I heard a statistic one time about rape in the United States. It said that at the age of eighteen, one in four women will have been raped. Also, at age eighteen almost three out of four had been put in a situation in which they had to physically take action to divert the advances of a male. As I took a look at the women that I was close to at the time I found this startlingly true. This was further smacked into my head with the realization that I lived in a community that was a good 80% LDS. I'm not saying that the LDS guys are evil. I'm saying that I lived in a good community and were definitely on the lower side of the scale.
So, I want to discuss why this has happened. I also want to discuss the warning signs of guys that are out to do harm. Most importantly we should discuss ways to not be the victim.
-scottneb-
Posted by twinky (Member # 693) on :
Yeesh, that's scary. I'm almost afraid to look up the Canadian statistics now. Posted by Occasional (Member # 5860) on :
quote:ways to not be the victim.
That can be pretty easy, if you want to actually make sure never to become a victim. Never be alone with a male or female without at least one other couple with you. The more people around you, the less likely someone is going to try an illegal action.
Second, and one that really bothers me because it is often rejected as prudish, don't look the part of the hussey or whore. The messages you put out (how you dress, what you say, etc.) have to have some kind of impact.
Where do I believe the problems reside? In the sexed up society we currently have. When you have "sex is good, sex is natural, sex is easy, sex is life" plastered all over the place than you have to expect a particular rush to have sex. It becomes a status symbol. Then, when a woman doesn't accept a man's passes, he feels not just that the woman has rejected him, but society. It becomes a power issue.
The question I have is why women don't rape as much as men? My guess is that they are physically weaker and have less of a natural libedo.
[ December 23, 2003, 12:11 PM: Message edited by: Occasional ]
Posted by fugu13 (Member # 2859) on :
I believe the statistic is not that one in four will have been raped by eighteen, but that one in four will have been raped or had an attempted rape in their lifetime. *checks* yeah, that's it: http://www.oneinfour.com/facts.php .
Still, a very chilling statistic.
Posted by Strider (Member # 1807) on :
quote:The question I have is why women don't rape as much as men?
because then it's not "getting raped", it's "scoring without any effort".
Posted by scottneb (Member # 676) on :
If you take a look at porcelain girl's thread, you can see a common response from the women. Repulsion. A woman's sex drive is an entirely different beast, one that is much easier to tame. This is mainly because a man usually doesn't become 'attractive' until he has shown some sort of nurturing behavior. Men on the other hand are out for looks. If she has good hips (for birthing) big breasts (for better milk production, (which is entirely untrue)) etc. etc. Then she is, for a lack of a better word, targeted.
[ December 23, 2003, 12:23 PM: Message edited by: scottneb ]
Posted by Tresopax (Member # 1063) on :
quote:I'm saying that I lived in a good community and were definitely on the lower side of the scale.
Interesting that you think an LDS community is definitely on the lower side of the scale.
quote:The question I have is why women don't rape as much as men? My guess is that they are physically weaker and have less of a natural libedo.
My guess is that they do - it's just called "hooking up" instead of "rape".
(Edit: Looks like Strider said it first.)
[ December 23, 2003, 12:18 PM: Message edited by: Tresopax ]
Posted by scottneb (Member # 676) on :
Tres, you bring up an interesting point. I recognize that the problem also lay in wait among the LDS. But that is another discussion all together.
Posted by dkw (Member # 3264) on :
Scott, I’m not sure I’m following you. Are you saying that the reason women are disgusted by a stranger making physical advances at work, is because women have a lower sex drive? And if so, do you think that if a forty year old woman walked up behind a twenty year old male at his desk and started stroking his neck that he would be pleased by this?
Posted by Tresopax (Member # 1063) on :
I bet not.
But what if a 20 year old girl did it to him? Truth is, in that case, he probably either would be or would be expected to be pleased by it.
[ December 23, 2003, 01:31 PM: Message edited by: Tresopax ]
Posted by Farmgirl (Member # 5567) on :
quote: The question I have is why women don't rape as much as men? My guess is that they are physically weaker and have less of a natural libedo
I believe I have just as high, if not higher, sexual drive than many of the men I know (or have lived with). The difference is I have more self control And women tend to be more worried about consequences -- they don't lose sight of that in the heat of the moment as easily.
Farmgirl
Posted by Noemon (Member # 1115) on :
I have to say I was completely taken aback by the assertion that women have a lower sex drive than men. That's certainly the social model that society has tried to force women into, historically, but there really isn't much truth to it, in my experience.
Posted by BannaOj (Member # 3206) on :
*pops popcorn* *sits back to watch*
Posted by Polly (Member # 6044) on :
quote: The question I have is why women don't rape as much as men? My guess is that they are physically weaker and have less of a natural libedo.
It's likely because rape is not about sex. It is about power, control and violence, and women are typically less violent than men as a rule.
Posted by Farmgirl (Member # 5567) on :
quote: if you want to actually make sure never to become a victim. Never be alone with a male or female without at least one other couple with you
That isn't as easy as it sounds.
When I was 17, I worked for a landscaping company. It was my summer job. The boss asked the team foreman and I to go pick up a certain tree (with a big tree spade). This was common. We got into the truck and drove several miles out of town to get this tree. When we were out in the field -- in the absolute middle of nowhere -- this foreman suddenly turned to me and informed me that he would NOT drive me back to town, and I would NOT have a job unless I consented to give sex to him right there. Right now. I was young and scared. He was big and much older. And up to this point, I had counted him as my friend. How many times does coersion like this NOT get reported as rape?
second example: Also as a teen, I was on a mountain trail ride with a outfitter group (you know, where you pay a crew to take you up in the mountains on horseback for several days of camping). The oldest member of the group was a doctor (physician), who was a jolly old guy that everyone liked. It was required for outfitters to have a doctor along on these rides. One evening as I walked past his tent (all tents were grouped together), he called for me, and had something he was showing me (I don't even remember what it was now). Naive' me, totally unexperienced with men, peeked in to get a better look at the object. He grabbed me, pulled me into the tent, and began fondling me. After a second for the shock and fear to pass, I threatened to scream loudly (there were lots of people around) if he didn't let me go. He let me go. But I was shaken up for the rest of the trip. And my aunt (who took me on the trip) didn't believe me and laughed it off.
Most recently -- I was an adult-- a single parent of three grade school aged kids. Low income. The school counselor requested a private meeting to discuss "concerns" he had about my kids. I met with him. He promptly tried to blackmail me into consenting to sex with him -- or else he was going to call SRS and say my kids were in some kind of danger and have them removed from the home. Threaten to take a mother's kids away from her and see what reaction that brings! He said, "who are they going to believe, a licensed trained psychologist like me, or a poor, stressed single mom like you?" (I called his bluff this time -- older and wiser).
I have told my 14 year old daughter ALL of these stories -- because I want her to be much more on guard and ready and less naive than I was in trusting others. I'm sorry that I've had to scare her with this, and I'm sorry if I've possibly colored her view of life and men, but I would rather it be that than her not know this stuff exists. We have also talked about different ways of handling such situations.
Farmgirl
Posted by rivka (Member # 4859) on :
Women are also more likely to prefer subtle uses of power, rather than overt ones.
Posted by BannaOj (Member # 3206) on :
quote: When you have "sex is good, sex is natural, sex is easy, sex is life" plastered all over the place than you have to expect a particular rush to have sex.
Umm I think that would have everything to do natural selection and evolution, and not a lot to do with society. If sex were actually difficult our species might not be around today. And you SHOULD expect a rush or high when you have sex (consensually) regardless of whether you are male or female. Otherwise there is something wrong!
AJ
Posted by Noemon (Member # 1115) on :
There is a fundamental biological drive toward sex, of course, Bana, but surely you aren't arguing that all societies have been equally open and accepting of the human sex drive, right?
Posted by Noemon (Member # 1115) on :
Farmgirl, all I can say is...damn. I hate that you've had to experience that. I hate that people can be such miserable excuses for human beings. Too many of my friends have stories like yours. It makes me feel physically ill, and angry. I hope that your talks with your daughter have helped to keep her from having to go through something like that.
Posted by Tresopax (Member # 1063) on :
quote:The difference is I have more self control And women tend to be more worried about consequences -- they don't lose sight of that in the heat of the moment as easily.
You're saying women have more self control and are more consequence-oriented? I definitely don't think that's any more true than the suggestion that women have a lesser sex drive.
quote:It's likely because rape is not about sex. It is about power, control and violence, and women are typically less violent than men as a rule.
Actually, at least in regards to the 1 in 4 statistic, I don't believe this is true. Based on what I've read about that particular statistic, a large percentage of the cases included there are instances where the male just wanted intercourse before the female was ready, and was apparently willing to ignore her opinion on the matter.
Posted by scottneb (Member # 676) on :
It's very difficult to discuss this without also discussing stereotypes. I made a statement based on what I know about the female sex-drive. Let's say that what I know is completly false, and that the female sex-drive is 'larger' than a male's. I think that because women are more conversational (if that's a word), their way of 'busting a move' isn't quite so obvious as a man's is. So in this context, when a man (innocently) comes on to a woman, in the only way he knows (which is pretty vulgar.) He is seen as repulsive, until of course he shows her, or something she values, repsect. At which time he is seen as charming.
Needless to say, the game is complicated. Some guys figure out the rules and play by them. Some guys don't know the rules, nor have the means to play by them. Some know the rules and completly disregard them. These men are selfish and only seek to fulfill their own urges. These are the men that women need to look out for, and these are the men that us guys have to seek to not become.
Posted by Vána (Member # 3262) on :
Tres, in that situation, it is still about power, or control at the very least. It's not just about sex - it's about putting one's own "needs" above the rights of another person.
[edit: forgot a word]
[ December 23, 2003, 02:32 PM: Message edited by: Vána ]
Posted by Storm Saxon (Member # 3101) on :
quote: And if so, do you think that if a forty year old woman walked up behind a twenty year old male at his desk and started stroking his neck that he would be pleased by this?
Used to have this happen all the time at various nursing homes I worked at. Depending on who it is and how it's done, it ranges from 'how cute, she's interested in me. If only she were a few years younger. In any case, this feels really good.' to 'I am really not getting into you. Leave me alone.' At no time was I 'threatened' by it.
This is not to say that, for instance, Porcelain Girl is wrong in how she feels.
Posted by Jenny Gardener (Member # 903) on :
Part of what I learned in a female self-defense course (karate based) was that your projected self-confidence can be one of the biggest deterrents to an attacker. You hold your head high, you move with confidence. You remain alert and aware of your surroundings. You look people in the eye. You also speak confidently and "own" the space around you. You don't allow anyone to enter that space without your express consent. You know what your body is capable of and are not afraid to use it.
I don't know if these things have been effective or not in my life, but I have not had the sort of uncomfortable and scary experiences Farmgirl relates since college, when I took that self-defense course.
Posted by Tresopax (Member # 1063) on :
You know, I think there are a lot of common misperceptions about rape that greatly endanger women. Truth be told, they are afraid of the worng things, in my view.
Consider a situation I saw a million times at college. A girl gets drunk at a party and wants to go home afterward. She is afraid of being attacked by a rapist in the dark, so she gets some drunk guy at the party to escort her. It sounds like a safety precaution, but look again. Which do you think is more likely: that a random guy is going to jump out of the bushes and attack the girl, or that the guy escorting her is going to try to take advantage of her when they get back to her room? Consider the fact that the vast majority of rapes are perpretrated by people who knew the victims. You're not going to get raped by some homeless guy on the street or something - it's going to be some friend or acquintance. Thus the classic fears are misdirected.
Posted by Javert Hugo (Member # 3980) on :
I echo what Jenny said.
The times in my life that I have been approached like that have all been times when I was extremely vulnerable because of other things.
When I'm myself, it never happens. When I'm upset, it does.
I am SO not impressed with people in general because of it. For a wonderful few, they see vulnerability and refrain from respect. For the rest of the sucky human race, they see vulnerability and think, "Yay! Someone who won't/can't push away."
Posted by Dan_raven (Member # 3383) on :
You can say its natural. You can say its biological. You can say its simply the differences between men and women. You can say its the confusion over what is and is not consent. You can say its society, that demands men have sex whenever aroused, and women don't. You can say its the confusion over male/female relations in a post-modern world. You can say she probably just sent the man the wrong signals, and he got carried away. You can say it. Go ahead. Its what the rapists say--to their lawyers, to their juries, to their victims, to themselves.
Say it all you like. Argue it. Prove it. Just don't do it.
No means no. Power does not equal sex. Just because you can, does not mean you have to. Just because she has to, does not mean its sex.
Its violence. Its abuse. Its wrong.
Its the theft of innocence, even if her innocence was given away long ago.
There are many types of innocence.
Posted by Rakeesh (Member # 2001) on :
This is a statistic I've heard often, but one until now I didn't ask this question of: what does it categorize as rape?
Does it categorize as rape only overtly violent sexual assault, where the woman is left physically bloodied and bruised? Or does it include other forms of "non-violent" (insert cynical laugh) rape, as well? Drugs in the beverage, that sort of thing?
Naturally all are cowardly, despicable, and loathesome crimes, and if at all possible I hope every perpetrator spends a long, thoroughly unpleasant (and sometimes I hope equivalent) time in prison. That's just something I was curious about, that's all.
Hopefully, because the number is so horrifingly high, it includes all categories of non-consentual sex, which is the rightful definition of rape.
quote:Second, and one that really bothers me because it is often rejected as prudish, don't look the part of the hussey or whore. The messages you put out (how you dress, what you say, etc.) have to have some kind of impact.
This is the counsel of prudence, but not the counsel of justice. I cannot help that for the number of women to be so high, the majority of them must have not been dressed in a provocative fashion.
quote:Where do I believe the problems reside? In the sexed up society we currently have. When you have "sex is good, sex is natural, sex is easy, sex is life" plastered all over the place than you have to expect a particular rush to have sex. It becomes a status symbol. Then, when a woman doesn't accept a man's passes, he feels not just that the woman has rejected him, but society. It becomes a power issue.
I think this is incorrect. I have no data on it, but I think rape is either a more or less static crime, or it has decreased as time passes. Surely you must agree, in the Middle-Ages, or more recently when the "rule of thumb" prevailed, rape occurred more often than today? We live in a world where, until relatively recently, in most cultures the response to rape was either for the woman's family to kill the rapist, or the woman to marry him. These things do not fit in with the quote I just quoted.
Society expects and conditions women to have a lower sex drive than men. One is forced to wonder, however, with women's liberation and increasing equality of the sexes and scrutiny of gender-role creation, whether this will be viewed as true in another decade or century. Personally, although no one can say for sure, I think it won't be.
quote:Women are also more likely to prefer subtle uses of power, rather than overt ones.
Rivka, if true, I ask you why is this true? Personally I think women would be just as likely to enjoy overt uses of power-if current society and literally thousands of years of social conditioning hadn't taught them subtler arts.
Human beings have a natural tendancy to attempt whatever they will believe will work, with the least effort, that will acheive their goal.
quote:You're saying women have more self control and are more consequence-oriented? I definitely don't think that's any more true than the suggestion that women have a lesser sex drive.
I think this is true, but not because it's "natural". I think it's true because women have, until very recently, been forced to be very consequence oriented, particularly in matters of sexuality, than men. When you can't get a job that pays more than peanuts and celery sticks above minimum wage, and when all sex has the possibility of resulting in a pregnancy with no acceptable, available recourse except to have the child...these are the kinds of things that teach people to be "consequence oriented". You and I would be more consequence oriented if the options we had could be counted on one hand.
quote:Actually, at least in regards to the 1 in 4 statistic, I don't believe this is true. Based on what I've read about that particular statistic, a large percentage of the cases included there are instances where the male just wanted intercourse before the female was ready, and was apparently willing to ignore her opinion on the matter.
That's rape. Ask yourself, if you had a sister or a niece or a daughter, what would you call it if a man applied that rationale to her? I simply cannot believe you wouldn't call it rape. Woman-or man-expresses nonconsent to sex, and the man or woman continues irregardless of their sovereign control over their own body, that's rape. Doesn't have to be done at gunpoint to be rape.
And on an unrelated note of...ummm, thread procedure? Unless you're looking to start a napalm-fight in this thread, I advise you as a matter of rhetoric to find a different way of expressing that kind of opinion? It kind of pisses some people off. Or maybe it's just me. ----------- As to the original question, how to avoid becoming a victim?
One is to avoid situations where you will become a victim. However, simply speaking with a few women you know will demonstrate this is not always possible.
The second, reactive and active (not proactive and passive) means of not becoming a victim is a loud, carrying voice, knowledge of self-defense centered on escape and causing massive, painful damage to the assailant, and an ability to overcome the deer-in-the-headlights affect.
Posted by Storm Saxon (Member # 3101) on :
Before this thread gets too far, I'm going to make a prediction that if you actually look at the studies in which '1 in 4 women are raped or will have someone attempt to rape them.', you will find that the definition of rape in most of these studies is *very* low. For instance, recently a study was done that purported to show that some mind-bogglingly high percentage of women would be raped while in college. When you actually looked at the study, it was clear that they were making projections based solely off of the Freshman year in college--when logic would seem to dictate the the most women would be raped--and they were using women who themselves believed they hadn't been raped, but had been subjected to forced affection or something as victims of 'rape'.
Rape is a serious problem but I think another problem is the infation of statistics to fill an agenda. I'm not saying that it's not possible, just that I am highly skeptical and I think before we add any more to the culture of fear that seems to permeate this society, I think we should make sure that we understand that rape is very subjective and statistics like 1 in 4 can be manipulated.
Posted by Rakeesh (Member # 2001) on :
Jenny's advice is excellent, and is valuable in a proactive and reactive situation.
Act like you're the cop on the beat with a gun on his hip, not like the little old lady coming home from the bank after cashing her social security check.
Posted by Javert Hugo (Member # 3980) on :
Can I just say how much I massively adore Rakeesh?
Posted by Jenny Gardener (Member # 903) on :
No, it is not the theft of innocence. It is the murder of choice. It is the taking of something not freely given. It is the objectification of a human being.
I don't think innocence has anything to do with it. A rapist doesn't hunt someone he perceives as "innocent". He takes, steals, and harms because someone is weaker than he. It is the triumph of power.
It is the same as beating a child or blackmailing someone. You are destroying a soul, because you want to show yourself that you can.
Posted by Jenny Gardener (Member # 903) on :
Actually, I think dressing "tarty" has very little to do with rape. If you dress sexy, yet present yourself with confidence, you are indeed likely to get attention, but it is easy to turn away unwanted approaches with subtle signals or a few words. You are saying to the boors "I am out of your league", and they accept it. You also have weapons - sharp high heels and sparkly sharp rings. You have the attention of other men, who will stare a guy down or step in when a jerk is bothering you.
Many rapes occur to sweet, demure women who wouldn't dream of dressing in a provocative fashion. This dress, coupled with their demeanor, signals that a woman is not comfortable with her sexuality and may be more easy to dominate.
Also, the women who are in a weakened state due to alcohol, drugs, weariness, or grief will be less aware of their surroundings, weaker both physically and emotionally, and less likely to be effective at fighting back.
Posted by Tresopax (Member # 1063) on :
On the definition of rape...
I'd rather define it as nonconsenting sex when both participants knew it was nonconsenting. I think there's a significant difference in severity between the crime of the stupid guy who can't figure out a girl doesn't want to go further and the crime of the selfish guy who knows she doesn't and goes ahead anyway.
quote:Actually, at least in regards to the 1 in 4 statistic, I don't believe this is true. Based on what I've read about that particular statistic, a large percentage of the cases included there are instances where the male just wanted intercourse before the female was ready, and was apparently willing to ignore her opinion on the matter.
That's rape. Ask yourself, if you had a sister or a niece or a daughter, what would you call it if a man applied that rationale to her? I simply cannot believe you wouldn't call it rape.
That IS rape. My point was just that it was rape generated by a desire for sex, not necessariily by a desire to be powerful.
Posted by Rakeesh (Member # 2001) on :
Javert,
Thanks. Although seeing as how you're a Jatraquero of the male-persuasion, may I request you change that to, "am awed by, wish to be like, and give money to, Rakeesh?" It's just more masculine that way, don'tcha think? ----- Rape is theft. It is taking something that doesn't belong to you. It's not just one thing stolen, though, it's many. And it's not just one kind of thing stolen, it's many. And it's not just a one-time theft, it's a theft that lingers.
It's like picking some of the most valuable, cherished, and unguarded things from what is a person. Their soul, themselves, whatever. You know what they say about plowing a field? They plowed wide and deep, to suggest that they plowed over a large area as well as deep into the ground, so the job was bigger and more effective and would last longer? Rape is a theft like that. If a person's self is a field, then rape is salting that field both wide and deep, a terrible injury for a long time to come.
Posted by Farmgirl (Member # 5567) on :
I agree with Jenny about carrying yourself with confidence, assertiveness in order to help being singled out as a potential victim.
I might add that when I was a teen (when most of those above situations I mentioned happened), I had been raised in an all-female family -- no brothers, and my dad was not in the home (my parents were divorced, so although I was very, very close to my dad, I didn't interact with him daily). I was not real confident around men because of this -- I had no real experience with them.
I'm hoping that because my daughter has two older brothers -- that she DOES NOT put up with any crap from -- she is more prepared than I. I don't see her acting timid around men as I did then -- she doesn't see men/boys as some strange/different creatures She's much more accustomed to their mentality than I was as a young person.
The few times I've been "harrassed" as an adult, I've been able to hold my own, stand my ground, and disfuse the situation. But that is much different than those women out there who are brutally and violently raped by angry men.
Farmgirl
Posted by scottneb (Member # 676) on :
So then, what are some warning signs? How do you know what to look for?
I have absolutely no clue for an answer to these. It sounds like this type of character trait lies in wait inside every guy. There's only a few of us that supress it.
Posted by Rakeesh (Member # 2001) on :
Tresopax,
quote:I'd rather define it as nonconsenting sex when both participants knew it was nonconsenting. I think there's a significant difference in severity between the crime of the stupid guy who can't figure out a girl doesn't want to go further and the crime of the selfish guy who knows she doesn't and goes ahead anyway.
This is a disagreement we've had before. You know the saying, "Ignorance of the law is no excuse"? Sex is like that. Be sure. Don't guess. Don't say, "Well, it looks like she wants to have sex with me, even though she is kind of glassy-eyed and frozen right now..." Or, "That no didn't sound serious enough. She didn't mean it," or any one of a number of comforting phrases that really boils down to either it's her own fault or she wanted it.
To paraphrase you from another thread, you say for a nation to go to aggressive war, it must be sure it is absolutely right and be able to prove it. Why is sex different? Why, in sex, is it less reprehensible to force yourself on a person if you're only pretty sure they don't mind?
quote:That IS rape. My point was just that it was rape generated by a desire for sex, not necessariily by a desire to be powerful.
My point is that the crime is the same, the motive is not. Or I should say result, before you start using words like First Degree Murder and Manslaughter. Someone's still wrongfully dead at the end of it.
The one doing the "leading", the one asserting themselves in a sexual situation, doesn't get to set the rules for the game. They're either agreed to in advance, or there's a standard set every honest law-abiding and honorable person should adhere to. It doesn't include things like "I wasn't sure she didn't want sex with me, so I did it anyway," or, "I wanted it and I guess she wanted it," or, "I wanted it so much I didn't think or care about what she wanted."
Posted by Storm Saxon (Member # 3101) on :
quote: It sounds like this type of character trait lies in wait inside every guy. There's only a few of us that supress it.
Do you seriously think that there's a rapist waiting to burst free in every guy and that only a few men supress it?
Posted by Javert Hugo (Member # 3980) on :
*tackle hugs Rakeesh*
I'm katharina, silly.
Posted by Noemon (Member # 1115) on :
That's what Javert *wants* you to think, anyway.
Posted by Jenny Gardener (Member # 903) on :
It's really hard to outline some ways to tell. Mostly, it's a creepy feeling you get.
Hmmm.. You start feeling as if the guy is not seeing you as a person. He seems to be carrying on a conversation or interacting with you as a part he is playing, not because he is interested in YOU. He puts down your ideas and makes you feel unsure of yourself (date rapists, which I have unfortunately had experience with). He tries to isolate you away from others. It's not a you-and-him thing, it's a he's-trying-to-get-me-alone thing. He's very interested in any flirting/teasing/personal information, but not in ideas or arguments.
After I learned from the school of Hard Knocks, I would go out to flirt and have fun, but I never engaged in shallow conversations. Religion, philosophy, politics, literature, etc. These were my topics, and it winnowed out losers remarkably quickly. Only a very determined fellow would keep up the pursuit, and it was quite easy to tell if he was just trying to get me to come on to him or if the conversation was actually interesting to him. Of course, I went home from these nights alone...
But anyone who wants to keep from being raped needs to keep her awareness sharp, know her body well - its weaknesses and its strengths, and have a backup plan or two. Know where your exits are, have a lie handy, and maintain connections with people you can trust and fall back upon. Don't get hazy with alcohol unless you have someone who's got your back.
Posted by scottneb (Member # 676) on :
That is exactly what I mean. Although the ratio to those that do to those that don't I don't dare speculate about. The truth of the matter is, men are driven by their pants. That's very blunt and I'll probably hear more about that. Of course I'm talking in stereotypes, but it proves my point. The natural desire of men is to spread their seed were ever possible. In every living speces on the Earth, the males only seek to "get to the next female."
So, the choice is ours, take or don't take. But the impulse is in all of us.
Posted by scottneb (Member # 676) on :
...and the VIP of the thread goes to...
Jenny!!!
<crowd cheers>
Posted by Jenny Gardener (Member # 903) on :
Some very effective lies:
"I'm on the rag right now." Keep talking about a guy you're in love with. "I have to be somewhere (be specific) at certain time(again, be specific, and make the time VERY CLOSE to now)." "My dad/brother/boyfriend is a lawyer."
I'm sure you can think of others. I usually didn't bother with lies. I would say outright that I wasn't interested in sex or whatnot. Or that I wasn't interested in the guy. Or I would accept a compliment graciously, but not warm to it. Ice princess, with cool, intellectual conversation, but withdrawn from touching or innuendoes.
Posted by Farmgirl (Member # 5567) on :
quote: Do you seriously think that there's a rapist waiting to burst free in every guy and that only a few men supress it?
No, I don't think so.
Some men are extremely passive sexually.
I think the only warning sign I look for are men who are somewhat controlling -- whether openly or more subtlely (sp?). Men who are used to having their own way in everyday situations.
FG
Posted by Jenny Gardener (Member # 903) on :
Thanks for the homage!
But I cannot tell you how emotional this thread has made me. I am physically reacting as if I am in a dangerous situation - palms sweaty, senses heightened, muscles tense, etc. Once you've been in a bad situation sexually, you will do what you can to stay away from it. And you want to warn and help others.
I highly recommend some form of martial arts for all young ladies, and talking honestly about rape. Be prepared.
Posted by Sweet William (Member # 5212) on :
Some know the rules and completly disregard them. These men are selfish and only seek to fulfill their own urges. These are the men that women need to look out for, and these are the men that us guys have to seek to not become.
I would just add that these are the men that we decent men need to punish and shun. Harshly.
Instead, Kobe gets a standing ovation any time he goes out in public.
Husbands mistreat their wives, even in the presence of their children.
And then we wonder why so many young men act like beasts to women?
Posted by scottneb (Member # 676) on :
By all means, don't let us dig too deep Jen.
Posted by ana kata (Member # 5666) on :
To me this idea of "sex as conquest" is what's messed up. Some men tend to think of sex as a conquest. As something they take. Not something they give. All our slang terms illustrate this concept. The idea that Sex is something a man does to a woman, that he conquers her and takes something from her, is what's seriously messed up, in my opinion. If that idea weren't pervasive, there would be no rape. Where does that wrongheaded idea come from? Is it truly biological, or is it a social thing? Is it something that could be changed?
Posted by Jenny Gardener (Member # 903) on :
Farmgirl's nailed it. Controlling people don't tend to be very good in relationship. They can't handle the ambiguity, the risk of emotional hurt. So they take charge in ways they can understand, and don't pay attention to those they hurt.
My date rapist was a minister's son. He was charming, and a "good" boy. From what I've heard, my experience was quite common.
Posted by Tresopax (Member # 1063) on :
quote:So then, what are some warning signs? How do you know what to look for?
I'm not sure there are any very good warning signs, truthfully. I'd think a better option is to be safe always - always take simple precautions like not getting completely smashed in some guy's room, or learning some degree of self-defense, and being fully aware of exactly how far you are willing to go before the situation arises.
quote:To paraphrase you from another thread, you say for a nation to go to aggressive war, it must be sure it is absolutely right and be able to prove it. Why is sex different? Why, in sex, is it less reprehensible to force yourself on a person if you're only pretty sure they don't mind?
Rakeesh, of course a country that starts a wrongful war thinking it is right is not as bad as one that does so knowlingly. I'm not saying it's okay to have sex with someone without knowing whether it's okay. I'm not saying it wouldn't have the same effect. I'm saying that situations probably do arise where it happens, and that it's a much lesser crime than rape in the classic sense. If a couple gets completely drunk and the guy has intercourse with the girl, only to find out later that she would not have allowed him had she been more sober, I'm not going to give him the same punishment as the guy that breaks into a house and rapes some sleeping girl. Would you?
[ December 23, 2003, 04:08 PM: Message edited by: Tresopax ]
Posted by Storm Saxon (Member # 3101) on :
ak, women ARE often sexually and psychologically passive. For instance, the much bandied about prince charming idea revolves around a power imbalance.
It's hard for women to say 'no', sometimes. Please, don't load this all on how men think. If more women were more assertive, there would be fewer rapes, eh?
[ December 23, 2003, 04:21 PM: Message edited by: Storm Saxon ]
Posted by scottneb (Member # 676) on :
Agreed!
A passive woman is totally unattractive to me. The main thing that attracted me to my wife was her assertiveness and her being willing to get what she wanted.
Edit: Stupid grammar!
[ December 23, 2003, 04:22 PM: Message edited by: scottneb ]
Posted by ClaudiaTherese (Member # 923) on :
A person who loves you (even just as a friend) will take pleasure in your joy and be troubled by your pain.
If you are frightened, nervous, or even just uneasy, this should be troubling to your date, too. It shouldn't be a small thing, something silly to be pooh-poohed.
a) Trust your instincts. b) If your date cares for you, than he/she will want you to trust your instincts, too. Other responses are inappropriate. Period.
For example, this is good: "Gee, I'm sorry that this makes you feel uncomfortable. Why don't we put this off to another time -- you could give me a call if you're interested. Maybe we could do something else then."
These are bad: (the Belittler) "You're just being silly. Don't worry, everything's fine"
or "I think you're making a big deal out of nothing."
(the Anger Artist) "Why are you nervous around me? Don't you care how that makes me feel?"
(the Manipulator) "Hey, you know we're friends. I'd never do anything to hurt you."
Mix & match the above to get someone who's controlling, not so good at interpersonal relationships, and all around Bad News.
[ December 23, 2003, 04:42 PM: Message edited by: ClaudiaTherese ]
Posted by Jenny Gardener (Member # 903) on :
This is another reason I think CT is the wisest person I have ever met. I can personally attest to the damaging effects of all the phrases CT has listed.
Thankfully, perhaps my testimonial along with those of others will help some of the rest of you stay safe and healthy.
I do think that building up our daughters to know their own power is going to help them in the future. I was delighted when my daughter, out of the Blue, claimed she wanted an Eowyn action figure. She also has run around all Christmas break saying "I am no man!" So cute! (She saw the cartoon version)
Posted by Storm Saxon (Member # 3101) on :
Um, just because someone doesn't immediately agree with you, doesn't mean they are manipulating you. It just means that they don't agree with you, which is a normal part of human communication. All of the things that CT listed could, actually, be the way the person feels because of how you are communicating.
I don't disagree with what CT is saying in principle. If someone cares about you, they should be empathic to you and what you're saying to some degree. I just think the idea that someone has to immediately respond as wish to your every bit of nervousness/angst/ennui/anger/sadness might be a bit of a stretch. Women *can* blow things out of proportion and make big deals out of nothing, etc.
[ December 23, 2003, 07:59 PM: Message edited by: Storm Saxon ]
Posted by ana kata (Member # 5666) on :
Yes we also need a list here of all the ways guys on dates would try to bully you and intimidate you into doing things you didn't want to do.
We need to tell young girls this list, so they can know when they hear those things that they are not things that are said by people who care about them and about how they feel and what they want and what is right for them. They are said by guys who are thinking of themselves only, and not about you. Any time someone starts to bully you or coerce you, then you aren't in a loving situation anymore, and you need to get out of that situation entirely. It's not about sharing and giving anymore when that happens, it's about taking.
Posted by Tresopax (Member # 1063) on :
The problem with such a list is that it applies very poorly in real life. For one thing, perfectly decent people might say lines like that without bad intentions. Even married couples try to convince eachother of things, or think selfishly sometimes. For another thing, people tend not to be rational when they're relationshiping with someone of the opposite sex, and I suspect any list may be quickly forgotten when confronted with such a situation. For a third thing, many dangerous sorts won't be so obvious.
This is why I still think girls shouldn't rely on trying to distinguish between safe and unsafe guys. They need to take the precautions always.
Posted by ana kata (Member # 5666) on :
I think you have to trust some people at some time. It would have been very helpful to me if I could have heard or been taught how to know when someone is trustworthy, when to listen to their arguments, and how to tell if they are just in it for their own jollies, and not concerned about you at all.
Basically, any pressure or coercion means the person is bad news, I would think.
Posted by ClaudiaTherese (Member # 923) on :
quote:I just think the idea that someone has to immediately respond as wish to your every bit of nervousness/angst/ennui/anger/sadness might be a bit of a stretch. Women *can* blow things out of proportion and make big deals out of nothing, etc.
So ... why on earth would you hang around with someone who made a habit out of "blowing things out of proportion?" If that's what you think she's doing, then sayonara, Baby, is the appropriate response.
Let me repeat myself, because this is crystal clear to me:
So ... why on earth would you hang around with someone who made a habit out of "blowing things out of proportion?" If that's what you think she's doing, then sayonara, Baby, is the appropriate response.
(but a to you, Stormie )
Posted by Dan_raven (Member # 3383) on :
Derailment Alert:
But a thought crossed my mind. There are a lot of people who are very nervous about homosexuality. Most (but far from all) are men. I wonder what percentage of them (Small, but signifigant) worry about male rape, because it undermines their advantage.
A man can force an unwilling woman.
A woman cannot force an unwilling man, without the use of drugs or other devices. (This assumes arousal and willingness are identical. This can be debated, but would not be in the minds of the people I am thinking about).
You have Macho Man who can "take" any woman he wants, given the right set of circumstances. He is in charge and in power.
However, a gay man can "take" him, in the same degrading, painful, domineering way that he takes his women. As such, he is very anti-homosexual.
Posted by Storm Saxon (Member # 3101) on :
Well, if it's a *habit*, obviously you wouldn't.
My point is that simple disagreement does not denote a bad person, that disagreement is normal and happens all the time.
Obviously, a lot depends on the situation. If you feel really uncomfortable around someone, then it would seem to be the easiest thing in the world for you to say 'This is not working out. Don't call me again.' rather than depending on what the guy perceives, which is kind of what I'm getting from your post.
Here is a typical date that I've been on a million times:
Me: So, what would you like to eat? In the mood for anything?
Her: Oh, I don't care. Whatever you want.
*after meal*
Me: So, what movie would you like to see?
Her: Oh, I don't care. Whatever you want.
My perspective on this is that guys don't normally have a problem verbalizing what they want. At least I don't. (YMMV) Women are the ones that have a problem letting their date know what is on their minds and setting boundaries and rules and letting the other party know what is and is not acceptable.
See
quote: If you are frightened, nervous, or even just uneasy, this should be troubling to your date, too. It shouldn't be a small thing, something silly to be pooh-poohed
the thing is that a lot of women won't verbally tell their date how they are feeling, or communicate about what's going on for fear of giving offense.
To further illustrate this point, the number of times I've gotten numbers from women and it turns out they didn't actually want to go out with me is, well, large. Very irritating. Why couldn't they just say 'No, thanks. I'm not really interested.'? Did they think I was going to break down on the spot or shoot them?
So, my complaint with your post is that it assumes that there is clear communication going on about the woman's feelings, when in my experience this is often not the case. You are inviting the woman to assume that the guy should see things as she does and that she should assume that she is communicating clearly when that may or may not be the case.
Communication. Communication. Communication. If the woman doesn't clearly, verbally, communicate the boundaries in the relationship, then the onus is on her if the guy crosses them and doesn't take the 'hint'.
Perhaps sometimes rather than leaving at the first sign of trouble, people should communicate and try and work things out.
Posted by BannaOj (Member # 3206) on :
I just think the idea that someone has to immediately respond as wish to your every bit of nervousness/angst/ennui/anger/sadness might be a bit of a stretch. Men *can* blow things out of proportion and make big deals out of nothing, etc.
AJ
Posted by Storm Saxon (Member # 3101) on :
But of course it works both ways. Posted by Tresopax (Member # 1063) on :
quote:So ... why on earth would you hang around with someone who made a habit out of "blowing things out of proportion?" If that's what you think she's doing, then sayonara, Baby, is the appropriate response.
Let me point out that this rule would probably preclude you from hanging out with at least 50% of Jatraqueros. Posted by blacwolve (Member # 2972) on :
quote: A passive woman is totally unattractive to me. The main thing that attracted me to my wife was her assertiveness and her being willing to get what she wanted.
Statements like this, which I've seen many times at hatrack, irritate me to no end. I see this unspoken sentence: "So therefore, all women should be aggressive because it's what guys find attractive," tacked on the end of every statement like this, which seems to me to be more than a little hypocritical. Maybe it's because I'm a passive person as a general rule, but I resent the implication that I should change and make myself aggressive so that men will find me more attractive.
[ December 24, 2003, 12:55 PM: Message edited by: blacwolve ]
Posted by Hobbes (Member # 433) on :
From listening to guys on my dorm, it seems to me that the main problem (this is obviously all anecdotal, not actual data) is that it's just assumed that sex comes from a relationship. From both sides. In other words it doesn't matter which side is uneasy, everyone just assumes that they're supposed to want sex soon after getting together and so they do it. This isn't really rape in the traditional sense because it is consensual, but that doesn't mean both parties want it, just that both parties know they're supposed to want it.
As to the idea of men being lead by their pants, I think that's very untrue. Most men are not, most men are respectable and understanding, at least to the point where they would let the women make that choice. The guys who are lead by their pants at a high statistic are High School/College guys who are told that they're supposed to see things from that perspective. This is in no way an excuse for their behavoir, but it's true, guys somewhere between 15 and 24 seem to me to be the biggest problem, the guys who just assume that all they're supposed to be after is sex.
My roomate is like that, he's mostly a good guy as far as it goes. But he assumes he wants sex, he assumed I wanted sex the instant he met me, not because I said anything but because I was a college male. It's actually kind of depressing.
Hobbes Posted by Chris Bridges (Member # 1138) on :
I tend to see the 1-in-4 statistic reporting as a good thing, really.
Don't throw things! I mean the reporting, not the rapes or the quantity.
People (as a class) don't change, not easily and not quickly. The way people act now is very close to the way they've acted throughout recorded history, with occasional pockets of advancement that don't always last. I think rape has always been prevalent in just about every society I've ever read about, but until recently it wasn't reported as much. Either it was settled by the family, or ignored, or treated as essentially droit de signeur, or the woman simply never reported it out of shame or embarrassment or resignation.
The numbers do not, IMO, reflect a growing rate of rape but a growing rate of reporting rape, and that to me is a good thing. The more women who are willing to come forward and report a rape, the better. The more women who report it, the more other women will realize the dangers, the more other women will realize that it's not just them, that their lives can go on.
And the more it's reported, the more men will act to police themselves and each other.
Posted by scottneb (Member # 676) on :
Hobbes, you're right. I think that it is important to understand the cultural pressures on a guy between those ages to have sex. If a guy is a virgin after college he is seen as a loser by his fellow guys.
Another thing I'd like to say (not to Hobbes) is that I don't appreciate having my points added to, and thrown in my face. The point I made about attractiveness is very biased, because I know only what I see as attractive. By no means did I say the sentence you implied after I typed it. I really don't mean to derail, but that peived me.
[ December 24, 2003, 02:09 PM: Message edited by: scottneb ]
Posted by scottneb (Member # 676) on :
Oh...and...hugs all around! Posted by ClaudiaTherese (Member # 923) on :
Storm, when I get creeped out, I've learned to pay close attention. Not just "bored" or "sad," but creeped out -- i.e., "there's something not right about this situation or person." That's worth listening to, but as a younger woman, I felt guilty about being judgmental.
Actually, what I felt was proud of being non-judgmental. Of course, experience taught me that such a rush of pride or virtue was soon followed by fear and self-kickage for having gotten myself into yet another nasty situation. *wry look Never once has someone who initially creeped me out later turned out to have been worth the trouble.
I'm fine with not being close to half the population, even when it's such a select population as makes up Hatrack. Yep, it's cantankerous, selfish, and elitist -- but if you set off my creep-o-meter, it's sayonara.
On the other hand, I would go to the most extreme lengths to communicate effectively and be patient with my loved ones. They, however, don' creep me out -- they may frustrate me, anger me, confuse me, or what have you, but my loved ones never give me that pang of "oh-oh, something's wrong with this person, and dammit if I didn't leave my (metaphorical) door unlocked again." Not anymore, at least.
I wised up and got choosy. Mmmmm, sweet scrumptiolicious choosiness. Posted by Storm Saxon (Member # 3101) on :
Gotcha. Posted by Rakeesh (Member # 2001) on :
quote:It's hard for women to say 'no', sometimes. Please, don't load this all on how men think. If more women were more assertive, there would be fewer rapes, eh?
Yes, and I could counter if more men were willing to base sex on what their partner wants, rather than what they can get away with, there'd be fewer rapes. Eh?
quote:Um, just because someone doesn't immediately agree with you, doesn't mean they are manipulating you.
Of course it does. That's what a debate or argument is. Manipulate frequently carries a bad connotation, but that doesn't mean it's untrue either. My point is that if your partner isn't ready in and of themselves, then you have to realize how it's going to sound if you try and convince them immediately prior to the act.
A roughly relevant analogy. You go to a car dealership, looking to buy. What experience do you prefer? To have a guy pushing hard, pestering you to make a choice? Or the so-called soft-sell, the one who asks a few questions, listens, and then advises? I know which one I find more irritating, and I typically don't expect women to feel differently. I don't want to be the hard-sell car dealer, y'know? If I'm gonna be selling something, I find that the jam-your-foot-in-the-door approach isn't very effective. If it works, it's usually because the person feels forced into it. Worn down.
Am I the only one who thinks that's pretty sleazy? I ain't a monk or nothin'. I like to take my shot as well as the next guy in the bar or club or whatever. If I get turned down? I take maybe one more stab at it, and if that don't work I move on. Setting aside strict physiological responses, I'm really not feeling being with a woman whose resistance I hafta wear down right before sex.
And if I were thinking strictly with my...manhood, my experience tells me women are more inclined to think more fondly of you for not jamming your foot in the door, thus improving future chances.
quote:Women *can* blow things out of proportion and make big deals out of nothing, etc.
Here's the bottom line: when it comes to sexuality, we each get to decide what is and isn't a big deal. There's not some Metric System of Sexuality where a kilometer is 1,000 meters is 100,000 centimeters. Some of us are standard, some of us are metric, some of us are still usin' cubits, some of us are usin' stones, some of us aren't even using numbers.
Now, before you think I entirely disagree with you, I don't. The number of women I've encountered who send mixed signals, expect mind-readers, or aura-detectors is extremely frustrating. Communication is key, and ladies, expect irritation and maybe even some wheedling if a guy has been progressing through the relationship with a radically different set of beliefs and expectations about how things are between you.
But let me reiterate, silence doesn't give consent. Men, silence or ambivalence, nervous or not, doesn't equate to, "Hey, she totally digs me," or, "I'm in!"
![[Frown]](frown.gif)
![[Wink]](wink.gif)
![[Big Grin]](biggrin.gif)
She's much more accustomed to their mentality than I was as a young person.![[Hail]](graemlins/hail.gif)
![[Blushing]](graemlins/blushing.gif)
![[Kiss]](graemlins/kiss.gif)
to you, Stormie ![[Smile]](smile.gif)
(YMMV) Women are the ones that have a problem letting their date know what is on their minds and setting boundaries and rules and letting the other party know what is and is not acceptable.![[Taunt]](graemlins/taunt.gif)
![[Group Hug]](graemlins/grouphug.gif)