And do ever consider that there might not be an afterlife?
The thought occurred to me one summer when I was 12 years old. I was looking up at the night sky out of my window as I was about to go to sleep, and somehow my mind made the association of "eternal darkness---->nothingness------>no afterlife!" There was no negation of my religion on my part, just total, overwhelming fear at the possibility of perpetual nothingness as the afterlife.
This went on for a couple of weeks, then the whole thing stopped being an issue as the fear left me. I think that's when I became an agnostic, even if I didn't know it.
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I believe in the afterlife like I believe in Puerto Rico (to quote a friend of mine). I hope Drive By will forgive me.
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Sure. I don't like to take what the person standing at the pulpit says at face value. I prefer to research and come to my own conclusion. I think this makes me naturally curious about the afterlife.
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The afterlife is either going to be nullity following the organic decomposition of the components that house our memory and personality, or it's going to be something else resembling this mode of consciousness that may or may not sound like it came out of a fairy tale.
Many religious decisions are prompted by that total overwhelming fear at the possibility of perpetual nothingness. We're all hoping for the second possibility because it's way better and cooler and oblivion sucks. It may even be a timeless part of the human condition! But at least the advantage to the first possibility is that if it's true, you won't care once you're dead. It's literally not an issue for you anymore. Cold comfort for possibly being on the fast track to nothingness, right?
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I was pretty afraid that there might not be an afterlife until last winter (I was 36). But then the last of my grandparents died and I thought about only having one generation between me and the inevitable, and I was cool with it. I actually felt impelled to live my life more meaningfully.
And right around that time, a lot of stuff started happening to distract me.
When my son died, a lot of people told me he would come back and visit me, but I'm kind of okay with that not happening because I'm unstable enough as it is.
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quote:Originally posted by Javert: I should include that I'm fine with not believing in an afterlife.
As opposed to not being OK with believing in an afterlife? What exactly does that mean; stoicism? If somebody was threatening to kill you, the thought would not even enter your head that you are not OK with dying just yet?
I know this sounds confrontational or snarky, I honestly just want to hear your take.
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When I used to be depressed quite often and didn't understand why, I was rather resentful of the knowledge that if I chose to kill myself, I would apparently not be allowed to stop existing.
I suppose I'm glad for that. I'm a much happier sort of person nowadays. I wouldn't credit that one consequence with keeping me going, either. I'm just saying one can believe in the afterlife and not be happy about believing in it.
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quote:Originally posted by Javert: I should include that I'm fine with not believing in an afterlife.
As opposed to not being OK with believing in an afterlife? What exactly does that mean; stoicism? If somebody was threatening to kill you, the thought would not even enter your head that you are not OK with dying just yet?
I know this sounds confrontational or snarky, I honestly just want to hear your take.
I'm just trying to be specific, as it is completely possible to believe there is no afterlife but still want there to be one and be terribly upset that there isn't.
To say that I'm ok with there not being an afterlife is not the same as saying I'm ok with dying. I don't want to die just yet, and I'd prefer I didn't have to endure a whole lot of pain when it happens.
But the idea of not existing doesn't bother me, as I did it for a long time before I was born. Posts: 3852 | Registered: Feb 2002
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quote:Originally posted by the_Somalian: If so, why?
Yes. Because Judaism says so. And because I'm convinced enough about other things in Judaism that I'm willing to take this one as a given. But it doesn't matter that much to me.
quote:Originally posted by the_Somalian: And do ever consider that there might not be an afterlife?
Sure. And if there isn't, I won't ever know. I realize that's a bit Pascalian, but there you go. I'm actually more concerned about there being an afterlife than there not being one. I'd much prefer there not to be one.
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quote:Originally posted by pooka: When I used to be depressed quite often and didn't understand why, I was rather resentful of the knowledge that if I chose to kill myself, I would apparently not be allowed to stop existing.
That actually figured in to my not doing so myself. If I was really convinced there was no afterlife, I probably would have shuffled off this mortal coil long ago. Not that I feel that way now, but I have more than once.
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quote:Originally posted by Lisa: If I was really convinced there was no afterlife, I probably would have shuffled off this mortal coil long ago. Not that I feel that way now, but I have more than once.
I have honestly never understood this point of view. Would it be rude of me to ask you to explain? (Understanding you don't feel this way now, of course.)
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I believe in the afterlife like I believe in Puerto Rico (to quote a friend of mine). I hope Drive By will forgive me.
That is, you haven't been there, but you have enough indirect evidence (e.g., from other people) to believe it's real?
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I believe we existed before and we'll exist again, so I believe in both a before-life and an after-life. This is life is but a moment in the grand scheme.
Having said that, it's a long subjective moment, and the existence of an after life does not negate the need to do our best to be happy and good and charitable in this one.
[ November 13, 2007, 11:42 AM: Message edited by: Javert Hugo ]
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quote:Originally posted by Lisa: If I was really convinced there was no afterlife, I probably would have shuffled off this mortal coil long ago. Not that I feel that way now, but I have more than once.
I have honestly never understood this point of view. Would it be rude of me to ask you to explain? (Understanding you don't feel this way now, of course.)
Now I can't speak for Lisa- but having done the same thing I can respond to your question. If life is terrible now and I want to end it- but the idea I might go to hell if I did, that was reason enough to stop me. This was a point to where I didn't believe in God because it was too difficult but believing in hell was easy enough.
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(I'm pretty sure you're missing a "not" toward the end there, JH)
I wanted to end my life because being alive was quite painful and I wanted the pain to stop. It was part genetics and part parents divorcing and part me having tough decisions, and later on some grief. Mostly I blame the devil.
I guess there was a time period where I could convince myself life wasn't painful, but then it seemed pointless. Think about that for a second.
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I too am someone whose belief in an afterlife helped keep my suicidal thoughts and desires from materializing into actions.
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I'm gonna have to go with No on this one. I just can't justify believing it. That isn't to say that I don't HOPE for an after-life (who doesn't?), I just can't convince myself logically; consciously.
My understanding of religion is that it exists to simultaneously quell the fear of death while insisting upon civilized behavior (at the threat of losing said afterlife). Obviously this isn't a bad thing (or at least it WASN'T, I personally don't see the need for the second part THESE days, but that's a whole different thread).
The irony of this is that I think I might have a death wish... That's not to say that I'm suicidal, on the off-chance that I'm wrong about the whole heaven or hell thing, but I look at death like a kid looks at presents under a Christmas Tree. I just can't wait to see what's inside! (or 'on the other side', as the case may be) Maybe I read too much Fiction and have taken on the view that 'No fear of Death' = a virtue.
I think these feeling are only conscious and maybe a bit subconscious, but they haven't affected my instincts yet. I still flinch when someone spooks me, and I still get an uncomfortable chill when I walk in dark places at night, or when I hear a strange sound outside my window or something. I don't intend to LET something kill me either, but I think that once it's clear that living isn't an option, I'll likely breath a sigh of relief...
Now that I think about it, I could see myself being that guy that runs into a burning building to get someone out, or attacks the person holding me hostage, or tells someone to leave me behind to save themselves from some random event. Not through any altruism though, but because it would be a perfect excuse...
Hmmm, if I take some psychology classes, I wonder if my professor would let me use myself as the subject of a thesis...
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Destrudo, or the impulse to death, was proposed along with libido in the work of Freud. I don't understand it very well, but I ran into it a couple of weeks ago.
P.S. *laugh* Yes, I'd have to say I hope not for the afterlives believed in by the majority of people on earth.
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Especially when it comes to the religions that say "if you don't believe in this, you go to hell"...because at most, only one of those can be correct.
See one of the early episodes of South Park.
"Welcome to Hell!"
"Wait! I was a devout Catholic!"
"And I was a fundamentalist evangelical!"
"And I was a Buddhist Monk!"
"I'm sorry. The correct answer was Mormon...Mormon."
(Not saying that Mormons believe non-Mormons are going to Hell, of course.)
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Jesus had a whole slew of stories to describe the kingdom of heaven. It almost seems to have depended on who he was talking to.
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quote:Originally posted by pooka: Jesus had a whole slew of stories to describe the kingdom of heaven. It almost seems to have depended on who he was talking to.
Or whom was writing down the story.
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quote:Especially when it comes to the religions that say "if you don't believe in this, you go to hell"...because at most, only one of those can be correct.
Actually, they can all say that and all be correct. It would mean that everybody goes to Hell.
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I don't really know....I'm leaning towards "no", but I still hope that there is a wonderful afterlife of sorts. It may be kind of selfish, but I intend to spend the rest of my life with someone I love absolutely. I still dream that there's a chance of that persisting through death, as well as a chance to love those who are no longer with me and tell them what I never got to say.
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quote:Originally posted by Lisa: If I was really convinced there was no afterlife, I probably would have shuffled off this mortal coil long ago. Not that I feel that way now, but I have more than once.
I have honestly never understood this point of view. Would it be rude of me to ask you to explain? (Understanding you don't feel this way now, of course.)
Now I can't speak for Lisa- but having done the same thing I can respond to your question. If life is terrible now and I want to end it- but the idea I might go to hell if I did, that was reason enough to stop me. This was a point to where I didn't believe in God because it was too difficult but believing in hell was easy enough.
That's close to what I would have said, but without the hell part. Basically... if you want it to end, you want it to end. If things are that bad that you want out, the prospect of just switching one sucky situation for one that might be every bit as sucky, if not worse, isn't a cheery one.
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I think I side with Daniel Dennett on all of this. IIRC he said he'd like to live healthily for a few hundred to a thousand years, but not forever.
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Regarding suicide, aren't people who are so down that they see it as the only way out going to take that path regardless of the question of an afterlife? I mean, wouldn't that be a rational consideration in a most irrational state of mind?
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I don't think it's important. It was hard for me to reach this viewpoint, but it was also absolutely necessary for me to be able to function as a human being. I don't like the carrot vs. stick way of talking to people about religion (do this and go to heaven, do this other thing and you'll go to hell)...so I decided that I shouldn't let it factor into my faith. I think it's important that I try to make sure my faith has nothing to do with simply wanting a reward or wanting to avoid punishment.
posted
If one is going to postulate that suicide is irrational, perhaps. But we could deconstruct whether suicide is irrational. I wrote more along that vein, but I wouldn't want to nudge anyone who might be depressed with thoughts that are, for me, pretty abstract.
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quote:Regarding suicide, aren't people who are so down that they see it as the only way out going to take that path regardless of the question of an afterlife? I mean, wouldn't that be a rational consideration in a most irrational state of mind?
You've already had at least two people in this thread say that that consideration did affect their behavior.
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I believe that there is Something eternal and that we are part of it. How that is realized, is beyond my understanding.
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I agree with pH. Belief in an afterlife gave me pause not for fear of punishment, but because I did not believe my painful situation would be helped by a change of venue.
It's very near to something C.S. Lewis says in Mere Christianity about how morality is not "be good, and I'll reward you, if not, I'll do the other thing..." rather Christianity is about our choice whether to be a heavenly creature or a hellish one, at war with God, nature, and (severe paraphrasing) itself.
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I don't believe that there is an afterlife.
Sometimes I feel like I want to be immortal, other times I feel like one lifetime should be plenty if I use it well.
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I'm a little confused, if anyone wants to elaborate, on how not wanting to exist in this life (being suicidal) is different from not wanting to exist eternally.
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I do not. I personally very much like existing, and the thought that I might not, some day, frightens me. I take a little comfort in the idea that through chaos, the universe will continue to flux forever, and in that flux at some point I will exist again as I do now (As any infinitely long period will yield an infinite number of situations). I much prefer the idea of halting death altogether by medicine or nanotechnology, or transferring my consciousness to some more durable frame than my squishy body... (either in my lifetime or through cryonics) (I'm a very hopeful person... or maybe just very concerned about not being)
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That fascinates me. The idea that not existing could frighten someone, I mean. We didn't exist before we were born, and that worked out okay, no? I can't imagine that not existing in the future would be something to be scared of.
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quote:We didn't exist before we were born, and that worked out okay, no?
Statements like this always surprise me, although I know it shouldn't, when it comes from someone who believes in an afterlife.
It seems that an afterlife in general makes a lot more sense if there is a beforelife as well.
Otherwise, don't you have to account for how combining earthly DNA and cellular mitosis somehow creates a soul or an aiua or whatever it is that experiences the afterlife? If not, where does the soul-thingy come from/when is it created?
Is it this that makes the LDS view of abortion not quite as stringent as it would be otherwise? Because while abortion definitely kills a human body, it may/may not take away a spirit's chance at life and it definitely doesn't kill the soul?
For those that believe in souls, do believe in an afterlife, do not believe in a beforelife, and believe that abortion kills a human being, are the fates of the souls of aborted children the same as those who die after being born?
[ November 13, 2007, 04:54 PM: Message edited by: Javert Hugo ]
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quote:Originally posted by Lisa: That fascinates me. The idea that not existing could frighten someone, I mean. We didn't exist before we were born, and that worked out okay, no? I can't imagine that not existing in the future would be something to be scared of.
By George, I think you've got it! Posts: 3852 | Registered: Feb 2002
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Is there anybody that believes in souls but does not believe in an afterlife? And if so, what is the "soul" in that belief?
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