posted
.... Well thats what I got told the other day by a very nice man in Cathedral square. Me and a few of my friends were just walking through minding our own business when a guy came up to us and asked us if we could please help him, we had to complete a survey and then he would tell us the perfect definition of a Christian. Well none of us are Christians but since he asked us nicely we did this for him. And then very nicely he told us that we were all liers, cheaters, stealers and whores..... Well not told but very nicely implied....And we were going to hell, he actually told us that one. lol he was a very nice man. But it just ruined my day and had me raging for the next couple of hours about it. I absolutly HATE anybody trying to convert me into ANYTHING! Whether it's believing in God or not believing in him. The more they try to push me the more I try to resist. It's annoying how someone so nice can be, well, so not nice. I definitly don't appreciate being told to go to hell while I am out walking in town(even if it may be true:P). Anyway well thats my rant. I wonder what he would of said if we had told him we were Buddhist or Muslim? Posts: 315 | Registered: Jun 2002
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posted
Well, to be honest, anyone who doesn't accept the Source from Under Water is going to hell...
But that's my personal belief, and I would never force it on anyone; what that man did was weird, wacko, and crazy.
Posts: 3060 | Registered: Nov 2003
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quote: I absolutly HATE anybody trying to convert me into ANYTHING! Whether it's believing in God or not believing in him. The more they try to push me the more I try to resist.
Which is why, in my opinion, once a person displays without a doubt that they're not interested in the message you're talking about, you thank them for their time and either leave, or change the subject.
Don't hate people for sharing a message that, in many cases, they view as one of love (even when idiots have a pretty poor idea of how to convey that message - this guy is an embarassment, plain and simple).
But once you've said no you're not interested and they keep going on, they've overstepped their bounds.
It's just sad to think there's a lot of really great people out there who have a belief different than yours who are looking out for, in their minds, your eternal wellbeing, and are hated for it.
Just keep in mind that not all those who want to convert you think you're an evil, hell-bound whore. It's just the very vocal minority who like to do this. Like this guy.
Posts: 2689 | Registered: Apr 2000
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haha, can I hate both? No Christians won't go to hell because they have TURNED and SURRENDED to God! And thats what I have to do if I don't wanna go to hell.
Posts: 315 | Registered: Jun 2002
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I've been told that i'm going to hell many times, and I always reply, "You go to heavan for the weather, but hell for the company."
Posts: 1094 | Registered: Mar 2004
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Ohh, I have a story that fits here! There's a non-denominational, evangelical preacher that cocmes to Purdue's campus a few times a semester, I've talked to him once...
Anyways, one day he was out there, unbeknownst to a couple of Mormon missionaries, who were walking through campus (keep in mind, Mormon missionaries are 19-21 year old guys typically, normally great, fun and enthusiastic, and for people their age I would say that they tend to know a good amount about the gospel, if only because as a missionary you spend a lot of time studing it, but they could never compete with a true-blue evangelical preacher like this guy). So he's standing out there preaching when they walk by, and all of a sudden he see them through the crows and cries out "Ahh, look, MORMONS!". Of course he then attempted to explain very loudly why the Mormon Church is a false and dangerous cult, but really, his intial reaction is the priceless part.
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Hobbes, I walked past him the other day as he was explaining ernestly that just as he has faith in the makers of Pepsi that his Pepsi will be good, we should all have faith in God. Posts: 4655 | Registered: Jan 2002
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Stacey, are you claiming you're NOT a liar, cheater, stealer and whore? I'm gonna need to see proof, I'm afraid. Posts: 1431 | Registered: Aug 2003
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posted
I have a related story. I was walking near a church (it was a couple of blocks away), and this black guy offered me some crack. I just hate it when people offer me crack.
Posts: 338 | Registered: Jan 2001
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My dad, before I came along, used to guide tours... in Turkey, in England, but mainly in Israel, or more specifically, Jerusalem.
Well, there's this "disease" called The Jerusalem Syndrome, in which people are convinced that the Messiah is everywhere, and will come back one day to save everyone. Either that, or they think they themselves are the savior of the people.
Anyway, my dad was guiding a tour in Jerusalem outside some church or another (at the moment, I don't remember which one), and there was an afflicted person standing outside, addressing a large group of people (as so accurately depicted in Monty Python's Life of Brian):
"The Messiah is around us! The Messiah is here! The Messiah could be in this group right now!" My dad's tour group wanted to stand and watch this man, to see what would happen or what he would do, so the entire group stood and stared at him. This seemed to give the man encouragement, so he came right up into the middle of my dad's group, and started screaming again, "The Messiah is right here, right now!"
Suddenly, he stopped shouting, and stared at my dad, looked at him from head to toe... and said "but it can't be you, you're too short!"
I love this story. My little sister and I are forever asking my dad to tell it to us again!
Posts: 7877 | Registered: Feb 2003
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At UNL we used to have people come with signs and huge crosses. And the main guy would yell at you while you walked by saying you're a slut b/c of the way you're dressed. Or that we were all going to hell because we were at the university. THe saddest thing was that he had kids who handed out pamphlets. I thought they should have been in school. But with the stuff he was shouting I figured there wasn't much chance he'd be teaching them much more than the basics of the 3 Rs.
Posts: 872 | Registered: Mar 2002
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my second semester at purdue, there was a prolife group that had little kids handing out pictures of aborted fetuses. i wondered how that could be more important than school.
and on topic, i almost got used to being told i was going to hell after 4 years in alabama. i didn't even have to fill out a survey or anything. i just had to say "no thank you" to prayer meetings and bible studies. oh, and dare to ride elevators.
Posts: 157 | Registered: Aug 2004
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wow I feel so sorry for the kids handing out paphlets with their dad and the little kids handing out stuff too. I mean its one thing to do something like that once your done with highschool, and choise to do it. At that age it dosent sound like they even had a choice in the matter!
Posts: 264 | Registered: Apr 2004
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In 10th grade three friends and I would sit together at lunch. One of them was an EXTREMELY religious Baptist. (She told two of my friends who are Methodist that they are going to hell because they aren't Baptist.) So one day the other two people decided to leave, and I was left alone with the extremely religious friend. She decided it was the perfect opportunity to ask me why I wasn't a Christian. Let me tell you, THAT was a fun conversation. I felt like I was defending the whole scientific community. The argument basically ended with me saying that I didn't want to argue about it.
The only time I remember anything like that happening with a stranger was when I was walking back from an assembly in high school and I had a pin on my backpack that said "Thank God I'm An Atheist". The person behind me asked what atheist meant, and when her friend explained it to her, she told me, "Oh, I'm sorry".
Posts: 1658 | Registered: Sep 2003
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I just figured out what I dislike so much about this style of conversion, and this includes things like the "Chick" tracts.
By posing as a simple surveyer, then breaking into Evangelical spiel they are not truthful. They are trying to trick you into converting. Using lies and innuendo and fear, they try to fool you into being a Christian.
That is not the Christian way.
In fact, lies, fear, and basic trickery is the hallmark of the devil and Hell.
Hmmm, sounds like the guy in the square may be closer to the dark realm than he realizes.
Posts: 11895 | Registered: Apr 2002
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We had some hard-core Christians come to talk to the whole university yesterday; they hung out in Free Speech Alley for most of the day condemning footbal. Could've told them that was the wrong approach. I talked them for a really long time; I recorded some of it.
Charlie the Christian's cop-out answer on Paul's authority, the Old Testament, and homosexuality:
quote: Jenny: Well, also...Paul says something about usurers, people who charge interest on loans. So do you have anything against people who charge interest on loans? Charlie: Uh—I don’t charge interest on loans. I really haven’t looked into that, you know. I mean, what I know, though, is that if somebody really wants to follow Jesus, and they submit to him, then God will lead them into all truth, and help them to work through these difficult things. Jenny: Like homosexuality? Charlie: I do know this. The Bible says all Scripture is given by inspiration of God. It’s all profitable. There’s something that the Old Testament can teach us.
But my personal favorite line was this:
quote: Charlie: Shiva’s a demon.
(He also called me a demon, because I was wearing a necklace with Shiva on it, but I didn't get a recording of that.) I was being very polite to them, so I didn't get them to say any of the really entertaining things to me. I did take a picture of the sandwich board one of them was wearing, with a sin list on it. Potty-mouths and Mormons were prominent.
The best part was when people made them mad. They'd just quit talking then; they'd shake their heads in despair and mutter, "You lying viper. You filthy hypocrite."
posted
My aunt is a Benedictine Sister (a nun) and is fond of telling me this account of a sister who viewed Hell in its actuality for a brief moment. She felt compelled to urge all sinners to repent to avoid the terrors that await those who suffer eternal fire.
Now maybe I am the doubting Thomas, but some of the fun pranking and goofing off I did as an adolescent were most definitely able to be labeled as sinful. So if all those ornery things I did are going to make me go to a place with similar individuals, I have to question the very makeup of hell. And while I am laminating my first-class ticket to hell, I have to question the very makeup of heaven.
Contrary to popular belief, I do not want to hang out in flowing robes and play the harp while floating around on a cloud.
So I guess I am questioning the entire reward/punishment system of Christianity and I am hoping faithfully that this is one of those mysteries that is much more complex than we are told through doctrine.
In other words, enlightenment.
So I am frustrated when I am told EXACTLY what I should believe and should pray upon, but when I ask for details, I am given no answers by these very same people, and that I have to wait to find out about all these sacred mysteries...
Ah heck, just have the mother ship beam me up. I tire of this planet.
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There was a Jesus Parade last saturday around here and a friend and I were cornered by a very nice man who gave out a little pamphlet. My friend was terrified and took the pamphet then walked away whispering to me about how she hated being converted and could we walk quicker please.
The presentation of the pamphlet was nice but the information in the pamphlet was pretty condemning. It was like: "Welcome to Christ! YOU'RE GOING TO HELL!" Not particularly, in my opinion, friendly.
We recycled them .
Posts: 8473 | Registered: Apr 2003
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quote: So I guess I am questioning the entire reward/punishment system of Christianity and I am hoping faithfully that this is one of those mysteries that is much more complex than we are told through doctrine.
Has a lot to do with whose doctrine you're listening to, or not listening to Posts: 2689 | Registered: Apr 2000
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Hobbes, I've had an experience like that, except we were Jehovah's Witnesses (a friend and I) walking by while he called us Mormons and explained why we shouldn't be one (and, of course, he didn't use any reasons that were valid at all - just stuff about polygamy and all that wish-wash). He had some freaky dogs, though, and we were on our way to lunch, so we didn't stop to correct him. We wouldn't have known where to start, anyawy.
Anyway, yeah, people are stupid.
quote:The more they try to push me the more I try to resist.
Right on! Fight the power! Dang the man!
Posts: 2292 | Registered: Aug 2003
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Just as a friendly suggestion to everyone, you can avoid a lot of these problems by biking at 15mph or above everywhere, whose going to talk to you then?
Heh. I'd like to know the reasoning for this odd paranoia.
I don't have much problem with people saying what they will about religion; I like to hear the hairbrained ideas provided that they're phrased unoffensively. I had a friend my freshman year with whom I'd often eat lunch. He was a brilliant kid, a physics student I believe, and a diehard "non denominational" Christian. Once he found out I was Mormon, we had all kinds of interesting conversations. He asked me why I thought the LDS church could be true, and I told him that I was really comforted by the fact that a worldwide religion could be so cohesive. For me, the fact that on any given Sunday, in any given LDS church anywhere in the world you'll have the same Sunday School lesson teaching the same doctrine was a good sign of credibility for me.
He responded that he had always believed the teaching that the Mormons were the army of the Anti-Christ and that they were well-organized because Satan was firmly in control.
I had a jovial enough relationship with this kid that I wasn't offended in the least and I was actually impressed by his efforts to show me the error of my ways.
I don't understand, however, the righteous wrath that leads people to vocally condemn passersby. Perhaps they think scaring others to repentance is an act of love, but I don't understand how they reconcile this with Christ's attitude of benevolence to publicans and sinners.
Posts: 8504 | Registered: Aug 1999
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Because they fear that you may be right. Even entertaining the possibility that you may in some way be right, means there is a possibility that in some way that would make them wrong.
They are perfect and can't be wrong.
Its all about the ego my friend. Its all about the ego.
Posts: 11895 | Registered: Apr 2002
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quote:For me, the fact that on any given Sunday, in any given LDS church anywhere in the world you'll have the same Sunday School lesson teaching the same doctrine was a good sign of credibility for me.
Weren't you one of a small group of others on this forum who have pointed out that Mormons in different regions are in fact different? I remember someone talking about some doctrinal silliness with someone they knew in Utah, and a few individuals here saying that they are Mormon and that this is not what they grew up learning. I do wish I had the details of the incident to further support my impression, but I am almost sure that your statement seems more like a matter of selective memory of cohesion than any actual superior cohesion.
I'm not a Mormon though, so take my words with a grain of salt. I just don't trust claims like that made by any religious group, because there are way too many variables that are being ignored in such a statement.
Posts: 1170 | Registered: Jan 2003
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I think that everyone has their ego and their self-worth tied up in something. For some people it's their car, for some people it's their social position in their family or otherwise, for some people it's their art they produce, for some people it's their salary, for some people it's their belief system, for some its their sense of humor. It's not even bad - I think it's just the way human beings are. You have to identify yourself with something.
The rotten reactions that you see are not the result of what they love, but simply a human reaction to protect that...self-image they have developed. What it actually is becomes a McGuffin - it doesn't matter. Even that itself isn't necessarily bad - I truly believe that everyone does it. If someone does NOT identify with something, have nothing that they feel defines them in part, then it's a breath closer to sociopsychopath.
Anyway, in answer to how can someone react in defense of someone or something in a way that seems to completely contradicts what that someone or something says, it's because that's how they react in defense of their McGuffin. That's just human.
Posts: 26077 | Registered: Mar 2000
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quote:Weren't you one of a small group of others on this forum who have pointed out that Mormons in different regions are in fact different?
The culture is different, so the false doctrine and folklore that creeps in will be different. The Church service and curriculum is nearly identical. Considering the number of languages and the differences in custom, it's pretty amazing.
When I was in Prague, I went to church there. Didn't speak of any of the language, of course, and I didn't get the content of the lesson, but it was still church. Pretty cool.
posted
I've been told by many christians that I go to church with or work with in the community that I am going to hell. All because I have a sense of humor about religion. Just cause I can laugh at jokes made about christians doesn't make me any less of one. It just means I am not easily offended.
That being said, I once got kicked out of a Sunday school class for making a "sacreligious" video about Jesus and cheese. Hmmm, since food is involved would it be Sacrelicious? have to ask Bob about that one.
quote:The culture is different, so the false doctrine and folklore that creeps in will be different. The Church service and curriculum is nearly identical. Considering the number of languages and the differences in custom, it's pretty amazing.
When I was in Prague, I went to church there. Didn't speak of any of the language, of course, and I didn't get the content of the lesson, but it was still church. Pretty cool.
This is different from the different denominational conventions how, exactly? No matter what Catholic church I go to, the familiarity of ceremony is still there. I would be hard pressed to find a Methodist church that was in some way noticably different than other Methodist churches. I can't speak for every denomination, not being a member, but I can say that the common thread exists throughout any church. Not just Christian ones, by the way.
This goes back to my original question, which is how can this claim of a supposed higher credibility be taken seriously when it is common enough in more than just one religion? I'm not addressing just Mormons on this, but this forum having a higher Mormon population than anywhere else I've seen, that single statement jumped out at me as an example of something that always came across as a spurious claim.
Posts: 1170 | Registered: Jan 2003
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Justa, I have talked of such regional quirks often, but they have always been cultural matters. It may sound like I'm rationalizing, but honestly, Mormon culture (since it grew up in such an isolated place for so long) is quite differentiable from Mormon doctrine when you're familiar with both. I've never lived in Utah, and I find a lot of their social customs strange, but I've attended church services in Utah on occasion and found them nearly identical to other LDS services I've attended across the United States and in Europe.
Posts: 8504 | Registered: Aug 1999
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quote:I would be hard pressed to find a Methodist church that was in some way noticably different than other Methodist churches. I can't speak for every denomination, not being a member, but I can say that the common thread exists throughout any church. Not just Christian ones, by the way.
And it's not just a common thread. The Sunday School classes are being taught out of the exact same manuals. Unlike denominations that are more democratic about their doctrine, LDS churches teach the same doctrines worldwide.
Posts: 8504 | Registered: Aug 1999
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I'd really rather not derail this thread, though. I think we had good conversation going on about in-your-face proselyting.
Posts: 8504 | Registered: Aug 1999
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Annie, almost all mainline protestant denominations and Roman Catholics have denominational publishing houses that produce their curriculum. That isn't unique to LDS.
Posts: 9866 | Registered: Apr 2002
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Catholic masses worldwide have the same readings and they contain the same Eucharistic prayer, the same elements. Such conformity is not enough to generate credibility, since conflicting belief systems can claim it.
I do think it's a good thing. It's just not proof of anything.
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I love it, but I agree that it isn't the definitive reason. It's reassuring, though, I think partly because of this:
quote:D&C 109: 8 8 Organize yourselves; prepare every needful thing, and establish a house, even a house of prayer, a house of fasting, a house of faith, a house of learning, a house of glory, a house of order, a house of God;
D&C 132: 8 8 Behold, mine house is a house of order, saith the Lord God, and not a house of confusion.
I am not derailing the thread with this. I am saying that this sort of thing is exactly the kind of stuff that actually pushes people away while the person stating the things is assuming they are saying a good thing. Even here on this forum, I have been chastized for how I am perceived as saying things, even when I mean or am implying nothing of the sort. While the person making the claim may think they are sharing a message of love and caring, all the receiver of the message is hearing is "you are not good enough and you are going to Hell." I remember reading somewhere an essay on how evangelizing is actually more effective as an exercise to strengthen faith in the person doing the evangelizing than it is as a conversion tool, and I tend to agree with it.
Posts: 1170 | Registered: Jan 2003
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Justa, I think I see your point. It’s not as obvious as the “you’re going to hell” push, but it could lower a person’s credibility if they claim something as unique to their religion that is actually common.
Annie, I know of no denominations that don’t teach the same doctrines worldwide. It’s a matter of definition -- if they aren’t something that’s agreed on throughout the denomination, then they aren’t doctrines.
Posts: 9866 | Registered: Apr 2002
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quote:I agree that it strengthens the person saying it, but missionary work also works.
And it also annoys the hell out of people. But it also sometimes creates friends where conversion doesn't come into play. It also give someone a chance to travel. It can also expose someone to aspects of cultures they never understood or knew before.
In the end, evangelizing always has more pros for the person evangelizing than the people being evangelized to, which is what I agree with. Evangelizing really is just a nice way of calling something that is just telling others they are going to Hell.
[ September 16, 2004, 01:41 PM: Message edited by: Jutsa Notha Name ]
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