Here is the Golden Rule corallar for child raising:
Never use a method to win an argument with your child that you don't want the child to use on you.
They learn.
Its obvious that if you beat your child to win the argument, when they grow up they will use the same strategy on you. Not a way I want to spend my retirement.
Similary, and despite its portrayal on TV, guilt can be a devastating and damaging tool to force people to do what they want. If you use motherly guilt to force your child to do thier homework, then expect them to use family guilt to force you into an inexpensive retirement home.
"Ah, we'd like to upgrade you to a place where they don't resell your medication mom, but then how could we afford to pay for Jr's orthodontry. We could sacrifice his entire future to make you a bit more comfortable I suppose."
My problem is logic. I used calm rational thinking, in a logical format, to present calm rational reasons why my son should go to bed.
He's learned.
Now he responds with calm rational questions, in a deliberately slow and thoughtful voice.
My son has mastered Roberts Rules of Order.
He is open to organized debate because while he is debating he isn't sleeping.
Yes, my son is filibustering his bed time.
Like Frist, I may have to change the rules of the house..er..senate..er you know what I mean.
No violence, no guilt, no talking rationally. Gee, all that's left is leading by example. #@$@#, now I have to be good and clean and all that stupid stuff.
Posted by Eaquae Legit (Member # 3063) on :
I love that kid.
Posted by Scott R (Member # 567) on :
Having the same problem with Super-K. I'd forgotten that 'Why?' can be asked to any statement.
I've found that Authoritarianism is the best form of family government.
Posted by romanylass (Member # 6306) on :
Sasha is so smart to learn that at 5!
Matthew is a consumate debator, so much that we have joked that he should consider law or politics. Unfortunately, I hate to lose an argument so sometimes the fact that it's my child argueing with me becomes secondary to winning through logic. (telling him to go to his room would be cheating).
Posted by Elizabeth (Member # 5218) on :
It is even worse when you teach them to be polite, and to "use their words." Who came up with that crap?
My daughter, at 3:
"Mommy, I do not care for this pizza."
Me:" But you love pizza. This is just a little different kind."
"Mommy, I love you, and I think you are the bestest cook, I just don't like this kind of pizza."
Polite. Using her words. Expressing her feelings. Not throwing food.
Yet, somehow, so much worse...
Posted by imogen (Member # 5485) on :
Dan, every time I read a Sasha at home with you and your wife story I get a little warm tingle.
I am so happy your family worked out. And that we get the stories. Posted by Raia (Member # 4700) on :
Dan... whenever you need a babysitter, just let me know, ok?
Posted by bunbun (Member # 6814) on :
One of my major concerns with the thought of having children is that they will likely have my husband's debating skills, also, that they will probably be smarter than us.
Therefore, our primary objective should be teach them mercy for the weak and infirm.
Posted by Dan_raven (Member # 3383) on :
There are times I think I ended up with one of Bean's lost kids. I know they have them all accounted for, but I'm still not too sure.
Posted by Bob_Scopatz (Member # 1227) on :
quote:One of my major concerns with the thought of having children is that they will likely have my husband's debating skills, also, that they will probably be smarter than us.
quote:Now he responds with calm rational questions, in a deliberately slow and thoughtful voice.
You people are giving me GREAT hope for humanity.
Thank you!
Posted by starlooker (Member # 7495) on :
I am laughing so, so, so very hard right now. I cannot even tell you.
Posted by ssywak (Member # 807) on :
When my son was 5 or so, I sent him upstairs to his room for cursing. As he stormed up the stairs, he said (ostensibly to himself, but obviously loud enough for us to hear), "So how come you two are allowed to curse, but I'm not? Oh, I get it--because you're grown ups!"
Trust me, the only way to avoid this is to never teach them to speak, or think.
Posted by Goody Scrivener (Member # 6742) on :
quote:Originally posted by Dan_raven: There are times I think I ended up with one of Bean's lost kids. I know they have them all accounted for, but I'm still not too sure.
Hmmm, that wasn't the impression I got when i read the book... I thought there was one more child out there?
Posted by Phanto (Member # 5897) on :
Elizabeth...your story is absolutely amazing! Posted by Elizabeth (Member # 5218) on :
Phanto, She is eleven now. It is more frightening than anything else. Somehow, it is easier when girls have an "attitude" that you can call them out for.
"Don't give me that look!" "I don't like your tone, Missy."
When they are polite, and throw therapy-speak right back at you, what else do you have to turn to?
Posted by Dan_raven (Member # 3383) on :
I'm surprised that no one has mentioned the Democrats are using a 5 year olds tactic--the filibuster. I was ready to counter that most politics is at a five year old level.
From Plausible Deniability being just another name for that invisible friend they try to blame for everything to CYA being the same as "Not Me".
How many political theories out there boil down to the three year olds chant, "Mine, mine, mine" or how many political strategies can be explained as "If you don't let us win I'm taking my ball and going home."
Posted by Phanto (Member # 5897) on :
The problem with logic is that so many things are illogical. I know what you mean, though. I delight in the texture of varied language. It is so amusing to use the language of lawsuits against random, annoying people:
"You're hurting my feelings. You're making me feel bad. That is just not nice."
And, as a plus side, I can say "that hurts my feelings" without sounding like a teacher trying to teach kids the 'right' thing to do. I shound like, instead, a 40 year old disenfranchised [INSERT CHARACTERISTIC HERE] threatening a lawsuit.
Posted by Annie (Member # 295) on :
"Never reason with a child."
Jean-Jacques Rousseau
Posted by ReikoDemosthenes (Member # 6218) on :
*giggles madly* this thread amuses me to no end
Posted by ketchupqueen (Member # 6877) on :
quote:"Never reason with a child."
Jean-Jacques Rousseau
Well, maybe not never, but sometimes it's good advice.
"I don't have to get up early tomorrow. Why do I need to go to bed?" "Because you are tired and get grumpy when you don't sleep right." This exchange would most likely be followed by another "rational argument".
"I don't have to get up early tomorrow. Why do I need to go to bed?" "Because in this house, the rule is that you need to obey me when I tell you to do something. Go to bed." This could be argued with, but you have now brought in The House Rules, and therefore have the right of punishment if not obeyed rather quickly.
Posted by ssywak (Member # 807) on :
You can always threaten them with grapefruit spoons and electric-shock dog collars.
Not at the same time, of course. That would be wrong.
Posted by Dan_raven (Member # 3383) on :
I can't even threaten him with Broccoli or No Icecream. He doesn't like Ice Cream and loves Broccoli.
Posted by Dagonee (Member # 5818) on :
Have you tried threatening him with icecream and no broccoli?
Posted by Elizabeth (Member # 5218) on :
Or saying, fine, you can have broccoli...in your ice cream.
Posted by Dagonee (Member # 5818) on :
Broccoli ice cream? Have you been watching Iron Chef again?
Posted by Elizabeth (Member # 5218) on :
No, just shows on different forms of torture, Dag.
Posted by Dagonee (Member # 5818) on :
Ah, Lifetime Channel, eh?
Posted by Elizabeth (Member # 5218) on :
Nope. Fox News.
Posted by Dagonee (Member # 5818) on :
Ah, yes. Good thing they keep us up to date on what the liberals are doing to us. Posted by beverly (Member # 6246) on :
Eh, our oldest tries to renegotiate bedtime every once in awhile. He is clever, logical, and persuasive. Sometimes we just have to pull out the, "Because I am your Mother/Father and I told you so."
So far that usually settles it--even if he doesn't like it. But I know when he gets older things will be different.
The thing is, children often think they are the equals of their parents, our oldest in particular. I remind him often that I've lived longer than he does and I know more than he does, giving specific examples. He respects that--especially since he knows that I do listen to what he says respectfully and take it into account.
Posted by fugu13 (Member # 2859) on :
Ah yes, all those liberals in power in our government, they're the ones doing things to us Posted by Dan_raven (Member # 3383) on :
I am sorry but if I dared threatened to, or actually was forced to withhold broccolli from my child who sought to eat the nutritious food, 10,000 generations of past mothers would come back to dope slap me upside my head.
Posted by Hobbes (Member # 433) on :
I'd buy tickets to that.
No offense Dan.
Hobbes Posted by ketchupqueen (Member # 6877) on :
I don't think food should be used as a punishment. A favorite meal or snack as an incentive where one would usually be having a meal or snack, sure. But taking away food just leaves the child hungry, taking away dessert means they expect dessert when they behave (we don't have dessert every day in our house, just sometimes), and forcing them to eat something they really don't like promotes an unhealthy attitude toward food, especially that food.
Also, I loved broccoli in vanilla ice cream as a child.
Posted by romanylass (Member # 6306) on :
Yeah, but Dan, you could retire on the profits. And the National Enquirer story.
"Man refuses to feed broccoli to child".
Posted by Elizabeth (Member # 5218) on :
Ketchpqueen, we were joking.
Posted by Olivetta (Member # 6456) on :
After many, many years of trying, I have finally succeeded in getting through to Liam that when I tell him not to do something, I have a good reason.
Frex, running or not holding my hand in parking lots, and so forth. I'd tell him not to do something, and occassionally he'd get hurt before I could stop him (nothing major). I'd comfort him and tell him that I've been around a lot longer than he has, and I know how things work a bit more than he does, so sometimes I can see how he might get hurt doing something. He may not see the danger, but he should trust me.
Now he does obey me first, and asks his questions later. This is generally good.
I forget where we were, but the other day he was walking with us, but flinging his arms around next to a railing on the walk way. Another long-standing instruction is to stay out of the way of other grown ups - this is both a sfety and a politeness thing.
He stopped and used the railing to lif himself off the ground, and began swinging his legs. I said, "Liam, stop that."
He did.
Then he said, "Because I could get hurt?"
I explained that that was part of it, but mostly it was that he nearly kicked several people around him in the three seconds he was doing it, and I didn't want other people to be hurt either.
He blinked those HUGE slate blue eyes at me, processing the information. "Oh."
I think he was a little shocked at the idea that I thought about the safety of other people, too. *wry smile* Can't blame HIM for that -- the major focus of my life for at least five years has been keeping Danger Boy out of harm's way, and he knows it.
Posted by ketchupqueen (Member # 6877) on :
Elizabeth, I knew that. I was making a larger point; my almost-step-mother has major food issues because she was forced to eat everything put in front of her. Always.
Posted by romanylass (Member # 6306) on :
I was too. But only certain foods or preperations bother me. Like brussel sprouts...I will never, ever eat one because I remember having to eat frozen brussel sprouts that had been boiled and garnished with cider vinegar. Actually, every vegetable I ate as achild was presented that was ( sometimes, we had canned veggies for variety).
Posted by Dan_raven (Member # 3383) on :
It could be worse. I heard a major New York food critic explaining her life long love of cooking began as self defence. Her mother routinely poisoned them with her lack of food skills (and hygene).
Posted by Sartorius (Member # 7696) on :
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