.... Well thats what I got told the other day by a very nice man in Cathedral square. Me and a few of my friends were just walking through minding our own business when a guy came up to us and asked us if we could please help him, we had to complete a survey and then he would tell us the perfect definition of a Christian. Well none of us are Christians but since he asked us nicely we did this for him. And then very nicely he told us that we were all liers, cheaters, stealers and whores..... Well not told but very nicely implied....And we were going to hell, he actually told us that one. lol he was a very nice man. But it just ruined my day and had me raging for the next couple of hours about it. I absolutly HATE anybody trying to convert me into ANYTHING! Whether it's believing in God or not believing in him. The more they try to push me the more I try to resist. It's annoying how someone so nice can be, well, so not nice. I definitly don't appreciate being told to go to hell while I am out walking in town(even if it may be true:P). Anyway well thats my rant. I wonder what he would of said if we had told him we were Buddhist or Muslim? Posted by Phanto (Member # 5897) on :
Well, to be honest, anyone who doesn't accept the Source from Under Water is going to hell...
But that's my personal belief, and I would never force it on anyone; what that man did was weird, wacko, and crazy.
Posted by Storm Saxon (Member # 3101) on :
Same thing. Maybe a little nicer. I think the hierarchy in hell for some types of Christians probably goes (from lowest in hell to highest):
atheists unitarians muslims catholics mormons common criminals
Posted by Kwea (Member # 2199) on :
Most mainstream Christians would probably fit his description as hellbound too....don't feel bad!
Most of us aren't like that at all.
OK, I lied...it was me...
Kwea
Posted by Xaposert (Member # 1612) on :
Is it the being converted you hate or the calling you liers, cheaters, stealers and whores? Posted by Taalcon (Member # 839) on :
quote: I absolutly HATE anybody trying to convert me into ANYTHING! Whether it's believing in God or not believing in him. The more they try to push me the more I try to resist.
Which is why, in my opinion, once a person displays without a doubt that they're not interested in the message you're talking about, you thank them for their time and either leave, or change the subject.
Don't hate people for sharing a message that, in many cases, they view as one of love (even when idiots have a pretty poor idea of how to convey that message - this guy is an embarassment, plain and simple).
But once you've said no you're not interested and they keep going on, they've overstepped their bounds.
It's just sad to think there's a lot of really great people out there who have a belief different than yours who are looking out for, in their minds, your eternal wellbeing, and are hated for it.
Just keep in mind that not all those who want to convert you think you're an evil, hell-bound whore. It's just the very vocal minority who like to do this. Like this guy.
Posted by stacey (Member # 3661) on :
haha, can I hate both? No Christians won't go to hell because they have TURNED and SURRENDED to God! And thats what I have to do if I don't wanna go to hell.
Posted by J T Stryker (Member # 6300) on :
I've been told that i'm going to hell many times, and I always reply, "You go to heavan for the weather, but hell for the company."
Posted by dkw (Member # 3264) on :
My standard reply is, “I’m very glad you’re not the one who makes that decision.”
Posted by Hobbes (Member # 433) on :
Ohh, I have a story that fits here! There's a non-denominational, evangelical preacher that cocmes to Purdue's campus a few times a semester, I've talked to him once...
Anyways, one day he was out there, unbeknownst to a couple of Mormon missionaries, who were walking through campus (keep in mind, Mormon missionaries are 19-21 year old guys typically, normally great, fun and enthusiastic, and for people their age I would say that they tend to know a good amount about the gospel, if only because as a missionary you spend a lot of time studing it, but they could never compete with a true-blue evangelical preacher like this guy). So he's standing out there preaching when they walk by, and all of a sudden he see them through the crows and cries out "Ahh, look, MORMONS!". Of course he then attempted to explain very loudly why the Mormon Church is a false and dangerous cult, but really, his intial reaction is the priceless part.
Hobbes Posted by blacwolve (Member # 2972) on :
Hobbes, I walked past him the other day as he was explaining ernestly that just as he has faith in the makers of Pepsi that his Pepsi will be good, we should all have faith in God. Posted by tt&t (Member # 5600) on :
Stacey, are you claiming you're NOT a liar, cheater, stealer and whore? I'm gonna need to see proof, I'm afraid. Posted by EarlNMeyer-Flask (Member # 1546) on :
I have a related story. I was walking near a church (it was a couple of blocks away), and this black guy offered me some crack. I just hate it when people offer me crack.
Posted by Raia (Member # 4700) on :
Storytime!
My dad, before I came along, used to guide tours... in Turkey, in England, but mainly in Israel, or more specifically, Jerusalem.
Well, there's this "disease" called The Jerusalem Syndrome, in which people are convinced that the Messiah is everywhere, and will come back one day to save everyone. Either that, or they think they themselves are the savior of the people.
Anyway, my dad was guiding a tour in Jerusalem outside some church or another (at the moment, I don't remember which one), and there was an afflicted person standing outside, addressing a large group of people (as so accurately depicted in Monty Python's Life of Brian):
"The Messiah is around us! The Messiah is here! The Messiah could be in this group right now!" My dad's tour group wanted to stand and watch this man, to see what would happen or what he would do, so the entire group stood and stared at him. This seemed to give the man encouragement, so he came right up into the middle of my dad's group, and started screaming again, "The Messiah is right here, right now!"
Suddenly, he stopped shouting, and stared at my dad, looked at him from head to toe... and said "but it can't be you, you're too short!"
I love this story. My little sister and I are forever asking my dad to tell it to us again!
Posted by sarahdipity (Member # 3254) on :
At UNL we used to have people come with signs and huge crosses. And the main guy would yell at you while you walked by saying you're a slut b/c of the way you're dressed. Or that we were all going to hell because we were at the university. THe saddest thing was that he had kids who handed out pamphlets. I thought they should have been in school. But with the stuff he was shouting I figured there wasn't much chance he'd be teaching them much more than the basics of the 3 Rs.
Posted by the master (Member # 6788) on :
my second semester at purdue, there was a prolife group that had little kids handing out pictures of aborted fetuses. i wondered how that could be more important than school.
and on topic, i almost got used to being told i was going to hell after 4 years in alabama. i didn't even have to fill out a survey or anything. i just had to say "no thank you" to prayer meetings and bible studies. oh, and dare to ride elevators.
Posted by kyrie (Member # 6415) on :
wow I feel so sorry for the kids handing out paphlets with their dad and the little kids handing out stuff too. I mean its one thing to do something like that once your done with highschool, and choise to do it. At that age it dosent sound like they even had a choice in the matter!
Posted by Rappin' Ronnie Reagan (Member # 5626) on :
In 10th grade three friends and I would sit together at lunch. One of them was an EXTREMELY religious Baptist. (She told two of my friends who are Methodist that they are going to hell because they aren't Baptist.) So one day the other two people decided to leave, and I was left alone with the extremely religious friend. She decided it was the perfect opportunity to ask me why I wasn't a Christian. Let me tell you, THAT was a fun conversation. I felt like I was defending the whole scientific community. The argument basically ended with me saying that I didn't want to argue about it.
The only time I remember anything like that happening with a stranger was when I was walking back from an assembly in high school and I had a pin on my backpack that said "Thank God I'm An Atheist". The person behind me asked what atheist meant, and when her friend explained it to her, she told me, "Oh, I'm sorry".
Posted by dabbler (Member # 6443) on :
On a lighter note, I'm going to Hell tonight.
Posted by Psycho Triad (Member # 3331) on :
*puts out "Welcome to Hell!" sign*
*sets out stack of "I'm in hell, what now?" brochures*
Prepares s'mores, with stale graham crackers and no chocolate* Posted by beverly (Member # 6246) on :
quote: Prepares s'mores, with stale graham crackers and no chocolate*
Nooooooo!
Posted by Dan_raven (Member # 3383) on :
Thank you.
I just figured out what I dislike so much about this style of conversion, and this includes things like the "Chick" tracts.
By posing as a simple surveyer, then breaking into Evangelical spiel they are not truthful. They are trying to trick you into converting. Using lies and innuendo and fear, they try to fool you into being a Christian.
That is not the Christian way.
In fact, lies, fear, and basic trickery is the hallmark of the devil and Hell.
Hmmm, sounds like the guy in the square may be closer to the dark realm than he realizes.
Posted by Fyfe (Member # 937) on :
We had some hard-core Christians come to talk to the whole university yesterday; they hung out in Free Speech Alley for most of the day condemning footbal. Could've told them that was the wrong approach. I talked them for a really long time; I recorded some of it.
Charlie the Christian's cop-out answer on Paul's authority, the Old Testament, and homosexuality:
quote: Jenny: Well, also...Paul says something about usurers, people who charge interest on loans. So do you have anything against people who charge interest on loans? Charlie: Uh—I don’t charge interest on loans. I really haven’t looked into that, you know. I mean, what I know, though, is that if somebody really wants to follow Jesus, and they submit to him, then God will lead them into all truth, and help them to work through these difficult things. Jenny: Like homosexuality? Charlie: I do know this. The Bible says all Scripture is given by inspiration of God. It’s all profitable. There’s something that the Old Testament can teach us.
But my personal favorite line was this:
quote: Charlie: Shiva’s a demon.
(He also called me a demon, because I was wearing a necklace with Shiva on it, but I didn't get a recording of that.) I was being very polite to them, so I didn't get them to say any of the really entertaining things to me. I did take a picture of the sandwich board one of them was wearing, with a sin list on it. Potty-mouths and Mormons were prominent.
The best part was when people made them mad. They'd just quit talking then; they'd shake their heads in despair and mutter, "You lying viper. You filthy hypocrite."
Jen
[ September 15, 2004, 07:40 PM: Message edited by: Fyfe ]
Posted by Alucard... (Member # 4924) on :
My aunt is a Benedictine Sister (a nun) and is fond of telling me this account of a sister who viewed Hell in its actuality for a brief moment. She felt compelled to urge all sinners to repent to avoid the terrors that await those who suffer eternal fire.
Now maybe I am the doubting Thomas, but some of the fun pranking and goofing off I did as an adolescent were most definitely able to be labeled as sinful. So if all those ornery things I did are going to make me go to a place with similar individuals, I have to question the very makeup of hell. And while I am laminating my first-class ticket to hell, I have to question the very makeup of heaven.
Contrary to popular belief, I do not want to hang out in flowing robes and play the harp while floating around on a cloud.
So I guess I am questioning the entire reward/punishment system of Christianity and I am hoping faithfully that this is one of those mysteries that is much more complex than we are told through doctrine.
In other words, enlightenment.
So I am frustrated when I am told EXACTLY what I should believe and should pray upon, but when I ask for details, I am given no answers by these very same people, and that I have to wait to find out about all these sacred mysteries...
Ah heck, just have the mother ship beam me up. I tire of this planet.
[ September 15, 2004, 07:57 PM: Message edited by: Alucard... ]
Posted by Teshi (Member # 5024) on :
There was a Jesus Parade last saturday around here and a friend and I were cornered by a very nice man who gave out a little pamphlet. My friend was terrified and took the pamphet then walked away whispering to me about how she hated being converted and could we walk quicker please.
The presentation of the pamphlet was nice but the information in the pamphlet was pretty condemning. It was like: "Welcome to Christ! YOU'RE GOING TO HELL!" Not particularly, in my opinion, friendly.
We recycled them .
Posted by Taalcon (Member # 839) on :
quote: So I guess I am questioning the entire reward/punishment system of Christianity and I am hoping faithfully that this is one of those mysteries that is much more complex than we are told through doctrine.
Has a lot to do with whose doctrine you're listening to, or not listening to Posted by Da_Goat (Member # 5529) on :
Hobbes, I've had an experience like that, except we were Jehovah's Witnesses (a friend and I) walking by while he called us Mormons and explained why we shouldn't be one (and, of course, he didn't use any reasons that were valid at all - just stuff about polygamy and all that wish-wash). He had some freaky dogs, though, and we were on our way to lunch, so we didn't stop to correct him. We wouldn't have known where to start, anyawy.
Anyway, yeah, people are stupid.
quote:The more they try to push me the more I try to resist.
Right on! Fight the power! Dang the man!
Posted by Frisco (Member # 3765) on :
quote:Dang the man!
The phrase loses some of its oomph when it's neutered, doesn't it.
[ September 15, 2004, 08:54 PM: Message edited by: Frisco ]
Posted by Zevlag (Member # 1405) on :
If Kylie is demanding proof that you aren't, then I'm going to have to also Posted by ElJay (Member # 6358) on :
quote: he told us that we were all liars, cheaters, stealers and whores.....
The last time someone called me a whore I laughed and said "Are you kidding? I give it away."
He had no response, and I sailed on by.
Posted by Hobbes (Member # 433) on :
Just as a friendly suggestion to everyone, you can avoid a lot of these problems by biking at 15mph or above everywhere, whose going to talk to you then?
Hobbes Posted by Sara Sasse (Member # 6804) on :
@ElJay
Raia, fascinating link on Jerusalem Syndrome. We wouldn't want a short savior, would we?
Posted by Raia (Member # 4700) on :
God forbid! Tfu tfu tfu! Posted by Annie (Member # 295) on :
quote: oh, and dare to ride elevators.
Heh. I'd like to know the reasoning for this odd paranoia.
I don't have much problem with people saying what they will about religion; I like to hear the hairbrained ideas provided that they're phrased unoffensively. I had a friend my freshman year with whom I'd often eat lunch. He was a brilliant kid, a physics student I believe, and a diehard "non denominational" Christian. Once he found out I was Mormon, we had all kinds of interesting conversations. He asked me why I thought the LDS church could be true, and I told him that I was really comforted by the fact that a worldwide religion could be so cohesive. For me, the fact that on any given Sunday, in any given LDS church anywhere in the world you'll have the same Sunday School lesson teaching the same doctrine was a good sign of credibility for me.
He responded that he had always believed the teaching that the Mormons were the army of the Anti-Christ and that they were well-organized because Satan was firmly in control.
I had a jovial enough relationship with this kid that I wasn't offended in the least and I was actually impressed by his efforts to show me the error of my ways.
I don't understand, however, the righteous wrath that leads people to vocally condemn passersby. Perhaps they think scaring others to repentance is an act of love, but I don't understand how they reconcile this with Christ's attitude of benevolence to publicans and sinners.
Posted by Dan_raven (Member # 3383) on :
Why do they do this?
Because they fear that you may be right. Even entertaining the possibility that you may in some way be right, means there is a possibility that in some way that would make them wrong.
They are perfect and can't be wrong.
Its all about the ego my friend. Its all about the ego.
Posted by Jutsa Notha Name (Member # 4485) on :
quote:For me, the fact that on any given Sunday, in any given LDS church anywhere in the world you'll have the same Sunday School lesson teaching the same doctrine was a good sign of credibility for me.
Weren't you one of a small group of others on this forum who have pointed out that Mormons in different regions are in fact different? I remember someone talking about some doctrinal silliness with someone they knew in Utah, and a few individuals here saying that they are Mormon and that this is not what they grew up learning. I do wish I had the details of the incident to further support my impression, but I am almost sure that your statement seems more like a matter of selective memory of cohesion than any actual superior cohesion.
I'm not a Mormon though, so take my words with a grain of salt. I just don't trust claims like that made by any religious group, because there are way too many variables that are being ignored in such a statement.
Posted by katharina (Member # 827) on :
I think...
I think that everyone has their ego and their self-worth tied up in something. For some people it's their car, for some people it's their social position in their family or otherwise, for some people it's their art they produce, for some people it's their salary, for some people it's their belief system, for some its their sense of humor. It's not even bad - I think it's just the way human beings are. You have to identify yourself with something.
The rotten reactions that you see are not the result of what they love, but simply a human reaction to protect that...self-image they have developed. What it actually is becomes a McGuffin - it doesn't matter. Even that itself isn't necessarily bad - I truly believe that everyone does it. If someone does NOT identify with something, have nothing that they feel defines them in part, then it's a breath closer to sociopsychopath.
Anyway, in answer to how can someone react in defense of someone or something in a way that seems to completely contradicts what that someone or something says, it's because that's how they react in defense of their McGuffin. That's just human.
Posted by katharina (Member # 827) on :
quote:Weren't you one of a small group of others on this forum who have pointed out that Mormons in different regions are in fact different?
The culture is different, so the false doctrine and folklore that creeps in will be different. The Church service and curriculum is nearly identical. Considering the number of languages and the differences in custom, it's pretty amazing.
When I was in Prague, I went to church there. Didn't speak of any of the language, of course, and I didn't get the content of the lesson, but it was still church. Pretty cool.
[ September 16, 2004, 12:58 PM: Message edited by: katharina ]
Posted by prolixshore (Member # 4496) on :
I've been told by many christians that I go to church with or work with in the community that I am going to hell. All because I have a sense of humor about religion. Just cause I can laugh at jokes made about christians doesn't make me any less of one. It just means I am not easily offended.
That being said, I once got kicked out of a Sunday school class for making a "sacreligious" video about Jesus and cheese. Hmmm, since food is involved would it be Sacrelicious? have to ask Bob about that one.
--ApostleRadio
Posted by Jutsa Notha Name (Member # 4485) on :
quote:The culture is different, so the false doctrine and folklore that creeps in will be different. The Church service and curriculum is nearly identical. Considering the number of languages and the differences in custom, it's pretty amazing.
When I was in Prague, I went to church there. Didn't speak of any of the language, of course, and I didn't get the content of the lesson, but it was still church. Pretty cool.
This is different from the different denominational conventions how, exactly? No matter what Catholic church I go to, the familiarity of ceremony is still there. I would be hard pressed to find a Methodist church that was in some way noticably different than other Methodist churches. I can't speak for every denomination, not being a member, but I can say that the common thread exists throughout any church. Not just Christian ones, by the way.
This goes back to my original question, which is how can this claim of a supposed higher credibility be taken seriously when it is common enough in more than just one religion? I'm not addressing just Mormons on this, but this forum having a higher Mormon population than anywhere else I've seen, that single statement jumped out at me as an example of something that always came across as a spurious claim.
Posted by Annie (Member # 295) on :
Justa, I have talked of such regional quirks often, but they have always been cultural matters. It may sound like I'm rationalizing, but honestly, Mormon culture (since it grew up in such an isolated place for so long) is quite differentiable from Mormon doctrine when you're familiar with both. I've never lived in Utah, and I find a lot of their social customs strange, but I've attended church services in Utah on occasion and found them nearly identical to other LDS services I've attended across the United States and in Europe.
Posted by Annie (Member # 295) on :
quote:I would be hard pressed to find a Methodist church that was in some way noticably different than other Methodist churches. I can't speak for every denomination, not being a member, but I can say that the common thread exists throughout any church. Not just Christian ones, by the way.
And it's not just a common thread. The Sunday School classes are being taught out of the exact same manuals. Unlike denominations that are more democratic about their doctrine, LDS churches teach the same doctrines worldwide.
Posted by Annie (Member # 295) on :
I'd really rather not derail this thread, though. I think we had good conversation going on about in-your-face proselyting.
Posted by dkw (Member # 3264) on :
Annie, almost all mainline protestant denominations and Roman Catholics have denominational publishing houses that produce their curriculum. That isn't unique to LDS.
Posted by Dagonee (Member # 5818) on :
Catholic masses worldwide have the same readings and they contain the same Eucharistic prayer, the same elements. Such conformity is not enough to generate credibility, since conflicting belief systems can claim it.
I do think it's a good thing. It's just not proof of anything.
Dagonee
Posted by katharina (Member # 827) on :
I love it, but I agree that it isn't the definitive reason. It's reassuring, though, I think partly because of this:
quote:D&C 109: 8 8 Organize yourselves; prepare every needful thing, and establish a house, even a house of prayer, a house of fasting, a house of faith, a house of learning, a house of glory, a house of order, a house of God;
D&C 132: 8 8 Behold, mine house is a house of order, saith the Lord God, and not a house of confusion.
emphasis mine Posted by Jutsa Notha Name (Member # 4485) on :
Thank you dkw and Dagonee.
I am not derailing the thread with this. I am saying that this sort of thing is exactly the kind of stuff that actually pushes people away while the person stating the things is assuming they are saying a good thing. Even here on this forum, I have been chastized for how I am perceived as saying things, even when I mean or am implying nothing of the sort. While the person making the claim may think they are sharing a message of love and caring, all the receiver of the message is hearing is "you are not good enough and you are going to Hell." I remember reading somewhere an essay on how evangelizing is actually more effective as an exercise to strengthen faith in the person doing the evangelizing than it is as a conversion tool, and I tend to agree with it.
Posted by katharina (Member # 827) on :
I agree that it strengthens the person saying it, but missionary work also works.
Posted by dkw (Member # 3264) on :
Justa, I think I see your point. It’s not as obvious as the “you’re going to hell” push, but it could lower a person’s credibility if they claim something as unique to their religion that is actually common.
Annie, I know of no denominations that don’t teach the same doctrines worldwide. It’s a matter of definition -- if they aren’t something that’s agreed on throughout the denomination, then they aren’t doctrines.
Posted by Jutsa Notha Name (Member # 4485) on :
quote:I agree that it strengthens the person saying it, but missionary work also works.
And it also annoys the hell out of people. But it also sometimes creates friends where conversion doesn't come into play. It also give someone a chance to travel. It can also expose someone to aspects of cultures they never understood or knew before.
In the end, evangelizing always has more pros for the person evangelizing than the people being evangelized to, which is what I agree with. Evangelizing really is just a nice way of calling something that is just telling others they are going to Hell.
[ September 16, 2004, 01:41 PM: Message edited by: Jutsa Notha Name ]
Posted by Scott R (Member # 567) on :
I think that the push to get the teaching generalized for the church is relatively new to Mormons.
I can remember when the Teachings of the Prophets program came out, everyone was all, "Ooo, now we can talk about lessons at home and have the same lesson to discuss."
Posted by katharina (Member # 827) on :
quote:In the end, evangelizing always has more pros for the person evangelizing than the people being evangelized to, which is what I agree with.
Except when the missionaries find the people who want to join the church.
quote:Evangelizing really is just a nice way of calling something that is just telling others they are going to Hell.
I'm sorry you feel that way - seriously. It sounds like either had a bad experience or else haven't had much experience and are reacting to stories. There are lots who have had good experiences.
[ September 16, 2004, 01:45 PM: Message edited by: katharina ]
Posted by Scott R (Member # 567) on :
quote:evangelizing always has more pros for the person evangelizing than the people being evangelized to, which is what I agree with.
Really? How do you gather this point? I don't disagree with you, knowing how much my mission meant to me, and being unable to see from the point of view of the people I converted. . .
quote: Evangelizing really is just a nice way of calling something that is just telling others they are going to Hell.
I was a missionary, and never once told someone they were going to Hell. Not even Mormon hell, which at first glance, is a lot more tame than the other Christian hells (IMO). I'll bet dkw has done the same. And we're not even in the same theological sphere.
Must be the folks you hang out with, JNN.
[ September 16, 2004, 01:47 PM: Message edited by: Scott R ]
Posted by Farmgirl (Member # 5567) on :
quote: Annie, I know of no denominations that don’t teach the same doctrines worldwide. It’s a matter of definition -- if they aren’t something that’s agreed on throughout the denomination, then they aren’t doctrines.
I don't think that was exactly what Annie was referring to, dkw, if you don't mind me saying so.
It was pointed out to me during the short time I attended LDS services that if, say -- this Kansas ward was studying Chapter 2, page 10 in this particular book on this particular Sunday in Sunday school, so was every other Mormon ward in the country. So if I went to ward in Iowa the next week, I would be picking exactly the next page.
So it isn't just that they teach the same doctrines from church to church (as other demoninations do) but they are entirely lock-step within each building as to what is taught on which day so anyone traveling never misses a piece. I can't say that I have ever seen it that tight in Protestant demoninations.
Farmgirl
Posted by Dagonee (Member # 5818) on :
quote:In the end, evangelizing always has more pros for the person evangelizing than the people being evangelized to
Unless, of course, the evangelizing person is right about what's required for salvation and the person receiving the message accepts it. Then they've gained an awful lot, haven't they?
Dagonee
Posted by Jutsa Notha Name (Member # 4485) on :
Well, I'm going to opt out of continuing here, because it is obviously going to devolve into condescension going both ways. On one hand, it is going to look like I have a chip on my shoulder, which I don't. On the other hand, continued comments claiming Love and Caring are going to be used to describe the act of telling others where their beliefs are leading them away from Truth or, in other words, how their beliefs are Wrong. I have no desire to eight pages of what are obviously divergent belief systems. Please do me the favor of not assuming anything happened to me worth pitying me for, because I need no pity. I am not injured or angry or sad or needy. Thank you but no thank you.
Posted by dkw (Member # 3264) on :
Farmgirl, if the churches follow the Revised Common Lectionary (which is recommended, though not enforced, by most protestant denominations and is becoming more common in the last decade or so) not only could you go into any church of your own denomination, but any Catholic, Lutheran, Episcopalian, Presbyterian, UCC, United Methodist, Christian Church (disciples), or Community of Christ (formerly Reorganized Church of JC LDS) and hear the same readings.
Posted by Hobbes (Member # 433) on :
quote:Justa, I think I see your point. It’s not as obvious as the “you’re going to hell” push, but it could lower a person’s credibility if they claim something as unique to their religion that is actually common.
Annie, I know of no denominations that don’t teach the same doctrines worldwide. It’s a matter of definition -- if they aren’t something that’s agreed on throughout the denomination, then they aren’t doctrines.
DKW, just to keep in mind, Annie was describing something that happened to her, and one of the responses that she felt worked for the situation that she used. The fact is that the Mormon Church has one of the strictest regulations about what is taught when of any Christian Church. As Farmgirl said, the schedual about what chapters in the scriptures will be taught (or chapter from a Church issued manual) is very specific and always the same across the world. Of course the doctrine differences arise because we can both read a chapter in the scriptures and come up with two completely different lessons from it, but assuming we're following the schedual, we'll both be teaching the same scripture (or from the same lesson material).
If you ask Annie what the foundation of her belief is that the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints is true, I garuntee you it will not be because we all follow a strict schedual in teaching. So, you know, I wouldn't get hung up on this, it's only a part of the Church that she enjoys and finds comforting. Do other Churchs have this aspect? Well obviously to some degree, they all do, if only at the level of having the same scriptures to work off of, or common goal to work towards. Do some have equal or even greater amounts of similarity in lessons taught? I don't know. I can say that Annie doesn't know of one (nor do I, for that matter). Anyways, just trying to keep people from getting ground down in an argument over something that's really not fundemental, or all that important.
Hobbes Posted by Dagonee (Member # 5818) on :
Justa, you were accusing people who spend a good deal of time and energy to go on missions of basically doing so for their own benefit and ignoring the harms caused to others.
You've basically stated missionaries are fooling themselves, and then taken offense at someone speculating at the reasons you might have for doing so.
Dagonee
Posted by Hobbes (Member # 433) on :
quote:Farmgirl, if the churches follow the Revised Common Lectionary (which is recommended, though not enforced, by most protestant denominations and is becoming more common in the last decade or so) not only could you go into any church of your own denomination, but any Catholic, Lutheran, Episcopalian, Presbyterian, UCC, United Methodist, Christian Church (disciples), or Community of Christ (formerly Reorganized Church of JC LDS) and hear the same readings.
Really? That's interesting, my experience with services in other Churchs is limited, but ... well I asn't aware of this. What exactly does it constitute? I mean, is everyone giving a lesson on following Christ on the same day? Or is it just a list of lessons that should be given in a year in no particular order? Something completely different?
Hobbes Posted by dkw (Member # 3264) on :
Hobbes, I’m sure Annie has many valid reasons for preferring her own church. But when I see misinformation about other churches, I try to correct it. That’s all this is, and I would expect the same if I made statements, even in passing, that implied something untrue about another denomination or religion.
Posted by Hobbes (Member # 433) on :
Hey, fair enough. I'm still curious about this "Lectionary" though, what exactly is it?
Hobbes Posted by Dagonee (Member # 5818) on :
I hadn't heard of the Revised Common Lectionary. Does this mean it follows the 3-year cycle of readings the Catholic Church uses, or did it make adjustments to help bring this together?
Dagonee
Posted by Jutsa Notha Name (Member # 4485) on :
If you want to believe that about what I mean, Dagonee, I cannot stop you. This is why I've grown more hesitant about posting lately anyway. No matter what is said, especially over issues like this, someone is always going to be taking everything that does not jibe with what they say as pejorative.
Posted by Dagonee (Member # 5818) on :
"Evangelizing really is just a nice way of calling something that is just telling others they are going to Hell."
Posted by Scott R (Member # 567) on :
In situations like this, it's best to do what I always do. Because I'm right. Even when my ideas are all crap, I'm more right than YOU.
And so, this is what should be done:
@ life's ironies, hypocrisies, and little infractions.
Posted by Jutsa Notha Name (Member # 4485) on :
Scott, that is a good way to look at it. Posted by Scott R (Member # 567) on :
You are continuing. To stop would require you to exert phenomenal presence of mind and keep from typing a response.
You cannot.
No one can.
Posted by Alucard... (Member # 4924) on :
*pokes head in*
Spray cheese anyone?
Posted by the master (Member # 6788) on :
quote:Heh. I'd like to know the reasoning for this odd paranoia.
Oh, a tangent that will actually be on topic!
My statement about daring to ride on elevators has to do with a phenomena we refer to as "gang save." This occurs when one finds themself in an isolated situation inwhich they is the only non-SB present. Should the rest of the group notice, they then proceed to attempt to frighten you into conversion and refuse to let you go until you've expressed what they would consider a desire to join them. This happened to me a couple of times in the dorm elevators, prompting me to start taking the stairs, even when carrying groceries or laundry. The elevators are, of course, not ideal, since the doors open every so often and a person can escape salvation. Empty parking lots and basement parties are the prefered locations.
Posted by dkw (Member # 3264) on :
The RCL is a three year cycle of readings, with an Old Testament Lesson, a Psalm, an Epistle lesson, and a Gospel lesson for each Sunday. (Except that during the Great 50 Days a lesson from Acts replaces the OT lesson.)
For example, this coming Sunday is the sixteenth Sunday after Pencost in year C, therefore churches that follow the RCL will be reading Jeremiah 8:18 - 9:1 or Amos 8:4-7, Psalm 79:1-9 or Psalm 113, 1 Timothy 2:1-7, and Luke 16:1-13
In addition to the continuity around the world, it’s nice because it means we can order bulletin covers that have pretty colored pictures that relate somehow to the lessons, pastors can form discussion groups with colleagues to collaborate on upcoming sermons, etc.
(Dag -- I'll try to find a link on the development of the RCL when I get back from the meeting that I am now running seriously late for.)
[ September 16, 2004, 02:28 PM: Message edited by: dkw ]
Posted by Annie (Member # 295) on :
I'm sorry to have implied anything so general. I was trying to illustrate a point about how someone could believe something entirely inflammatory about me and my religion (that Mormons are the army of the Anti-Christ) and still share it in a tame way.
I love it when people evangelize. I want to hear what people think is the one true way. After all, isn't that what every author who has ever written a book has ever done? Tolstoy wasn't being rude and assuming "Your beliefs about the war of 1812 are wrong and let me cram my version of the truth down your throat, you misguided heathen." He was sharing his interpretation of the truths and philosophies he lived by. We all evangelize whenever we converse with someone else. We tell them about the way we see things, and if we've discovered truths that make us happy, even down to the brand of dishwashing detergent that gets out those nasty stains, we share them in the hopes that they will help others.
If someone has discovered a teaching that they've interpreted to mean that I'm going to Hell and they can convey it according to the rules of civil discourse, more power to them. I appreciate the time and effort they put into the saving of my soul.
Posted by Dagonee (Member # 5818) on :
I know about the structure of the Catholic lectionary, and knew the present one dated from Vatican II. I just didn't know it was cross-denominational.
Learn something new every day.
Dagonee
Posted by Annie (Member # 295) on :
Thanks for the info on the RCL. That sounds really cool, and I'm very impressed that it seems to be so widespread.
Posted by Farmgirl (Member # 5567) on :
That is fascinating, dkw. I guess the ones I have attended never used the RCL -- and I went to a lot of Methodist churches before landing where I am now. This unity of structure was actually one of the things I liked best about the LDS church when I was considering them...
Thanks for teaching me something new today!
FG
Posted by jebus202 (Member # 2524) on :
quote:Same thing. Maybe a little nicer. I think the hierarchy in hell for some types of Christians probably goes (from lowest in hell to highest):
atheists unitarians muslims catholics mormons common criminals
Are catholics not considered as christians anymore?
Posted by miles_per_hour (Member # 6451) on :
There are many people that don't consider catholics or mormons real Christians -- you know, like them.
Posted by TMedina (Member # 6649) on :
Ask a Baptist that.
And step back.
-Trevor
Posted by Telperion the Silver (Member # 6074) on :
quote:Are catholics not considered as christians anymore
Hehehe... I've heard this before and it makes me giggles... considering the Roman Catholic Church is the original Christian church and mother to all the other breakaway sects...
Posted by katharina (Member # 827) on :
quote:the only non-SB
StrongBad? Saved/Born?
Posted by katharina (Member # 827) on :
Oh, duh. Never mind.
Posted by jebus202 (Member # 2524) on :
Yes that amuses me aswell, Telp.
Posted by PSI Teleport (Member # 5545) on :
quote: Hehehe... I've heard this before and it makes me giggles... considering the Roman Catholic Church is the original Christian church and mother to all the other breakaway sects...
While I don't really have an opinion about this specific argument one way or the other, I will say that just because someone starts something, that doesn't mean that they can't move away from the goal.
Posted by TMedina (Member # 6649) on :
That begs an interesting question - would LDS count as a splinter faction of the Roman Catholic Church?
-Trevor
Posted by katharina (Member # 827) on :
It depends on the criteria of whomever is doing the accounting.
By their own account, no, LDS are not Protestant.
[ September 16, 2004, 03:26 PM: Message edited by: katharina ]
Posted by Dan_raven (Member # 3383) on :
I think the best responce to someone when they yell, "YOu are going to HEll!!!" is to yell back, "And you are going to be reincarnated as a horny newt."
Posted by Da_Goat (Member # 5529) on :
quote: The phrase loses some of its oomph when it's neutered, doesn't it.
Well, I should hope a neutered phrase wouldn't try to oomph to begin with. But if he does, he gets what's coming to him.
[ September 16, 2004, 03:28 PM: Message edited by: Da_Goat ]
Posted by the master (Member # 6788) on :
LOL, I don't think I'd want to get into an elevator full of people dressed as StrongBad either. I mean, that's just common sense!
Posted by jebus202 (Member # 2524) on :
What is the definition of a Protestan religion and why do the LDS not consider themselves to be one, katharina?
[ September 16, 2004, 06:15 PM: Message edited by: jebus202 ]
Posted by katharina (Member # 827) on :
A Protestant religion is one (correct me if I'm wrong, dana) that was originally formed from another, as a "protest," most often the Catholic church.
LDS are not Protestant because the founder was not a member of another church and it did not break off from or was formed from another. The church was organized by a prophet under direction from God - there is no lineage to it, because the doctrine came from a prophet and is a restoration from heaven.
There are a couple of points:
1. The members did all come from other religions, and in the beginning most of these were Protestant. Right now, I think the majority of converts come from a Catholic background.
2. *muses* Does this mean the RLDS - Reorganized Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints, now Community of Christ - IS a Protestant religion?
[ September 16, 2004, 06:23 PM: Message edited by: katharina ]
Posted by dkw (Member # 3264) on :
Dagonee, that is an excellent link. All the more so because it recommends a book written by someone I know IRL.
Farmgirl, it’s possible one or more of the churches you attended followed the lectionary, but you didn’t realize it. I mean, how many people, unless they’re involved in planning worship, ever think about how the readings for each week are chosen? And it’s fairly rare that you’d go to more than one church on the same Sunday, so you wouldn’t necessarily know if you were using the same readings or not. (Or, of course, it's possible that none of them did. Not everyone does.)
Posted by Taalcon (Member # 839) on :
The whole idea of protestantism and reformism was the belief that what existed currently as the Catholic church was a corrupted and lef astray organization, and the movements were not intended to create new churches, rather to get closer to what they thought the original teachings were.
And I know that the LDS don't consider themselves reformist or protestant - if anything they call themselves 'Restorationists'
EDIT: Kat got there first. I guess the RLDS would be Restorationist Protestants?
--
And dkw, I think a great deal of the 'evangelical' protestant churches don't follow that lectionary. I know for the fact the Assemblies of God don't, and I'm pretty sure the Southern Baptist Convention doesn't either. I know they have 'official' Sunday School curriculums, but it's more of a 'suggested material' than a set in stone "this is what must be taught". The A/G in particular is quite relaxed. As long as the ministers and teachers are conveying their proper Doctrine, then it doesn't really care how they do it. My Dad, an A/G pastor, doesn't go from a 'suggested preaching text' book, he crafts his message from whatever topic or scripture he feels led to talk about that week.
[ September 16, 2004, 06:29 PM: Message edited by: Taalcon ]
Posted by Dagonee (Member # 5818) on :
So by definitions 1a and b, LDS would not be Protestants.
Dagonee
Posted by dkw (Member # 3264) on :
“Protestant” is used in different ways by different people. Sometimes it means any Christian church that is not Roman Catholic or Eastern Orthodox, in which case it could include the LDS.
Most often it refers to a group of denominations that share a similar theology, characterized by the Protestant reformation, in which case it does not include the LDS, and includes some Anglicans, but not all. (Weird church in this sense – some of them are theologically catholic, some protestant.)
Most technically, it refers to the churches which trace their heritage through the Protestant reformation, in which case it doesn’t include Anglicans, Episcopalians, or Methodists, since the English reformation was a whole different ball of wax.
Posted by dkw (Member # 3264) on :
And Taal, you're right, very few "evangelical" protestant churches follow the RCL.
Posted by katharina (Member # 827) on :
What's an evangelical Protestant? That's different from Pentacostal, right?
Posted by dkw (Member # 3264) on :
Very loose term for a group of mainly non-denominational churches that share some common theology and traits.
There is a technical use of the term to distiguish between "evangelical" and "liberal" theology, but since "liberal" in this case doesn't mean what everyone thinks it means, it's not particularly helpful.
Posted by jebus202 (Member # 2524) on :
Perhaps this isn't the right thread for this, but my knowledge of the LDS church is so limited and from what I've heard, they love to talk about it. So here is where I show my ignorance:
quote: LDS are not Protestant because the founder was not a member of another church and it did not break off from or was formed from another. The church was organized by a prophet under direction from God - there is no lineage to it, because the doctrine came from a prophet and is a restoration from heaven.
Who is the prophet?
Posted by Taalcon (Member # 839) on :
Baptists are Evangelical, but most aren't Pentcostal.
Pentecostal churches generally refer to specific branch that started at a revival in Hot Springs, Arkansas in about 1914 - specific denominations - like the Assemblies of God - started developing their history at that point. Pentecostal churches generally appear to have an outward focus on the gifts of the Holy Ghost, with an emphasis on speaking in tongues as the "primary initial evidence for the baptism in the Holy Ghost", a la at Pentecost.
EDIT: HA! No, not the Hoky Ghost...
[ September 16, 2004, 06:56 PM: Message edited by: Taalcon ]
Posted by Taalcon (Member # 839) on :
Jebus: This guy. Posted by dkw (Member # 3264) on :
Very unfortunate typo there.
Posted by beverly (Member # 6246) on :
I thought Pentacostal refered to a single denomination rather than a category of groups. I simply don't know.
Edit: I was deciding whether to laugh at it myself....
[ September 16, 2004, 06:53 PM: Message edited by: beverly ]
Posted by dkw (Member # 3264) on :
Bev, it's both. In the same way "Methodist" is actually a whole family of denominations and theology, but a lot of people use it to refer to the specific denomination that is actually "United Methodist."
Posted by beverly (Member # 6246) on :
I didn't know that either! Hmmmm, learn something new everyday.
Is this similar to how there are different kinds of Baptists? Or totally different?
Posted by dkw (Member # 3264) on :
Okay, fetched a reference book so I wouldn’t leave anybody out. Denominations that are Pentecostal (by heritage):
General Council of Assemblies of God Assemblies of the Lord Jesus Christ Bible Way Church of our Lord Jesus Christ, World Wide, Inc. Christian Catholic Church Christian Church of North America, General Council Church of God (Cleveland, Tennessee) Church of God in Christ Church of God of Prophecy Church of Our Lord Jesus Christ of the Apostolic Faith, Inc. Church of the Living God, Christian Workers for Fellowship Church of the Living God, The Pillar and Ground of the Truth, Inc. Congregational Holiness Church Elim Fellowship Full Gospel Fellowship of Churches and Ministers, International Independent Assemblies of God, International International Church of the Foursquare Gospel International Pentecostal Church of Christ Open Bible Standard Churches, Inc. Pentecostal Assemblies of the World, Inc. Pentecostal Church of God Pentecostal Free Will Baptist Church, Inc. United Holy Church of America, Inc. United Pentecostal Church International Vineyard Churches International
There are also, of course, non-denominational Pentecostal churches, as well as Pentecostal movements within many of the major denominations.
Posted by dkw (Member # 3264) on :
Baptists are slightly different, in that they have a completely congregationally based government, so they aren't really a "denomination" at all. Congregations can associate themselves with diffent conventions, but the convention has no authority over the congregations.
Posted by dkw (Member # 3264) on :
“Methodist” can refer to any of the denominations that trace their heritage back to John and Charles Wesley (which would include the Holiness churches and the Salvation Army), or to the churches that are part of the pan-Methodist family today – African Methodist Episcopal, AME Zion, Free Methodist Church, etc. But when used to refer to a denomination, usually it means The United Methodist Church -- formed in 1968 by the merger of The Methodist Church (itself formed by the merger of The Methodist Episcopal Church, The Methodist Episcopal Church South, and the Methodist Protestant Church) and the Evangelical United Brethren.
Which, incidentally, is why some of us are so fussy about the name United Methodist – with out it you leave out the EUB folks, who get touchy about the fact that 1968 was a merger, not a take-over. They don’t like to feel like their church was swallowed up.
Posted by Taalcon (Member # 839) on :
BTW, back on the topic of 'agressive proselytising', here's the scriptural declaration concerning it:
2 Timothy 2:24-25
quote:24 And the servant of the Lord must not strive; but be gentle unto all men, apt to teach, patient,
25 In meekness instructing those that oppose themselves; if God peradventure will give them repentance to the acknowledging of the truth;
To sum up: We are instructed to be patient, gentle and meek when 'instructing'. Anything else (such as the "you are evil and going straight to hell you whore" tactics) are not scripturally sound. This is what the Universally Recognised Christian Scriptures say about this topic. Those who do otherwise aren't following the council they're trying to tell you to follow. So in short, don't judge all of Christians by the vocal minority who choses to ignore the scriptures.
LDS have additional scriptures which state: 3 Nephi 11:29
quote: For verily, verily I say unto you, he that hath the spirit of contention is not of me, but is of the devil, who is the father of contention, and he stirreth up the hearts of men to contend with anger, one with another.
and
Doctrine & Covenants 136:23
quote:23 Cease to contend one with another; cease to speak evil one of another.
Telling someone about the Gospel is good. Yelling at them or telling them they're evil for not listening to them is bad.
[ September 16, 2004, 09:52 PM: Message edited by: Taalcon ]
Posted by Dan_raven (Member # 3383) on :
Taal, thanks for the quote.
DKW,
quote:Baptists are slightly different,..
made me giggle. Sorry to take it out of context.
To all my Baptist friends, I apologize. You all aren't slightly different.
Posted by beverly (Member # 6246) on :
Dana, huh! That's interesting. Now I know the significance of the "United" part.
So, is the Salvation Army a denomination? I thought it was a charity. But then, I am pretty clueless about this. Posted by Taalcon (Member # 839) on :
They're a denomination well known for their charity work Posted by Taalcon (Member # 839) on :
*bumpy* I liked this discussion. Informative without being vitriolic Posted by aspectre (Member # 2222) on :
![[Smile]](smile.gif)
![[Evil]](graemlins/evil.gif)
![[Wink]](wink.gif)
![[Laugh]](graemlins/laugh.gif)
Of course he then attempted to explain very loudly why the Mormon Church is a false and dangerous cult, but really, his intial reaction is the priceless part. ![[Cool]](cool.gif)
![[ROFL]](graemlins/rofl.gif)
![[Razz]](tongue.gif)
![[Evil Laugh]](graemlins/evillaugh.gif)
![[Big Grin]](biggrin.gif)
![[Dont Know]](graemlins/dontknow.gif)
Anyways, just trying to keep people from getting ground down in an argument over something that's really not fundemental, or all that important. ![[Confused]](confused.gif)