?
Posted by Farmgirl (Member # 5567) on :
MacBeth, My post was in reponse to your ORIGINAL post, and in that post you didn't clarify that you were only talking about Pot. Otherwise I would not have made the comment about "coming down."
I plead guilty to using pot when I was much much younger for a short time. It is different than other harder drugs.
But my point remains the same -- since you are having "fond memories" of pot, you also need to ask yourself why you decided to no longer do drugs, and if those reasons still are true, then they will also be the reasons you decide to not return to drugs.
Farmgirl (who is not being judgemental at all -- I'm a been there, done that).
Posted by TomDavidson (Member # 124) on :
"Much better then going to a CRACKHOUSE WHORE!"
I wholeheartedly agree. Which is why, when I married, I did not marry the crack whore.
As a side note, the girl in question did not start out as a crack whore, somehow unworthy of love or respect. *rolls eyes* She was, when I first met her, merely a pothead and occasional LSD user; she was heavily into psychedelic drugs by the time we started dating, but it was my hope that this was just a "phase" she was going through as a way of avoiding a very nasty family situation.
However, like the vast majority of druggies I have known -- and contrary to my hopes -- she wound up spiralling rapidly downward, and her introduction to harder drugs basically sealed the deal. I'm glad you and your friends managed to avoid this, believe me, but you're not representative of my anecdotal experience.
Posted by Danzig (Member # 4704) on :
At the risk of sounding trite, the plural of anecdote is not data.
Posted by Danzig (Member # 4704) on :
That said, crack is notorious for quickly bringing down people who have been happily using other drugs for years- up to and including heroin.
Posted by UofUlawguy (Member # 5492) on :
In connection with this whole topic, I highly recommend Phillip K. Dick's A Scanner Darkly. It is very, very loosely autobiographical in that Dick was really into the 60's drug culture in Berkeley, Cal. The book is dedicated to all his dead or damaged friends.
If I hadn't already decided against ever trying drugs, this book would have decided me.
UofUlawguy
Posted by MacBeth (Member # 5670) on :
As an attorney (you not I) I understand that you would have a prediliction to upholding any law that happened to be passed...however upon quickly scanning your post my wife replied to me that she would kick you in the face if she ever met you in person. The idea that you have dedicated your life to sheltering yourself from the world...frankly makes my head spin. there is the old adage don't knock it till you try it. though I admit there are a number of things I haven't had to do to know that I do not want to do them.
Posted by Danzig (Member # 4704) on :
Uhh... I do not think that is exactly what he said MacBeth.
Posted by UofUlawguy (Member # 5492) on :
Mr. MacBeth,
1. I did not say anything to or about either you or your wife.
2. I said nothing about anybody's choice to use drugs except for my own.
3. I simply gave a recommendation of a book about drug users. The book itself isn't even judgmental. Dick makes clear that he doesn't think there is anything morally wrong with taking drugs. He definitely criticizes drug enforcement laws/agencies/programs. His only really vicious condemnation is of those that produce dangerous drugs or push drugs on others, knowing the damage they can do.
4. I don't think we've even met. So, I'll let your rather bewildering comment roll off me and say, "How do you do? Pleased to meet you."
UofUlawguy
Posted by UofUlawguy (Member # 5492) on :
As for the lawyer angle, I'll share an interesting happening from law school. (keep in mind I only graduated three years ago)
In my Criminal Law class, our ancient professor addressed the chapter on drug laws by having us divide up into pro- and anti-legalization camps, with the five undecideds as judges. The two sides had an entire class period to convince the judges of their position. Two surprising (or maybe not) results:
More people signed up for the pro-legalization side than the anti-.
Four of the five judges ruled in favor of the pro-legalization position.
I was the lone dissenting judge. Okay, I'm a square.
UofUlawguy
Posted by Farmgirl (Member # 5567) on :
MacBeth seems to be going a little paranoid or bi-polar on us here...... maybe he's already *using* as he writes. Touchy!
(preparing for his flame...) Farmgirl
Posted by pooka (Member # 5003) on :
I know that pot is so non addictive that my first boyfriend decided to dump me rather than give it up. Which of us is the jerk? I don't know. Though the fact that he thinks he dumped me and not the other way around shows that we were in different realities. He was also into acid and shrooms. I never found out much about it, though I did try an alcohol drink once.
I think my favorite part was when he came back from his first year at college and confessed to me that he had been doing drugs all year when he had lied to me and said he was merely drinking. (emasculates mental voodoo poppet)
Posted by Chade Fallstar (Member # 5581) on :
I'm just guessing here, I haven't been on this board for that long of a time, but I think I probably have more perspective on the whole drug use issue and who it hurts than 99% of you. If you want me to explain my life story and where drugs have left me and my friends and family and the general neighborhood where I am living, then you can talk to me online, or ask Ralphie about it. I think she will confirm that I may know what I'm talking about.
That being said, drugs are incredibly destructive, and not just to the people who use them. They are destructive to entire neighborhoods, they change the way you think and feel, they destroy families and relationships, and most importantly they destroy the individuals who take them.
I understand your argument that it is not your responsibility to keep people happy and if others choose to not respect your choice to engage in an illegal activity that is their problem. I've been in that stage too. Most of the people I come into contact with are in that stage as we speak. It just isn't true though. Look at it this way, this will offend you but it's what I have to say, if you are using drugs you are most likely a fairly selfish and self-involved person as it is. So you probably don't have a full scope of who's problem it is anyway.
I'm knocking it and I've tried it. I've been to the bottom of the barrel. I've engaged in drug use at every level that is possible. I've watched people's lives destroyed and I've seen the pain it causes to those outside the user who you feel shouldn't be affected.
I'll tell you this, if you feel that a drug that is illegal shouldn't be illegal, then that is fine. Get out and work to make it legal. That's the way the system works. If you don't like the propaganda you have been shown, make you own propaganda to throw right back at it. There are plenty of organizations around that you can get involved with to change the laws. However, and this is a big however, until such time as your organization is succesful in changing those laws, it is illegal to do that drug. So when you are arrested for it, no matter how injust it may seem to you, it is still justice. You broke a law, you deal with the consequences.
Once a new law is passed to make it legal for you to smoke or shoot up or whatever it is that's you thing, then go right ahead and do it all you want. It will still have all the negative consequences it had before, but you won't be doing jail time for it if you get caught.
Until that time, lay off. I know you won't, I'm being entirely to preachy to actually get my point across to any of you. But I do know what I'm talking about. Drugs aren't the answer to anything. They've ruined uncounted lives just down the street from me, and thousands and thousands more across the country. Don't let you fool yourself, regardless of who you think you are hurting, you are affecting everyone around you. There are consequences to that and they are your fault, not someone else's for being intolerant of your illegal behavior. Take drugs if you wish, I can't stop you, but take responsibility for the consequences of that action too. Don't blame everyone else for your problem.
::steps off soap box and promises to never make a serious post again::
Posted by MacBeth (Member # 5670) on :
No flames Farmgilrl serious. UofUlawguy: I simply passed on the message that my wife told me when she read the comment. Of course she does have a habit of saying the first thing that comes to her mind. I have heard stories of folks goin wacky from acid...part of the reason I was more into shrooms. I gave up drugs as part of being a liscenced RDA. There are certain images that one must uphold. However the fact that I am still not hired anywhere as an RDA made me rethink my stance a little. However I have other reasons for not using that have not been mentioned yet. Such as Cost. Availability...stay out of the game long enough and you lose contacts. And the much more popular answer Responsibility to myself and my family.
Posted by Danzig (Member # 4704) on :
Why should I not complain about unfair laws? That is one way they get changed. An unjust law is an unjust law, and if I am prosecuted under that law I am the victim of an injustice. Drug users are where racial minorities were and homosexuals are just coming out of.
Posted by MacBeth (Member # 5670) on :
All things in moderation. One can drink Alcohol and not be a gutter lying drunk. One can smoke a joint every month or two and not bring his family to a screeching halt. One can enjoy the benefits of shroom use...lets say on the 4th of July without it having to become part of his daily routine. True some people do not know their limits. Or for that matter place limits at all. But there are those who do use things such as that in a responsible manner. I feel that most of the CON posters have a habit of posting as to the negativity of the EXTREME response. Which is not indicated in any of my previous postings.
Posted by Chade Fallstar (Member # 5581) on :
I never said not to complain, in fact I believe I encouraged you to go join a group to get the law changed.
Posted by Chade Fallstar (Member # 5581) on :
As to your post about only reflecting to extreme ends of things, I mentioned that I have been through or been close to someone who has been through every level of drug use that is possible. While using drugs only occassionaly does not cause as many or as extreme a problem as daily use, it still causes problems.
Posted by MacBeth (Member # 5670) on :
Only if you get caught! Posted by Chade Fallstar (Member # 5581) on :
Actually no, I wasn't referring to jail time either.
Posted by Danzig (Member # 4704) on :
Daily use of DXM (month on, month off, month on) caused problems for me.
Daily use of marijuana (two months on) solved them.
I do not deny your experiences, but they are not the case for everyone. As for changing the laws, I said nothing about that part because I agree with it. What I disagree with is you calling something "justice" because it currently is the law.
Posted by MacBeth (Member # 5670) on :
Neither was I! Posted by saxon75 (Member # 4589) on :
quote:I think I probably have more perspective on the whole drug use issue and who it hurts than 99% of you.
Respectfully, I will have to disagree.
Now, wait for the rest of it.
My disagreement with that statement in no way diminishes my respect for your opinion or the profundity of your experiences. And, as I said before, I don't think drugs are a good idea. My issue is really only with your word choice.
See, perspective means being able to step outside of one's own circumstances and see the bigger picture, see both sides of a situation. And while you certainly seem to have been around the block a few times, I would still say that your experiences have left you with a completely warranted emotional association.
No matter how awful drugs and drug users can be, saying that they are destructive without qualification is just not true. In order to show a statement to be false you need only find one counterexample (but this is not the same as saying that one counterexample proves the opposite statement).
Darn it, I don't want to be on this side of the argument. Because drugs can be horribly bad. I just want there to be some honesty in the discussion. Darn darn darn.
Posted by MacBeth (Member # 5670) on :
Thank you for your unwavering impartiality on this topic saxon. believe it or not it is nice to see at the least a semi-neutral perspective. This is one of those topics like religion or polotics where opposing sides are generally polarized. Saxon rules.
Posted by Danzig (Member # 4704) on :
Yeah, I have to agree with saxon. Experience, sure. Perspective, frankly it seems saxon has shown the most of it.
I doubt I have seen as much as you, but I have seen a few things. I just see no reason to bring them up, as they are not really about me.
Posted by katharina (Member # 827) on :
And we have another WeLoveSaxon thread!
Posted by Danzig (Member # 4704) on :
I must admit I laughed at that. Posted by Ralphie (Member # 1565) on :
saxon - His wording may have been slightly egotistical, but I would not invalidate his post based on it.
He has had experience not only being a user, but also receiving pain from other users. He's had first-hand experience with what drug abuse can do to an entire family unit.
While he may have a very emotional connection to all of these experiences, that does not mean he cannot also look at them without a measure of objectivity. In fact, I'd say someone who wanted to prevent repeating the mistakes that cause such tremendous pain to their heart WOULD take a step back to see how they got there, gain some perspective, so that they could prevent reoccurance.
I know you were simply objecting to his taking a stance of expertise, which can be off-putting, but that doesn't mean he isn't an expert on it.
[ September 17, 2003, 04:26 PM: Message edited by: Ralphie ]
Posted by MacBeth (Member # 5670) on :
I did like the bottmless pit one better though. I used to think of things like that but not with the mathematics included. How staggering. His brain must be the size of comic guys rear.
Posted by TomDavidson (Member # 124) on :
Saxon, the problem with your equivocation is just that: it's equivocation.
"Drugs can be awesomely bad," you say, "but some people avoid bad effects." This is apparently not grounds to say that it's UNIVERSALLY bad to do drugs, in the same way that one could claim that it's not universally bad to go without wearing a seat belt.
Posted by saxon75 (Member # 4589) on :
On the contrary, Toni, I was in no way objecting to his stance of expertise. He certainly seems to be an expert in the negative consequences of drugs, drug use, and drug culture. And I was not at all disagreeing with what his conclusions were. Drugs are bad for you, and they can ruin your life and the lives of those around you.
My only point was that a claim of perspective should be accompanied by an honest look at both sides of the argument, with an acknowledgement of the truth and falsehood of both sides.
See, this is why I don't like where I am in this thread, because even people with whom I normally communicate very well will misunderstand me and think that I'm saying things I don't intend to say.
[ September 17, 2003, 04:38 PM: Message edited by: saxon75 ]
Posted by Ralphie (Member # 1565) on :
Oh, I'm sorry Mike. I didn't mean to misunderstand your post.
I feared that Chade's personal experience would be invalidated by nit-picking a choice of wording, and I may have jumped the gun. (My fears not necessarily being true.)
You're right - perspective is gained through objectivity, and I know you agree with the sentiments in his post. I was simply worried that your post would strip Chade of any semblance of objectivity which, I know for a fact, he very much has.
My apologies.
[ September 17, 2003, 04:42 PM: Message edited by: Ralphie ]
Posted by saxon75 (Member # 4589) on :
Tom, the difference is that I am NOT saying that drugs aren't bad for you. I'm merely asking people to honestly evaluate the truth of the statements they make.
See, there's a huge difference between facts and conclusions. I have not disagreed with any of your conclusions. I have merely pointed out that some people seem to be unaware of or dismissive of some of all of the facts, and that this has led them to make blanket statements that I find offensive.
Posted by saxon75 (Member # 4589) on :
You can say I'm equivocating, and maybe I am, but how is that any intellectually worse than using hyperbole?
Posted by TomDavidson (Member # 124) on :
I'm not using hyperbole. I quite firmly believe that drug use is universally bad, not least because it constitutes a deliberate rejection of conscious self.
Posted by Danzig (Member # 4704) on :
quote:it constitutes a deliberate rejection of conscious self.
First, how so? I seem to recall being conscious on every occasion I have ever used drugs. With one unintentional exception (alcohol black out) I was conscious the entire time.
Even if you are right, why is this alleged "deliberate rejection of conscious self" a bad thing? Whatever drug use constitutes, it is not permanent.
Posted by TomDavidson (Member # 124) on :
"Even if you are right, why is this alleged 'deliberate rejection of conscious self' a bad thing?"
Because our conscious self is what makes us human. While I wasn't directly addressing the specific issue of drug use when I said that abrogating responsibility made someone less of a man (which started this whole subplot, actually), I believe deliberately turning one's back on human awareness -- even temporarily -- does exactly that: it makes you less human.
Posted by Sweet William (Member # 5212) on :
When teaching kids about drugs, I think it is very important to be absolutely straight with them.
You can make blanket statements such as "drugs are always destructive." Then they always come upon one person who has done drugs with no ill effects, which can put the lie to everything else that you have said to them. It is better to say "most people will find that drug use ultimately screws up their lives. Of course, there are those few who don't get screwed up. Do you know for certain that you are one of those people? If not, why take the chance?"
"Some drugs can help your performance at different things at first. Cocaine might give you more energy. Steroids probably can give you bigger muscles. It's only down the road when your health is ruined by steroids, or when you need cocaine just to feel normal (forget any extra energy) that you realize that the initial buzz just wasn't worth it."
If drugs were 100% awful and destructive from the get go with no payoff, we wouldn't have a drug problem. Initially, there is something that people get from drugs. Something that brings them back and gets them to keep using until they get addicted. We have to acknowledge that that something exists, but getting it doesn't make up for the suffering at the end.
Posted by saxon75 (Member # 4589) on :
quote:aside the thefts, deceits, and casual cruelties that are part and parcel of the drug user's experience
Tom, saying that drug users are cruel, deceitful thieves without qualifying that statement in the slightest is hyperbole. Honestly, how much would it have hurt your argument to put a "typically" into that statement?
Posted by Danzig (Member # 4704) on :
Makes us human? I can infer that from your original statement; it is nothing more than a paraphrasing of such. Why is being "less human" so bad, how is one "less human" after the drug wears off, and do you have any response to my first (and in my opinion more relevant) question?
Posted by TomDavidson (Member # 124) on :
"Why is being 'less human' so bad...?"
Your mileage may vary. If you have no problem being subhuman, that's fine.
As to your first question, it's largely a semantic quibble. By "conscious self," I'm not referring solely to situational awareness. Posted by Danzig (Member # 4704) on :
Neither am I.
Besides, less is more. Posted by pooka (Member # 5003) on :
Man, the search sucks, I just have to say. Okay, I'll have to find this manually.
Danzig wrote:
quote: how about those poor souls currently being raped in prison because they dared to smoke a joint?
You said that like it was a bad thing. Who is close minded now?
Posted by Sweet William (Member # 5212) on :
If you have no problem being subhuman, that's fine.
Okay, that was a bit snotty (IMHO), and believe me, I am the king of snotty.
I think what Danzig might have meant was: "What is so bad about getting somewhere outside of normal human experience from time to time."
Response to my self-constructed straw man: Nothing, I guess. I just think that the long-term "payback" doesn't justify the short-term "payoff."
Posted by Danzig (Member # 4704) on :
False equivocation, so let me just say:
On the issue of prison rape? I am.
Posted by Sweet William (Member # 5212) on :
Not big into cruel and unusual punishment, eh?
Posted by Danzig (Member # 4704) on :
Sweet William, that is what I meant, but I was willing to phrase it in his terms. And Tom was being snotty, but through (non-current) use of drugs I have learned that that is ok.
[edit] And no, not so much.
[ September 17, 2003, 05:33 PM: Message edited by: Danzig ]
Posted by Chade Fallstar (Member # 5581) on :
Whoa sorry folks. Ralphie can stop defending me and everyone else can stop cutting down my poor word choice (I hate using smilies, but I felt that this situation needed one or else people would think I was trying to be mean)
Anyhow, my word choice was bad on a few things, for that I apologize. I wrote quickly and said what was on my mind without thinking of how it might read. I didn't mean to come off as some sort of snot because I have had experience on both sides, I merely said it to stop the "dont knock it if you haven't tried it" guys from saying that my case was irrelevent because of my experiences. Looks like it actually worked the other way around.
As for perspective, yes saxon I do believe I have alot of it on this subject. In fact, I think this is one of the very few subjects where I am an expert. I've been on both sides and I know what both are like. It has had a lot of emotional things for me along the way, but I do feel like at this point I can step back and look at it objectively to see how everything worked. It's been long enough for that sort of self-reflection without letting the emotions cloud my view of things.
I am sorry that I said drugs were always always destructive. Yes, there are some cases where the users may not experience any sort of negative effect from the drugs. However, this is not the case most of the time. Some people are immune to pepper spray, but that doesn't make using pepper spray a non-effective form of self defense.
Bad analogies aside, the main points of my post still stand. And by the way Tom, I agree with nearly everything you've said. Shirking responsibility does indeed make you less of a man, as does drug use.
Posted by saxon75 (Member # 4589) on :
Thanks, Chade. I hope I did not come off as smug or dismissive; I definitely did not mean to belittle your experience in any way.
Posted by Chade Fallstar (Member # 5581) on :
No problem saxon, I was in a rush and I should have read back over what I was saying.
Posted by saxon75 (Member # 4589) on :
So, Tom, do you have any comment on what I said to you?
Posted by Danzig (Member # 4704) on :
I might, might, be willing to buy that it makes you less human while you are using. Maybe. Probably not. After it is over? Assuming no permanent brain damage, how?
Posted by MacBeth (Member # 5670) on :
Which is why teenage years are the only times in your life when you can get away with drug experimentation/use . No responsibilities very little reprecussions.
Posted by jehovoid (Member # 2014) on :
[/Preface] After reading this thread, it's made me think of my own attitude towards drugs. I have to talk for a few paragraphs before I get to it, but there is something illogical about my thinking that nonetheless governs my approach to it. This is off-topic and very long on an already long thread. But anyway... [/endPreface]
For some reason, I draw a line at alcohol. I drink. I don't smoke or do anything else. I barely even take other legal drugs like advil and cold medicine. I don't drink coffee, either.
As far as not taking something if I have a headache or a stuffy nose, I just don't because I'm not a freakin' wuss.
With smoking cigarettes, I don't do it because my dad does. We were always strongly warned against smoking cigarettes as kids. To my surprise, my brother and sister have actually tried it once or twice. I just never wanted to. It might be partially because of something I saw as a young, impressionable kid. There's a scene in Pinocchio where he smokes a cigar and turns green. I remember remembering that scene as a kid. So maybe that is in my subconscious. It might also be because I'm not compelled to be accepted socially (not that many of my friends ever smoked).
Coffee. My friends were never big coffee drinkers, and I just don't need it right now. Something about drinking coffee makes me think of middle aged people who've lost their youthful spark. Every now and then I have to pull an all-nighter, or drive when I'm sleepy. Coffee has been a friend at these times.
Alcohol. Maybe I just grew up in an environment where it was okay to drink it. Maybe I'm just comfortable with my ability to handle it. It's also a social thing. If my friends watched a lot of movies, I'd probably watch a lot of movies. My friends drink, so I drink with them. Shared experience is what friendships are based on. There are people who hang out with us regularly that don't drink like we do. I do not feel as close to these people. Drinking is also a test of manhood. It says, "Look at me. I'm so strong, I can poison myself." I guess it's for these reasons that I feel that drinking is an okay way for me to alter my state of consciousness.
For some reason, smoking pot is a lot different. Not to mention the others that have been brought up in this discussion. I said that my friends drink alcohol, and so I drink with them. Well, my friends smoke pot, and I've been offered numerous times, but I've never once been even close to accepting. There've been times when I didn't want to drink, but was talked into drinking anyway (many, many times). But it's as if I've set up some kind of invisible barrier between alcohol and pot that I simply won't cross. I don't feel that smoking is any worse (morally, physically, legally) than drinking, but it's different enough to keep me away from it. I'm pretty sure it all stems back to how I was raised and my personality in general (i.e., I'm familiar with some of the effects, and I think that I don't need any help in experiencing those).
(edit: this is so long I just got tired of writing it and hit reply)
[ September 17, 2003, 05:59 PM: Message edited by: jehovoid ]
Posted by Danzig (Member # 4704) on :
Nothing wrong with that. I do not smoke cigarettes (although I have tried them) even though many of my friends do, and I did not smoke pot until I felt like it.
Posted by jehovoid (Member # 2014) on :
Yes, there's certainly nothing wrong with resisting peer pressure. But it's just that I feel it would be wrong if ever I smoked pot, whereas having a drink is not only acceptable, it's a good, healthy thing to do.
Posted by MacBeth (Member # 5670) on :
But you stated yourself that people would go out of their way to get you to poison yourself with alcohol...Peer Pressure... now did your pothead friends press the issue? I think not. But courtesy has them ask before they smoke around you whereas the drinkers are pressuring you into being like them. just a thought.
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So go ahead and talk about what weak person I am and the crutches I need but...this forum just doesn't compare to running around naked in the woods on mushrooms.
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A guy who dates "Crack Whores" knows they are crack whores and still continues to date them is preaching about drug use ![[Evil Laugh]](graemlins/evillaugh.gif)
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(I hate using smilies, but I felt that this situation needed one or else people would think I was trying to be mean)