posted
Im not entirely sure whether this should be posted here or in the forum about American culture, but the thought stems from one of OSC's books so I thought it could go here.
Ive just been reading "Seventh Son" the first book in The Tales of Alvin Maker. I was reading the part where Taleswapper is telling Alvin about Ben Franklin's greatest achievement which was to "make" Americans. He says that by having a name which they can all call themselves it unites them where as before when they called themselves Philadelphians or Red men or Yankees etc. they were just dividing themselves and creating barriers.
Now im not an American so Im just coming at this from an "isnt that interesting" standpoint. But it seems to me that Americans today are undoing Ben Franklin's greatest achievement by dividing with their own labels for themselves. Instead of just all being Americans, there are African-Americans and Italian-Americans etc.
Isnt this a divisive habit that Americans have formed or does anyone think that it is necessary and serves some purpose?
posted
There is no purpose to the divisions. Americans have for one reason or another decided that though we are all Americans we must divide ourselves. It is foolish and creates nothing but hatred towards each other.
I refer to myself as an American and even go so far as to circle other on paperwork. I do not consider myself Irish or Italian, though my ancesters may have come from such places. I was born in this country, thus I am an American.
Pride seperates us and keeps us at odds with one another. Pride is our greatest enemy as it destroys peace and creates these divisions.
But such is the nature of mankind. We unite only against a greater threat, elsewise we surivive alone, working together only when the need exists. These divisions exist worldwide, not just in America, though no doubt the Americans are the most arrogant of all.
Though I am not sure if I have answered your question entirely, I have tried my best to explain.
Johivin Ryson.
Those who watch rarely speak up. Those who speak rarely hear all. But those who listen see all there is.
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but I really wasnt looking for an explanation I just wondered whether anyone else had any thoughts on the matter
Also Im from the UK and I suppose that we also have seperations eg England, Scotland, Wales and N Ireland but they are seperate countries. We also have a divide between North and South or rather Londoners and the rest of England. But thats neither here nor there and ive gone off on a tangent.
I see the Labels used in America not as an intentional way to divide but rather as an attempt to right wrongs that just got out of hand (OSC would call it Political Correctness i bet you)
For example the black people in America were badly treated for a long time and now people (not going to give an opinion as to who) are trying to give them an identity back, a title. Calling them African-Americans was maybe intended to give dignity and a place. And then because one group had a new name everyone had to have one the Italian-Americans and the Irish-Americans and the Latin-Americans... They just didnt know where to stop so instead of having one group given more national identity you end up with a lessing of the whole American national identity
posted
I truly do not believe that it was an attempt to right past wrongs, but was and is an attempt to seperate the masses. If the true reason was to right wrongs, one would find another way other than renaming the American people.
More likely than not, it was a reason to seperate people to keep some people down and raise others up. Ex. To allow some advantages due to heritage. Though there is a slight chance that you are correct in the past wrongs.
A "minority" individual has better chances and more opportunities in the United States these days than those of European decent. Perhaps to make up, perhaps because of the belief that those in the "minority" are still being treated unfairly.
Whether or not the origin lies in the desire to divide, this idea has done just that. The people of the United States look back upon their heritages and find reasons why society is against them. Day in and day out we hear tales of groups trying to receive payments for past transgressions against their "culture".
The people of the U.S. have no national identity. They lost it during the mass immigrations. The only time the Americans are ever united, is when there is an opponent so great that they cannot avoid joining forces.
The United States is a house divided, leaning upon itself until a time when it will crumble and fall. The hatreds run to deep to ever be forgotten. America will fall though I pray it not happen in my lifetime.
Johivin Ryson
Those who watch rarely speak up. Those who speak rarely hear all. But those who listen see all there is.
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posted
Johi-you make a lot of assertions unsupported, claim a lot of things that, frankly, I disagree with.
Yes, there are African Americans and Italian Americans and a thousand other hyphenated americans. But note that they still claim and are as equally as proud of the American as they are of whatever descent they put in front of it.
This was started back in more racist times, when being an American was mostly a White Protestant Male thing. All the hero's in the movies, all the hero's on the news, any one who was glorified as "an American" was a White Male Protestant. If they were Jewish, or Black or female, that was brought out. "Today Jesse Owens, a black man, won gold at the Olympics." He couldn't have been Jesse Owens the American.
So people who are proud of both thier heritage and their American-ness use a hyphenated term to describe themselves.
Big deal.
It will do a lot less to tear this country apart than calling other people by names missing the American trailer.
Can you be a Liberal-American and still believe in the nobleness of our history? Can you be a Conservative-American and still believe in the freedoms this country enshrines, are good for everyone? We don't use those hyphenations. We want to believe that our political enemies are un-american, just as racists in the past wanted to believe that ex-slaves, or Italians, or Indians were not real Americans either.
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posted
No matter what nationality I am, makes no difference to me. If we wish to give the economically disadvantaged support and the like, I can agree wholeheartedly with that.
However, it is unacceptable to give individuals advantages based on what nationality they are. Does an upper class minority individual deserve the same benefits as a lower economic class minority individual? In my opinion, those of lower economic standings need more help to survive than those of the upper class.
Ancestry should play no part in this situation, and yet we see time and time again that these things play a part.
Why am I not a native American? I was born and raised on American soil, and yet I cannot call myself a native American beause my ancestry says elsewise.
Dan, I would prefer that you disagree so that I can better my arguments. There are many sides to the same story and I agree that in the past, fools have put forth ignorant viewpoints and perhaps that was the reason for the prideful titles. Unsupported opinions you may call my views, and yet, on whose opinions shall I call upon. History is written by the victor, this all should know. Shall I take the viewpoint of the victor, using their so-called facts to justify my argument?
Can you deny that men have used these terms to justify their hatreds? But I can agree with you that many of these people are proud to be Americans. I say many, for all would be illogical.
Perhaps it is that we have not evolved past the necessity of these titles. I had hoped otherwise. We see in Europe the desire to rid themselves of their differences, through the formation of the EU and the unification of their currency under the euro. This is the first step, in an attempt to declare the people, not as German, French, etc., but as Europeans.
Perhaps we still need the titles, if that is so, then I will withdraw my views and apologize for the intrusion.
Johivin Ryson
Those who watch rarely speak up. Those who speak rarely hear all. But those who listen see all there is.
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quote:The people of the U.S. have no national identity. They lost it during the mass immigrations. The only time the Americans are ever united, is when there is an opponent so great that they cannot avoid joining forces.
The United States is a house divided, leaning upon itself until a time when it will crumble and fall. The hatreds run to deep to ever be forgotten. America will fall though I pray it not happen in my lifetime.
America will fall, riiiiight. What are you basing this off of? The arguments we all have amongst ourselves about politics? Or religion? what? America is so far away from falling that this idea is just crazy.
you also said
quote: We see in Europe the desire to rid themselves of their differences, through the formation of the EU and the unification of their currency under the euro.
The EU was not created out of an attempt to rid themselves of differences. It was created to form a stronger economy in Europe, a more stable monetary unit. Not so Europe can unify culturally. Europe has just as many internal problems as America.
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quote:America will fall, riiiiight. What are you basing this off of? The arguments we all have amongst ourselves about politics? Or religion? what? America is so far away from falling that this idea is just crazy.
Sure the US will fall. Not for the reasons that Johivin puts forth, but inevitably, it will fall. How could it do anything other than eventually die?
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quote:However, it is unacceptable to give individuals advantages based on what nationality they are. Does an upper class minority individual deserve the same benefits as a lower economic class minority individual? In my opinion, those of lower economic standings need more help to survive than those of the upper class.
Ancestry should play no part in this situation, and yet we see time and time again that these things play a part.
Johivin have you not noticed that the majority, the VAST majority, of black people in America are underpriviledged. And that trying to give them benefits based on their ethnic group is almost the same as giving a "lower economic class" aid.
Your missing the reason why black people are given more help. It isnt because they are black it is because they generally need more economic help.
America is not giving unconditional charity to them, it is trying to help them get out of the depression that has become part of their culture.
I dont think that ive said this perfectly and im even a bit worried that it sounds patronizing but that really isnt my intent
It may be true that the VAST majority of 'black people' in the United States are underprivledged, yet does that mean that all deserve the same added privledges? If a majority of any people are dirt poor, should all people receive the same benefits? I say this only because, if it truly is an economic issue, why make it a nationality issue?
I am an American who falls under the category of "white" or Caucasian, although my family is neither. We are a tan color if any , and we are not from the Caucasus.
To Promethius:
Those who seperate themselves from each other as some point must fight for their beliefs. If you wish examples, shall I suggest the American Civil War, or perhaps most wars in general. They are battles of religion, politics, and even social issues. And no, the squabbles we have amongst ourselves will not lead to the downfall, that is correct. Yet you clearly have no view of the government structure. The clear fact that it is run by interest groups of every shape and size. The only reason a major conflict has not existed, is due to the fact that these groups have never found an advantage over another. Do you believe that if a member of the KKK were to take power that there would not be great strife? Or do you know nothing about U.S. history? I mean this not to offend, but to try to make you understand that the fall will not be quick, but a gradual event. A quick fall would only result from invasion as is the nature of nations.
As to your foolish response about the EU. Any person who has a vague understanding of economics would know that to unite a people you must unite them economically. When people find a common link, a common goal, they unite, and what better way to unite a people than through their economic systems. It is a gradual work that has started, and I remind you that nations go to war, countries go to war, but not individuals. Would you kill a man upon whom your life depends? Would you cut off your own foot?
Johivin Ryson
Those who watch rarely speak up. Those who speak rarely hear all. But those who listen see all there is.
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quote: I mean this not to offend, but to try to make you understand that the fall will not be quick, but a gradual event. A quick fall would only result from invasion as is the nature of nations.
Your previous posts led me to believe that you thought the U.S. was going to have a quick fall relatively soon. So I think we may have had a bit of a misundersanding there. I would have to agree with you that it will be a slow fall. Your post about the EU got me a little pissed because I have noticed alot of people saying that we should do things more like Europe, and how Europe does everything so much better. Some Americans fascination with the European way and their inability to see the fault of it frustrates me.
quote:As to your foolish response about the EU. Any person who has a vague understanding of economics would know that to unite a people you must unite them economically.
Any person who has a vague understanding of Europe knows that they are nowhere close to being truly united. Just look at the problems different ethnic groups in America have with each other. Most Americans think of themselves as Americans, not as Californians, Marylanders, Floridians, or whatever state they are from. They are Americans first.(Although this wasnt always so. Like in the Civil war when Lee thought of himself as a Virginian.) I fear that Europe may never attain this unity. I hope I'm wrong about this. If we havent stopped thinking of ourselves as Italian, German, or whatever given nationality when we dont even live in that country anymore do you think the EU has any chance of accomplishing this with its people?
It bugs me that I am arguing with you over these things, because after reading your following posts I get the feeling that we would agree on a number of social and economic issues.
Although your post did really get me thinking about world events that are occurring right now and how they could lead to a larger scale war or problem. How much would it take to provoke the world enough to act against us? Is that even possible to do? Right now would any country or coalition of countries dare attack us?
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posted
whatever happened to the idea that you EARN what you get in life, as opposed to having it handed to you becuase of the color of your skin, or what your grandparents did? If we're labeling, then I'm an Irish Texan. Ultimately, I'm just Gryph. Does it matter what color I am? I think that affirmative action, while a well-intentioned idea when it began, has become a crutch. No one DESERVES anything - you get what you have because you work for it. Life is a privelege - anything else is gravy.
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posted
I think that the unification that OSC credits Franklin with is a geographical one. There are always distinctions within a group of people, whether we wish them to be or not. Sometimes they are economic othertimes it is a more visible distinction like race.
What's more important to America is that even though I live in Seattle I was heartbroken to find out that a building in New York, which I've never visited, had had a plane flown into it.
There isn't the same sense of personal attack when you hear about it happening elsewhere in the world. Even on this continent a terrorist attack in Mexico or Canada would provoke sympathy and aid, but not the emotional trauma that 9-11 did through out our country.
When America was started we had the confederation of states, each state was a country of its own capable of making all its own laws, money, tarifs, etc. It wasn't until after the constitution that, and maybe westward expansion aided this, people stopped thinking of themselves primarily as Pennsylvanians or New Yorkers.
When we made a strong federal government we became America. It is every bit as important to me what happens in Kansas as what happens in Portland, Oregon. That's the true sense of national identity.
The divisions that you mention don't diminish this unity. A key principle of America is individualism, and a part of that is the culture that our families have brought with them from wherever they came from. America is often called the melting pot, or at least that's how it likes to think of itself, and we've tried to blend in as many different cultures as we can to get our current culture.
By right we ought to appreciate the differences we have and use them to enrich our current culture, but there are always some reluctant to change, and some that view differences with too much prejudice.
Overall, though, these distinctions and divisions have strengthened America. We don't ask people to leave behind their heritage or themselves, we ask them to add something. To become an American as well as be whatever else they are.
The only way ethnic divisions could really divide America is if one area received a massive influx of immigrants from one are, and the rest of the country didn't. The culture that blended in that area would be very diverse from that of the rest of the country, and could eventually lead to the break up of America.
We see a lot of this in the South. They have a very distinct accent and customs that are different from much of the rest of the country. Most of the immigrants that shaped these difference came two hundred years ago, so it is more likely that the difference will mitigate a bit more as the country continues to be more mobile.
Overall the cultural divisions within our country are beneficiary and the labels provide people with an enriched sense of heritage. America is not weakened by it, unless we allow these distinctions to overshadow our commonality, that we are all Americans.
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posted
We shouldn't be divided to begin with. I don't think nationality plays a big of part in division as your views on issues do, at least from what I've seen. I think there are more Liberals who hate Conservatives and Conservatives who hate Liberals then there are people who are just outright racist.
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quote:Johivin have you not noticed that the majority, the VAST majority, of black people in America are underpriviledged. And that trying to give them benefits based on their ethnic group is almost the same as giving a "lower economic class" aid.
Excuse me? What world do you live in? Can you back this up with anything other than your own assertions of "that's how it sounds from the newspaper/tv/whatever?"
"Black America" is one of the 10 wealthiest "nations" on earth. Yes, compared to "White America" it's less, but when compared to the world as a whole. . . . So to assert that the vast majority of blacks are underprivileged (when the National Urban League, which as an advocacy group for blacks is likely to inflate numbers, puts the number of blacks in what America defines as poverty at 30% -- well below a majority, much less a "vast" one) is really quite ridiculous.
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posted
I believe Magson's point is that black Americans, no matter how bad they have it compared to Americans who aren't black, are better off than, say, people forced to suck the bones of malaria-infested rats in other countries. And they should be grateful for this, and not expect any more.
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posted
Hey, Sorry bout the lateness of this post. Life interferes. Que Sera Sera.
Promethius, It all depends upon what we do to provoke the world. The government of the United States has done nothing to ease the pains that it has caused. When your policy includes the idea that we can and will attack 'terrorist' nations whenever and wherever, it now depends upon which nation we choose to invade next; and invasion is the true term for what happened in Iraq and Afghanistan. This was not about terrorism, but of family vendettas.
The question isn't if the dagger will fall, only when and where. Will it fall upon our 'enemies', a term I use loosely, or will it fall upon our own hand, drawing our own blood in this insane crusade.
How easy did many people fall under the belief that there were 'weapons of mass destruction' in Iraq? How quickly did they take up the position that despite any opposition to the war, we should support the troops. Foolish are those that say that by opposing the war we do not support our troops. It would be better to say that we wish those who fight to be safe. Bring our children home and quit this foolish quest.
Were the President to declare another country as a harborer of 'terrorism', how easily will the people be swayed. March a few men in front of the cameras, torture them until they swear that they are terrorists, and you've now justified yet another war to the American public.
A time will come when the world will say No More!. This quest for 'safety' has made us hated by many nations, feared by still many more. How will they know if they themselves are the next target? Saddam Hussein insisted he had no W.M.D., yet he was subdued. No weapons were ever found. The power they have been granted is great. To make your country xenophobic has great promise. This all who lead nations know.
But what shall we do, knowing what we know? Do we have the power to subdue the monster of our own creation? Only the electoral college can decide.
Johivin Ryson
Those who watch rarely speak up. Those who speak rarely hear all. But those who listen see all there is.
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posted
I believe that America was never really united. The USA of my youth found me the only one of Hungarian/French blood in an Irish neighborhood. A few blocks away was an Italian neighborhood. A little further out were neighborhoods of people of different races. There was a time when a negro child couldn't even use a white person's bathroom or water fountain. We hold union as an ideal - and eventually all the groups are/will be part of that united thing. I believe that united is a process. Perhaps we should have been called the Uniting States I must also note that America was hated before this current "war" in Iraq. The events of September 11 were preceeded by an attack on the Cole - and other hijackings. America IS hated simply for being America. I am amazed (as an American) that we can be hated as individuals for mistakes made by diplomats who are long dead. And I am amazed that much of this hatred is done in the name of God. Even though I am an old woman of limited means who has done little more than partaking in nursing and music and family life, I know I am hated. Even though I worship God in my a church that teaches us all to love one another, I know that I am hated. Even though (especially in the course of my professional life) I have risked my health in the service of others, I know I am hated. Why all this hatred? I read the words of hatred here. Do I agree with this war? I don't know. I really don't understand why it happened. I also do not understand why 4 commercial jet liners containing civilains were hijacked and all aboard murdered. I do not know why thousands of innocent civilians were murdered as they went about the task of trying to make a living. Do I love my country? Of course. I love America the way I love my parents. I am a child of this land. Do I think America is perfect? Of course not. No country is. I ask myself, however, if our imperfections are so grevious a crime that our men, women and children deserve to die. Lastly, I had thought that the children of Islam were also children of the Book. We all read the commands given to Moses - and one of them still reads "Do not kill." It would be really nice if all the children of the Book could agree on this point alone.
It is true that we are hated by many peoples throughout the world, yet these hatreds were of our own creation. These people did not wake up one day and decide that they no longer liked America. Many great evils have been inflicted by this country in the name of 'God' upon the rest of the world.
It is not that the individuals are hated for their actions upon these countries, but rather their inactions. You say you do not know whether you agree with a war that is committing many murders on a daily basis, but you have justified the war by comparing it with the hijackings. You ignore the wars raged by America that led to these vicious assaults upon our nation. These were not unprovoked attacks. This was revenge as is the case with all hatred and war. As was 9/11 and even this war with Iraq.
But because 'American' lives were lost, these attacks upon the people of the Iraqi nation are justified. But I ask, was Iraq responsible for September 11th? Why must the Iraqi people suffer for other's actions? Should those who fought in defense of their country be imprisoned and brutally tortured for self-defense?
Though I am sure you mean well, you see only from a single side and cannot see any other side. You say that Islam is wrong by not following 'the Book' yet all who deal in war and hatred have strayed from the path; be they of any religion.
I would ask what 'service' you do that is for others? For we all work for each other to make the society work.
It is not that we should be upset that others do not follow the 'Book' as it was written, but rather that we should work with all mankind to stop hatred in its early forms. If we can stop hatred and vengence, then the world would be a better place. But this relies too much upon altering human nature. So what can we do? To this I have no answer, only ideas.
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