If LDS people don't venerate saints, then why are they so often gaga over Santa?
I'm trying to figure this out because as an LDS person, I'm shocked at how often I run across people who want their kids to believe in Santa as a magical elf that brings them presents. They say it's part of childhood.
Maybe it's because my Dad wanted us to thank him when he bought us a present.
Maybe it's because my Mom raised us to hold stupid people in disdain. In which case it would be bad for me to feel this way.
[ December 16, 2003, 02:46 PM: Message edited by: pooka ]
Posted by Dan_raven (Member # 3383) on :
I am not Santa Claus, but I play one every weekend in December. Hey, its a nice $75/hr gig. The more veneration thrown in my general direction, the better.
Seriously, despite all chestnuts I almost choked on when I watched "The Year Without A Santa Claus" and heard those immortal words, "Santa is sick so I guess we'll have to cancel Christmas." Santa does have a use.
Santa represents things besides mass marketing and CocaCola.
Santa, for young children, represents a world where nice people exist to do patient giving things without asking for a thing in return. Santa is innocence and trust and faith.
Some talk about Big Brother Santa who punishes the wicked. That isn't the root of the Santa myth. Every child knows Naughty and Nice doesn't really matter.
Faith, not in Santa Claus, but in the goodness of people, is what the kids find in that fat old elf. In religious terms, Santa is a bit of "The Garden" that arrives once a year, and that jaded, tired, adults will kill themselves in order to perserve for thier children.
Once you quit believing in Santa, your time in the Garden is over. Slowly, painfully, tearfully you are thrust into the real world, the cruel world.
Posted by aspectre (Member # 2222) on :
If the world were intrinsicly cruel, there wouldn't be a Santa. Santa isn't venerated. He's a reminder that life is as pleasant as adults choose to make it.
Posted by Ayelar (Member # 183) on :
I like Futurama's Santa Claus. The one that required a "Parental Discretion" warning before the Xmas special aired.
"Your mistletoe is no match for my TOW missile!"
Posted by Audeo (Member # 5130) on :
I grew up probably the most devout believer in Santa Claus that has ever existed. I was a bit irritated at my mom when she finally told me at 14 that he didn't exist, but by that point I wanted to believe more than I actually believed. She softened the blow by telling me that she had always believed that Santa Claus was truly the spirit of goodness and kindness that moved us all to help each other.
It's easier for children to believe in physical manifestations rather than spiritual ones, so we explain Santa to them that way, and have many stories and myths to support him. I know believing in Santa added a specialness to Christmas for me as a child, and now that I'm a bit older I love staying up late on Christmas eve to set out presents for my baby brother, and younger cousins. They are so excited and it's nice for adults to support at least of a child's magic. Too often we condemn their imaginary worlds and patronize them when they believe in these things. Santa is probably the only magic that adults actively support and encourage. And for me at least, he's never disappeared.
He's just grew up a bit with me. Instead of being a fat elf in a red suit, he's become a symbol of all the good things about Christmas. Not necessarily the commercial things, but spirit that affects many people around this time of year and brings them to act more kindly to strangers and to think more fondly of their family and friends. It would be nice if this spirit prevailed through the entire year, and it does to some small extent, but it is nice to have at least one season where we truly follow Christ's teaching and love one another.
Posted by katharina (Member # 827) on :
I don't remember believing in Santa Claus.
Posted by Sarcasm (Member # 4653) on :
I believed in Santa Claus, but I wouldn't say that I venerated him, nor would I say that any other Mormons I know venerated him.
Posted by Ayelar (Member # 183) on :
Neither do I. I do remember, when I was 7 or 8, my family sitting me down and giving me the Santa Claus "talk", but I just kind of shrugged and said "okay".
Christmas wasn't about Santa Claus for me, it was about a huge pile of presents. As long as the presents were still there, the rest of the nonsense could go hang for all I cared. I was a cynical little kid, all right. Posted by Dan_raven (Member # 3383) on :
Some how I can't quite believe that Sarcasm really believed in Santa.
Posted by Frisco (Member # 3765) on :
I don't remember believing in Santa, either.
Then again, I don't remember ever believing in God, so maybe this is the wrong thread for me. Posted by Sarcasm (Member # 4653) on :
You know, Dan, I wasn't always this bitter and cynical.
Posted by pooka (Member # 5003) on :
Actually, Frisco, that's part of my point. When a kid grows up believing in Santa and finds out he actually died hundreds of years ago, well, what about all these other "fairy tales?"
I was four and didn't really have a grasp of Christmas yet, and my older sister (6) explained it was pretend.
Anyway, I do appreciate some of ya'lls descriptions about it. I guess as long as I'm not making it a point of pride we can just agree to disagree.
Posted by Frisco (Member # 3765) on :
I think we perpetuate the myth of Santa so that adults can buy their children whatever they want for Christmas, and the ungrateful brats'll always blame it on Santa.
I mean, kids whine enough about all the socks and underwear they get...how much worse would it get if they knew it was you who bought it for them, even after they specifically told you they wanted a Tickle Me Sponge Bob?
[ December 15, 2003, 11:51 AM: Message edited by: Frisco ]
Posted by katharina (Member # 827) on :
My baby brother was five, and in a fight, his seven-year-old brother told him that Santa wasn't real - it was our parents.
The baby was livid. How dare you say that! He is real, and you're not getting any presents! One kid insists, the other defends, and my mom breaks it up with a sigh.
CUT TO THREE WEEKS LATER - MIDNIGHT CHRISTMAS EVE
Baby wakes up to the sound of rustling and movement in the living room, which is directly beneath his bedroom. He sneaks down the back staircase, thrilled to catch Santa putting out the presents. He sees my dad. The kid snuck back upstairs and cried himself to sleep.
He didn't tell anyone for years.
Posted by scottneb (Member # 676) on :
quote: I don't remember believing in Santa Claus
Well kat, that explains everything! Posted by katharina (Member # 827) on :
I'd love to claim that I always thought the idea of Santa was highly improbable, but I find it more likely I've blanked out all memories of a time when I was dumber.
I can't remember my freshman year of high school either.
Posted by scottneb (Member # 676) on :
Personally, I think it is good for kids to use their imagination in this manner.
Me, I figured it out at about five. I've always had a scientific way of seeing things, it didn't make sense. When I was a baby my parents would lay me down and give me a Hot Wheels car that I would stare at for hours on end.
Posted by Sarcasm (Member # 4653) on :
So you stared at a Hot Wheels car because it didn't make sense?
Posted by scottneb (Member # 676) on :
Well, yeah I was only about one or so. Maybe I shouldn't have said it.
Posted by Ryuko (Member # 5125) on :
I believed in Santa until first grade. I wasn't a stupid kid. And I respect my mom, because she never lied to me. When I was about five, I asked her whether Santa was real and she paused and said, "What do you think?" and I said I thought he was real.
I wised up about a year later.... When she gave me the ol' What do you think, I said Ohhhhh no! I'm not falling for that again! And she told me the truth. I was sad, but I got over it.
But the best part about Christmas isn't Santa, it's getting presents for all the people you love. That's what I think.
Posted by Dan_raven (Member # 3383) on :
Santa is Love.
Its the lie that says someone outside of the family really does love and care about you.
In that sense, its not really a lie.
That's why, when I play Santa, giving hugs is as important as talking about presents or taking photos.
Posted by scottneb (Member # 676) on :
You know what? You're all full of it!
Santa is the embodiment of childly greed. Most kids have no desire to give, they might share, but never give.
Posted by solo (Member # 3148) on :
quote:Most kids have no desire to give, they might share, but never give.
I hope that this statement isn't true, but it may be. My daughter (who is 5) goes through her room every year (well this is her second year doing it herself) and takes a lot of her toys and puts them in our box of stuff to send to the Good Will. If we didn't stop her, she would give away almost everything. We have taught her that there are many people in the world who don't have as much as us and she wants to help them.
I think she believes in Santa, but in our family Santa only brings 1 present and fills the stocking. All the other presents are from Mom and Dad or whoever else gives her and her brother gifts.
The other day at school she was asked what her favorite thing about Christmas is. I was very happy to hear that she said "spending time with family and friends". This showed me that she actually listens and learns the lessons we are trying to teach her.
Posted by Dan_raven (Member # 3383) on :
Scott you are wrong.
Do you know why I play Santa Claus?
Its not the money. Sure $75/hr sounds good, but that's not why.
Its not the cute women who sit on Santa's lap and give Santa a kiss.
No, really, its not them.
Its the hugs.
Few children remember to ask for anything while they are on my lap. Few remember what they want. Yet every time they make sure to give me a big hug. They will come running from across a crowded room just to give Santa a hug.
They don't pull at my beard.
They don't peek into my sack.
They forget the animals or candy I may hand to them.
They just want to give me a hug.
I think I could live off of those alone.
Posted by Tresopax (Member # 1063) on :
quote:The other day at school she was asked what her favorite thing about Christmas is. I was very happy to hear that she said "spending time with family and friends". This showed me that she actually listens and learns the lessons we are trying to teach her.
You had to teach her that spending time with family and friends was enjoyable? Posted by Law Maker (Member # 5909) on :
I remember feeling very sad and betrayed when my parents told us that there was no Santa. . . but not for the reasons you might think. I don't think I ever believed in a real Santa, I knew it was my parents who put the presents under the tree. I understood the story of Santa as a game children played every year with the adults. The adults would pretend there was a Santa and the children would pretend to believe it. That's why I felt betrayed that year they told us he wasn't real, because they didn't want to play anymore.
Posted by pooka (Member # 5003) on :
Posted by ana kata (Member # 5666) on :
Santa likes to cultivate an air of mystery about himself. And he's so tired of the paparazzi. He's got technology way above ours, of course, and is quite good at hiding. That's why so many people don't know he exists, and think he's just invented. But, come on, you guys! How naive are you, after all? Do you really believe that billions of dollars are spent each year and millions of kids have weeks of anticipation and fall asleep with magic in their heads because of a myth??? Of COURSE Santa is real!
His schtick is giving things. He loves to bring joy to people's hearts, so he gives presents. He's chosen a whole world, one that's really backwards and not hip to the whole galactic civilization thing, in order to have a huge untapped, innocent, non-cynical population who will understand what he's about. Naturally he focuses on kids because they get all twisted and cynical sometimes as they grow up.
He's trying to give us the REAL gift, which is teaching us how to have his spirit of giving all the time. His simple delight in the beauty of nature, and in the joy of pleasing each other. He's the happiest man you've ever met. Honestly, I think if he can successfully teach us his attitude, we will all be full of joy always.
The reason he stays scarce and encourages the myth to grow up around him and his colleagues (who look hardly anything like reindeer or elves, but what were the Europeans to think?) is that he thinks that will best foster the idea that we need to participate ourselves in his joy of giving. Also he likes his privacy. And he's got a lot of mail to deal with, and lists, and logistics, of course.
Anyway, he's a very cool dude. I feel quite privileged to know him. If you want to meet him yourself, try cultivating simultaneously the innocence and wonder of a child, and the wisdom and understanding of an ancient. Posted by Jenny Gardener (Member # 903) on :
We have never told our 5-year-old that Santa was real. We "pretend" Santa on Christmas day because it is fun. And up until this year, she has thought it all pretend.
However, this year she told me outright that she believed in Santa. Every time I make a jest about Santa, she treats me as if I have spoken blasphemy. Where does this faith come from?
And so do I then get her what she REALLY wants for Christmas and give it to her from Santa?
Posted by TomDavidson (Member # 124) on :
"Where does this faith come from?"
I think it's because she's actually STOPPED believing in Santa, and is daring you to reinforce that belief.
Posted by odouls268 (Member # 2145) on :
::Snaps to attention:: ::Delivers crisp salute::
Good Morning Mr. Claus!
Posted by pooka (Member # 5003) on :
But if Santa is real, Anne Kate, then he is responsible for all poverty the same way God is ultimately responsible for all evil.
Posted by solo (Member # 3148) on :
quote:You had to teach her that spending time with family and friends was enjoyable?
Well, with a family like ours...
In all honesty though, what I meant by that (and judging by your wink with the comment you understand this) is that we teach her what we feel are the important things. I think if we didn't do this then she would, without a doubt, have said presents. And by teach I meant more by example than anything, but at her age we do need to spell it out a little sometimes.
Posted by ana kata (Member # 5666) on :
By the way, the reason he has to have his base at the pole is that something about the rotation of the earth messes with his time travelling equipment. He's got the ability to keep traveling back in time to Christmas Eve for most of the year. I guess it's a multidimensional travel setup, because he also can travel in at least four spatial dimensions. That's how he gets inside people's houses, of course, because from a 4th spatial dimension you can go sideways (ana or kata) to reach any point in our three. The bit about the chimney is just made up by people who can't picture multidimensional geometry. Not everyone is a math person, so it was the only explanation they could think of.
Posted by solo (Member # 3148) on :
quote:We have never told our 5-year-old that Santa was real.
This comment made me think, and I don't think we have ever really talked about whether Santa is real or not. We haven't ever told her he doesn't exist, but then we play along with the whole concept of Santa, right down to leaving cookies, milk, and carrots. I think if she ever does ask, I won't hesitate to tell her the truth.
Posted by ana kata (Member # 5666) on :
No, pooka, you misunderstand his schtick. If Santa just wiped away all poverty with a wave of his hand, we would not get it. We'd be like the spoiled rich kids who come downstairs on Christmas morning to see their enormous spreads of toys, and then go cry because it wasn't what they wanted exactly. We'd be a world full of Dudley Dursleys. The gift he's trying to give us is his spirit of giving. If there was nobody who had more or less things they needed than someone else, it would negate the whole impetus for gifts, and the world would be, ultimately, an uglier place.
[ December 15, 2003, 01:28 PM: Message edited by: ana kata ]
Posted by ana kata (Member # 5666) on :
It's like the scouring of the Shire. If Gandalf had stayed with the hobbits and done it for them, would that have been right?
Posted by pooka (Member # 5003) on :
So Santa cultivates poverty so that we will appreciate him more?
Posted by Book (Member # 5500) on :
Wait, so let me get this straight. Are you people saying you're against the belief of santa? Or that you just don't care?
Posted by ana kata (Member # 5666) on :
Santa doesn't cultivate poverty. Our poverty belongs to us, fair and square. It's ours. We are here on earth with plenty of resources to go around, if we would manage them well, and there is poverty. Well, whose business is it to make that right? Don't go blaming poverty on Santa.
Posted by Jenny Gardener (Member # 903) on :
No, Tom, she has never before believed in Santa. In fact, we had to have the whole "don't ruin it for the other kids" talk when she was in preschool. I think she's experimenting with Belief. She's been deciding she believes in God, too, and the Tooth Fairy.
I just find this amazing, because she's been raised fairly agnostic. I answer all her religious questions by "Some people think... Some people say... and What do you think?"
I guess she's telling me she believes.
Posted by ana kata (Member # 5666) on :
Did Gandalf cultivate Saraman so that the Shire would need scouring at the end, so the hobbits could learn something important? Of course not!
It is contradictory to want to be free, in your own world, without the interference of any being with superior intelligence, wisdom, love, and power than you, and then also blame those beings for your condition. Did you want to be free or not? Make up your mind! Did you want to be all alone in the universe or have companions of similar stature to you with whom you could choose to associate? It's your choice! Be a hermit, if you like, or have associates, as you choose. Ask for divine help, if you want it, or tell all superior beings to go away and leave you alone. Either way is fine, it's your choice.
But like children we want both, of course.
[ December 15, 2003, 01:47 PM: Message edited by: ana kata ]
Posted by odouls268 (Member # 2145) on :
I love Santa. And you cant stop me.
Posted by katharina (Member # 827) on :
quote:I just find this amazing, because she's been raised fairly agnostic. I answer all her religious questions by "Some people think... Some people say... and What do you think?"
I guess she's telling me she believes.
Maybe she's asserting her intellectual independence.
Posted by Jenny Gardener (Member # 903) on :
Probably! But now I'm in a quandry. Do I foster this newfound belief in Santa? I have already spent all the money I planned to spend on her Christmas present, and none of them is the Barbie Swan Lake life-sized doll that costs $75.
Posted by TomDavidson (Member # 124) on :
Well, do you want to teach her that the things she chooses to believe in are real, regardless of whether they're ACTUALLY real or not?
Posted by ana kata (Member # 5666) on :
Beethoven's Ninth symphony is not real. People will tell you it exists but every time I listen to that cd, all I hear are notes.
Posted by Jenny Gardener (Member # 903) on :
Not really. Still, to cause a crisis of faith in a 5-year-old! What hell is reserved for such people?
Posted by celia60 (Member # 2039) on :
so getting her the doll and labelling it "from: Isis" is probably strait out, then...
Posted by pooka (Member # 5003) on :
I think teaching children that Santa is real is harmful. I could never do it with sincerity. But if there are folks that can, far be it from me to discourage them. I'm just harassing Anne Kate for fun. Though Lawmaker's story really did make me feel sad.
Posted by Jenny Gardener (Member # 903) on :
I must admit, I did let her write a letter to the snow fairies. And we've been playing like we see Pookas all winter...
Somehow, fairies seem more like an acceptable item of childhood faith than Santa Claus.
I can't afford the doll, anyway.
I probably will put out a gift for her Christmas morning "from Santa". We've always done that. But she's always said "thank you" to Mom and Dad; she knows it's us.
I wonder what she's really thinking. I think maybe I'll just follow her lead this Christmas. Maybe Santa won't get her what she really wants because Santa is really mom and dad playing the Santa game, and they have a budget. But the game is special and fun, and it's fun to play it.
My little girl has been playing with faith and belief quite a bit this last 6 months. I suppose everyone has to work out their own Paths through the mysteries. I'll make sure she knows that her gifts come from her loving parents, but if "Santa" as a god is part of her celebrations, I won't ruin it for her.
Posted by BannaOj (Member # 3206) on :
My parents didn't raise me to believe in Santa. Anyway at the grocery store, shortly after Christmas I mortified my mother when I was about three.
Nice little old lady: So what did santa bring you for Christmas?
AJ: Santa didn't come to my house, he went to Jennifer's instead.
AJ's Mom: <turns embarrased shade of pink>
Mom then had to explain that Jennifer across the street had had a kids Christmas party that I went to, where there was a Santa handing out candy canes, but that they didn't think it was right to lie to your kids and therefore hadn't encouraged the whole Santa thing.
Maybe that explains why I'm so warped!
AJ
Posted by pooka (Member # 5003) on :
Oh no, am I real? :pinches arm:
quote: Well, do you want to teach her that the things she chooses to believe in are real, regardless of whether they're ACTUALLY real or not?
This gets back to the heart of the matter. Does having faith in Santa better prepare children to have faith in (for a practical example) getting your expedition out of the antarctic alive (like Ernest Shackleton). Or will the probable disillusionment harm their ability to exercise faith?
Posted by Storm Saxon (Member # 3101) on :
quote: Faith, not in Santa Claus, but in the goodness of people, is what the kids find in that fat old elf. In religious terms, Santa is a bit of "The Garden" that arrives once a year, and that jaded, tired, adults will kill themselves in order to perserve for thier children.
Once you quit believing in Santa, your time in the Garden is over. Slowly, painfully, tearfully you are thrust into the real world, the cruel world.
Dan, you are quite awesome. Very well said. We have a world where at one end of the compass there exists Anne Rice's 'Savage Garden' and at the other end we have Wilde's garden for children. Excellent. Posted by Santa Claws (Member # 5906) on :
Isn't that from Calvin and Hobbes?
Posted by Maccabeus (Member # 3051) on :
I believed in Santa up until I was 10 or so (I think--my time memory is poor), scientific outlook on life completely aside.
Of course, it seems to have had something to do with an incident that occurred when I was five or six. We had Christmas at my grandparents' that year, and they lived in an old house with a real fireplace and chimney, albeit one that had gone unused for years.
That morning, I awoke to find the screen over the fireplace and the couch in front of it had been shoved aside. Ashes were tracked onto the floor, and a new broom had been left as a present. Perhaps I should have questioned why it had happened that year and not before or after, but it took me a long long time to get the idea that it was all a put-on.
Posted by Scott R (Member # 567) on :
See OSC's 'Homeless in Hell' for the best explanation of Santa Claus I've ever seen.
It's in the OSC Library.
Posted by pooka (Member # 5003) on :
I think I started reading that but it was too sad for me just now.
Posted by Scott R (Member # 567) on :
Sad?
I don't think it's sad. . .
Posted by Bob the Lawyer (Member # 3278) on :
No Santa?
There should be spoiler warnings in this thread.
Posted by pooka (Member # 5003) on :
Ha ha. I just had to do that for you, Bob.
Okay, I think I've figured out my problem. Santa Claus is Darth Vader. Reading Homeless in Hell helped me to understand him. It was a wonderful Speaking, as it were. All the bad feelings popped up to the surface where I could see them.
Posted by sarcasticmuppet (Member # 5035) on :
Yeah, I know, it takes like two clicks to get there, but it's a really good story.
Posted by Teshi (Member # 5024) on :
I never believed completely in Father Christmas. BUt I could never get my parents to admit it. It is an unspoken thing in my house. And that was enough, because I knew that even if Father Christmas wasn't there, my parents cared enough to pretend that he was, and pretended every year, even though we get older and older and we once calculated the speed FC would have to go to deliver presents to everyone who wanted them. It's the thought and pretense, not the acutuality, that makes Father Christmas for me...
Posted by Noemon (Member # 1115) on :
I can remember, at about age four or so, debating with another kid in my preschool about the existance of Santa. He was pro-Santa. It just devolved into him saying "are you calling my mom a liar", and me saying "I'm not saying she's a liar, I'm saying that she's wrong" (while thinking that she was a liar.
It wasn't that I'd arrived at Santa's non-existance myself though. I'd actually wanted to believe in him, but my parents explained to me that he was "pretend, like Frosty, or the Tooth Fairy, or God". My father now claims he would never have said such a thing, but he did. Made quite an impression. I was an bitter radical materialist for the longest time. Used to love baiting Evangelical types. I got over it.
Posted by ana kata (Member # 5666) on :
Teshi, the speed calculations leave out the fact that he's got time travel, so he takes a good part of the year to do one Christmas Eve. I'm not even sure how long-lived he is, or if he doesn't really spend many years of his subjective time doing one Christmas in our time. I'm not really sure what species he is, but I think he is a whole lot smarter and more capable than a normal human, at least, anyway. His technology is so far in advance of ours that I wouldn't be surprised if he had constructed his body to his own specifications. So it might have all sorts of capabilities of which we are ignorant of the possibility, even. That's why those calculations of how he would have to exceed the speed of light, and so on, to do what he does, are flawed. They don't take into account his superior technology.
[ December 16, 2003, 04:34 PM: Message edited by: ana kata ]
Posted by dangermom (Member # 1676) on :
I can't remember ever really believing. I do remember being about 4 and thinking that the 'from Santa' tags looked a lot like my mom's handwriting (Mom used Santa mainly as an excuse not to wrap presents. They just showed up with a plain scrap of paper as a label.) My folks never told me he was real, and they never came out and announced that he didn't exist, either.
I'm kind of similar with my own daughter; I try to treat it as a fun fairy tale, but I would never try to convince her that he's Real.
Back to the OP, I'm LDS, and I can't recall ever running into other Mormons who Encourage Santa Claus. Am I missing something? Is it regional?
Posted by pooka (Member # 5003) on :
I'm not sure whether Anne Kate is LDS, but her level of faith in Santa Claus is characteristic of the folks I am referring to. They hear the bells, they put out the cookies, they see the reindeer tracks.
Posted by Jon Boy (Member # 4284) on :
And I've never met Mormons who didn't do the whole Santa Claus thing. I always assumed that it was something that almost everyone did, regardless of religion.
Posted by Anna (Member # 2582) on :
Santa Claws That comes from the nighmare before christmas, doesn't it?
Posted by pooka (Member # 5003) on :
Hmmm. That reminds me that I keep wanting to make a Christmas movie thread, but it's too painful to think about.
JB insofar as Santa believing is characteristic of American Materialism, and cultural "mormons" list toward American Materialism, I think that is the case. I'm totally against the commercial aspect of Santa. But I don't think anyone on this thread has defended that. My idea of commercial Santa is "let's wallow in the fact that we are the most priviledged culture on Earth". Materialistic Santa is more like the Calvinist idea that if you are good, you get material reward.
I'm trying to understand what Santa is about, if it isn't commercial santa and it isn't Materialistic santa and it's not Usurp the celebration of Jesus' Birth Santa.
Posted by Jon Boy (Member # 4284) on :
Maybe I should ask myself what I got out of believing in Santa. I think it made Christmas a little more magical. I think Santa sets an example of selfless giving. I think it also helps children to learn to be good. Let's face it: most children aren't selflessly good. But I think giving them some rewards for being good will help them learn to be good without rewards.
Posted by dangermom (Member # 1676) on :
quote:And I've never met Mormons who didn't do the whole Santa Claus thing. I always assumed that it was something that almost everyone did, regardless of religion.
I think I may have worded that wrong. I don't know anyone who doesn't do something with Santa, you can hardly avoid it, but I meant I don't know of many Mormons who really push a belief in Santa, with bells and hoofprints and whatnot. Or maybe all my neighbors do, and I just don't know!
I have a close friend who was 12 or so before she figured it out. Her parents had a guy who came over every Christmas Eve as Santa (the same guy every year), with bells in the distance and all. This strikes me as completely twisted, but she seems to have fond memories. She was raised nothing-in-particular religious-wise, though.
Posted by Jon Boy (Member # 4284) on :
Ah. Gotcha. Yeah, I think it's cruel to try to force the belief when they're old enough to discover otherwise. I'm amazed that people can make it into junior high still believing in Santa. That's just asking to be teased.
Posted by Maccabeus (Member # 3051) on :
Anna, that may be where most people who would say it today got it. However, I remember that many years before The Nightmare Before Christmas, I was reading a Spider-Man comic. In the editorial section, there was a little pic of a card with Wolverine disguised as Santa. Part of the text said "have a taste of my Santa claws, bub!" So it's at least as old as early 80s, when that comic came out.
Posted by Brinestone (Member # 5755) on :
I woke up this morning in one of the best moods I've been in in a long time. I was practically skipping into work.
Then I read Homeless in Hell. I've been borderline grumpy ever since. I blame OSC, and I want revenge.
The funny thing is, I can't figure out what depressed me about it exactly. Hmmm . . .
Posted by efrum (Member # 6030) on :
I remember very clearly finding that receipt in my parents bedroom one January. That was a painful moment. I second the reference to being thrust out of the childhood garden and into the cruel world of youth limbo.
Though, I'd never want to go back to being blissfully ignorant again, as fun as it was at the time. I just have this need to know...
The character in the Matrix who wants to be reinserted into the matrix and forget all about the "real world" is beyond my ability to comprehend. How could someone intentionally give up knowledge, no matter how bleak?
However, I still believe in Santa! Just not his physical reality.
efrum
Posted by MaureenJanay (Member # 2935) on :
quote: Your mistletoe is no match for my TOW missile!
That is the funniest line from anything I have ever seen...thanks for reviving it.
I tell my kids that Christmas is about Jesus, and we trade gifts to remind us of the gift God gave to us. Plus we make a BIG deal about giving gifts to the needy and other people we love, and we let our kids wrap and give the presents. We make most of our gifts to teach our kids that giving is about love. So far, my son only thinks of giving at Christmas, and if he ever gets to the point where he worries more about what he gets than what he gives, I SWEAR we will stop trading gifts at Christmas. That may seem extreme, but I don't think there is any measure too far to go to that keeps our kids caring about others more than themselves, and keeps them from developing greed. We can still give gifts, but we'll make a special day for that and keep Christmas just for Christ.
The Dutch do it right. St. Nick comes on the fifth and Christmas is reserved for Jesus.
We don't tell our kids that Santa exists, but we don't stop them from pretending. I have firsthand experience in the "being crushed when told about Santa" arena, and I actually had a tough time trusting my parents for a long time. Of course, my parents tried really hard to make me believe and went to great lengths to integrate him into Christmas. Blegh...it's giving me a yucky taste in my mouth.
Posted by pooka (Member # 5003) on :
I was thinking of a different story when I said it made me sad. I loved Homeless in Hell.
I once read a near death experience where the guy saw a lot of early prophets and apostles working around in heaven. So the story implied, to me, that what they were doing wasn't useful. But... I don't know if OSC read that one or what the other near death literature is like.
I guess the thought that they couldn't help everyone kind of nags at my OCD. You know, why do the laundry if I can't clean the whole house ?
Posted by ak (Member # 90) on :
pooka, yes I am LDS, though I'm a convert, so I'm not sure if that counts. I have faith in Santa because I know him well. And he's a trustworthy sort of guy. That's all. Now the tooth fairy can be sort of wacko sometimes. If she were human you might think she had a little touch of manic depression or something. But Santa is just a dear, kind soul.
Posted by Noemon (Member # 1115) on :
I hear the Easter Bunny has a touch of ADD, and is a bit claustrophobic, but is fairly nice once you get past that stuff.
Posted by ak (Member # 90) on :
Yeah, being claustophobic is really bad for a rabbit, too. Makes you nervous in warrens. Otherwise I suppose he would just be like any ordinary bunny.
All the magnificent people are also broken. It's another one of the paradoxes of life, that we must be broken to grow big, like an eggshell, or a snake moulting, maybe. Like Dostoyevsky.
Posted by Bob_Scopatz (Member # 1227) on :
After years of therapy, I've gotten over my disillusionment over Santa. Fortunately, I still have the Easter Bunny and Tooth Fairy to see me through.
Question: What does it do to a kid's "FAITH" (all caps) when faith in Santa is violated and proven false?
Should we rather teach children not to believe in unprovable myths? If that's true, then how would we train them to have Faith in God -- which is essentially unprovable through normal use of logic or experimentation.
Maybe it's better to have kids believe in Santa so that they can later learn the difference between a true belief and a TRUE belief? (One that is true for the society they live in, even after they are initiated into adulthood.)
I don't know.
I think belief in Santa is pretty benign as things go. I mean, I used to believe that inanimate objects had souls and it hasn't harmed me any. Sure, I feel guilty if I type too hard on the keyboard, and I just about died when I had to junk my last car, but other than that, no problems!
Posted by ak (Member # 90) on :
I don't think faith is something you should try to train into someone. Figuring out what you believe in and what matters to you is as close to your core selfness as it comes. I think maybe the best thing is to just live as the person you are, and teach them everything they ask about, and offer them everything you have and know, and hope that will be enough.
Posted by Noemon (Member # 1115) on :
quote:Yeah, being claustophobic is really bad for a rabbit, too. Makes you nervous in warrens. Otherwise I suppose he would just be like any ordinary bunny.
Exactly! It looked like a curse back when he was still trying to fit in in the warren, but once he got out in the open air and landed that egg delivery job, things really took off for him.
Posted by ak (Member # 90) on :
Yeah, whoever thought the poor unhappy fellow who never had a real home would end up as a mythic archetype of Spring? He's a shining light for us misfits everywhere.
Posted by Noemon (Member # 1115) on :
::officially thinks Anne Kate is all sorts of fun (as if I didn't already)::
Posted by ak (Member # 90) on :
<beams at Noemon>
Posted by grinch (Member # 6034) on :
I'm shocked no one has said "It's okay to not believe in Santa, lady, because Santa believes in you." NOT. Posted by Trisha the Severe Hottie (Member # 6000) on :
Dude, it's still here! There are topics from August 03, 2003 still.
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I was a cynical little kid, all right. ![[Razz]](tongue.gif)
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