posted
If LDS people don't venerate saints, then why are they so often gaga over Santa?
I'm trying to figure this out because as an LDS person, I'm shocked at how often I run across people who want their kids to believe in Santa as a magical elf that brings them presents. They say it's part of childhood.
Maybe it's because my Dad wanted us to thank him when he bought us a present.
Maybe it's because my Mom raised us to hold stupid people in disdain. In which case it would be bad for me to feel this way.
posted
I am not Santa Claus, but I play one every weekend in December. Hey, its a nice $75/hr gig. The more veneration thrown in my general direction, the better.
Seriously, despite all chestnuts I almost choked on when I watched "The Year Without A Santa Claus" and heard those immortal words, "Santa is sick so I guess we'll have to cancel Christmas." Santa does have a use.
Santa represents things besides mass marketing and CocaCola.
Santa, for young children, represents a world where nice people exist to do patient giving things without asking for a thing in return. Santa is innocence and trust and faith.
Some talk about Big Brother Santa who punishes the wicked. That isn't the root of the Santa myth. Every child knows Naughty and Nice doesn't really matter.
Faith, not in Santa Claus, but in the goodness of people, is what the kids find in that fat old elf. In religious terms, Santa is a bit of "The Garden" that arrives once a year, and that jaded, tired, adults will kill themselves in order to perserve for thier children.
Once you quit believing in Santa, your time in the Garden is over. Slowly, painfully, tearfully you are thrust into the real world, the cruel world.
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If the world were intrinsicly cruel, there wouldn't be a Santa. Santa isn't venerated. He's a reminder that life is as pleasant as adults choose to make it.
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I grew up probably the most devout believer in Santa Claus that has ever existed. I was a bit irritated at my mom when she finally told me at 14 that he didn't exist, but by that point I wanted to believe more than I actually believed. She softened the blow by telling me that she had always believed that Santa Claus was truly the spirit of goodness and kindness that moved us all to help each other.
It's easier for children to believe in physical manifestations rather than spiritual ones, so we explain Santa to them that way, and have many stories and myths to support him. I know believing in Santa added a specialness to Christmas for me as a child, and now that I'm a bit older I love staying up late on Christmas eve to set out presents for my baby brother, and younger cousins. They are so excited and it's nice for adults to support at least of a child's magic. Too often we condemn their imaginary worlds and patronize them when they believe in these things. Santa is probably the only magic that adults actively support and encourage. And for me at least, he's never disappeared.
He's just grew up a bit with me. Instead of being a fat elf in a red suit, he's become a symbol of all the good things about Christmas. Not necessarily the commercial things, but spirit that affects many people around this time of year and brings them to act more kindly to strangers and to think more fondly of their family and friends. It would be nice if this spirit prevailed through the entire year, and it does to some small extent, but it is nice to have at least one season where we truly follow Christ's teaching and love one another.
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I believed in Santa Claus, but I wouldn't say that I venerated him, nor would I say that any other Mormons I know venerated him.
Posts: 276 | Registered: Feb 2003
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Neither do I. I do remember, when I was 7 or 8, my family sitting me down and giving me the Santa Claus "talk", but I just kind of shrugged and said "okay".
Christmas wasn't about Santa Claus for me, it was about a huge pile of presents. As long as the presents were still there, the rest of the nonsense could go hang for all I cared. I was a cynical little kid, all right. Posts: 2220 | Registered: Jun 1999
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Actually, Frisco, that's part of my point. When a kid grows up believing in Santa and finds out he actually died hundreds of years ago, well, what about all these other "fairy tales?"
I was four and didn't really have a grasp of Christmas yet, and my older sister (6) explained it was pretend.
Anyway, I do appreciate some of ya'lls descriptions about it. I guess as long as I'm not making it a point of pride we can just agree to disagree.
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posted
I think we perpetuate the myth of Santa so that adults can buy their children whatever they want for Christmas, and the ungrateful brats'll always blame it on Santa.
I mean, kids whine enough about all the socks and underwear they get...how much worse would it get if they knew it was you who bought it for them, even after they specifically told you they wanted a Tickle Me Sponge Bob?
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My baby brother was five, and in a fight, his seven-year-old brother told him that Santa wasn't real - it was our parents.
The baby was livid. How dare you say that! He is real, and you're not getting any presents! One kid insists, the other defends, and my mom breaks it up with a sigh.
CUT TO THREE WEEKS LATER - MIDNIGHT CHRISTMAS EVE
Baby wakes up to the sound of rustling and movement in the living room, which is directly beneath his bedroom. He sneaks down the back staircase, thrilled to catch Santa putting out the presents. He sees my dad. The kid snuck back upstairs and cried himself to sleep.
He didn't tell anyone for years.
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I'd love to claim that I always thought the idea of Santa was highly improbable, but I find it more likely I've blanked out all memories of a time when I was dumber.
I can't remember my freshman year of high school either.
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Personally, I think it is good for kids to use their imagination in this manner.
Me, I figured it out at about five. I've always had a scientific way of seeing things, it didn't make sense. When I was a baby my parents would lay me down and give me a Hot Wheels car that I would stare at for hours on end.
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I believed in Santa until first grade. I wasn't a stupid kid. And I respect my mom, because she never lied to me. When I was about five, I asked her whether Santa was real and she paused and said, "What do you think?" and I said I thought he was real.
I wised up about a year later.... When she gave me the ol' What do you think, I said Ohhhhh no! I'm not falling for that again! And she told me the truth. I was sad, but I got over it.
But the best part about Christmas isn't Santa, it's getting presents for all the people you love. That's what I think.
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Its the lie that says someone outside of the family really does love and care about you.
In that sense, its not really a lie.
That's why, when I play Santa, giving hugs is as important as talking about presents or taking photos.
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Santa is the embodiment of childly greed. Most kids have no desire to give, they might share, but never give.
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quote:Most kids have no desire to give, they might share, but never give.
I hope that this statement isn't true, but it may be. My daughter (who is 5) goes through her room every year (well this is her second year doing it herself) and takes a lot of her toys and puts them in our box of stuff to send to the Good Will. If we didn't stop her, she would give away almost everything. We have taught her that there are many people in the world who don't have as much as us and she wants to help them.
I think she believes in Santa, but in our family Santa only brings 1 present and fills the stocking. All the other presents are from Mom and Dad or whoever else gives her and her brother gifts.
The other day at school she was asked what her favorite thing about Christmas is. I was very happy to hear that she said "spending time with family and friends". This showed me that she actually listens and learns the lessons we are trying to teach her.
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Its not the money. Sure $75/hr sounds good, but that's not why.
Its not the cute women who sit on Santa's lap and give Santa a kiss.
No, really, its not them.
Its the hugs.
Few children remember to ask for anything while they are on my lap. Few remember what they want. Yet every time they make sure to give me a big hug. They will come running from across a crowded room just to give Santa a hug.
They don't pull at my beard.
They don't peek into my sack.
They forget the animals or candy I may hand to them.
They just want to give me a hug.
I think I could live off of those alone.
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quote:The other day at school she was asked what her favorite thing about Christmas is. I was very happy to hear that she said "spending time with family and friends". This showed me that she actually listens and learns the lessons we are trying to teach her.
You had to teach her that spending time with family and friends was enjoyable? Posts: 8120 | Registered: Jul 2000
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I remember feeling very sad and betrayed when my parents told us that there was no Santa. . . but not for the reasons you might think. I don't think I ever believed in a real Santa, I knew it was my parents who put the presents under the tree. I understood the story of Santa as a game children played every year with the adults. The adults would pretend there was a Santa and the children would pretend to believe it. That's why I felt betrayed that year they told us he wasn't real, because they didn't want to play anymore.
Posts: 46 | Registered: Nov 2003
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Santa likes to cultivate an air of mystery about himself. And he's so tired of the paparazzi. He's got technology way above ours, of course, and is quite good at hiding. That's why so many people don't know he exists, and think he's just invented. But, come on, you guys! How naive are you, after all? Do you really believe that billions of dollars are spent each year and millions of kids have weeks of anticipation and fall asleep with magic in their heads because of a myth??? Of COURSE Santa is real!
His schtick is giving things. He loves to bring joy to people's hearts, so he gives presents. He's chosen a whole world, one that's really backwards and not hip to the whole galactic civilization thing, in order to have a huge untapped, innocent, non-cynical population who will understand what he's about. Naturally he focuses on kids because they get all twisted and cynical sometimes as they grow up.
He's trying to give us the REAL gift, which is teaching us how to have his spirit of giving all the time. His simple delight in the beauty of nature, and in the joy of pleasing each other. He's the happiest man you've ever met. Honestly, I think if he can successfully teach us his attitude, we will all be full of joy always.
The reason he stays scarce and encourages the myth to grow up around him and his colleagues (who look hardly anything like reindeer or elves, but what were the Europeans to think?) is that he thinks that will best foster the idea that we need to participate ourselves in his joy of giving. Also he likes his privacy. And he's got a lot of mail to deal with, and lists, and logistics, of course.
Anyway, he's a very cool dude. I feel quite privileged to know him. If you want to meet him yourself, try cultivating simultaneously the innocence and wonder of a child, and the wisdom and understanding of an ancient. Posts: 968 | Registered: Sep 2003
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We have never told our 5-year-old that Santa was real. We "pretend" Santa on Christmas day because it is fun. And up until this year, she has thought it all pretend.
However, this year she told me outright that she believed in Santa. Every time I make a jest about Santa, she treats me as if I have spoken blasphemy. Where does this faith come from?
And so do I then get her what she REALLY wants for Christmas and give it to her from Santa?
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I think it's because she's actually STOPPED believing in Santa, and is daring you to reinforce that belief.
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But if Santa is real, Anne Kate, then he is responsible for all poverty the same way God is ultimately responsible for all evil.
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quote:You had to teach her that spending time with family and friends was enjoyable?
Well, with a family like ours...
In all honesty though, what I meant by that (and judging by your wink with the comment you understand this) is that we teach her what we feel are the important things. I think if we didn't do this then she would, without a doubt, have said presents. And by teach I meant more by example than anything, but at her age we do need to spell it out a little sometimes.
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By the way, the reason he has to have his base at the pole is that something about the rotation of the earth messes with his time travelling equipment. He's got the ability to keep traveling back in time to Christmas Eve for most of the year. I guess it's a multidimensional travel setup, because he also can travel in at least four spatial dimensions. That's how he gets inside people's houses, of course, because from a 4th spatial dimension you can go sideways (ana or kata) to reach any point in our three. The bit about the chimney is just made up by people who can't picture multidimensional geometry. Not everyone is a math person, so it was the only explanation they could think of.
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quote:We have never told our 5-year-old that Santa was real.
This comment made me think, and I don't think we have ever really talked about whether Santa is real or not. We haven't ever told her he doesn't exist, but then we play along with the whole concept of Santa, right down to leaving cookies, milk, and carrots. I think if she ever does ask, I won't hesitate to tell her the truth.
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No, pooka, you misunderstand his schtick. If Santa just wiped away all poverty with a wave of his hand, we would not get it. We'd be like the spoiled rich kids who come downstairs on Christmas morning to see their enormous spreads of toys, and then go cry because it wasn't what they wanted exactly. We'd be a world full of Dudley Dursleys. The gift he's trying to give us is his spirit of giving. If there was nobody who had more or less things they needed than someone else, it would negate the whole impetus for gifts, and the world would be, ultimately, an uglier place.
[ December 15, 2003, 01:28 PM: Message edited by: ana kata ]
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It's like the scouring of the Shire. If Gandalf had stayed with the hobbits and done it for them, would that have been right?
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Wait, so let me get this straight. Are you people saying you're against the belief of santa? Or that you just don't care?
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Santa doesn't cultivate poverty. Our poverty belongs to us, fair and square. It's ours. We are here on earth with plenty of resources to go around, if we would manage them well, and there is poverty. Well, whose business is it to make that right? Don't go blaming poverty on Santa.
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No, Tom, she has never before believed in Santa. In fact, we had to have the whole "don't ruin it for the other kids" talk when she was in preschool. I think she's experimenting with Belief. She's been deciding she believes in God, too, and the Tooth Fairy.
I just find this amazing, because she's been raised fairly agnostic. I answer all her religious questions by "Some people think... Some people say... and What do you think?"
I guess she's telling me she believes.
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Did Gandalf cultivate Saraman so that the Shire would need scouring at the end, so the hobbits could learn something important? Of course not!
It is contradictory to want to be free, in your own world, without the interference of any being with superior intelligence, wisdom, love, and power than you, and then also blame those beings for your condition. Did you want to be free or not? Make up your mind! Did you want to be all alone in the universe or have companions of similar stature to you with whom you could choose to associate? It's your choice! Be a hermit, if you like, or have associates, as you choose. Ask for divine help, if you want it, or tell all superior beings to go away and leave you alone. Either way is fine, it's your choice.
But like children we want both, of course.
[ December 15, 2003, 01:47 PM: Message edited by: ana kata ]
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quote:I just find this amazing, because she's been raised fairly agnostic. I answer all her religious questions by "Some people think... Some people say... and What do you think?"
I guess she's telling me she believes.
Maybe she's asserting her intellectual independence.
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Probably! But now I'm in a quandry. Do I foster this newfound belief in Santa? I have already spent all the money I planned to spend on her Christmas present, and none of them is the Barbie Swan Lake life-sized doll that costs $75.
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Well, do you want to teach her that the things she chooses to believe in are real, regardless of whether they're ACTUALLY real or not?
Posts: 37449 | Registered: May 1999
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Beethoven's Ninth symphony is not real. People will tell you it exists but every time I listen to that cd, all I hear are notes.
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Not really. Still, to cause a crisis of faith in a 5-year-old! What hell is reserved for such people?
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I think teaching children that Santa is real is harmful. I could never do it with sincerity. But if there are folks that can, far be it from me to discourage them. I'm just harassing Anne Kate for fun. Though Lawmaker's story really did make me feel sad.
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