I heard a statistic one time about rape in the United States. It said that at the age of eighteen, one in four women will have been raped. Also, at age eighteen almost three out of four had been put in a situation in which they had to physically take action to divert the advances of a male. As I took a look at the women that I was close to at the time I found this startlingly true. This was further smacked into my head with the realization that I lived in a community that was a good 80% LDS. I'm not saying that the LDS guys are evil. I'm saying that I lived in a good community and were definitely on the lower side of the scale.
So, I want to discuss why this has happened. I also want to discuss the warning signs of guys that are out to do harm. Most importantly we should discuss ways to not be the victim.
That can be pretty easy, if you want to actually make sure never to become a victim. Never be alone with a male or female without at least one other couple with you. The more people around you, the less likely someone is going to try an illegal action.
Second, and one that really bothers me because it is often rejected as prudish, don't look the part of the hussey or whore. The messages you put out (how you dress, what you say, etc.) have to have some kind of impact.
Where do I believe the problems reside? In the sexed up society we currently have. When you have "sex is good, sex is natural, sex is easy, sex is life" plastered all over the place than you have to expect a particular rush to have sex. It becomes a status symbol. Then, when a woman doesn't accept a man's passes, he feels not just that the woman has rejected him, but society. It becomes a power issue.
The question I have is why women don't rape as much as men? My guess is that they are physically weaker and have less of a natural libedo.
posted
I believe the statistic is not that one in four will have been raped by eighteen, but that one in four will have been raped or had an attempted rape in their lifetime. *checks* yeah, that's it: http://www.oneinfour.com/facts.php .
Still, a very chilling statistic.
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If you take a look at porcelain girl's thread, you can see a common response from the women. Repulsion. A woman's sex drive is an entirely different beast, one that is much easier to tame. This is mainly because a man usually doesn't become 'attractive' until he has shown some sort of nurturing behavior. Men on the other hand are out for looks. If she has good hips (for birthing) big breasts (for better milk production, (which is entirely untrue)) etc. etc. Then she is, for a lack of a better word, targeted.
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Tres, you bring up an interesting point. I recognize that the problem also lay in wait among the LDS. But that is another discussion all together.
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Scott, I’m not sure I’m following you. Are you saying that the reason women are disgusted by a stranger making physical advances at work, is because women have a lower sex drive? And if so, do you think that if a forty year old woman walked up behind a twenty year old male at his desk and started stroking his neck that he would be pleased by this?
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quote: The question I have is why women don't rape as much as men? My guess is that they are physically weaker and have less of a natural libedo
I believe I have just as high, if not higher, sexual drive than many of the men I know (or have lived with). The difference is I have more self control And women tend to be more worried about consequences -- they don't lose sight of that in the heat of the moment as easily.
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I have to say I was completely taken aback by the assertion that women have a lower sex drive than men. That's certainly the social model that society has tried to force women into, historically, but there really isn't much truth to it, in my experience.
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quote: The question I have is why women don't rape as much as men? My guess is that they are physically weaker and have less of a natural libedo.
It's likely because rape is not about sex. It is about power, control and violence, and women are typically less violent than men as a rule.
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quote: if you want to actually make sure never to become a victim. Never be alone with a male or female without at least one other couple with you
That isn't as easy as it sounds.
When I was 17, I worked for a landscaping company. It was my summer job. The boss asked the team foreman and I to go pick up a certain tree (with a big tree spade). This was common. We got into the truck and drove several miles out of town to get this tree. When we were out in the field -- in the absolute middle of nowhere -- this foreman suddenly turned to me and informed me that he would NOT drive me back to town, and I would NOT have a job unless I consented to give sex to him right there. Right now. I was young and scared. He was big and much older. And up to this point, I had counted him as my friend. How many times does coersion like this NOT get reported as rape?
second example: Also as a teen, I was on a mountain trail ride with a outfitter group (you know, where you pay a crew to take you up in the mountains on horseback for several days of camping). The oldest member of the group was a doctor (physician), who was a jolly old guy that everyone liked. It was required for outfitters to have a doctor along on these rides. One evening as I walked past his tent (all tents were grouped together), he called for me, and had something he was showing me (I don't even remember what it was now). Naive' me, totally unexperienced with men, peeked in to get a better look at the object. He grabbed me, pulled me into the tent, and began fondling me. After a second for the shock and fear to pass, I threatened to scream loudly (there were lots of people around) if he didn't let me go. He let me go. But I was shaken up for the rest of the trip. And my aunt (who took me on the trip) didn't believe me and laughed it off.
Most recently -- I was an adult-- a single parent of three grade school aged kids. Low income. The school counselor requested a private meeting to discuss "concerns" he had about my kids. I met with him. He promptly tried to blackmail me into consenting to sex with him -- or else he was going to call SRS and say my kids were in some kind of danger and have them removed from the home. Threaten to take a mother's kids away from her and see what reaction that brings! He said, "who are they going to believe, a licensed trained psychologist like me, or a poor, stressed single mom like you?" (I called his bluff this time -- older and wiser).
I have told my 14 year old daughter ALL of these stories -- because I want her to be much more on guard and ready and less naive than I was in trusting others. I'm sorry that I've had to scare her with this, and I'm sorry if I've possibly colored her view of life and men, but I would rather it be that than her not know this stuff exists. We have also talked about different ways of handling such situations.
quote: When you have "sex is good, sex is natural, sex is easy, sex is life" plastered all over the place than you have to expect a particular rush to have sex.
Umm I think that would have everything to do natural selection and evolution, and not a lot to do with society. If sex were actually difficult our species might not be around today. And you SHOULD expect a rush or high when you have sex (consensually) regardless of whether you are male or female. Otherwise there is something wrong!
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There is a fundamental biological drive toward sex, of course, Bana, but surely you aren't arguing that all societies have been equally open and accepting of the human sex drive, right?
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Farmgirl, all I can say is...damn. I hate that you've had to experience that. I hate that people can be such miserable excuses for human beings. Too many of my friends have stories like yours. It makes me feel physically ill, and angry. I hope that your talks with your daughter have helped to keep her from having to go through something like that.
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quote:The difference is I have more self control And women tend to be more worried about consequences -- they don't lose sight of that in the heat of the moment as easily.
You're saying women have more self control and are more consequence-oriented? I definitely don't think that's any more true than the suggestion that women have a lesser sex drive.
quote:It's likely because rape is not about sex. It is about power, control and violence, and women are typically less violent than men as a rule.
Actually, at least in regards to the 1 in 4 statistic, I don't believe this is true. Based on what I've read about that particular statistic, a large percentage of the cases included there are instances where the male just wanted intercourse before the female was ready, and was apparently willing to ignore her opinion on the matter.
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posted
It's very difficult to discuss this without also discussing stereotypes. I made a statement based on what I know about the female sex-drive. Let's say that what I know is completly false, and that the female sex-drive is 'larger' than a male's. I think that because women are more conversational (if that's a word), their way of 'busting a move' isn't quite so obvious as a man's is. So in this context, when a man (innocently) comes on to a woman, in the only way he knows (which is pretty vulgar.) He is seen as repulsive, until of course he shows her, or something she values, repsect. At which time he is seen as charming.
Needless to say, the game is complicated. Some guys figure out the rules and play by them. Some guys don't know the rules, nor have the means to play by them. Some know the rules and completly disregard them. These men are selfish and only seek to fulfill their own urges. These are the men that women need to look out for, and these are the men that us guys have to seek to not become.
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posted
Tres, in that situation, it is still about power, or control at the very least. It's not just about sex - it's about putting one's own "needs" above the rights of another person.
quote: And if so, do you think that if a forty year old woman walked up behind a twenty year old male at his desk and started stroking his neck that he would be pleased by this?
Used to have this happen all the time at various nursing homes I worked at. Depending on who it is and how it's done, it ranges from 'how cute, she's interested in me. If only she were a few years younger. In any case, this feels really good.' to 'I am really not getting into you. Leave me alone.' At no time was I 'threatened' by it.
This is not to say that, for instance, Porcelain Girl is wrong in how she feels.
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Part of what I learned in a female self-defense course (karate based) was that your projected self-confidence can be one of the biggest deterrents to an attacker. You hold your head high, you move with confidence. You remain alert and aware of your surroundings. You look people in the eye. You also speak confidently and "own" the space around you. You don't allow anyone to enter that space without your express consent. You know what your body is capable of and are not afraid to use it.
I don't know if these things have been effective or not in my life, but I have not had the sort of uncomfortable and scary experiences Farmgirl relates since college, when I took that self-defense course.
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You know, I think there are a lot of common misperceptions about rape that greatly endanger women. Truth be told, they are afraid of the worng things, in my view.
Consider a situation I saw a million times at college. A girl gets drunk at a party and wants to go home afterward. She is afraid of being attacked by a rapist in the dark, so she gets some drunk guy at the party to escort her. It sounds like a safety precaution, but look again. Which do you think is more likely: that a random guy is going to jump out of the bushes and attack the girl, or that the guy escorting her is going to try to take advantage of her when they get back to her room? Consider the fact that the vast majority of rapes are perpretrated by people who knew the victims. You're not going to get raped by some homeless guy on the street or something - it's going to be some friend or acquintance. Thus the classic fears are misdirected.
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The times in my life that I have been approached like that have all been times when I was extremely vulnerable because of other things.
When I'm myself, it never happens. When I'm upset, it does.
I am SO not impressed with people in general because of it. For a wonderful few, they see vulnerability and refrain from respect. For the rest of the sucky human race, they see vulnerability and think, "Yay! Someone who won't/can't push away."
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posted
You can say its natural. You can say its biological. You can say its simply the differences between men and women. You can say its the confusion over what is and is not consent. You can say its society, that demands men have sex whenever aroused, and women don't. You can say its the confusion over male/female relations in a post-modern world. You can say she probably just sent the man the wrong signals, and he got carried away. You can say it. Go ahead. Its what the rapists say--to their lawyers, to their juries, to their victims, to themselves.
Say it all you like. Argue it. Prove it. Just don't do it.
No means no. Power does not equal sex. Just because you can, does not mean you have to. Just because she has to, does not mean its sex.
Its violence. Its abuse. Its wrong.
Its the theft of innocence, even if her innocence was given away long ago.
There are many types of innocence.
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posted
This is a statistic I've heard often, but one until now I didn't ask this question of: what does it categorize as rape?
Does it categorize as rape only overtly violent sexual assault, where the woman is left physically bloodied and bruised? Or does it include other forms of "non-violent" (insert cynical laugh) rape, as well? Drugs in the beverage, that sort of thing?
Naturally all are cowardly, despicable, and loathesome crimes, and if at all possible I hope every perpetrator spends a long, thoroughly unpleasant (and sometimes I hope equivalent) time in prison. That's just something I was curious about, that's all.
Hopefully, because the number is so horrifingly high, it includes all categories of non-consentual sex, which is the rightful definition of rape.
quote:Second, and one that really bothers me because it is often rejected as prudish, don't look the part of the hussey or whore. The messages you put out (how you dress, what you say, etc.) have to have some kind of impact.
This is the counsel of prudence, but not the counsel of justice. I cannot help that for the number of women to be so high, the majority of them must have not been dressed in a provocative fashion.
quote:Where do I believe the problems reside? In the sexed up society we currently have. When you have "sex is good, sex is natural, sex is easy, sex is life" plastered all over the place than you have to expect a particular rush to have sex. It becomes a status symbol. Then, when a woman doesn't accept a man's passes, he feels not just that the woman has rejected him, but society. It becomes a power issue.
I think this is incorrect. I have no data on it, but I think rape is either a more or less static crime, or it has decreased as time passes. Surely you must agree, in the Middle-Ages, or more recently when the "rule of thumb" prevailed, rape occurred more often than today? We live in a world where, until relatively recently, in most cultures the response to rape was either for the woman's family to kill the rapist, or the woman to marry him. These things do not fit in with the quote I just quoted.
Society expects and conditions women to have a lower sex drive than men. One is forced to wonder, however, with women's liberation and increasing equality of the sexes and scrutiny of gender-role creation, whether this will be viewed as true in another decade or century. Personally, although no one can say for sure, I think it won't be.
quote:Women are also more likely to prefer subtle uses of power, rather than overt ones.
Rivka, if true, I ask you why is this true? Personally I think women would be just as likely to enjoy overt uses of power-if current society and literally thousands of years of social conditioning hadn't taught them subtler arts.
Human beings have a natural tendancy to attempt whatever they will believe will work, with the least effort, that will acheive their goal.
quote:You're saying women have more self control and are more consequence-oriented? I definitely don't think that's any more true than the suggestion that women have a lesser sex drive.
I think this is true, but not because it's "natural". I think it's true because women have, until very recently, been forced to be very consequence oriented, particularly in matters of sexuality, than men. When you can't get a job that pays more than peanuts and celery sticks above minimum wage, and when all sex has the possibility of resulting in a pregnancy with no acceptable, available recourse except to have the child...these are the kinds of things that teach people to be "consequence oriented". You and I would be more consequence oriented if the options we had could be counted on one hand.
quote:Actually, at least in regards to the 1 in 4 statistic, I don't believe this is true. Based on what I've read about that particular statistic, a large percentage of the cases included there are instances where the male just wanted intercourse before the female was ready, and was apparently willing to ignore her opinion on the matter.
That's rape. Ask yourself, if you had a sister or a niece or a daughter, what would you call it if a man applied that rationale to her? I simply cannot believe you wouldn't call it rape. Woman-or man-expresses nonconsent to sex, and the man or woman continues irregardless of their sovereign control over their own body, that's rape. Doesn't have to be done at gunpoint to be rape.
And on an unrelated note of...ummm, thread procedure? Unless you're looking to start a napalm-fight in this thread, I advise you as a matter of rhetoric to find a different way of expressing that kind of opinion? It kind of pisses some people off. Or maybe it's just me. ----------- As to the original question, how to avoid becoming a victim?
One is to avoid situations where you will become a victim. However, simply speaking with a few women you know will demonstrate this is not always possible.
The second, reactive and active (not proactive and passive) means of not becoming a victim is a loud, carrying voice, knowledge of self-defense centered on escape and causing massive, painful damage to the assailant, and an ability to overcome the deer-in-the-headlights affect.
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posted
Before this thread gets too far, I'm going to make a prediction that if you actually look at the studies in which '1 in 4 women are raped or will have someone attempt to rape them.', you will find that the definition of rape in most of these studies is *very* low. For instance, recently a study was done that purported to show that some mind-bogglingly high percentage of women would be raped while in college. When you actually looked at the study, it was clear that they were making projections based solely off of the Freshman year in college--when logic would seem to dictate the the most women would be raped--and they were using women who themselves believed they hadn't been raped, but had been subjected to forced affection or something as victims of 'rape'.
Rape is a serious problem but I think another problem is the infation of statistics to fill an agenda. I'm not saying that it's not possible, just that I am highly skeptical and I think before we add any more to the culture of fear that seems to permeate this society, I think we should make sure that we understand that rape is very subjective and statistics like 1 in 4 can be manipulated.
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posted
Jenny's advice is excellent, and is valuable in a proactive and reactive situation.
Act like you're the cop on the beat with a gun on his hip, not like the little old lady coming home from the bank after cashing her social security check.
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posted
No, it is not the theft of innocence. It is the murder of choice. It is the taking of something not freely given. It is the objectification of a human being.
I don't think innocence has anything to do with it. A rapist doesn't hunt someone he perceives as "innocent". He takes, steals, and harms because someone is weaker than he. It is the triumph of power.
It is the same as beating a child or blackmailing someone. You are destroying a soul, because you want to show yourself that you can.
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posted
Actually, I think dressing "tarty" has very little to do with rape. If you dress sexy, yet present yourself with confidence, you are indeed likely to get attention, but it is easy to turn away unwanted approaches with subtle signals or a few words. You are saying to the boors "I am out of your league", and they accept it. You also have weapons - sharp high heels and sparkly sharp rings. You have the attention of other men, who will stare a guy down or step in when a jerk is bothering you.
Many rapes occur to sweet, demure women who wouldn't dream of dressing in a provocative fashion. This dress, coupled with their demeanor, signals that a woman is not comfortable with her sexuality and may be more easy to dominate.
Also, the women who are in a weakened state due to alcohol, drugs, weariness, or grief will be less aware of their surroundings, weaker both physically and emotionally, and less likely to be effective at fighting back.
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I'd rather define it as nonconsenting sex when both participants knew it was nonconsenting. I think there's a significant difference in severity between the crime of the stupid guy who can't figure out a girl doesn't want to go further and the crime of the selfish guy who knows she doesn't and goes ahead anyway.
quote:Actually, at least in regards to the 1 in 4 statistic, I don't believe this is true. Based on what I've read about that particular statistic, a large percentage of the cases included there are instances where the male just wanted intercourse before the female was ready, and was apparently willing to ignore her opinion on the matter.
That's rape. Ask yourself, if you had a sister or a niece or a daughter, what would you call it if a man applied that rationale to her? I simply cannot believe you wouldn't call it rape.
That IS rape. My point was just that it was rape generated by a desire for sex, not necessariily by a desire to be powerful.
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Thanks. Although seeing as how you're a Jatraquero of the male-persuasion, may I request you change that to, "am awed by, wish to be like, and give money to, Rakeesh?" It's just more masculine that way, don'tcha think? ----- Rape is theft. It is taking something that doesn't belong to you. It's not just one thing stolen, though, it's many. And it's not just one kind of thing stolen, it's many. And it's not just a one-time theft, it's a theft that lingers.
It's like picking some of the most valuable, cherished, and unguarded things from what is a person. Their soul, themselves, whatever. You know what they say about plowing a field? They plowed wide and deep, to suggest that they plowed over a large area as well as deep into the ground, so the job was bigger and more effective and would last longer? Rape is a theft like that. If a person's self is a field, then rape is salting that field both wide and deep, a terrible injury for a long time to come.
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posted
I agree with Jenny about carrying yourself with confidence, assertiveness in order to help being singled out as a potential victim.
I might add that when I was a teen (when most of those above situations I mentioned happened), I had been raised in an all-female family -- no brothers, and my dad was not in the home (my parents were divorced, so although I was very, very close to my dad, I didn't interact with him daily). I was not real confident around men because of this -- I had no real experience with them.
I'm hoping that because my daughter has two older brothers -- that she DOES NOT put up with any crap from -- she is more prepared than I. I don't see her acting timid around men as I did then -- she doesn't see men/boys as some strange/different creatures She's much more accustomed to their mentality than I was as a young person.
The few times I've been "harrassed" as an adult, I've been able to hold my own, stand my ground, and disfuse the situation. But that is much different than those women out there who are brutally and violently raped by angry men.
posted
So then, what are some warning signs? How do you know what to look for?
I have absolutely no clue for an answer to these. It sounds like this type of character trait lies in wait inside every guy. There's only a few of us that supress it.
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quote:I'd rather define it as nonconsenting sex when both participants knew it was nonconsenting. I think there's a significant difference in severity between the crime of the stupid guy who can't figure out a girl doesn't want to go further and the crime of the selfish guy who knows she doesn't and goes ahead anyway.
This is a disagreement we've had before. You know the saying, "Ignorance of the law is no excuse"? Sex is like that. Be sure. Don't guess. Don't say, "Well, it looks like she wants to have sex with me, even though she is kind of glassy-eyed and frozen right now..." Or, "That no didn't sound serious enough. She didn't mean it," or any one of a number of comforting phrases that really boils down to either it's her own fault or she wanted it.
To paraphrase you from another thread, you say for a nation to go to aggressive war, it must be sure it is absolutely right and be able to prove it. Why is sex different? Why, in sex, is it less reprehensible to force yourself on a person if you're only pretty sure they don't mind?
quote:That IS rape. My point was just that it was rape generated by a desire for sex, not necessariily by a desire to be powerful.
My point is that the crime is the same, the motive is not. Or I should say result, before you start using words like First Degree Murder and Manslaughter. Someone's still wrongfully dead at the end of it.
The one doing the "leading", the one asserting themselves in a sexual situation, doesn't get to set the rules for the game. They're either agreed to in advance, or there's a standard set every honest law-abiding and honorable person should adhere to. It doesn't include things like "I wasn't sure she didn't want sex with me, so I did it anyway," or, "I wanted it and I guess she wanted it," or, "I wanted it so much I didn't think or care about what she wanted."
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quote: It sounds like this type of character trait lies in wait inside every guy. There's only a few of us that supress it.
Do you seriously think that there's a rapist waiting to burst free in every guy and that only a few men supress it?
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posted
It's really hard to outline some ways to tell. Mostly, it's a creepy feeling you get.
Hmmm.. You start feeling as if the guy is not seeing you as a person. He seems to be carrying on a conversation or interacting with you as a part he is playing, not because he is interested in YOU. He puts down your ideas and makes you feel unsure of yourself (date rapists, which I have unfortunately had experience with). He tries to isolate you away from others. It's not a you-and-him thing, it's a he's-trying-to-get-me-alone thing. He's very interested in any flirting/teasing/personal information, but not in ideas or arguments.
After I learned from the school of Hard Knocks, I would go out to flirt and have fun, but I never engaged in shallow conversations. Religion, philosophy, politics, literature, etc. These were my topics, and it winnowed out losers remarkably quickly. Only a very determined fellow would keep up the pursuit, and it was quite easy to tell if he was just trying to get me to come on to him or if the conversation was actually interesting to him. Of course, I went home from these nights alone...
But anyone who wants to keep from being raped needs to keep her awareness sharp, know her body well - its weaknesses and its strengths, and have a backup plan or two. Know where your exits are, have a lie handy, and maintain connections with people you can trust and fall back upon. Don't get hazy with alcohol unless you have someone who's got your back.
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posted
That is exactly what I mean. Although the ratio to those that do to those that don't I don't dare speculate about. The truth of the matter is, men are driven by their pants. That's very blunt and I'll probably hear more about that. Of course I'm talking in stereotypes, but it proves my point. The natural desire of men is to spread their seed were ever possible. In every living speces on the Earth, the males only seek to "get to the next female."
So, the choice is ours, take or don't take. But the impulse is in all of us.
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"I'm on the rag right now." Keep talking about a guy you're in love with. "I have to be somewhere (be specific) at certain time(again, be specific, and make the time VERY CLOSE to now)." "My dad/brother/boyfriend is a lawyer."
I'm sure you can think of others. I usually didn't bother with lies. I would say outright that I wasn't interested in sex or whatnot. Or that I wasn't interested in the guy. Or I would accept a compliment graciously, but not warm to it. Ice princess, with cool, intellectual conversation, but withdrawn from touching or innuendoes.
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quote: Do you seriously think that there's a rapist waiting to burst free in every guy and that only a few men supress it?
No, I don't think so.
Some men are extremely passive sexually.
I think the only warning sign I look for are men who are somewhat controlling -- whether openly or more subtlely (sp?). Men who are used to having their own way in everyday situations.
But I cannot tell you how emotional this thread has made me. I am physically reacting as if I am in a dangerous situation - palms sweaty, senses heightened, muscles tense, etc. Once you've been in a bad situation sexually, you will do what you can to stay away from it. And you want to warn and help others.
I highly recommend some form of martial arts for all young ladies, and talking honestly about rape. Be prepared.
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posted
Some know the rules and completly disregard them. These men are selfish and only seek to fulfill their own urges. These are the men that women need to look out for, and these are the men that us guys have to seek to not become.
I would just add that these are the men that we decent men need to punish and shun. Harshly.
Instead, Kobe gets a standing ovation any time he goes out in public.
Husbands mistreat their wives, even in the presence of their children.
And then we wonder why so many young men act like beasts to women?
Posts: 524 | Registered: May 2003
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posted
To me this idea of "sex as conquest" is what's messed up. Some men tend to think of sex as a conquest. As something they take. Not something they give. All our slang terms illustrate this concept. The idea that Sex is something a man does to a woman, that he conquers her and takes something from her, is what's seriously messed up, in my opinion. If that idea weren't pervasive, there would be no rape. Where does that wrongheaded idea come from? Is it truly biological, or is it a social thing? Is it something that could be changed?
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