posted
As someone who was raised Christian, I always knew why -we- specificaly did not participate in animal sacrifices. But I never understood why practicing Jews stopped.
Now I think I may understand - I've been doing an intensive read of the Hebrew Scriptures lately, and upon reading Ezra-Nehemiah and the accounts of the rebuilding of the Temple and the exile, I though I understood it - unlike in the pre-Mosaic patriarchal period, Temple-era sacrifices were highly regulated - not just anyone could fulfill the ordinance. While the everyday folk would provide the item (animal, grain, etc), the Levites would do the actual sacrificial deed in a very specific prescribed way. And once the Jews were taken away from their Temple, there was no way for the sacrifice requirements to be made. This was really pounded into me upon reading about the era of the Maccabean rebellion, and the re-Dedication of the temple and the resumption of sacrifices at that point.
Which brings me to the question: I know that there is currently no Temple in Jerusalem (hence the Dome of the Rock). But if one were to be rebuilt - would the Sacrificial Ordinance be reinstated? And if so, how would it be decided who performed the ordinances since, as far as I understand, tracing one's roots back to Levi (or even Aaron) wouldn't be the easiest thing in the world to do.
Just something I've been wondering as my readings have continued, and I'd love to hear what Jewish thought there may be on the issue.
quote: And if so, how would it be decided who performed the ordinances since, as far as I understand, tracing one's roots back to Levi (or even Aaron) wouldn't be the easiest thing in the world to do.
Actually, we have always kept very close track of lineage. Jews can be either Kohanim (direct descendants of Aaron), Levites (descendants of the tribe of Levi), or Israelites. These lines are strictly patrilineal - my mother is a Kohein, but I have no designation because my father is Gentile. There has been genetic research into these lines - http://www.aish.com/societywork/sciencenature/the_cohanim_-_dna_connection.asp.
As to your main question, I have no idea. Sorry.
quote: I've been doing an intensive read of the Hebrew Scriptures lately
Why, if you don't mind my asking?
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posted
Thanks to all who've replied. Your answers are very appreciated.
Mrs.M: Because the faith of which I'm a part is inseperable at it's roots from Judaism. While I fully realize that most practicing Jews regard Christianity as a non-just-slightly heretical offshoot of Judaism (much, in a way, as many Orthodox Christians view Mormonism - but that's another topic completely), it is undeniable (well, at least to me)that without Judaism and the Hebrew Scriptures, that the 'New Testament' and Christianity in general would have a distinct lack of basis.
And I think knowing one's history is important. I am also fascinated with the development of doctrine and theology.
Which brings me to a few other questions concerning Jewish thought:
What are the thoughts concerning angelic beings? I know that Christianity has extended theology concerning them, but I was wondering as to the Jewish school of thought. I've also been reading some Pseudepigrypha and Apocrypha of the era, (Book of Enoch, etc) and wonder how much they would accurately display the Jewish thought in the era. - Demonology as well.
Also: what is the current thought on afterlife? In reading the Pentateuch and the Historical Books, and even many of the psalms - the Belief in Sheol being the ultimate resting place is repeated again and again, hence the major emphasis on restitution in this life (the wicked will be destroyed, the good rewarded) - but then reading Job and some of the Wisdom literature, we see a change in thought, because as Job points out, not only the wicked are given grief, and not only the good are let to live long and peaceful lives. The thought of meeting up with God in the afterlife is briefly brought up. Perhaps the idea of a post-earth Restitution is considered as well.
Now, in the New Testament era, I know there was already a chasm of thought on the subjects, especially between the Pharasees and Sadducees (I believe, correct me if I'm mistaken - and I forget at the moment which held which train of thought), one of which believed in a Resurrection, one of which vehemently denied it. And then there were the Essenes, who had their own train of thought.
So the question is, is the train of thought still divided today, or is there a generally accepted view?
Also, being not extensively familiar with modern Judaism, what other texts would you consider I read for my own education? I know of references to Midrash and Talmud, but I'm not exactly sure where to start. If there are ready available to purchase editions of those you think I'd have value in checking out, an Amazon link would be very appreciated!
posted
Hi, I'm new to the forum, but this topic is really interesting. As far as I know the Jews, those that were left, got together around 90 A.D. and decided that Animal sacrifice wasn't neccessary, I mean the Rabbis decided it.
Have you tried the Dead Sea Scrolls, they were written by the Essenes as far as I know so that might help out there.
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posted
Mrs.M - Thanks for that link about the genealogy - I had no clue that there were still those who claimed Levitical and Aaronic history through genealogy. Very interesting!
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First of all, if a guy says he is a Kohen or a Levi, then he's a Kohen or Levi. This isn't something most self-respecting Jews would lie about.
And yes if/when the Messiah arrives, I've been taught that we will bring the animal sacrifices. Here's why...there's a certain part of the daily prayers called Shmona Esrei. It is the most important part of prayer. It's name is the Hebrew term for "Nineteen" because there are 19 key blessings, created by the Rabbis, within this prayer. A 20th, slightly less important one was added later. Anyways, this Shmona Esrei is a substitution/commemoration of the Temple Offerings. This is according to Talmudic sources, which not all Jews take seriously. So if you take these Talmudic sources seriously, then there will be offerings when the Temple is rebuilt. Personally, I have no clue-what I will do when the Messiah comes, if I even believe that he is coming or want him to come, and when to take the Talmud seriously if I wish to at all.
Well, maybe that will be enough to tide you over until Kayla gets back. This was all off the top of my head, but I'm pretty certain that I have been taught it all...a lot.
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quote: she's pretty much an encyclopedia of Hebrew tradition and history
Yikes, Ralphie, you don't give me much to live up to, do you?
Ok, I will do my best.
The first thing that I should clarify is that on philosophical matters, there is rarely one official Jewish party line. Jews have a tradition of debate that goes back a long long way. Some of these debates have been settled; many have a "majority opinion" which is general held, but also a "minority opinion"; and then there are the really fun ones, which have no resolution -- in at least two cases, the "resolution" that is reached in the Gemara is "we'll ask Eliyahu (Elijah) when he ushers in Moshiach (the Messiah)."
[There are some very basic tenets that are absolutely agreed upon, codified by (among others) the Rambam (Maimonides).]
Angels. We believe they exist, definitely. Three cam to visit Avraham (Abraham), one stopped Bilam's (Balaam) donkey, they appeared to various other biblical figures. There are different kinds of angels (8 levels? 11? I think I've heard both) -- but what that means is unclear (at least to me ).
They are a separate creation from man, and do not have free will. The word for angel in Hebrew is "malach" -- from the root "to be sent" -- so the best translation is probably "messenger." They are named according to their task, and can only have one job at a time -- no multitasking. (For example, an angel who is sent to heal would be called Rephael -- refuah is healing/medicine.) Other details are more debated -- here's a cute site that has some examples.
I know very little about demonology, but the works of Isaac Bashevis Singer are a good source for a lot of the mythology (not so much beliefs, per se, but stories that the "common people" tell.) I can try to find a good source, if you like.
If I were to be interested in looking into the Talmud, is there a good 'starting place'? (I've only seen two english editions of the complete set - the Steinsaltz set (the only ones I saw at Amazon, and the set wasn't completely available), and the one offered at Artscroll (which, while very nifty looking, at $45 a volume could get immensely pricey). I would think such an important resource would be made a bit more available - or am I just looking in the wrong places? I even checked JPS (I own one of their Tanakh translations), and didn't see any Talmud editions offered by them.
As for the Angels - I believe that the only angels mentioned by name in the Tanakh are Michael and Gabriel - I didn't know if the names of angels appearing in Apocryphal and Pseudopigraphal texts (Raphael, Uriel, etc) were actually accepted or not in Judaism. Are those other names appearing in the Talmud or Midrash? I'm wondering what the source of the 'traditional angelic names' (as in those in the listing of the archangels in The Book of Enoch) originally was. Very interesting.
posted
A nice set of Gemaras -- just in Hebrew -- will run you a few hundred bucks and fill at least a shelf . . . and the English translations tend to be far wordier (and have the Hebrew as well). So yeah, they tend to be quite expensive. They are available on CD-ROM as well, but I don't think they are significantly cheaper that way.
I don't actually know where the angel names are mentioned. No one told me there was going to be a quiz! Posts: 32919 | Registered: Mar 2003
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posted
Wasn't there a second jewish temple at Alexandria? I realize the Saduccees(sp?) were very keen about keeping the power centered around the Jerusalem temple and its mystic qualities and nature, but didn't the second temple work to decetralize that aspect of the religion at all?
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quote: Do every (or at least most) Jewish families own a full set of the Talmud?
If they are Orthodox, most likely at least one. Other households -- well, I haven't done a survey . . .
Duragon, I'm not sure what you are refering to. There was a large synagogue in Alexandria, but there has never been a Temple anywhere but in Jerusalem, on the Temple Mount.
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posted
No, the synagogues for the most part post date the Saduccees' control. When I took a Middle Eastern History class covering 0 to 200 CE, there was mention of a second jewish temple constructed in Alexandria, after which for a short time the second temple was upheld by some local jews as the correct temple or as a coexisting temple that could be operated in the same capacity and function.
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posted
The best way to learn about the Talmud is to join a weekly Talmud-study group, if there is one in your area. They usually will have copies of the applicable text available for people who can't afford to buy their own. And, at least in the groups I've been to, there is no attempt to convert you or make you believe, because half the people there are atheists anyway. They're just there because it's fun to debate what the text really means (and there is a LOT of room for debate).
I like to point out that the word rabbi means teacher -- that is, the most important tenet in Judaism is never to stop learning. And if everything else falls by the wayside, as long as you study something, you can still be Jewish. I like this argument because I'm an atheist, I would never want to keep kosher, I feel uncomfortable in synagogues, I don't even light candles on Shabbat, but I'm still a Jew because I am curious and always want to learn more.
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Taalcon, assuming that the location in your profile is current, you might want to try contacting this organization.
Oh, and look, their schedule shows a weekly Talmud class Saturday evenings (although it looks like it might be on hiatus for the summer). And their list of local organizations shows some other possibilities, most notably the Jewish Educational Alliance.
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posted
Maybe Duragon is thinking of the temple built by the Samaritans?
When the 2nd temple (in Jerusalem) was being contructed (by the Jews returning from Babylonian captivity), the Samaritans (who had broken off from the main group of Jews by inter-marrying with other cultural groups many years earlier) wanted to help in its contruction. However, since they were no longer considered "Jews", their help was refused. The Samaritans were offended by this and decided they would build their own temple (on Mt. Gerezim). This was, to my knowledge, one of major causes of animosity between Samaritans and Jews of that time period (and during the time of Jesus).
quote: Alexandria abounds in religious monuments that reflect tolerance and stability. Since its rise, the city had a substantial Jewish community who coexisted peacefully with local population. The first church in Africa was established in Alexandria by St. Mark the Apostle. Religious monuments in Alexandria comprise the Jewish Temple, St. Mark’s Church, Marmina al-"Agaibi’s Monastery and az-Zogag Monastery. Islamic monuments comprise a conglamoration of mosques in al- Gomrok District, in addition to the mosques of al-Attareen, al- Mursi abul-Abbas, al- Bosairi and Sidi Bishr among many others.
quote:Around ninety years ago, archaeologists working near the present-day site of the Aswan Dam (on the Nile River) discovered a collection of perfectly preserved papyrus letters. The letters seemed to be the correspondence of the soldiers of a Persian garrison stationed in the area towards the beginning of the Second Temple period (see timeline). What is interesting to us, is that these paid soldiers - and their families who lived alongside them - were Jewish! They lived in the garrison town for generations, cut off from Jewish life.
http://www.shemayisrael.co.il/hmikdash/early_sub.html [quote] Reading the letters (written originally in Aramaic) we can learn a great deal about the Jewish life of the period. For one thing, these Jews had a temple dedicated to idol worship. Apparently, some Egyptian vandals destroyed their temple and the Jews applied to the Persian governor in Alexandria for permission to rebuild it there. They were unsuccessful. Later they wrote to the Jewish governor in Jerusalem from whom they received the permission to do what they wanted.
However, Josephus seems to be the one of the few, older credible sources that documents the jewish temple, not learning-house, in Alexandria. Discourse concerning the second temple located in Alexadria can be found in The Jewish Antiquities and even somewhat mentioned in The Jewish Wars.
[ August 22, 2003, 02:05 PM: Message edited by: Duragon C. Mikado ]
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posted
Duragon, I had an opportunity to check Artscroll's History of the Jewish People: The Second Temple. I discovered the source of my confusion -- you and I were discussing two different things. Sorry, my bad.
There was indeed a very large synangogue in Alexandria. There was also a temple in Heliopolis, near Alexandria. Chonyo IV built it.
quote: Chonyo's motivation in building the temple is not quite clear. . . . Perhaps he did it to satisfy his ambition to be a Kohen Gadol (high priest). At any rate, the Sages did not approve of it. Their attitude to the synagogue in Alexandria was entirely different.
In fact, the Sages went so far as to declare that any Kohen who served in Chonyo's temple invalidated himself to serve in the Temple in Jerusalem.
Chonyo's temple (which is how I learned to refer to it, hence my confusion) was one of the many things that the Hellenists did that caused them to be denounced by mainstream Judaism of the time. Therefore, it didn't "decentralize the religion" -- most Jews did not accept it as valid.
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Yikes, Ralphie, you don't give me much to live up to, do you? ![[Wink]](wink.gif)
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Some of these debates have been settled; many have a "majority opinion" which is general held, but also a "minority opinion"; and then there are the really fun ones, which have no resolution -- in at least two cases, the "resolution" that is reached in the Gemara is "we'll ask Eliyahu (Elijah) when he ushers in Moshiach (the Messiah)." ![[Smile]](smile.gif)
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There was a large synagogue in Alexandria, but there has never been a Temple anywhere but in Jerusalem, on the Temple Mount.
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