And do ever consider that there might not be an afterlife?
The thought occurred to me one summer when I was 12 years old. I was looking up at the night sky out of my window as I was about to go to sleep, and somehow my mind made the association of "eternal darkness---->nothingness------>no afterlife!" There was no negation of my religion on my part, just total, overwhelming fear at the possibility of perpetual nothingness as the afterlife.
This went on for a couple of weeks, then the whole thing stopped being an issue as the fear left me. I think that's when I became an agnostic, even if I didn't know it.
[ November 13, 2007, 02:30 PM: Message edited by: the_Somalian ]
Posted by Tatiana (Member # 6776) on :
I believe in the afterlife like I believe in Puerto Rico (to quote a friend of mine). I hope Drive By will forgive me.
Posted by brojack17 (Member # 9189) on :
Yes, because of faith.
Sure. I don't like to take what the person standing at the pulpit says at face value. I prefer to research and come to my own conclusion. I think this makes me naturally curious about the afterlife.
Posted by Samprimary (Member # 8561) on :
The afterlife is either going to be nullity following the organic decomposition of the components that house our memory and personality, or it's going to be something else resembling this mode of consciousness that may or may not sound like it came out of a fairy tale.
Many religious decisions are prompted by that total overwhelming fear at the possibility of perpetual nothingness. We're all hoping for the second possibility because it's way better and cooler and oblivion sucks. It may even be a timeless part of the human condition! But at least the advantage to the first possibility is that if it's true, you won't care once you're dead. It's literally not an issue for you anymore. Cold comfort for possibly being on the fast track to nothingness, right?
Posted by Javert (Member # 3076) on :
Nope.
Posted by pooka (Member # 5003) on :
I was pretty afraid that there might not be an afterlife until last winter (I was 36). But then the last of my grandparents died and I thought about only having one generation between me and the inevitable, and I was cool with it. I actually felt impelled to live my life more meaningfully.
And right around that time, a lot of stuff started happening to distract me.
When my son died, a lot of people told me he would come back and visit me, but I'm kind of okay with that not happening because I'm unstable enough as it is.
Posted by Javert (Member # 3076) on :
I should include that I'm fine with not believing in an afterlife. Posted by cassv746 (Member # 11173) on :
As a Christian I do. I can't wait to be able to live in it either. Posted by BlackBlade (Member # 8376) on :
quote:Originally posted by Javert: I should include that I'm fine with not believing in an afterlife.
As opposed to not being OK with believing in an afterlife? What exactly does that mean; stoicism? If somebody was threatening to kill you, the thought would not even enter your head that you are not OK with dying just yet?
I know this sounds confrontational or snarky, I honestly just want to hear your take.
Posted by pooka (Member # 5003) on :
When I used to be depressed quite often and didn't understand why, I was rather resentful of the knowledge that if I chose to kill myself, I would apparently not be allowed to stop existing.
I suppose I'm glad for that. I'm a much happier sort of person nowadays. I wouldn't credit that one consequence with keeping me going, either. I'm just saying one can believe in the afterlife and not be happy about believing in it.
Posted by Glenn Arnold (Member # 3192) on :
quote:I was rather resentful of the knowledge that if I chose to kill myself, I would apparently not be allowed to stop existing.
To sleep - perchance to dream...
Count me one for no afterlife. Nada.
Posted by Javert (Member # 3076) on :
quote:Originally posted by BlackBlade:
quote:Originally posted by Javert: I should include that I'm fine with not believing in an afterlife.
As opposed to not being OK with believing in an afterlife? What exactly does that mean; stoicism? If somebody was threatening to kill you, the thought would not even enter your head that you are not OK with dying just yet?
I know this sounds confrontational or snarky, I honestly just want to hear your take.
I'm just trying to be specific, as it is completely possible to believe there is no afterlife but still want there to be one and be terribly upset that there isn't.
To say that I'm ok with there not being an afterlife is not the same as saying I'm ok with dying. I don't want to die just yet, and I'd prefer I didn't have to endure a whole lot of pain when it happens.
But the idea of not existing doesn't bother me, as I did it for a long time before I was born. Posted by Lisa (Member # 8384) on :
quote:Originally posted by the_Somalian: If so, why?
Yes. Because Judaism says so. And because I'm convinced enough about other things in Judaism that I'm willing to take this one as a given. But it doesn't matter that much to me.
quote:Originally posted by the_Somalian: And do ever consider that there might not be an afterlife?
Sure. And if there isn't, I won't ever know. I realize that's a bit Pascalian, but there you go. I'm actually more concerned about there being an afterlife than there not being one. I'd much prefer there not to be one.
Posted by Lisa (Member # 8384) on :
quote:Originally posted by pooka: When I used to be depressed quite often and didn't understand why, I was rather resentful of the knowledge that if I chose to kill myself, I would apparently not be allowed to stop existing.
That actually figured in to my not doing so myself. If I was really convinced there was no afterlife, I probably would have shuffled off this mortal coil long ago. Not that I feel that way now, but I have more than once.
Posted by Javert (Member # 3076) on :
quote:Originally posted by Lisa: If I was really convinced there was no afterlife, I probably would have shuffled off this mortal coil long ago. Not that I feel that way now, but I have more than once.
I have honestly never understood this point of view. Would it be rude of me to ask you to explain? (Understanding you don't feel this way now, of course.)
Posted by Omega M. (Member # 7924) on :
quote:Originally posted by Tatiana:
I believe in the afterlife like I believe in Puerto Rico (to quote a friend of mine). I hope Drive By will forgive me.
That is, you haven't been there, but you have enough indirect evidence (e.g., from other people) to believe it's real?
Posted by Chris Bridges (Member # 1138) on :
Nope.
Posted by Javert Hugo (Member # 3980) on :
Yes, I do.
It affects everything, but a few steps back.
I believe we existed before and we'll exist again, so I believe in both a before-life and an after-life. This is life is but a moment in the grand scheme.
Having said that, it's a long subjective moment, and the existence of an after life does not negate the need to do our best to be happy and good and charitable in this one.
[ November 13, 2007, 11:42 AM: Message edited by: Javert Hugo ]
Posted by Shawshank (Member # 8453) on :
quote:
quote:Originally posted by Lisa: If I was really convinced there was no afterlife, I probably would have shuffled off this mortal coil long ago. Not that I feel that way now, but I have more than once.
I have honestly never understood this point of view. Would it be rude of me to ask you to explain? (Understanding you don't feel this way now, of course.)
Now I can't speak for Lisa- but having done the same thing I can respond to your question. If life is terrible now and I want to end it- but the idea I might go to hell if I did, that was reason enough to stop me. This was a point to where I didn't believe in God because it was too difficult but believing in hell was easy enough.
Posted by pooka (Member # 5003) on :
(I'm pretty sure you're missing a "not" toward the end there, JH)
I wanted to end my life because being alive was quite painful and I wanted the pain to stop. It was part genetics and part parents divorcing and part me having tough decisions, and later on some grief. Mostly I blame the devil.
I guess there was a time period where I could convince myself life wasn't painful, but then it seemed pointless. Think about that for a second.
Posted by mr_porteiro_head (Member # 4644) on :
I too am someone whose belief in an afterlife helped keep my suicidal thoughts and desires from materializing into actions.
Posted by sylvrdragon (Member # 3332) on :
I'm gonna have to go with No on this one. I just can't justify believing it. That isn't to say that I don't HOPE for an after-life (who doesn't?), I just can't convince myself logically; consciously.
My understanding of religion is that it exists to simultaneously quell the fear of death while insisting upon civilized behavior (at the threat of losing said afterlife). Obviously this isn't a bad thing (or at least it WASN'T, I personally don't see the need for the second part THESE days, but that's a whole different thread).
The irony of this is that I think I might have a death wish... That's not to say that I'm suicidal, on the off-chance that I'm wrong about the whole heaven or hell thing, but I look at death like a kid looks at presents under a Christmas Tree. I just can't wait to see what's inside! (or 'on the other side', as the case may be) Maybe I read too much Fiction and have taken on the view that 'No fear of Death' = a virtue.
I think these feeling are only conscious and maybe a bit subconscious, but they haven't affected my instincts yet. I still flinch when someone spooks me, and I still get an uncomfortable chill when I walk in dark places at night, or when I hear a strange sound outside my window or something. I don't intend to LET something kill me either, but I think that once it's clear that living isn't an option, I'll likely breath a sigh of relief...
Now that I think about it, I could see myself being that guy that runs into a burning building to get someone out, or attacks the person holding me hostage, or tells someone to leave me behind to save themselves from some random event. Not through any altruism though, but because it would be a perfect excuse...
Hmmm, if I take some psychology classes, I wonder if my professor would let me use myself as the subject of a thesis...
Posted by Javert (Member # 3076) on :
quote:Originally posted by sylvrdragon: That isn't to say that I don't HOPE for an after-life (who doesn't?)
*raises a hand*
I don't.
That is to say, there are specific afterlives that I don't hope for.
Posted by pooka (Member # 5003) on :
Destrudo, or the impulse to death, was proposed along with libido in the work of Freud. I don't understand it very well, but I ran into it a couple of weeks ago.
P.S. *laugh* Yes, I'd have to say I hope not for the afterlives believed in by the majority of people on earth.
Posted by mr_porteiro_head (Member # 4644) on :
I think that everybody has specific afterlives they don't hope for.
Posted by Javert (Member # 3076) on :
Especially when it comes to the religions that say "if you don't believe in this, you go to hell"...because at most, only one of those can be correct.
See one of the early episodes of South Park.
"Welcome to Hell!"
"Wait! I was a devout Catholic!"
"And I was a fundamentalist evangelical!"
"And I was a Buddhist Monk!"
"I'm sorry. The correct answer was Mormon...Mormon."
(Not saying that Mormons believe non-Mormons are going to Hell, of course.)
Posted by pooka (Member # 5003) on :
Jesus had a whole slew of stories to describe the kingdom of heaven. It almost seems to have depended on who he was talking to.
Posted by Javert (Member # 3076) on :
quote:Originally posted by pooka: Jesus had a whole slew of stories to describe the kingdom of heaven. It almost seems to have depended on who he was talking to.
Or whom was writing down the story.
Posted by mr_porteiro_head (Member # 4644) on :
quote:Especially when it comes to the religions that say "if you don't believe in this, you go to hell"...because at most, only one of those can be correct.
Actually, they can all say that and all be correct. It would mean that everybody goes to Hell.
Posted by Saephon (Member # 9623) on :
I don't really know....I'm leaning towards "no", but I still hope that there is a wonderful afterlife of sorts. It may be kind of selfish, but I intend to spend the rest of my life with someone I love absolutely. I still dream that there's a chance of that persisting through death, as well as a chance to love those who are no longer with me and tell them what I never got to say.
Posted by Lisa (Member # 8384) on :
quote:Originally posted by Javert:
quote:Originally posted by sylvrdragon: That isn't to say that I don't HOPE for an after-life (who doesn't?)
*raises a hand*
I don't.
That is to say, there are specific afterlives that I don't hope for.
I don't, period. I think there is one, but if it were up to me, there wouldn't be.
Posted by Lisa (Member # 8384) on :
quote:Originally posted by Shawshank:
quote:
quote:Originally posted by Lisa: If I was really convinced there was no afterlife, I probably would have shuffled off this mortal coil long ago. Not that I feel that way now, but I have more than once.
I have honestly never understood this point of view. Would it be rude of me to ask you to explain? (Understanding you don't feel this way now, of course.)
Now I can't speak for Lisa- but having done the same thing I can respond to your question. If life is terrible now and I want to end it- but the idea I might go to hell if I did, that was reason enough to stop me. This was a point to where I didn't believe in God because it was too difficult but believing in hell was easy enough.
That's close to what I would have said, but without the hell part. Basically... if you want it to end, you want it to end. If things are that bad that you want out, the prospect of just switching one sucky situation for one that might be every bit as sucky, if not worse, isn't a cheery one.
Posted by camus (Member # 8052) on :
Does anyone believe in an afterlife that is not eternal?
If you do believe in an eternal afterlife, do you ever struggle with the idea of finding true meaning and purpose in a never ending existence?
Personally, the thought of eternal existence might make me more suicidal than not.
Posted by Javert (Member # 3076) on :
I think I side with Daniel Dennett on all of this. IIRC he said he'd like to live healthily for a few hundred to a thousand years, but not forever.
Posted by Javert Hugo (Member # 3980) on :
(Also...
"belief" = noun "believe" = verb )
Posted by the_Somalian (Member # 6688) on :
Edited, JH.
Regarding suicide, aren't people who are so down that they see it as the only way out going to take that path regardless of the question of an afterlife? I mean, wouldn't that be a rational consideration in a most irrational state of mind?
Posted by Joldo (Member # 6991) on :
Thinking about the afterlife--both its existence and its abscence--terrifies me.
Posted by Javert (Member # 3076) on :
*hugs Joldo*
Posted by pH (Member # 1350) on :
I don't think it's important. It was hard for me to reach this viewpoint, but it was also absolutely necessary for me to be able to function as a human being. I don't like the carrot vs. stick way of talking to people about religion (do this and go to heaven, do this other thing and you'll go to hell)...so I decided that I shouldn't let it factor into my faith. I think it's important that I try to make sure my faith has nothing to do with simply wanting a reward or wanting to avoid punishment.
-pH
Posted by pooka (Member # 5003) on :
If one is going to postulate that suicide is irrational, perhaps. But we could deconstruct whether suicide is irrational. I wrote more along that vein, but I wouldn't want to nudge anyone who might be depressed with thoughts that are, for me, pretty abstract.
Posted by mr_porteiro_head (Member # 4644) on :
quote:Regarding suicide, aren't people who are so down that they see it as the only way out going to take that path regardless of the question of an afterlife? I mean, wouldn't that be a rational consideration in a most irrational state of mind?
You've already had at least two people in this thread say that that consideration did affect their behavior.
Posted by kmbboots (Member # 8576) on :
And Hamlet.
I believe that there is Something eternal and that we are part of it. How that is realized, is beyond my understanding.
Posted by pooka (Member # 5003) on :
I agree with pH. Belief in an afterlife gave me pause not for fear of punishment, but because I did not believe my painful situation would be helped by a change of venue.
It's very near to something C.S. Lewis says in Mere Christianity about how morality is not "be good, and I'll reward you, if not, I'll do the other thing..." rather Christianity is about our choice whether to be a heavenly creature or a hellish one, at war with God, nature, and (severe paraphrasing) itself.
Posted by twinky (Member # 693) on :
I don't believe that there is an afterlife.
Sometimes I feel like I want to be immortal, other times I feel like one lifetime should be plenty if I use it well.
Posted by pooka (Member # 5003) on :
I'm a little confused, if anyone wants to elaborate, on how not wanting to exist in this life (being suicidal) is different from not wanting to exist eternally.
Posted by Starsnuffer (Member # 8116) on :
I do not. I personally very much like existing, and the thought that I might not, some day, frightens me. I take a little comfort in the idea that through chaos, the universe will continue to flux forever, and in that flux at some point I will exist again as I do now (As any infinitely long period will yield an infinite number of situations). I much prefer the idea of halting death altogether by medicine or nanotechnology, or transferring my consciousness to some more durable frame than my squishy body... (either in my lifetime or through cryonics) (I'm a very hopeful person... or maybe just very concerned about not being)
Posted by Lisa (Member # 8384) on :
That fascinates me. The idea that not existing could frighten someone, I mean. We didn't exist before we were born, and that worked out okay, no? I can't imagine that not existing in the future would be something to be scared of.
Posted by Javert Hugo (Member # 3980) on :
quote:We didn't exist before we were born, and that worked out okay, no?
Statements like this always surprise me, although I know it shouldn't, when it comes from someone who believes in an afterlife.
It seems that an afterlife in general makes a lot more sense if there is a beforelife as well.
Otherwise, don't you have to account for how combining earthly DNA and cellular mitosis somehow creates a soul or an aiua or whatever it is that experiences the afterlife? If not, where does the soul-thingy come from/when is it created?
Is it this that makes the LDS view of abortion not quite as stringent as it would be otherwise? Because while abortion definitely kills a human body, it may/may not take away a spirit's chance at life and it definitely doesn't kill the soul?
For those that believe in souls, do believe in an afterlife, do not believe in a beforelife, and believe that abortion kills a human being, are the fates of the souls of aborted children the same as those who die after being born?
[ November 13, 2007, 04:54 PM: Message edited by: Javert Hugo ]
Posted by Javert (Member # 3076) on :
quote:Originally posted by Lisa: That fascinates me. The idea that not existing could frighten someone, I mean. We didn't exist before we were born, and that worked out okay, no? I can't imagine that not existing in the future would be something to be scared of.
By George, I think you've got it! Posted by dkw (Member # 3264) on :
Is there anybody that believes in souls but does not believe in an afterlife? And if so, what is the "soul" in that belief?
Posted by Javert Hugo (Member # 3980) on :
Whoops - I changed my mind about what I was going to say halfway through the sentence and didn't change the first part of that clause.
The question makes more sense now.
---
For those that believe in souls, do believe in an afterlife, do not believe in a beforelife, and believe that abortion kills a human being, are the fates of the souls of aborted children the same as those who die after being born?
Posted by camus (Member # 8052) on :
quote:Is there anybody that believes in souls but does not believe in an afterlife? And if so, what is the "soul" in that belief?
That is something I also wondered about here. My question had more to do with whether the soul is material or nonmaterial.
I can't say that I believe in a soul (material or nonmaterial), but I do find the concept intriguing, and I think it's something that science could study without invoking God or religion.
Posted by Lisa (Member # 8384) on :
quote:Originally posted by Javert Hugo:
quote:We didn't exist before we were born, and that worked out okay, no?
Statements like this always surprise me, although I know it shouldn't, when it comes from someone who believes in an afterlife.
It seems that an afterlife in general makes a lot more sense if there is a beforelife as well.
Otherwise, don't you have to account for how combining earthly DNA and cellular mitosis somehow creates a soul or an aiua or whatever it is that experiences the afterlife? If not, where does the soul-thingy come from/when is it created?
I don't believe in a before life. I'm quite certain that nothing of me except for whatever divine spark there is that grows into a soul, existed before I came into being physically. At what point that is, I won't hazard a guess. Conception? Forty days after conception? Birth? Thirty days after birth?
I believe that we are beings of self-made soul. God gives us the potential. We fill that potential ourselves, for better or for worse.
In Judaism (some views, anyway), existence is composed of levels of being, starting with God, and getting progressively more veiled from God. The world we know is the bottommost level. But our souls in full cut through all of the levels, going up to a point where we're essentially one with God.
During this life, we are only normally able to perceive this world. Think of it as the soul having windows in each level of existence, but normally, they're all closed except for the ones opening into our world here. Spiritual practices, such as certain forms of meditation (and even dreams, to an extent), can allow one to peek through windows higher up.
When we die, it isn't that our souls go somewhere else. Rather, the windows on this level close, and we start seeing out of higher ones. We don't go to a different world; that part of our souls was always in that higher world. It just becomes the part that we think of as "I".
Is there a parallel of bodies and physicality on that level? Who knows? Who cares? We'll find out eventually.
Posted by Javert Hugo (Member # 3980) on :
Well, I care. I think it's okay to ask questions, even the unanswerable ones.
Posted by Tatiana (Member # 6776) on :
quote:Originally posted by Omega M.:
quote:Originally posted by Tatiana:
I believe in the afterlife like I believe in Puerto Rico (to quote a friend of mine). I hope Drive By will forgive me.
That is, you haven't been there, but you have enough indirect evidence (e.g., from other people) to believe it's real?
Yes. I believe in it that simply and powerfully, I mean. I know it exists, the same as Puerto Rico, though I haven't been there yet either. It's not a hope or a wish or a maybe. It's real.
Posted by Javert (Member # 3076) on :
quote:Originally posted by Tatiana:
quote:Originally posted by Omega M.:
quote:Originally posted by Tatiana:
I believe in the afterlife like I believe in Puerto Rico (to quote a friend of mine). I hope Drive By will forgive me.
That is, you haven't been there, but you have enough indirect evidence (e.g., from other people) to believe it's real?
Yes. I believe in it that simply and powerfully, I mean. I know it exists, the same as Puerto Rico, though I haven't been there yet either. It's not a hope or a wish or a maybe. It's real.
How do you know it?
Posted by aspectre (Member # 2222) on :
"...Chairs exist. But I don't go around believing in them."
[ November 13, 2007, 10:35 PM: Message edited by: aspectre ]
Posted by Starsnuffer (Member # 8116) on :
Hearing these arguments for the soul and how it will take you to the afterlife bring up a fundamental problem with it. Are we assuming that this soul is magic? Or is it energy? Because it's certainly not matter since bodies don't change mass upon death. From my other thread most people seem to think that heaven, hell, what have you, is "somewhere else" not in this universe, so another universe? And when we die our souls(something REAL) is really transferred to this other universe? Similar to the His Dark Materials view of afterlife. I just can't help but wonder what this "soul" is referring to when we toss it around in discussion. (sorry for being a jerk, I just can't believe that my entity is tied up in some magic)
As to fear at oblivion. I suppose that the fact that I once was not also disturbs me. My reasoning goes something like this: I think about myself walking down the street and all of a sudden somebody walks up to me and shoots me in the face. "I" my body, is destroyed. My memories of iguanas as a young kid, of chemistry, of my family, cease to exist as my brain is smashed to pieces. Then I think about what it means to not exist. For me, the world ends at me.... the only thing i have ever known is my perception of the world. with the loss of that there is no longer an I. there is just a world, and no perception. It chills me to think that i will change so profoundly that i will cease to exist........ It's not that I think not existing would be unpleasant... It is just undesirable, and scary to think of yourself not being a player in the world, when you have always been the only constant in your perception of the world. (I hope this confused post makes some sense, to you and me both)
Posted by enochville (Member # 8815) on :
Nope.
Posted by 0Megabyte (Member # 8624) on :
Here's my view:
Cut out part of the brain, and you lose your memories. Part of your memories, or all of it, or whatever.
Based on what evidence is it supposed a person regains any of that memory once they lose more of the brain, as what happens in death?
My personality changes if you mess with my brain. Cut out the right part of my brain, and parts of my personality dissapear entirely. Based upon what evidence is it supposed a person's personality is restored when they lose more of the brain?
My ability to do many things, thinking at the level I can, doing math, metacognating, generally all those human things... those are lost if you cut out the right part of the brain.
Based upon what evidence is it supposed that those things return if a person loses even more of their brain?
These things... all the things that make us ourselves, are tied to the brain. Mess with the brain and, as Prozac or that guy who got a pipe through his brain show, our very selves, our feelings, the kinds of thoughts we hold, the kinds of choices we make, change, a small or a large amount depending on the effect.
All in the brain.
What about losing all the brain, for that, more than anything else, describes death, could possibly make one think that you get any of these things back, when during our life, losing parts of our brains is irreversible?
Sure, our brains can compensate for damage, especially when young... but how does it compensate if there's no brain to do any compensating?
Posted by Lisa (Member # 8384) on :
quote:Originally posted by Starsnuffer: It chills me to think that i will change so profoundly that i will cease to exist........ It's not that I think not existing would be unpleasant... It is just undesirable, and scary to think of yourself not being a player in the world, when you have always been the only constant in your perception of the world. (I hope this confused post makes some sense, to you and me both)
I hear you. I don't really get it, but I think I see what you're saying.
Posted by Eowyn-sama (Member # 11096) on :
quote: Hearing these arguments for the soul and how it will take you to the afterlife bring up a fundamental problem with it. Are we assuming that this soul is magic? Or is it energy? Because it's certainly not matter since bodies don't change mass upon death. From my other thread most people seem to think that heaven, hell, what have you, is "somewhere else" not in this universe, so another universe? And when we die our souls(something REAL) is really transferred to this other universe? Similar to the His Dark Materials view of afterlife. I just can't help but wonder what this "soul" is referring to when we toss it around in discussion. (sorry for being a jerk, I just can't believe that my entity is tied up in some magic)
I'd say the soul is closer to energy than magic, but I also don't think it's any kind of energy we'll be able to detect, any more than we can detect when a fetus becomes a person.
I'd say the soul is made out of the same 'stuff' as God (whether or not you believe in God, it's a decent comparison)--you can't detect it with any physical means because it has no physical basis. It is 'spiritual' which is a class all by itself.
I don't remember enough of His Dark Materials to actually make a comparison, but they did use scientific instruments to see the 'soul particles' right? I'd say that for me that's not what a soul is, but different people and religions have their own views and definitions.
Posted by Starsnuffer (Member # 8116) on :
I meant in the idea that the dead went to a world of darkness, but if they had an interesting story to tell to the tormenters, the harpies, then they were allowed to step through the door to the world of the wheely guys, and so become spread through the universe, and experience the joy of that beautiful world forever.
Posted by Tatiana (Member # 6776) on :
I believe it based on personal experiences that I've had that wouldn't be convincing to tell about but would only be convincing if you experienced them yourself. Far from being delusions or hallucinations, though, they're even REALER than real life. Rather than being a dream, they're more like waking up from the dream that is daily existence.
I am not this body. This body belongs to me. =)
Javert, does that help answer your question?
Posted by Javert (Member # 3076) on :
quote:I believe it based on personal experiences that I've had that wouldn't be convincing to tell about but would only be convincing if you experienced them yourself.
I agree with this statement, 100%.
Posted by Christine (Member # 8594) on :
I *hope* there is an afterlife. I hate to think that death is so final. I can't even imagine what nothingness would be like.
I do have trouble reconciling the brain and the soul. Who are we? What is the essential part that would go on to the afterlife? Would I take my memories, even if disease or accident stole them from me in life?
But when I get too worked up asking myself these questions, I remember how much humans do NOT know, especially about the brain. Just because I can't rationalize it, doesn't mean it's not true.
I have never heard of a version of heaven or hell that rings true to me. Then again, how could a human know what heaven or hell is like? We've never been there and if we do get there, we can't return to share stories.
Of course, one of the problems with most of the versions of heaven I've heard is the same with any paradise -- one man's heaven is another man's hell.
Sometimes it's fun to think and dream about the possibilities, but in the end we'll just have to find out when we get there.
I often envy people with true faith and no doubts. I'll never be able to do that -- my brain isn't wire that way -- but there would be a certain comfort in "knowing" there was something else, even if in the end it didn't turn out to be true. (You'd never know.)
Posted by MightyCow (Member # 9253) on :
I enjoy sleep. I figure, when you die, you're essentially going to sleep for a very long time. I also enjoy being awake, so I'm not looking forward to death, but it isn't the worst thing by a long shot.
Posted by TomDavidson (Member # 124) on :
quote:I can't even imagine what nothingness would be like.
It probably wouldn't be like much.
Posted by Threads (Member # 10863) on :
quote:Originally posted by Christine: I can't even imagine what nothingness would be like.
Sort of like the 13 or 14 billion years before you were born. Death is only scary until you die. Then there is no "you" to speak of.
Posted by Christine (Member # 8594) on :
quote:Originally posted by Threads:
quote:Originally posted by Christine: I can't even imagine what nothingness would be like.
Sort of like the 13 or 14 billion years before you were born. Death is only scary until you die. Then there is no "you" to speak of.
Yeah, well, I don't remember the 13 or 14 billions years before I was born...or the eternity before that, either. So, until I die, I will probably maintain a healthy fear of death.
Posted by 0Megabyte (Member # 8624) on :
"Yeah, well, I don't remember the 13 or 14 billions years before I was born...or the eternity before that, either."
That's the whole point. Of course you don't remember. For there was nothing to remember at all. It was a big, long period of... nothing.
And you'll cease to remember anything after death, too. It's the same thing, only forward in time instead of backward.
If death is the end, that is.
Posted by MattP (Member # 10495) on :
quote:Is there anybody that believes in souls but does not believe in an afterlife? And if so, what is the "soul" in that belief?
The soul is the spiritual element of your creation. It may be an LDS-style "spirit child" of a heavenly father and/or mother, or it may be something that is created de novo from other spiritual processes which do not directly involve a god figure. Perhaps it's a product of the joining of the souls of your mother and your father, just as your physical form is a combination of the physical forms of your parents.
Posted by Christine (Member # 8594) on :
quote:Originally posted by 0Megabyte: "Yeah, well, I don't remember the 13 or 14 billions years before I was born...or the eternity before that, either."
That's the whole point. Of course you don't remember. For there was nothing to remember at all. It was a big, long period of... nothing.
And you'll cease to remember anything after death, too. It's the same thing, only forward in time instead of backward.
If death is the end, that is.
I
How do I know nothing happened before I was born? I can't remember it, but that doesn't mean nothing was there.
But I'm not sure how we got sidetracked here. The only point I was trying to make in my initial post in this topic was that I can't imagine BEING nothing. It's not that I don't know what nothing is...at least on an academic level. (Which may be meaningless in this case.)
[ November 18, 2007, 07:27 PM: Message edited by: Christine ]
Posted by Threads (Member # 10863) on :
quote:Originally posted by MattP:
quote:Is there anybody that believes in souls but does not believe in an afterlife? And if so, what is the "soul" in that belief?
The soul is the spiritual element of your creation. It may be an LDS-style "spirit child" of a heavenly father and/or mother, or it may be something that is created de novo from other spiritual processes which do not directly involve a god figure. Perhaps it's a product of the joining of the souls of your mother and your father, just as your physical form is a combination of the physical forms of your parents.
At what point during the combination of sperm and egg does the soul appear? Doesn't that imply that we can "call" a soul into existence by replicating biological processes?
Posted by MattP (Member # 10495) on :
quote:At what point during the combination of sperm and egg does the soul appear? Doesn't that imply that we can "call" a soul into existence by replicating biological processes?
Beats me. I was just seeing if I could come up with some theologically plausible explanations for a soul that doesn't exist before physical life.
Personally, I doubt very much that there is any such thing as a soul that exists before OR after our mortal lives, but it's apparently easy to come up with theology to explain, well, anything.
Posted by Omega M. (Member # 7924) on :
I haven't read this whole thread, so maybe we've discussed this already, but if the soul is real, could we in principle detect it if we look at the brain at a sufficiently microscopic level? Would we be able to see electrons, quarks, or whatever moving in "rational" patterns?
Posted by Javert (Member # 3076) on :
quote:Originally posted by Omega M.: I haven't read this whole thread, so maybe we've discussed this already, but if the soul is real, could we in principle detect it if we look at the brain at a sufficiently microscopic level? Would we be able to see electrons, quarks, or whatever moving in "rational" patterns?
Even then, I don't know how that would show evidence for a soul. It would be interesting, of course.
The best evidence for a soul or a spirit would be to show that somehow the 'mind' can operate independently of the body.
Posted by Omega M. (Member # 7924) on :
I would think that if we saw particles moving rationally, contrary to what standard physics would say, we'd have circumstantial evidence that some sentient being outside the known universe was moving those particles. This phenomenon could be interpreted in other ways, of course; and it wouldn't say anything about whether that being could exist independently of a brain.
Posted by Javert (Member # 3076) on :
quote:Originally posted by Omega M.: I would think that if we saw particles moving rationally, contrary to what standard physics would say, we'd have circumstantial evidence that some sentient being outside the known universe was moving those particles. This phenomenon could be interpreted in other ways, of course; and it wouldn't say anything about whether that being could exist independently of a brain.
I think that's a rather large jump. If we saw evidence of particles moving rationally it would be evidence of...particles moving rationally. Objects in space move rationally without inserting some sort of sentience from 'outside'.
Posted by dkw (Member # 3264) on :
quote:Originally posted by Omega M.: I would think that if we saw particles moving rationally, contrary to what standard physics would say, we'd have circumstantial evidence that some sentient being outside the known universe was moving those particles. This phenomenon could be interpreted in other ways, of course; and it wouldn't say anything about whether that being could exist independently of a brain.
My first thought would be that the sentience was coming from the brain of which the particles were a part, not some outside force.
Posted by Christine (Member # 8594) on :
Aren't you all assuming that somehow the soul is connected to the mind or the brain?
Posted by Javert (Member # 3076) on :
quote:Originally posted by Christine: Aren't you all assuming that somehow the soul is connected to the mind or the brain?
Well, it depends on what a 'soul' might mean to you. If you are positing that the soul is you, and thus retains your personality and thoughts and sentience, it's completely justified to connect that with a brain. The reason I say that is because when the brain is damaged we see definitive alterations in a person's personality and thought process.
Now, if you think the soul is just some essence that doesn't retain the personality of the person it belongs to, we can't say that it's connected to the brain any more than it might be connected to the spleen.
But since I don't see a way to test for the second kind of soul, all anyone can do is look for evidence of the existence of the first kind.
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