This is topic Unintentional Racism and SOME white people, but not all. and how to fix it in forum Books, Films, Food and Culture at Hatrack River Forum.
I don't want to clutter the Rosie O'Donnell topic. Right now I'm reading a book called Yellow about racism against Asians in America. The author talks about the remarks he's heard from white people like, "Where do you come from?" and "You speak such good English." He was born in America. Some whites will also say the same thing about black people. "You're so articulate." They may not realise that what they are saying is offensive, but it is. Perhaps people are a bit oversensitive, it can't be helped. If this sort of thing has been directed at me, I don't notice. White people have the luxury of not having to think about their whiteness. No one will doubt their intelligence because of the colour of their skin, usually that has more to do with poverty than anything else. They don't know what it's like to be Native American and to have aspects of your culture constantly poked fun of and cannot understand why some Native Americans are offended by names like the Chiefs or the Braves or that whole waving of the tomahawk thing. Many white people do not bother to try to understand other people's cultures, but blacks, Asian Americans, Latinos, Native Americans and other non-whites cannot afford this, they have to learn to navagate through the primarily white world. Me, I'm tired of the concept of race. I can't understand why we need it, or why people insist on judging people based on something as arbitrary or illigical as skin colour and facial features. I don't understand why people stereotype based on these things. But this sort of thing matters to many people. Things have changed though. I saw an old movie where the word "pikaninny" was used, and I mentioned the "yellowface" in Breakfast at Tiffanies. Plus there were westerns with whooping "injuns" to consider. Things have gotten better over the years. Like it or not, we have to live with all sorts of people from all sorts of backgrounds. People need to respect each other. Recently my favourite band came here from Japan to play at the Family Values Tour with Korn. According to some people who went to other shows, people were shouting, "Go back to your own country!" and things like that. Why? It doesn't make sense. I don't think I am prejudice against white people, just a certain KIND of white person who makes remarks like this without thinking or if there is any problem with Arabs or Asians they will wear offensive t shirts, paste bumper stickers all over their cars and they can't tell the different between Iran or Iraq or China or Japan. (Like in this book I am currently reading, one of too many where these people were upset about Asian cars and wore shirts that said things like, "Made in America, tested in Japan" with a picture of a mushroom cloud. Why? It makes no sense. Thats one of the most offensive things...) Why can't people EVOLVE and stop acting like that?
[ December 15, 2006, 06:42 PM: Message edited by: Synesthesia ]
Posted by Strider (Member # 1807) on :
quote:Me, I'm tired of the concept of race. I can't understand why we need it, or why people insist on judging people based on something as arbitrary or illigical as skin colour and facial features. But this sort of thing matters to many people.
You say this after listing all your problems with WHITE people. You just judged me by the color of my skin.
Posted by Strider (Member # 1807) on :
quote:I don't think I am prejudice against white people, just a certain KIND of white person who makes remarks like this without thinking
why can't you just have a problem with *people* that make remarks like that without thinking. People from every race, culture, and religion do it.
I don't mean to jump on you, but it seems to me you're perpetuating the same thing you're diatribe is against by making such broad generalizations.
Posted by Synesthesia (Member # 4774) on :
I'm not specifically judging you. I am talking about the sort of people who make remarks like, "He's so articulate." or "What country are you from?" or who casually make statements about blacks on welfare when the majority of people on welfare are white. I am talkin about a certain KIND of people who say things like that, not about all white people. I did not say that EVERY SINGLE WHITE PERSON in America makes these sort of remarks. And the few people who do do not know that they are offensive. They are unaware of how bothered people get by hearing things like that. I know that people from every religion and culture and race do things like this, but this topic is about white people who do this, who may not be card carrying members of the KKK and are as clueless as people who ask impolite questions to people who have adopted like, "How much did you pay for her?" They don't mean to say something hurtful, but they do and they need to learn not to do that...
Posted by General Sax (Member # 9694) on :
It cracked me up in Germany how many German kids tried to speak English 'ghetto' I thought how strange to learn a second language and learn to speak it like a junior high drop out.
As far as other cultures go, I have often wondered why Blacks think they have another culture when they are from here and have been for generations. Do fifth generation Hispanics try to feign deep roots in Spain or Mexico? "Oh my ancestors were defeated in battle in Africa and sold to slavers, except the half that were white, feel my pride...
As for racism against Asians, well I think that success is the best revenge and so to do most of the Asians I have met. As for those who practice Islam, well we are at war with them and they with us so they are being treated pretty well.
Posted by kmbboots (Member # 8576) on :
So people of color who make those kinds of statements are ok?
Posted by Synesthesia (Member # 4774) on :
quote:Originally posted by kmbboots: So people of color who make those kinds of statements are ok?
No, it isn't ok... I hate stereotyping, there's really only a handful of people who do stuff like this, like threatening Mosques after 9/11 or using words like "Gook" and being racist against anyone Asian and not just Vietnese people...
Posted by kmbboots (Member # 8576) on :
So why single us out?
Posted by James Tiberius Kirk (Member # 2832) on :
quote:I'm not specifically judging you. I am talking about the sort of people who make remarks like, "He's so articulate." or "What country are you from?" or who casually make statements about blacks on welfare when the majority of people on welfare are white. I am talkin about a certain KIND of people who say things like that, not about all white people. I did not say that EVERY SINGLE WHITE PERSON in America makes these sort of remarks. And the few people who do do not know that they are offensive. They are unaware of how bothered people get by hearing things like that. I know that people from every religion and culture and race do things like this, but this topic is about white people who do this, who may not be card carrying members of the KKK and are as clueless as people who ask impolite questions to people who have adopted like, "How much did you pay for her?" They don't mean to say something hurtful, but they do and they need to learn not to do that...
Syn, I understand your point, but I think what Strider and others may be wondering is, "why is there a topic speficially about whites who behave in this fashion, and not anyone else?"
--j_k
Posted by James Tiberius Kirk (Member # 2832) on :
Again?
Is there a lag time between when I post and when it shows up? Oy.
--j_k
Posted by Synesthesia (Member # 4774) on :
quote:Originally posted by kmbboots: So why single us out?
Not all white people. The people who do this sort of thing, who have this casual racism, it needs to stop. People need to educate themselves, do more research and not make these kind of remarks because they are extremely insensitive.
Posted by kmbboots (Member # 8576) on :
Synesthesia, it might be better to complain about people who engage in a bad behaviour without referencing race. The behaviour is bad, whoever does it. Right?
Posted by TheGrimace (Member # 9178) on :
I'll agree that at least Americans as a general rule are often very insensitive to racial differences (and I'll even go so far as to say white americans).
However, I disagree about the whole "tired of the concept of race." While I don't like it being used as a method of predjudice or judgement, race is an important factor in life and will continue to be for a long time (potentially forever). Perhaps we'll get to the point in another few hundred years where the color of your skin won't necessarily be a usable factor in determining race, but there will always be important cultural differences based on your upbringing and surroundings etc...
Examples: My coworker David: his family is Chinese and he's been in the country for 20 years and is a very intelligent guy, went to American Highschool and college etc, is fluent in english, yet he perpetually makes notable grammar mistakes due to his childhood speaking chinese, and his often using jokes and/or phrases that don't make sense in English.
Another coworker just got back from a trip to Japan where it was important for her to constantly be aware of extreme cultural differences in how to phrase things, certain things to say and not say, how to interpret questions etc...
Other people can quickly sum up a rough synopsis by saying things like "I'm a German Catholic"
Even as much as America is a melting pot, there are extreme differences between someone who was born and raised in rural west virginia versus rural Idaho versus Harlem versus Chino versus East Saint Louis versus Beverly Hills...
Do we all need a greater appreciation of the state of the rest of the world? Certainly
Am I offended when every European I ran into brought up Capone whenever I mentioned being from Chicago? No, and I don't think others should be either unless these kinds of things are pointedly malicious.
There's way too much focus on extreme political correctness past the point of reason.
Posted by Dagonee (Member # 5818) on :
Synesthesia, you seem to be unaware how bothered people get by hearing common stereotypes about white people, such as "Many white people do not bother to try to understand other people's cultures." You may not have meant to say something hurtful, but you did and you need to learn not to do that...
Posted by Synesthesia (Member # 4774) on :
quote:Originally posted by kmbboots: Synesthesia, it might be better to complain about people who engage in a bad behaviour without referencing race. The behaviour is bad, whoever does it. Right?
It is, but right now, since I'm reading this book Yellow and this other book about slavery called Of Inhuman Bondage my problem is specifically with a handful of American white people... Many who would wonder why people would even be offended by such statements. I can't, at this moment think of equivolent remarks directed at white people, maybe assuming that all white people are rich (the phrase white people doesn't really make a damn bit of sense... neither does black people, neither one look black or white, why do we even have to USE those phrases in the first place?) the way my relatives would, statements like that against white people bother me too, statements like that against any group of people, gays, Christians, when people assume that all white people are racist when they are not. That is not my intention in starting this topic, staying that every single white person in America is racist and insensitive towards other ethnic groups. Maybe it's something that needs to be pointed out. People don't always know they are being rude even with "positive" stereotypes like assuming that all Asians are good in math and all black people have good rhthym. I don't know what can be done about the problem, it's so engrained in the culture, in the movies and shows that people don't notice it. It seems like stupid little things, like making whooping noises or whatever, but it's still disrespectful...
Posted by kmbboots (Member # 8576) on :
Synesthsia, how would it sound if I said, "I am not saying that every single black person in american is lazy and stupid, but I am reading this book about it and I just hate black people who are lazy and stupid"?
You see what I am doing there? Replacing ethnicity and attributes doesn't help it any.
Posted by James Tiberius Kirk (Member # 2832) on :
quote:That is not my intention in starting this topic, staying that every single white person in America is racist and insensitive towards other ethnic groups.
*nod* But the problem with this thread is that the title implies that only whites are capable of of the type of behavior you describe, or at least that the behavior appears predominatly in the white population. While that probably wasn't your intention either, the statement "People and group X have Y traits" can be considered a type of stereotyping, even though it usually isn't intended to.
--j_k
Posted by Synesthesia (Member # 4774) on :
quote:Originally posted by Dagonee: Synesthesia, you seem to be unaware how bothered people get by hearing common stereotypes about white people, such as "Many white people do not bother to try to understand other people's cultures." You may not have meant to say something hurtful, but you did and you need to learn not to do that...
I need to find a way to make what I'm saying clearer, I've read the topic several times and have changed it to try to do that. It's not all white people. It's some, a handful, I don't know how many, but some. Perhaps I shouldn't bother posting when my head feels like this, but it's only some white people who are like this, who might make casual statements they don't intend to be racist, but they are and it BOTHERS ME. It bothers me so much. I am so tired of all these ism and my inability to do anything about it. Like this model minority myth and things like that. What I want is for all people to evolve and to stop doing things like this, to stop with the unconscious racist remarks and to respect people, but I have no idea if that will ever come about. I'm thinking about the future and having an unsual family and what I can do about the remaks that could be made and how to combat them. I am not singling out every single white person, only the minority of people who still do things like this and wonder why the person got so angry at them. If stuff like that happened to me, i was too stupid or too in my own world to notice it... Maybe it happened when I was younger or something.
Posted by Irami Osei-Frimpong (Member # 2229) on :
Synesthesia, I think it'll help if you embrace the idea of race as a cultural paradigm in America.
quote: I'm tired of the concept of race. I can't understand why we need it, or why people insist on judging people based on something as arbitrary or illogical as skin color and facial features. I don't understand why people stereotype based on these things. But this sort of thing matters to many people.
It's not about skin color or facial features. It's about cultural history and how that informs who we are as people.
Posted by Synesthesia (Member # 4774) on :
Maybe I feel like I don't HAVE a culture in a way... Like i don't exactly fit into society and I'm not sure why that is. I went to a school with all black people, and didn't completely fit in, I went to college with primarily white people, didn't really completely fit in there either. I think I have my own individual culture or something, if that's possible. I don't know. I do know all the white stereotypes irratate me as much as the black, Asian, Jewish or what ever. I have no idea how we're going to become a society that doesn't do that anymore and sees people as people and not a series of stereotypes or jokes, or a group to use as a plot devise.
Posted by pH (Member # 1350) on :
quote:Originally posted by Synesthesia:
quote:Originally posted by kmbboots: So why single us out?
Not all white people. The people who do this sort of thing, who have this casual racism, it needs to stop. People need to educate themselves, do more research and not make these kind of remarks because they are extremely insensitive.
Which is the same behavior displayed in comments like this:
quote:White people have the luxury of not having to think about their whiteness.
I know others have already mentioned this, but it's a huge, huge pet peeve of mine.
-pH
Posted by Synesthesia (Member # 4774) on :
I don't think a lot of white people have to think about their whiteness the way, say, black people think about blackness... Which just makes me think of something else, stuff that happened ages ago, the way some security guard in high school said I wasn't black enough, for some silly reason, perhaps because she asked me about the Oscars or something. I don't even LIKE the Oscars, I will only watch it if nothing else is on, or maybe I didn't act.. stereotypical enough, I didn't like rap, I didn't dress or act a certain way, I don't know why that's a problem or why she should even care... You'd never get this sort of thing from white folks, but mostly from fellow black people which doesn't make any sense because why should i prove my blackness by acting in a way I don't want to act when I am walking around with such awesome looking brown skin? But that's a bit of a tangent, but it still annoys me, and a former stepmother said the same thing because I din't like the latest music. I don't think a lot of white people make as big a deal about being white and the Standards of White Behavior the way some blacks do, or maybe it doesn't permiate their existence the way some people mght have to double-think before they talk in order not to seem like a negative stereotype. I don't think I do that, but I've had to retype stuff dozens of times so I don't sound harsh ><. Maybe it just seems like that because of my weird perception. There doesn't seem to be the same WEIGHT to being white like there is to being black, but I can't figure out how to state that in a clear way, the feeling is different.
I got to find books about how Irish people, Italians and Eastern Europeans weren't considered white at one time...
I don't mean to come out as offensive, but I feel like it's something that needs to be pointed out and then eliminated... So that people think before immatating Asian languages with "ching chang chong" when they don't even sound like that, or before people assume that a black person got a job because of affirmative action or stuff like that...
Posted by Strider (Member # 1807) on :
quote:I do know all the white stereotypes irratate me as much as the black, Asian, Jewish or what ever.
What if you're white AND Jewish? then you gotta deal with it from both ends!
Oy Gevalt!
Posted by pH (Member # 1350) on :
My boyfriend and I are both blonde, blue-eyed, and part Cherokee. I think he's half Cherokee, actually. And we don't find the need to think about our "redness" or whatever, either. I think any perceived "need" to think about it is, for the most part, self-imposed and should not be used to illustrate some kind of racial inequality.
-pH
Posted by Synesthesia (Member # 4774) on :
I got Cherokee ancestors on my father's side.
Posted by TheGrimace (Member # 9178) on :
While I'm not going to make any claims that whiteness incurs anything even remotely approaching the kind of problems that other ethnicities tends to do (both here and abroad) I will say that I'm constantly aware of my whiteness living in LA and constantly have to watch my words carefully and honestly it bothers me that I have to.
hell, I even get harassed by people when I mention that someone is short, because apparently some people are offended when someone comments correctly on their height.
<note: Synesthesia this rant isn't directed at you so much as at the whole concept of political correctness>
another example of how these examples of unintentional racism are unfair to everyone: 1) I meet someone of Asian descent and comment on how good their english is. They get offended because they are from Detroit. 2) I meet someone of Asian descent and comment on how good their english is. They are from Beijing and are quite flattered that their training has paid off so well. 3) I meet someone of Asian descent and comment on how good their english is. They are from LA, but commisserate with me on how much they have to try, and how much it bothers them when other Asians make mistakes based on their upbringing. (note this last one is actually one of my coworkers)
I'll agree that it can be offensive to some, but it can also be the appropriate flattering response, or a neutral comment to make.
And certainly there are certain things to avoid, such as blatantly assuming that someone is from another country just because they aren't white, but I'd argue that at least a portion of what you're mentioning as bothering you are in fact perfectly acceptable things to do/say in various circumstances that just happen to backfire sometimes.
It's kinda like congratulating someone who you think is pregnant only to find that they're just overweight. but if you didn't congratulate them on the pregnancy they might think you assumed they were just fat...
Posted by rivka (Member # 4859) on :
quote:Originally posted by Synesthesia: I don't mean to come out as offensive, but I feel like it's something that needs to be pointed out and then eliminated... So that people think before immatating Asian languages with "ching chang chong" when they don't even sound like that, or before people assume that a black person got a job because of affirmative action or stuff like that...
Both types of things which are done by blacks, Asians, etc. IOW, it's not whether it's all whites, some whites, or most whites -- it's not about whites, it's about people.
A lot of these incidents come from innocent ignorance.
I have had variants of the following conversation many times.
Person who has noticed my snood (or something else about how I dress): Where are you from?
Me: Here.
P: No, I mean where were you born.
Me: New Jersey.
P: Oh. Where are your parents from?
Me: New York and Chicago.
P: Aren't you from Israel?
Me: Nope. I have some relatives who live there, but most of them were born in the U.S. too.
Posted by Synesthesia (Member # 4774) on :
Yeah, you can't win in a way, but you got to admit it's gotten better. Also, I admit some people can be so over sensitive and automatically assume that a person is being racist because they say the wrong thing wtihout meaning to because they just don't know. Like dealing with a woman who is really irratable and will get so mad if you say it's because of PMS when she had a rough day. Maybe people of other races should put themselves in the shoes of well-meaning white people who are just trying to carry on a conversation and don't mean to step on toes, and whites should put themselves in the shoes of people who get so tired of hearing people say the same sort of things to them all the time.
Posted by The Pixiest (Member # 1863) on :
Ya know, people compliment my accent ALL the time when they find out I'm from the south.
Posted by Satlin (Member # 1593) on :
I come from a place (within the U.S.) where white people are the minority, and I can tell you that racism is something that occurs across cultural and ethnic boundaries. I'm as likely to be stereotyped as I walk into a store as anyone else, even though I'm "white", because racism isn't something that one race does to another, it's something one individual does to another. It goes back to that old fact about how there is more genetic diversity in a troop of baboons than in the human race. Individual variaition in personality is more important in affecting a person's characteristics than skin color.
Like Irami pointed out earlier, culture is what makes large groups of people act differently from other groups of people. That occurs within races as well as (and more frequently than) between them. White college students probably have a different culture than white WWII veterans living in Chile. No one is 100% genetically one "race" anyway so racists are hypocrites because their as likely as not to be at least partially related to the race they're berating.
Posted by Synesthesia (Member # 4774) on :
I did say up there that people from every culture and religion do it. It's a stupid and annoying thing to do. I don't care if it's biological, we don't need it anymore. Nowadays it seems to cause more problems than solve them...
Posted by pH (Member # 1350) on :
quote:Originally posted by Satlin: I come from a place (within the U.S.) where white people are the minority,
Where? I live in New Orleans.
-pH
Posted by Uprooted (Member # 8353) on :
quote:Originally posted by Synesthesia: Some whites will also say the same thing about black people. "You're so articulate." They may not realise that what they are saying is offensive, but it is.
Well, if you mean that the implication is "you're very articulate for a black person," then that certainly is offensive. However, how can you know? I've been told I'm articulate before (even though lately I swear I can't utter a coherent thought). I'm white, so I have no reason to be suspicious of the compliment. But if the same person said it to you, do you think it's a given that it would be meant condescendingly?
Posted by Satlin (Member # 1593) on :
quote:Originally posted by pH:
quote:Originally posted by Satlin: I come from a place (within the U.S.) where white people are the minority,
Where? I live in New Orleans.
-pH
New Mexico Posted by Uprooted (Member # 8353) on :
Oh, btw Syn, I'm not negating that those kinds of comments are made and meant in the way you said. I know it's out there, and I try to examine my own attitudes.
Posted by Rappin' Ronnie Reagan (Member # 5626) on :
I think Syn's point in her opening post - that being in the majority race in America confers benefits that members of that race often don't realize - is an important one.
Posted by kojabu (Member # 8042) on :
quote:racism isn't something that one race does to another, it's something one individual does to another.
When you start discussing institutional and legalized racism, that line gets muddled.
Posted by Belle (Member # 2314) on :
quote:White people have the luxury of not having to think about their whiteness. No one will doubt their intelligence because of the colour of their skin,
No, but they will because of the accent they use when they speak, or if they say they're from Alabama, or they happen to listen to country music and like NASCAR.
White people are not immune to being stereotyped and judged.
Posted by Destineer (Member # 821) on :
quote:Recently my favourite band came here from Japan to play at the Family Values Tour with Korn
You're not talking about Melt-Banana, are you?
Posted by Synesthesia (Member # 4774) on :
quote:Originally posted by Destineer:
quote:Recently my favourite band came here from Japan to play at the Family Values Tour with Korn
You're not talking about Melt-Banana, are you?
No,. DIR EN GREY!!! THEY ARE SO AWESOME!!!! But I wish people had been more open minded towards them. They are so GOOD. I love that band.
I like some country music and was born in the south...
Posted by pH (Member # 1350) on :
What bothers me is that apparently, racism towards non-whites is a BIG BIG PROBLEM, whereas racism towards whites is rarely even mentioned. It's a really stupid double standard. If you really want to get rid of racism, then stop looking at a racial group as the source of all racism and oppression.
-pH
Posted by Synesthesia (Member # 4774) on :
quote:Originally posted by Rappin' Ronnie Reagan: I think Syn's point in her opening post - that being in the majority race in America confers benefits that members of that race often don't realize - is an important one.
That's the point i was trying to make. All racism is bad, but on a historical level, white on non-white racism is a bit worse because historically most of the power belong to whites. Historically speaking, non-whites haven't had the power to shut out whites the way whites have, to shut them out of jobs or housing, that sort of thing, or to impose segragation. What many fail to realize is that racism has been institutional in this country for ages. It makes me so angry that it took several centuries for blacks to get any sort of equality. Not to mention all the problems other non-whites have had. Perhaps it's wrong of me to get angry over innocent remarks that people don't intend to be racist, but it's history, there's an other side of history a whole group of people is unaware of.
Posted by Satlin (Member # 1593) on :
quote:Originally posted by kojabu:
quote:racism isn't something that one race does to another, it's something one individual does to another.
When you start discussing institutional and legalized racism, that line gets muddled.
Agreed, but institutional-level policies have to come from somewhere.
Posted by pH (Member # 1350) on :
quote: there's an other side of history a whole group of people is unaware of. --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Emphasis mine.
That is exactly the kind of crap I'm talking about. You're not comfortable with even the POSSIBILITY that someone might be making a generalization about a group to which you belong, but you're perfectly comfortable making generalizations about another group. That's bull.
-pH
Posted by Synesthesia (Member # 4774) on :
Dude, I'm not making generalizations, there really are SOME PEOPLE who are unaware of history, who never really have to think about it and ask, why don't you put it behind you, it's not that simple, just because it's the past doesn't mean it's not still there. There are quite a few people who have the illusion that America is this perfect country, and this isn't the case. Back in school we got the edited version of history that brushed over the nastier details of things. This needs to be faced so we can have a future where this sort of stuff doesn't exist anymore. I'm not making generalizations, stop accusing me of that, I'm trying to point out the way the nastier aspects of history have been ignored and what it has done to this country, somehow it has to stop...
Posted by littlemissattitude (Member # 4514) on :
quote:Originally posted by Synesthesia: White people have the luxury of not having to think about their whiteness. No one will doubt their intelligence because of the colour of their skin, usually that has more to do with poverty than anything else. They don't know what it's like to be Native American and to have aspects of your culture constantly poked fun of and cannot understand why some Native Americans are offended by names like the Chiefs or the Braves or that whole waving of the tomahawk thing.
Well, no...I've never had my intelligence doubted because of the color of my skin. On the other hand I have had my intelligence not only doubted but insulted many times because I am a woman. Other times, this has happened because I am fat. Because everyone knows, you know, that fat people are all stupid and lazy.
In addition, there are the numerous times where, when people have found out that my father was born in Germany, the automatic next question has seemed to be, "So, are you a Nazi?" Excuse me? My father was in the Army-Air Force in World War II and spent two years in a Nazi prisoner of war camp, and that makes that question even more offensive to me than it would be otherwise.
So, you know, don't assume that I don't know how it is to be stereotyped because of my ancestry or because of what I look like.
Posted by katharina (Member # 827) on :
Syn, you started a thread to discuss how to combat racism and proceed to fill with a great deal of casual racism.
Posted by pH (Member # 1350) on :
Here are just a few of the racial generalizations you've made:
quote:Many white people do not bother to try to understand other people's cultures, but blacks, Asian Americans, Latinos, Native Americans and other non-whites cannot afford this, they have to learn to navagate through the primarily white world.
quote:this topic is about white people who do this
quote:There doesn't seem to be the same WEIGHT to being white like there is to being black
quote:white on non-white racism is a bit worse
Hey, you wanna talk about negative stereotypes against whites? Isn't there a movie called White Men Can't Jump? What about the idea that white people can't dance? That white people are worse at basketball? That white people are afraid people who aren't white?
What bothers me is that you're focusing on WHITE PEOPLE who do this and not PEOPLE. PEOPLE from any race can be racist, and focusing on it like it's a big problem for whites and not for anyone else is inherently racist.
-pH
Posted by Synesthesia (Member # 4774) on :
I'm not assuming you don't know what it's like to be stereotyped. And I'm not trying to be racist... I'm not saying that every single last white person is like this or is a secret member of the kkk, i am saying that some are like this without intending to be that way, or some will jump on the bandwagon against a group without knowing the full story behind things. But I am not lumping all white people into the same catergory and in fact think that things like this are stupid and I wish we could just get rid of it...
I wish I could find a clearer way to say what I'm trying to say!
Posted by Alcon (Member # 6645) on :
Ok, too different problems with things you've said here Syn.
First:
quote:All racism is bad, but on a historical level, white on non-white racism is a bit worse because historically most of the power belong to whites. Historically speaking, non-whites haven't had the power to shut out whites the way whites have, to shut them out of jobs or housing, that sort of thing, or to impose segragation. What many fail to realize is that racism has been institutional in this country for ages. It makes me so angry that it took several centuries for blacks to get any sort of equality. Not to mention all the problems other non-whites have had. Perhaps it's wrong of me to get angry over innocent remarks that people don't intend to be racist, but it's history, there's an other side of history a whole group of people is unaware of.
You want to know why people can't just let racism go? Cause you're still beating the dead horse!! I'm sorry, but I never held slaves, I've never put a black person down for being black and hell if black people would let me, I'd love to forget about that entire part of history, I'd love to forget about skin color.
And you know, I've met a number of black people who let me do just that, I don't even notice the color of their skin -- anymore than I notice the color of their hair. But there are others who very much don't. I don't know what it is, something about the way they act, the way they treat me, I feel like I'm walking on thin ice around them.
Second:
You're using "white" like it's a monolithic race. It's not! I can tell people of different descents apart. Someone of Irish decent clearly looks different from someone of Italian or Scandinavian decent. Folks of Irish decent get stereotyped all the time for being of Irish decent. As do Italian folks. Haven't you ever heard people making jokes about people of obvious Italian decent being in the mob? Or someone say "Well, duh he's an alcoholic, he's Irish!" Are you gonna tell me that's different from black folks being stereotyped, some how less? Cause their skin's white?
Posted by Synesthesia (Member # 4774) on :
quote:Originally posted by pH: Here are just a few of the racial generalizations you've made:
quote:Many white people do not bother to try to understand other people's cultures, but blacks, Asian Americans, Latinos, Native Americans and other non-whites cannot afford this, they have to learn to navagate through the primarily white world.
quote:this topic is about white people who do this
quote:There doesn't seem to be the same WEIGHT to being white like there is to being black
quote:white on non-white racism is a bit worse
Hey, you wanna talk about negative stereotypes against whites? Isn't there a movie called White Men Can't Jump? What about the idea that white people can't dance? That white people are worse at basketball? That white people are afraid people who aren't white?
What bothers me is that you're focusing on WHITE PEOPLE who do this and not PEOPLE. PEOPLE from any race can be racist, and focusing on it like it's a big problem for whites and not for anyone else is inherently racist.
-pH
It is a big problem for everyone, but this is the historical weight...
I give up. I hate race, I don't understand why it exists... or why it even matters or why so much is attached to skin color and what country a person comes from and how these stupid stereotypes will just stick to things for centuries. I don't understand why it's still like that even today...
Posted by pH (Member # 1350) on :
Syn, Irish people used to not be able to get jobs in the States. And hey, people in this country think it's perfectly cool to mock the French. There's PLENTY of historical weight to go along with many, many different varieties of European.
Also, what Alcon said.
-pH
Posted by Synesthesia (Member # 4774) on :
quote:Originally posted by Alcon: Ok, too different problems with things you've said here Syn.
First:
quote:All racism is bad, but on a historical level, white on non-white racism is a bit worse because historically most of the power belong to whites. Historically speaking, non-whites haven't had the power to shut out whites the way whites have, to shut them out of jobs or housing, that sort of thing, or to impose segragation. What many fail to realize is that racism has been institutional in this country for ages. It makes me so angry that it took several centuries for blacks to get any sort of equality. Not to mention all the problems other non-whites have had. Perhaps it's wrong of me to get angry over innocent remarks that people don't intend to be racist, but it's history, there's an other side of history a whole group of people is unaware of.
You want to know why people can't just let racism go? Cause you're still beating the dead horse!! I'm sorry, but I never held slaves, I've never put a black person down for being black and hell if black people would let me, I'd love to forget about that entire part of history, I'd love to forget about skin color.
And you know, I've met a number of black people who let me do just that, I don't even notice the color of their skin -- anymore than I notice the color of their hair. But there are others who very much don't. I don't know what it is, something about the way they act, the way they treat me, I feel like I'm walking on thin ice around them.
Second:
You're using "white" like it's a monolithic race. It's not! I can tell people of different descents apart. Someone of Irish decent clearly looks different from someone of Italian or Scandinavian decent. Folks of Irish decent get stereotyped all the time for being of Irish decent. As do Italian folks. Haven't you ever heard people making jokes about people of obvious Italian decent being in the mob? Or someone say "Well, duh he's an alcoholic, he's Irish!" Are you gonna tell me that's different from black folks being stereotyped, some how less? Cause their skin's white?
No, it's the same stupid thing... Assuming someone's in the mob because they are Italian Assuming all Irish people are drunks, and all Germans are nazis or over efficient and that Asians are like walking calculators. It's all dumb. And then you have stereotypes about black people, like their lazy. How the heck are black people lazy? That doesn't make any sense, non of these things make sense, but people will make all these remarks anyway and I just don't get it.
Posted by Will B (Member # 7931) on :
OK. So prejudice is bad and we don't need it any more.
But if it's innate, it doesn't matter if we don't need it; we're stuck with it.
What could we do, from that perspective? (I think it's essential we maintain that perspective. If we think we can eliminate it, we just get a chance to move it to a different target, and not realize we have it.)
Posted by Synesthesia (Member # 4774) on :
quote:Originally posted by pH: Syn, Irish people used to not be able to get jobs in the States. And hey, people in this country think it's perfectly cool to mock the French. There's PLENTY of historical weight to go along with many, many different varieties of European.
Also, what Alcon said.
-pH
At one point Irish people, Italians and Eastern Europeans weren't even considered white. They had anti-Irish and Italian signs, probably signs like that against Russians and stuff, that made no sense... I wonder when exactly did they begin to be considered white...
Posted by Synesthesia (Member # 4774) on :
quote:Originally posted by Will B: OK. So prejudice is bad and we don't need it any more.
But if it's innate, it doesn't matter if we don't need it; we're stuck with it.
What could we do, from that perspective? (I think it's essential we maintain that perspective. If we think we can eliminate it, we just get a chance to move it to a different target, and not realize we have it.)
Realize that it's that internal primative creature inside saying, FEAR, BE SCARED, SOMEONE DIFFERENT and turn that off somehow by addressing it? Accept people as complicated individuals and not a representative of a racial group that MUST have every single stereotype? I like difference, difference facinates me, it's beautiful and awesome and makes things more interested. But, I'm more likely to find myself scared of ALL PEOPLE and not just one group... Stupid social phobia.
Posted by dean (Member # 167) on :
quote:Originally posted by Synesthesia: Yeah, you can't win in a way, but you got to admit it's gotten better. Also, I admit some people can be so over sensitive and automatically assume that a person is being racist because they say the wrong thing wtihout meaning to because they just don't know. Like dealing with a woman who is really irratable and will get so mad if you say it's because of PMS when she had a rough day. Maybe people of other races should put themselves in the shoes of well-meaning white people who are just trying to carry on a conversation and don't mean to step on toes, and whites should put themselves in the shoes of people who get so tired of hearing people say the same sort of things to them all the time.
On this subject, I will tell you a story. I used to work at a bookstore, and as part of my job, I had to sell a certain percentage of discount cards. A woman came in and asked about a number of books. It was obvious that she was really a big reader and loved books. We were very slow, so I spent a great deal of time with her while she browsed this new title and that new title while her husband stood outside the shop, obviously less interested in reading, and not really wanting to browse.
She decided to get a couple of books and her husband drifted over to pay for it and (because it was a small store), I was also the one to ring them up. I offered them a discount card. She said that she didn't want one because she's not from around here, and probably wouldn't have the chance to use it.
I asked her where she was from because people who are travelling generally seem to like to talk about their hometown and so that if she said that she was from Georgia or Florida I could point out that we have stores in her home state and it might well benefit her. This was also something I often asked out-of-towners because many people did not realize which chain we were a part of and it sometimes led to people realizing that they already had one of our cards and getting their discount.
Her husband jumped in and yelled at me for saying something so insensitive.
His reaction doesn't really make sense unless I mention that the woman was Asian and I am white and currently reside in Alabama.
It was completely obvious to me that she was an American. I expected her to answer that she was from California (because she had something of the accent of a Californian), but I asked on the off-chance she was from an area with one of our stores and because it would ruin my percentage and probably get me written up if I didn't sell a discount card soon.
However, her (white) husband interpreted me (as in the book [i]Yellow[/i} (which I've read)) as asking insensitively whether she was Chinese or Japanese or what.
What he didn't realize is that if she'd been a white woman, I would have asked the same thing and not have been thought to be insensitive. Many of the people I had asked up until that point, and many of the people I asked afterwards were eager to tell me where they were from and seemed pleased at being asked. And I never asked unless someone had already told me that they weren't from the area.
Is it really be insensitive to ask where someone is from when they've just told you that they're just visiting?
Unlike the people in Yellow, who wouldn't accept an answer of "North Dakota," that was all the answer I was looking for.
Yes, I realize that people asking Americans of Asian decent where they're "really" from is a problem, but this wasn't that. It was just the natural next step in a conversation:
"Would you like a discount card?"
"No, I'm just visiting this state."
"Really? Where are you from?"
The incident still bothers me because I don't feel that I did anything wrong. I didn't treat this lady any differently because of her parents' or grandparents' home country. I didn't make any inappropriate assumptions about where she was from. I treated her just as I would've treated any customer (and particularly any customer who I felt might possibly benefit from a discount card).
And I got accused of being racist.
Why? I can only assume that it's because I am a blond-haired, blue eyed resident of Alabama.
Should I have done something differently? Was this man's reaction justified? Did he even realize the assumptions he'd made about me? Was I being racist?
I still feel ashamed at the memory of this, but I really don't think I did anything wrong. It makes me angry, but I don't know who I'm angry at.
I can see both sides so clearly, but I am still chagrined and ashamed and angry, and I want to track that man down and tell him that he completely misjudged me. I think that his wife (who had spent about thirty minutes with me by that time) knew that he had overreacted and that it was an innocuous question leading directly from what she had just said and asking only an innocuous answer.
I still don't know what I should have done.
Posted by Synesthesia (Member # 4774) on :
Don't feel bad about it, i reckon. He was the one who overracted to an innocent question, but then he could have gotten that question all of the time and might have been over sensitive and mgiht have just bristled at the wrong person.. it's so difficult Posted by dean (Member # 167) on :
But wasn't I treated in a racist fashion as in the stereotype that all white Alabamans are racists? Do you really think he'd've jumped down my throat if I'd been Asian? Or more racially mixed?
The idea of just trying not to feel bad about being stereotyped seems to be the antithesis of many of these threads about racism.
After all, didn't you say in the other thread that telling Chinese people to not be so sensitive to the whole "ching chang" thing was wrong?
I'm angry to be so misjudged. I'm angry that my (from my perspective) polite interest was so violently rebuffed based on (I'm pretty sure) an estimation of my appearance and supposed history.
I don't think that you'd tell someone of a different race to not feel bad about it. Would you?
I realize that this sounds attacking, but this is part of what I struggle with when I think of this incident.
Posted by Synesthesia (Member # 4774) on :
It was wrong for him to think you're racist just because you're from Alabama... Maybe he had other experiences or something, he should have not jumped to conclusions.
I didn't exactly say telling Chinese people not to be sensitive was wrong, I said I'm sensitive about racism about Asians and I don't exactly know why...
and I probably would say the same thing to someone of any race because I wouldn't know what else to say... as the person would feel really bad afterwards...
Posted by dean (Member # 167) on :
That's fair.
I try not to think about this incident, but it always gets me very upset when I remember it.
Posted by Synesthesia (Member # 4774) on :
quote:Originally posted by dean: That's fair.
I try not to think about this incident, but it always gets me very upset when I remember it.
I'm so sorry you went through that... Posted by Elmer's Glue (Member # 9313) on :
White people have it rough because people from every race are racist, but white people are always blamed for it.
Posted by Irami Osei-Frimpong (Member # 2229) on :
Elmer's Glue, you have profound point, and I'm not going to argue the truth in it. I think Chris Rock puts a modest perspective on the situation:
quote: "That's how good it is to be white. None of you would change places with me -- and I'm rich!... There's a white, one-legged busboy in here right now that won't change places with me. 'He's going 'no, man, I don't wanna switch. I wanna ride this white thing out. See where it takes me.'"
Posted by Javert (Member # 3076) on :
quote:Originally posted by pH: What bothers me is that apparently, racism towards non-whites is a BIG BIG PROBLEM, whereas racism towards whites is rarely even mentioned. It's a really stupid double standard. If you really want to get rid of racism, then stop looking at a racial group as the source of all racism and oppression.
-pH
Having an acceptable prejudice against the group "at the top" (or at least the group perceived to be "at the top") is nothing new.
For example, when was the last time you saw a commercial/tv show/movie where the father knew how to take care of the kids when his wife left him alone?
Posted by Synesthesia (Member # 4774) on :
quote:Originally posted by Javert:
quote:Originally posted by pH: What bothers me is that apparently, racism towards non-whites is a BIG BIG PROBLEM, whereas racism towards whites is rarely even mentioned. It's a really stupid double standard. If you really want to get rid of racism, then stop looking at a racial group as the source of all racism and oppression.
-pH
Having an acceptable prejudice against the group "at the top" (or at least the group perceived to be "at the top") is nothing new.
For example, when was the last time you saw a commercial/tv show/movie where the father knew how to take care of the kids when his wife left him alone?
That's another thing that bothers me! Why do they make men on television shows LOOK SO STUPID? All the time the woman does EVERYTHING but when they ask the man to do something, the cat is dangling from the ceiling, junk everywhere, dishes not washed, kids eating nothing but cookies and p b and j sandwiches, which they have to make themselves because of course the dad doesn't even know how to make a pb and j sandwich!! grah!
Posted by Javert (Member # 3076) on :
quote:Originally posted by Synesthesia:
quote:Originally posted by Javert:
quote:Originally posted by pH: What bothers me is that apparently, racism towards non-whites is a BIG BIG PROBLEM, whereas racism towards whites is rarely even mentioned. It's a really stupid double standard. If you really want to get rid of racism, then stop looking at a racial group as the source of all racism and oppression.
-pH
Having an acceptable prejudice against the group "at the top" (or at least the group perceived to be "at the top") is nothing new.
For example, when was the last time you saw a commercial/tv show/movie where the father knew how to take care of the kids when his wife left him alone?
That's another thing that bothers me! Why do they make men on television shows LOOK SO STUPID? All the time the woman does EVERYTHING but when they ask the man to do something, the cat is dangling from the ceiling, junk everywhere, dishes not washed, kids eating nothing but cookies and p b and j sandwiches, which they have to make themselves because of course the dad doesn't even know how to make a pb and j sandwich!! grah!
They do it because it's funny. And if they did the exact same thing, but depicted the woman as stupid, people would be more likely to find it offensive. At least that seems to be the opinion of the producers.
Posted by Synesthesia (Member # 4774) on :
quote:Originally posted by Javert:
quote:Originally posted by Synesthesia:
quote:Originally posted by Javert:
quote:Originally posted by pH: What bothers me is that apparently, racism towards non-whites is a BIG BIG PROBLEM, whereas racism towards whites is rarely even mentioned. It's a really stupid double standard. If you really want to get rid of racism, then stop looking at a racial group as the source of all racism and oppression.
-pH
Having an acceptable prejudice against the group "at the top" (or at least the group perceived to be "at the top") is nothing new.
For example, when was the last time you saw a commercial/tv show/movie where the father knew how to take care of the kids when his wife left him alone?
That's another thing that bothers me! Why do they make men on television shows LOOK SO STUPID? All the time the woman does EVERYTHING but when they ask the man to do something, the cat is dangling from the ceiling, junk everywhere, dishes not washed, kids eating nothing but cookies and p b and j sandwiches, which they have to make themselves because of course the dad doesn't even know how to make a pb and j sandwich!! grah!
They do it because it's funny. And if they did the exact same thing, but depicted the woman as stupid, people would be more likely to find it offensive. At least that seems to be the opinion of the producers.
it's not funny to me, it's aggravating, I'd hate to end up with a man like that, plus it's rather rude to men who are not like that..
Then again, I think that some of the women on those shows are stupid. They have these men and they know how they are and they fuss and yell at them anyway. They know the man they have is limited, he's not Einstien or Shakesphere, but just this guy! So why yell at him when they knew he was like that when they married him?
How about this, what if I said there was a certain type of feminist I dislike despite the fact that I am a feminist myself and believe in women's equality? It's the sort of feminist who thinks that ALL men are evil and if women ran the world there wouldn't be any war... That never makes sense to me...
Posted by pH (Member # 1350) on :
quote:Originally posted by Javert:
quote:Originally posted by pH: What bothers me is that apparently, racism towards non-whites is a BIG BIG PROBLEM, whereas racism towards whites is rarely even mentioned. It's a really stupid double standard. If you really want to get rid of racism, then stop looking at a racial group as the source of all racism and oppression.
-pH
Having an acceptable prejudice against the group "at the top" (or at least the group perceived to be "at the top") is nothing new.
For example, when was the last time you saw a commercial/tv show/movie where the father knew how to take care of the kids when his wife left him alone?
That doesn't make it RIGHT. There are all kinds of things in commercials/tv shows/movies that I absolutely hate. Like fat man/hot wife. Do not get me started on fat man/hot wife.
-pH
Posted by Rappin' Ronnie Reagan (Member # 5626) on :
Just because you deny that racism exists doesn't mean it doesn't exist. Racism is still very alive in society today, and you know who it quite often affects? Yep, minorities. As in people who aren't white. For example, there was a recent study done on callbacks for jobs, and it found that resumes with stereotypical black names received 50% less callbacks than identical resumes with names like "Emily" or "James." When the resumes were enhanced the ones with black names received no increase at all in callbacks while the others received a 30% increase.
Posted by pH (Member # 1350) on :
Is anyone here claiming that racism doesn't exist? If so, I missed that memo.
-pH
Posted by Rappin' Ronnie Reagan (Member # 5626) on :
People seem to have no problem saying that racism against whites exists. I'll give you that.
Posted by pH (Member # 1350) on :
quote:Originally posted by Rappin' Ronnie Reagan: People seem to have no problem saying that racism against whites exists. I'll give you that.
What's your point? No one here is saying that racism doesn't exist. Many people are saying yes, racism exists. And it's racist to believe that racism only goes from whites towards non-whites.
-pH
Posted by ricree101 (Member # 7749) on :
quote:Originally posted by Rappin' Ronnie Reagan: People seem to have no problem saying that racism against whites exists. I'll give you that.
People seem to be having no problem saying that racism as a whole exists, including racism directed at whites.
Posted by Irami Osei-Frimpong (Member # 2229) on :
We all get on by way of the butterfly effect, but the wind seems to blow a little bit gentler for white men. I heard it was even better in the seventies. I imagine the same can be true for people who are devastatingly handsome. I know I treat them better.
Trying to isolate the exact moment decision that propelled G.W. Bush to the White House is impossible. Is it racist to say that Bush wouldn't be president if he were black? Maybe, but if he were black, he probably wouldn't be a republican, and I'm not sure that Bush would have made it too far as a Democrat.
Synesthesia, you live in a country where race matters for a myriad of reasons. Them is the breaks. It's not that King had it wrong when he said that we shouldn't judge people by the color of their skin but by the content of their character, it's just that in America, for reasons of history, skin color, culture, character are all inter-related in a complicated way that makes macro-economics look like an exact science and the magic eight-ball, profound wisdom.
[ December 16, 2006, 03:19 AM: Message edited by: Irami Osei-Frimpong ]
Posted by MightyCow (Member # 9253) on :
Racism against whites does exist, but I don't think white people have much to complain about in America. How many white people in America have run into serious problems because they're white?
White people generally don't care if someone calls us a honkey, or a milk skin, or cracker, or whatever, because it doesn't mean anything. There's nothing behind it. White people generally have it pretty good in America, and many places in the world.
I never have to walk into a store and wonder if the clerk is going to think I'm a shoplifter just because of my skin color. I never have to wonder if the police car driving by is going to wonder why I drive such a nice car. I don't have to worry if at a job interview, they'll doubt that I speak English well enough to speak with clients on the phone.
Maybe people have negative stereotypes against white people, but in America, it sure doesn't hurt me much.
Posted by pH (Member # 1350) on :
Isn't it a little prejudiced to assume that that's what people are thinking about you? I mean, to assume that someone is a racist simply because of their skintone is...inconsistent to say the least. I'm not saying that racism doesn't exist. I'm saying that it's really, really stupid to ignore these parts of it, since they do contribute to the problem.
-pH
Posted by Irami Osei-Frimpong (Member # 2229) on :
Ph,
I'm not sure it's that simple. Pretending the differences in culture don't exist isn't the same as addressing the issue.
The normal answer is to push for a Uniformity of "American" culture that transcends race. The problem is that the cultural foundation of America is comprised of white guys who got around the practical problems of their ideals by way of brazen hypocrisy.
There is a cost to democracy, there is a cost to freedom, there is a cost to living under a rule of law, and these costs are blithely ignored because white people, starting with the founders, gamed the system to their advantage and control the debate.
Addressing these costs is a job. Really, it's taken a lion's share of my thought, and I'm fumbling. But I think that if we solve the problem of race in American, we will solve the War on Terror, the War on Drugs, Public Education and even make a damn big dent on the War on Global poverty. Race is the Golden Ticket that'll shed light all the nation's ills.
[ December 16, 2006, 03:53 AM: Message edited by: Irami Osei-Frimpong ]
Posted by pH (Member # 1350) on :
We're not talking about culture.
-pH
Posted by Lyrhawn (Member # 7039) on :
quote:Originally posted by Synesthesia:
quote:Originally posted by Javert:
quote:Originally posted by Synesthesia:
quote:Originally posted by Javert:
quote:Originally posted by pH: What bothers me is that apparently, racism towards non-whites is a BIG BIG PROBLEM, whereas racism towards whites is rarely even mentioned. It's a really stupid double standard. If you really want to get rid of racism, then stop looking at a racial group as the source of all racism and oppression.
-pH
Having an acceptable prejudice against the group "at the top" (or at least the group perceived to be "at the top") is nothing new.
For example, when was the last time you saw a commercial/tv show/movie where the father knew how to take care of the kids when his wife left him alone?
That's another thing that bothers me! Why do they make men on television shows LOOK SO STUPID? All the time the woman does EVERYTHING but when they ask the man to do something, the cat is dangling from the ceiling, junk everywhere, dishes not washed, kids eating nothing but cookies and p b and j sandwiches, which they have to make themselves because of course the dad doesn't even know how to make a pb and j sandwich!! grah!
They do it because it's funny. And if they did the exact same thing, but depicted the woman as stupid, people would be more likely to find it offensive. At least that seems to be the opinion of the producers.
it's not funny to me, it's aggravating, I'd hate to end up with a man like that, plus it's rather rude to men who are not like that..
Then again, I think that some of the women on those shows are stupid. They have these men and they know how they are and they fuss and yell at them anyway. They know the man they have is limited, he's not Einstien or Shakesphere, but just this guy! So why yell at him when they knew he was like that when they married him?
How about this, what if I said there was a certain type of feminist I dislike despite the fact that I am a feminist myself and believe in women's equality? It's the sort of feminist who thinks that ALL men are evil and if women ran the world there wouldn't be any war... That never makes sense to me...
It's because we have a society where making fun of men as fat, lazy, idiot slobs is perfectly okay, but mothers are more off limits. These aren't universal rules by any means, but I still think it's true. Having stupid female characters is funny, but it's also reviled as buying into an untrue stereotype. Having stupid males characters is alright, after all, they're just men. Having stupid HUSBANDS especially is a favorite. Having stupid inept wives is taboo. Mr. Mom being the best example I can think of to prove the point, or the Lifetime movie Mom's on Strike (though that one fairly went back the other way at the end).
Let's be honest. Men have a giant "kick me" sign on them in our society. You can call them fat and lazy, or stupid and ignorant, or racist and bigoted, or bad, horrible dead beat fathers, but you can't do that to women.
Last night Jay Leno told a joke about Naomi Watts' new move, I don't know the name. Her character has 'an affair that leads her through a voyage of self discovery.' Jay Leno jokes, 'why is it that when a woman has an affair, it's a voyage of self discovery, but when a man has an affair he's always shacking up with some hussy in a flat over on whatever street?'
Women aren't off limits by any means, but they get a lot of free rides. If a woman does an hour long stand up show on how stupid men are, women just nod their heads and go "yeah, that's right!" But if a man does an hour long stand up on how stupid women are, he's a mysogynistic pig. I think this especially goes for WHITE men.
Posted by pH (Member # 1350) on :
I think you can call women deadbeat moms if they are. But there's the other double standard where men who have lots of sex are cool, and women who have lots of sex are sluts. Our double standards are all kinds of contradictory towards each other. But I guess they kind of go together too...men are mindless sex drones, and women are...um....ethereal and libido-free?
-pH
Posted by Irami Osei-Frimpong (Member # 2229) on :
quote:We're not talking about culture.
-pH
No, you aren't talking about culture. I'm not sure you get to decide what "we're" talking about, especially considering that I think that race and culture are inextricable in a relevant way.
Posted by pH (Member # 1350) on :
quote:Originally posted by Irami Osei-Frimpong:
quote:We're not talking about culture.
-pH
No, you aren't talking about culture. I'm not sure you get to decide what "we're" talking about, especially considering that I think that race and culture are inextricable in a relevant way.
That's really amusing coming from someone who has, in the past, lumped together "whites" and certain select people who are minorities.
-pH
Posted by Irami Osei-Frimpong (Member # 2229) on :
In the past, I'll do it right now. White people are screwing up the World, and they don't care because they are too busy finding more efficient ways to pay rent and take care of junior to think or give a hoot.
[ December 16, 2006, 04:01 AM: Message edited by: Irami Osei-Frimpong ]
Posted by Snail (Member # 9958) on :
quote: It's because we have a society where making fun of men as fat, lazy, idiot slobs is perfectly okay, but mothers are more off limits. These aren't universal rules by any means, but I still think it's true. Having stupid female characters is funny, but it's also reviled as buying into an untrue stereotype. Having stupid males characters is alright, after all, they're just men. Having stupid HUSBANDS especially is a favorite. Having stupid inept wives is taboo. Mr. Mom being the best example I can think of to prove the point, or the Lifetime movie Mom's on Strike (though that one fairly went back the other way at the end).
I would imagine female comedians to be pretty pissed of that, actually. It robs them of all the best roles.
I don't really watch that much American comedies but I think there are plenty of British ones that mock women and men pretty much equally (and sometimes they mock women more), for example television shows such as Keeping Up Appearances, Smack the Pony, Absolutely Fabulous and Green Wing.
Posted by Friday (Member # 8998) on :
quote:White people are screwing up the World, and they don't care because they are too busy finding more efficient ways to pay rent and take care of junior to think or give a hoot.
This may be true, but the same could be said of many people of just about every other race as well. Trying to pay the rent and taking of junior are not racial issues, they may be cultural issues, but deffinately are not exclusively white pursuits.
Posted by happymann (Member # 9559) on :
I've been to places in asia where a common question with no offense attached was, "what's your race?"
Posted by Irami Osei-Frimpong (Member # 2229) on :
quote:Trying to pay the rent and taking of junior are not racial issues, they may be cultural issues, but deffinately are not exclusively white pursuits.
But the recklessness which with they do it is uniquely white and profitable. In the same way that living piously is not unique to Muslim terrorists, but the recklessness with which they practice religion is unique and destructive.
_____
The great problem is that white American culture is rapaciously productive, and you all have a love affair with things that are productive. If it were a little less productive, or if you'll didn't have a productivity fetish that outstrips your sense of decency, the world would be better. The problem is that American capitalism works. The same reason violence works. And drugs make you feel good.
All three are phenomenological facts. There is no getting around that American Captialism works. Violence works. Drugs work. If you want results, these three will get them for you. Other people have violence problems or drug problems, we produce and consume. You can try to domesticate American capitalism with anti-trust laws and fair trade agreements, violence with stripes and badges, and drugs with prescriptions, all external controls geared to keep the good and take away the bad from these facts of the human condition.
I'm just not sure that this play at muscling forces so primal is the right way to go. Then again, you can call a marriage license the domestication of sex, and that's been working out, kind of.
[ December 16, 2006, 05:00 AM: Message edited by: Irami Osei-Frimpong ]
Posted by Scott R (Member # 567) on :
quote:The great problem is that white American culture is rapaciously productive, and you all have a love affair with things that are productive. If it were a little less productive, or if you'll didn't have a productivity fetish that outstrips your sense of decency, the world would be better.
:snicker:
Well, Irami's lazy, anyway...
:snicker:
quote:Then again, you can call a marriage license the domestication of sex, and that's been working out, kind of.
No-- because historically, sexual pleasure has been available even without domesticity.
I always ask people who have really strong accents where they come from, because I'm interested in other cultures. I'm not going to stop just because someone interprets it as racist. I know my heart, and I don't particularly care what a stranger thinks about my motives.
Posted by imogen (Member # 5485) on :
quote:Originally posted by happymann: I've been to places in asia where a common question with no offense attached was, "what's your race?"
That's very, very different from automatically assuming somone's level of education/intelligence from their race, which I think Syn was talking about.
My take - I think Syn grouped people by race (unfairly) on her initial post. But I still think she has a point, and I cannot believe that members of the majority group cannot conceive that the discriminations they face within that majority group are significantly different than those discriminations minority groups face.
And for what it's worth, I do think any discrimination/stereotyping I face as a white Australian is significantly less than non-white (and particularly indigenous) Australians do.
Posted by Dagonee (Member # 5818) on :
quote:If it were a little less productive, or if you'll didn't have a productivity fetish that outstrips your sense of decency,
Irami, get the hell over yourself. I don't think you know what a sense of decency is. You've certainly shown yourself utterly incapable of recognizing it in others.
I know I'm not the only one who gets tired of being called indecent or immoral by you. But I am the one saying cut it out. Stop doing it.
It's ignorant, it demonstrates intensely shallow thinking, and it's really, really old now.
Posted by ElJay (Member # 6358) on :
quote:Originally posted by Irami Osei-Frimpong:
quote: "That's how good it is to be white. None of you would change places with me -- and I'm rich!... There's a white, one-legged busboy in here right now that won't change places with me. 'He's going 'no, man, I don't wanna switch. I wanna ride this white thing out. See where it takes me.'"
Well, I don't particularly want to be male, or a comic. I think most comics have deep seated emotional issues. I'd trade places with Halle Berry in a heartbeat, though. Posted by Will B (Member # 7931) on :
"Prejudice never goes away. It's just that the list of acceptable targets changes at times." -- a (mangled) quote from OSC
Posted by Synesthesia (Member # 4774) on :
quote:Originally posted by pH:
quote:Originally posted by Javert:
quote:Originally posted by pH: What bothers me is that apparently, racism towards non-whites is a BIG BIG PROBLEM, whereas racism towards whites is rarely even mentioned. It's a really stupid double standard. If you really want to get rid of racism, then stop looking at a racial group as the source of all racism and oppression.
-pH
Having an acceptable prejudice against the group "at the top" (or at least the group perceived to be "at the top") is nothing new.
For example, when was the last time you saw a commercial/tv show/movie where the father knew how to take care of the kids when his wife left him alone?
That doesn't make it RIGHT. There are all kinds of things in commercials/tv shows/movies that I absolutely hate. Like fat man/hot wife. Do not get me started on fat man/hot wife.
-pH
That annoys me as well, I keep watching King of Queens and According to Jim for some reason. It's not that they're fat, it's more THEY'RE SO STUPID! They are so amazingly stupid and the women have to yell at them in every episode about how stupid they are!
Posted by pH (Member # 1350) on :
I hate the stupidity thing, too. But I also hate the fat thing because I really think that's where a great deal of women's attitudes towards themselves/certain men's attitudes towards women come from. The idea that men are allowed to be concerned with their partner's looks whereas women are supposed to be less "shallow" about their partners while still fretting all the time about their personal appearance is repulsive to me and probably does more harm to the development of girls' self-esteem than any damn skinny actress. Because girls learn that you have to be thin and pretty to attract any mate. Even if he's a fat stupid one.
I want to see a hot man/fat, stupid wife tv show/commercial/movie so that I can watch the hilarity everyone else's outrage.
/rant.
-pH
Posted by littlemissattitude (Member # 4514) on :
quote:Originally posted by Lyrhawn: Let's be honest. Men have a giant "kick me" sign on them in our society. You can call them fat and lazy, or stupid and ignorant, or racist and bigoted, or bad, horrible dead beat fathers, but you can't do that to women.
Oh, please. I've been made fun of for being fat all my life, and my being a woman didn't stop anyone from doing that. And you know what, I was made just as much fun of when I lost weight and wasn't that much over what is considered to be "normal" weight as I have been at a more obviously "over" weight. The worst is when some random person comes up and tells me I'm fat, as if they think I don't own a mirror and am too stupid to know that I am larger than some people.
And, just very recently, I ran into someone who I used to go to church with who, when she asked and I told her what I'm doing now, laughed hugely and said, " You have a job?", in utter disbelief. The obvious implication there was that she could not believe that I had gotten up off of my fat, lazy butt and gotten work. And then she got all offended when I asked her what was so unbelievable about me being employed. I mean, it isn't like I've never had a job before, and she knows that very well.
I get treated like I'm stupid fairly often, as well. You know, the slow patient explanations in one and two-syllable words. And then they don't like it when you make it plain that you aren't stupid. One time, for example when, in a group discussion, a guy mentioned the concept of geosynchronous orbit and then looked straight at me and started explaining it to me like I was five years old. I told him I knew what it was; he got angry at me.
Posted by Luet13 (Member # 9274) on :
This is a very interesting conversation. Synesthesia, you brought up a topic that I think about often. I always wish that things could be different in the area of race. To me race is something I don't really notice. If I'm curious about where someone is from, I generally ask: what's your ancestry? Most people aren't offended by that.
I am a Euromutt (meaning I'm a little bit of everything including Hungarian, Czech, French, Welsh, etc.) Being partially Irish, I've gotten the whole Irish drunk thing. Being partially Swedish, I get the whole stupid immitation Swedish accent, and the assumption that I'm just a dumb blond. Being 6'1 with blond hair and blue eyes, in high school history classes when they got to WWII and descriptions of the Aryan nation, the majority African-American classmates would turn and stare at me. And often they'd ask if I was a Nazi.
And you know what? I'm not a Nazi. None of my ancestors were even in America before slavery was outlawed, so I don't consider myself guilty of slave owning either. And technically I'm very mixed race, but because it's all white, that's all anyone can see.
I teach musical theater for an after school program on the west side of Chicago. The high school has a Hispanic majority, and an African American minority. Within the first couple days of the program, as I was trying to get order and focus, I said something to the effect of, "You people need to be quiet." Now, I meant 'you punkass teenagers who won't shut up', by 'you people.' They thought I meant 'you brown people.' Let me just say, I was horrified. It wasn't even how I meant it, but looking back I can see how someone could take it that way. Because of a slip does that make me a racist? No.
Race is something I find very difficult because it seems like whatever you say is wrong and someone somewhere is going to be offended by it.
Posted by Synesthesia (Member # 4774) on :
quote:Originally posted by pH: I hate the stupidity thing, too. But I also hate the fat thing because I really think that's where a great deal of women's attitudes towards themselves/certain men's attitudes towards women come from. The idea that men are allowed to be concerned with their partner's looks whereas women are supposed to be less "shallow" about their partners while still fretting all the time about their personal appearance is repulsive to me and probably does more harm to the development of girls' self-esteem than any damn skinny actress. Because girls learn that you have to be thin and pretty to attract any mate. Even if he's a fat stupid one.
I want to see a hot man/fat, stupid wife tv show/commercial/movie so that I can watch the hilarity everyone else's outrage.
/rant.
-pH
I was just watching one of those shows when the guy's wife got a sexy picture of her made and he showed it to his guy friends and was like, "See? I get to sleep with that, even though I look like this." And in another episode he was like, "Why don't you take the effort to be sexy?" and I wanted to scream at him and say, DUDE, LOOK AT YOU?!?!? I know I'm not all that, but still!!!! The guy's a manatee telling his wife to take the effort? I wanted to force him to hit a gym and hit it hard.
That's stupid, asking a person if they're a Nazi because they got blond hair and blue eyes. And where do people get that dumb blond thing anyway?
Posted by Olivet (Member # 1104) on :
I think the title of this thread is getting a big reaction and being called 'racist' because it implies that a black person would never ask an Asian person where they're from or that an Asian would never casually remark on how articulate a black person is. If something is belittling to another person, it MUST have been spoken by a person with insufficient melanin.
Me, I'm a North American Mutt. My mother, oddly enough, had a peculiar mixture of traits that allowed her to be accepted as "one of us" by black people and white people. She used to refer to herself as "high yellow" (though I'm pretty sure that would be an offensive label to put on another person). Her parents and grandparents were not visibly darker than she was, nor did they have any features that really belong exclusively to one race.
We're German, Prussian, Scotch Irish Protestant, Shawnee and either Malungeon or black.
Personally, I'd like to live in a world where everyone was as racially indestinguishable as my mother or, say, Keanu Reeves.
*Would also be Halle Barry in a heartbeat, or Michelle Yeoh, or Salma Hayek. Oddly, they are all on my informal switch list already Posted by pH (Member # 1350) on :
quote: I don't consider myself guilty of slave owning either.
I'm really glad you and Alcon have mentioned this. I feel the exact same way. I'm Euromutt/Cherokee, but of course only the European part really shows up. I don't go around trying to make people feel guilty about how the white man stole my land. I don't think other people should expect me to feel guilty about slavery. I don't think that Europeans should feel guilty about their governments booting my Protestant ancestors out of their countries either, for that matter.
I had this long spiel typed out with some rant about how I feel about people's attitudes in post-hurricane New Orleans and how they're totally hindering the recovery effort, but then I decided that someone would probably take it the wrong way.
Edit: But I do want to add that the whole racism towards whites vs. towards non-whites thing kind of makes me think of the domestic violence issue. I mean, people rarely talk about domestic violence against men. Why? Because we think that men should be able to protect themselves I guess. Which implies that women CAN'T protect themselves. Which is really kind of sad.
-pH
[ December 16, 2006, 02:10 PM: Message edited by: pH ]
Posted by AvidReader (Member # 6007) on :
My ancestors owned slaves. Would you like me to feel guilty about it?
Posted by pH (Member # 1350) on :
COMMENCE GUILT SEQUENCE IMMEDIATELY!
-pH
Posted by SoaPiNuReYe (Member # 9144) on :
My ancestors were slaves, but I'm not making people feel guilty about it...
Posted by Belle (Member # 2314) on :
I don't think any of mine did in pre-Civil war America (I'm from poor southern stock, none of my known ancestors would have been able to afford slaves they were little more than indentured servants themselves) but I'd be willing to bet somewhere I have an ancestor that did. If we had Tru-Sights and the ability to go spy on all our ancestors I bet there's not one of us posting here who doesn't have ancestors that either owned slaves, or participated in some form or fashion in one type of slave trade somewhere, somewhen simply because slavery was an institution for so long and in so many places in the world.
People have been doing terrible things to each other since there have been people and none of us is descended from perfect people.
Posted by Synesthesia (Member # 4774) on :
quote:Originally posted by AvidReader: My ancestors owned slaves. Would you like me to feel guilty about it?
Not really, as you weren't born yet. I read in Of Inhuman Bondaged how-
Africans sold other tribes into slavery Blacks also owned slaves of their own on rare occasions and native Americans too. Sometimes they might have had a white servant.
Posted by Irami Osei-Frimpong (Member # 2229) on :
quote:I mean, people rarely talk about domestic violence against men. Why? Because we think that men should be able to protect themselves I guess. Which implies that women CAN'T protect themselves.
Ph, the guy is probably bigger. I'm all for domestic violence awareness being skewed towards protecting women, for physical and financial reasons.
It's not about tracing blood ancestors. It's about culture. Americans, as Americans-- especially white Americans-- share a common cultural ancestory that is largely responsible for our economic and moral successes and failures, and it goes back to the Founders. They institutionalized the practice of saying one thing and doing the other in terms of human rights, and we've been picking up the pieces ever since. The American problem of race is uniquely American because throughout the whole business, large sections of our country refused to grasp, either consciously or unconsciously, the gulf between the rhetoric we pietously espoused and the practices we enshired.
The biggest issue race in America highlights is our ability to, from a deep place and broadly diffused by way of democracy, say one thing and do another and not be troubled by it.
[ December 16, 2006, 03:12 PM: Message edited by: Irami Osei-Frimpong ]
Posted by pH (Member # 1350) on :
Yeah, physically the guy is bigger. And? That doesn't change the fact that assuming the guy should be able to protect himself automatically implies that the woman can't. You can't simultaneously empower women and tell them that they're delicate flowers who need more consideration when it comes to one partner hitting the other. That's not equality.
-pH
Posted by Irami Osei-Frimpong (Member # 2229) on :
Women need more consideration when it comes to one partner hitting other. If this violence is spontaneous in origin, the guy can do more damage. Who said anything about equality? And because of gender roles in society, it's easier for a guy to leave an abusive relationship. I'm not talking about equality.
You are invoking a strange relationship when you say, "automatically implies," that I don't think is appropriate. Take what you want, but if we have a finite amount of resources to spend on teaching how to protect yourself from domestic abuse, I am utterly comfortable with 80 percent of that advice being targeted to women.
Posted by pH (Member # 1350) on :
But the fact is, we largely ignore domestic violence against men. And because of that, it makes men more likely to put up with violence directed towards them by their partners. And we make women feel weaker in the same breath. It's not a matter of who can do more physical damage. It's a matter of incorrectly framing the issue. The issue should be violence towards partners, not violence towards women.
-pH
Posted by Synesthesia (Member # 4774) on :
I think that is the case, pH.
Irami, hasn't culture sort of... blended in a way on some levels? Especially the way on several occasions white teens would be interested in aspects of black culture, such as jazz and eventually rock and roll? (not that those artforms are limited to black people...) I think that the cultural lines bluring because of music is what helped push the Civil Rights movement forward in a way.
Posted by Irami Osei-Frimpong (Member # 2229) on :
quote:hasn't culture sort of... blended in a way on some levels? Especially the way on several occasions white teens would be interested in aspects of black culture, such as jazz and eventually rock and roll? (not that those artforms are limited to black people...) I think that the cultural lines bluring because of music is what helped push the Civil Rights movement forward in a way.
It's blended on many of levels, but the foundational ones, the justice of a jury trial, a majority-ruled democracy, the pulling up of selves by bootstraps, that this as land of meritocracy, what merit means, the freedom of individuals, and the harmony of our basic American institutions, looks better or worse, righteous or ignoble, depending on where you are standing and what color you are in a general way, and the reason is because each culture has seen a different aspect of these same beliefs.
Posted by Synesthesia (Member # 4774) on :
I tend to agree and disagree with you at the same time in different degrees... That is hard to type out. This country was founded mostly by Anglo-Saxons Protestants and their sort of rules like, you can only vote if you are a white male that owns land and things like that. Then there were Native Americans, African Americans, all sorts of people to consider. There is a core of people in all cultures who get so threatened by change, but mostly on my mind is whites, the sort of folks who would lynch people and be violent towards them instead of letting them have their rights, this doesn't represent the whole, but it went on in the past, and I can't completely understand it... How people who are parents, who go to church could have behaved in such a way for so long, it doesn't really make any sense. It's painful to talk about these things, and it makes people angry, but it's important to address it so that the future is free of it, things have only been getting better because of addressing it. American culture has improved because of all of this blending, because of the richness of other cultures in the tapestry, hopefully it can only get beter instead of getting worse.....
Posted by pH (Member # 1350) on :
And those Protestants largely came over here because of persecution. It's not like there's a clear-cut villain here.
-pH
Posted by Synesthesia (Member # 4774) on :
True, but then some of the persecuted other people... Folks seem to forget what it's like to be persecuted and why they should not do that to other people, but it's not like there's one group of people who is pure and entirely free of malice and evil.
Posted by Irami Osei-Frimpong (Member # 2229) on :
I don't even think it's about persecution, anymore. It's more of a high-handed neglect.
Posted by pH (Member # 1350) on :
But that's my point. Every group of something has been discriminated against at some point. And every group of something has certain members who discriminate against others.
-pH
Posted by Friday (Member # 8998) on :
Racism against some group or another has been going on in some form or another since at least biblical times, and likely long before that. I would imagine that it has beeng going on ever since prehistoric man was able to make a distinction between an "us" and a "them".
But just because it's been aroung for a while doesn't mean that it's not a Bad Thing.
It would be great if people come to realize that these distinctions are artifacts of human creation, and that, more often than not, there is such similarity and common ground between "us" and "them" that both parties would be better off if the distinction weren't made at all. Unfortunately for a long time racism was, and in many cases it still is, a central aspect of a person's cultural identity, and when racist practices are central to a person's way of life it becomes very hard to change their views.
Posted by pH (Member # 1350) on :
I wasn't saying it wasn't a bad thing. As I've been saying all along, my point is that it's not all coming from one group, and I'm really annoyed that for some reason it's only PC to focus on one group as the source of racism.
-pH
Posted by Lyrhawn (Member # 7039) on :
Irami -
Alright, so white Americans are screwing up the entire world...
Does that make us responsible for whatever India and China do? That's MORE than a third of the world's population, surely they have a role to play.
What about Africa? Why can't they get their act together? If we leave them alone, it's because we're racist and heartless, if we try and help, it's white man's burden racism. And for some reason, they either can't help themselves, or help themselves so slowly that no one seems to notice.
Why the hell is all of that our fault? You're placing an enormous amount of blame on people without much apparently understanding of history, which is amazing for your tone and posts, you act like you know everything.
Posted by pH (Member # 1350) on :
I really want Irami to explain what he thinks black/Asian/Hispanic/Nativa American/Martian culture is, since it's my impression that he believes that the only way anyone can be successful is to be culturally white. So...can you not be a minority in his eyes unless your life sucks by whatever his definition of that is, since if you do well for yourself (however he defines that) you must be culturally white?
-pH
Posted by Irami Osei-Frimpong (Member # 2229) on :
quote:Does that make us responsible for whatever India and China do? That's MORE than a third of the world's population, surely they have a role to play.
What about Africa? Why can't they get their act together? If we leave them alone, it's because we're racist and heartless, if we try and help, it's white man's burden racism. And for some reason, they either can't help themselves, or help themselves so slowly that no one seems to notice.
Why the hell is all of that our fault? You're placing an enormous amount of blame on people without much apparently understanding of history, which is amazing for your tone and posts, you act like you know everything.
Lyrhawn,
These are all live issues. I overspoke when I said the whole world, but if we end up in a nuclear world war, it'll be our fault for not pushing disarmament starting with number one.
As to everything else, I don't know. A lot of the issues you bring up appear to be economic issues, I'm just not sure that they have economic answers.
I don't have a magic bullet, but I think greater thought and care about these issues is a good place to start. My approach would be to start a dialogue with, and take a hard look at, the situation in our more degraded urban and rural areas, and how those communities relate to their wealthier, seemingly more successful counterparts, and once we have a greater understanding of the cultural infelicities which plague places on both sides of the fence, we can check to see how many of, and in what way, our solutions are applicable to different areas. While all the time, of course, taking the individual culture of a place particular place.
And again, it's not so much the white Americans problem, I think the great issue is that we may need to into question the righteousness of our solutions that we are so quick to prescribe.
For example, we are exporting democracy and the rule of law all over the world, at least we are exporting the talk of democracy, the rule of law and public education when I'm not sure that we've worked out the kinks in application at home, especially in a diverse community.
ph, you keep doing your thing, I'll keep doing mine. The twain don't have to meet.
[ December 17, 2006, 11:28 AM: Message edited by: Irami Osei-Frimpong ]
Posted by AvidReader (Member # 6007) on :
My biggest problem with the current PC culture is that it makes people afraid to say anything so they don't accidentally end up labled racists. I have a buddy who got accused of racism when a co-worker heard him mention that he liked to use slavery in Civ 4.
I firmly believe that you can only have sterotypes about people you don't know. Since racism is a value judgement about a race of people, it's a nasty form of sterotyping. To me, the easy answer is to get to know other people. My buddy Dre isn't a black guy, he's my friend who grew up as an Air Force brat in Europe. My buddy Chad isn't hispanic, he's a real estate salesman and really funny gamer.
If we make ourselves more open and less sensative, we'll have an easier time making friends with people who don't look just like us. I think that's the key to killing racism.
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