posted
Greetings, Hatrack. As katharina says, you are my tribe, and as we all know, sometimes virtual community can rise above the material one.
I have a problem, the beginnings of a plan, and great need for wise advice.
Brief background: crazy weird enmeshed cult-like family of 10 surviving sisters and 1 surviving brother have the poorest sister die this past summer. Said sister's husband, however, had purchased property on which a small cabin had been built, and that riverfront property may or may not be worth much. (Hard to say whether it'll sell well -- property is beautiful but small, building is condemnable.)
I'm the daughter of the sibling above who died. Also as background, I had open-heart surgery when I was seventeen. Back then, my mother (a nurse) was working double-shifts to support our family, including my disabled 82-year-old father. He died just before my surgery, leaving my mother with additional debt.
More recently, Mother signed over title of the property to my brother in the weeks before she died. My brother and I have no desire to benefit monetarily from our parents' death (creepy thought, and we are both making do on our own just fine). Can't find the will because the person who was supposed to be executor has lost track of it. There is an unsigned copy at the lawyer's, which may or may not be admissible. So, everything's on hold for now.
(Dang, not so brief after all.)
Now, one of my Aunts has contacted me because two of my Uncles (one who was supposed to be the executor of my mother's estate, but he can't find the will) are planning to take out a lien on my mother's house on behalf of another sister (a nun) because they claim my mother borrowed money (for my surgery) from her father, who took it out of a trust he'd set up for the nun-sister. My husband spoke with the representative Aunt, who has "persuaded the Uncles not to take legal action." We don't know whether the nun-Aunt has any idea this is going on. We suspect that she does not.
Mind you, this is the first either I or my brother have heard of this.
Of course we will pay back the $6000. We will also gladly pay the $8065 interest (as calculated by the Uncles).
(I love my husband. He thinks this family is nuts, but he intercedes for me so I don't have to deal with the weirdness. He is a saint.)
I left my hometown because these people are so unmanageable. Neither my brother or I will move back to the area because living there is so stressful. However, I don't want to break ties with family -- I just want to have peace, and not to have to deal with the ones who drive me batty.
Here's my plan:
We hire a lawyer from that general area (7 hours' drive from me) to deal with the family, after we make sure that the lawyer has no conflicting interests. The lawyer takes care of the estate taxes, pension, sale of property, and this debt. The lawyer gets receipt of this debt discharged in full. The lawyer finds out any other claims my mother's siblings have on her estate, or which their dependants may have, and settles them. Then he collects a statement from each sibling that no debts are left outstanding.
(That step seems rude to me, but I think we have to have to have some kind of closure. I think I can have the lawyer do it sort of matter-of-factly, so it doesn't seem to be vituperative or snarky from me and my brother.)
Then, we just make it a point to keep in minimal contact with these people. Christmas cards, help if needed, but no intimacy. At least not in general.
Now, my mother's estate may not cover whatever else they come up with (if anything). If so, I'll have the lawyer set it up so that my brother and I share a payment schedule. We'll acknowledge any reasonable claim (really bizarre or huge ones may need confirmation, but why sweat it over the smallish stuff). If there's nothing left of the estate, then fine. We at least bought some peace and distance.
posted
My advice would be, contact the Aunt whose trust fund this "loan" was taken out from. Offer to pay back the amount borrowed plus interest if you feel strongly about it.
She may either forgive the debt or accept the repayment to be placed back in the trust fund. Either way, it is her decision and won't involve a third party. If repayment is made, it guarantees that the money will go to the person it is intended to go to.
If this becomes a problem, ask the uncles for any documentation they might have on the loan. This would have to include signed agreements between the person who gave the loan and the person (your mother) who received it. Without such documentation, I don't believe they can put a legal lien against the property. If there was a verbal contract, they will have a hard time pursuing it if the person who made the loan is still alive.
My reasoning is that it sounds like you aren't sure if the money was ever really loaned to your mother. There is also the possibility that it was given as a gift during a time when your mother was in need.
Basically, it could be seen as a debt of honor by you and that is why I advise contacting the aunt first. If there was ever a debt, then it could go directly back to the person from whose money it was taken. It would also guarantee that nothing was skimmed off of it. When approaching her, do explain that you are able and willing to pay off that debt if you are capable of doing so.
If all of this fails, do get an attorney and let them handle it. I would advise going with an attorney from a neighboring town or county, just to help prevent conflicts of interest. In the matter of who is executor of your mother's will, I believe that in the absence of a signed and documented will, it would fall to her closest blood relative, i.e. you and your brother. I would not give up this right.
The uncles may just be looking out for the interests of the family and the Nun sister in particular, but I would also wonder about the situation a bit. Do they own land adjoining the property in question? If so, are they hoping that you will sign the land over in lieu of repaying the loan? Have they had the land appraised recently?
You've got a tough one ahead of you, my hope is that you can resolve this situation quickly and amicably.
Posts: 2848 | Registered: Feb 2003
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quote: (That step seems rude to me, but I think we have to have to have some kind of closure. I think I can have the lawyer do it sort of matter-of-factly, so it doesn't seem to be vituperative or snarky from me and my brother.)
Oh, no! The uncle brought up a lien against the property. He will start playing hardball. You need protection, and your plan is the perfect step. Move forward in strength lady!
They have fired the first volley.
Posts: 2506 | Registered: Jul 2003
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posted
Wow, Sopwith. Thanks for the careful and thoughtful response. I really appreciate it.
Yes, likely just a debt of honor. I doubt the Uncles could do anything legally, but I have no desire whatsoever to dodge any obligation just on legal technicality.
My husband also suggested working directly with the nun-Aunt. We will.
It will be difficult to get a lawyer specializing in estate law from another town in the area, as they are mostly populations of less than 2000. We will be careful, though.
I am very interested in using a lawyer as intermediary, as I am not sure who I can trust in this family to keep their word. Growing up there gave me a strong sense of being manipulated, and I am unhappy after most direct contacts with them. It would be nice to have things done cleanly and aboveboard, and to have someone who will field phone calls and letters. That would be worth a great deal to me.
I also am often hard to reach (believe it or not ), and this would give the family access to a representative for me on a regular basis. Fufilling that obligation is also important to me.
Posts: 14017 | Registered: May 2000
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quote:Oh, no! The uncle brought up a lien against the property. He will start playing hardball. You need protection, and your plan is the perfect step. Move forward in strength lady!
Thanks for the encouragement, eslaine. It's hard to tell with these people what is really going on, and there's a history of feuding and whatnot. I think keeping the settling of this calm and objective will be both healthy and a new experience for them.
Perhaps it can be a learning experience for all of us.
BTW, some of my cousins have already apologized for their parents' behavior. It's mostly a problem with that particular generation, and we offspring have pretty much all moved away.
Posts: 14017 | Registered: May 2000
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posted
Yeah, I think all families have these sorts of problems. The size of that one just aggrivates it! I've seen too many nasty lawsuits between families, the best thing to do is the course you have already outlined.
posted
Your plan sounds fair and considerate. You are doing the right thing.
Just make sure you find a non-biased lawyer. Under no circumstances tell them you are looking, or feel compelled to accept a referral from them for "a friend who will give you a good rate." They have home court advantage.
Finally, if they have any questions about the receipts, explain it as Tax Papers.
Posts: 11895 | Registered: Apr 2002
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posted
CT, hire a really good lawyer and then get his or her advice. Then you can hire the local hometown lawyer to handle the varions filings, etc. If this debt was never claimed against your mother while she was living, it sounds like it may have been spurious, or settled long ago, or something like that. They wouldn't have tried that business on her while she was living, in other words, but they know you and your kind heart and think it might just fly with you? Could that be it?
Make it all completely impersonal, but override the attorney if he feels you can get more than you feel you are entitled to. Your grief and the personal hurt involved in the way your mothers' siblings are behaving will quite possibly make you not able to make clear headed choices about these things, so definitely let the attornies handle all the negotiations, etc, and only overrule them if it seems that some clear injustice will be done by the law being in your favor. I would let the way Prince Myshkin handled the estate of his dear doctor who left him a fortune be my guide in such things. Investigate and discover the real truth of the matter, then do what is just. For instance, definitely talk to the nun and find out what was written down and signed, what her recollection is, and so on, before you settle any money on anyone to cover this debt. It really sounds invented to me.
Good luck and many hugs, dear CT.
Posts: 968 | Registered: Sep 2003
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posted
I agree with Dan. Even if you decide to contact the nun Aunt directly, you need a good, unbiased lawyer to make sure that everything is done fairly and legally. You need to be able to close out any debts with no possibility of something coming up in years to come. Also, find out what your rights are in the absence of a signed will, if no legal will turns up.
Our thoughts are with you. Best of luck getting through this.
posted
Let me get this right...your uncles put a lien on the property BEFORE even talking to you?
Screw 'em! I mean seriously, you may want to keep in contact with family, but these two (at least) are not treating you like family. Get a lawyer and get those statements in writing. And instruct your lawyer or the executor (or whoever ends up doling out the money) that no signed statement, no check!!!
My family on both sides had almost no money. The way the various aunts descended to claim their "share" of the furniture and so forth was disgusting. Really!
The other really important advice is to have a very clear will held by your lawyer (and not a relative). For your own estate, make sure it is clear who gets what under what conditions. Spare your kids this kind of thing.
People who do this are only looking out for themselves.
Saw it recently with another relative of mine. Her 1/2 brother hated the dead relative but is demanding half of the money, even though he was completely cut out of the will and for very good and well known reasons. He's threatened to get a lawyer. Jerk!
I think I'll be one of those people who leaves everything to my dogs. All 257 of them!
posted
I agree with the advice to get a lawyer local to you (assuming it’s in the same state) and have him find and use a lawyer for anything that needs to filed locally. You want your lawyer to be available to you, not the adversaries.
Keep the estate, the transfer of the property, and the alleged debt as separate issues in your mind (I’m sure your lawyer will). Remember, the debt will be owed by the estate, which the property is not part of, providing the transfer of title was legal and final. This could be a very sticky situation, but the upshot is your Uncle is the one who will have to prove his case. Your lawyer will have a lot of options in battling this. My gut feeling is everything is on your side, although of course your lawyer is the one you should listen to.
An appraisal on the property and some investigating into whether or not it’s about to increase in value are in order – the suggestion about adjacent parcels is especially likely.
One more important piece of advice – once you have the lawyer, let the lawyer do the talking with the family. It will save you stress and prevent you from making admissions that may be harmful later.
Also, treat the legal claims as entirely separate form any debt you feel you are honor-bound to repay on behalf of your mother. Make it clear that the honor-bound portion will not be considered until the legal issues are resolved. It’s very easy to get taken advantage of in your situation – the nightmare scenario is you repay the loan out of a sense of duty, but somehow the debt survives and you (or the estate) end up still legally liable for it. Of course, if it turns out your Aunt needs the money for some personal crisis, you’ll have to let your conscience and good sense battle it out. No matter what, stick with your plan not to pay any money unless your lawyer is satisfied with the documentation involved.
Dagonee
PS, your sense of duty on behalf of your mother does you credit. Just don’t let it be used to take advantage of you.
Posts: 26071 | Registered: Oct 2003
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quote:Now, one of my Aunts has contacted me because two of my Uncles (one who was supposed to be the executor of my mother's estate, but he can't find the will) are planning to take out a lien on my mother's house on behalf of another sister (a nun) because they claim my mother borrowed money (for my surgery) from her father, who took it out of a trust he'd set up for the nun-sister. My husband spoke with the representative Aunt, who has "persuaded the Uncles not to take legal action." We don't know whether the nun-Aunt has any idea this is going on. We suspect that she does not.
CT, there are so many things wrong with this that it makes my head hurt.
First of all, what authority do these uncles have to act on your nun-aunt's behalf? Do they have power of attorney over her? Is she incompetent in any way? If not, then they have absolutely no legal authority to act on her behalf in any way. You can't just take legal action on behalf of another person. (Also, wouldn't any money left to her go to her order or the Catholic Church? If that is the case, then they are the ones who should be handling this.)
Secondly, and more importantly, the executor can't find the will?!? That is outrageous! Okay. How do you know he is supposed to be the executor? Did your mother name him as such to any attorney or to you or your brother? How about to any other family members? There is a formal process for naming an executor - you can't just say, "I want Johnny," and that's it. If this uncle is legally the exector, then I would encourage you to have him removed for incompetency. If he cannot produce the will, then you have the legal right to have him removed. BTW, are you sure that he does have the latest, legal copy of the will (which would be signed and notarized)? If not, then you can have your lawyer go through the process of verifying the unsigned will that the other lawyer has. Oh, and whose lawyer is it who has the unsigned will?
As to this loan taken when you were 17 - do they have any documentation? Did your mother sign a promissory note? If so, they must produce it for verification. Is that signed and notarized? Frankly, I doubt that this loan ever happened. If money was exchanged, I am sure it was a gift and it was your grandfather's business who he gave his money to. If this is an unpaid loan, why has it never been mentioned until now? Why would the executor of your grandfather's estate not take care of it or ever even mention it?
I heartily support your decision to hire a lawyer. That would have been the first thing I would have told you to do.
I think you are acting like a real lady about this situation, not that I would expect any less from you.
One last thing - I would not concede to much to fast. That might encourage the opposing parties to make more and more outrageous claims and you could be tied up for years. Even if you have every intention of giving them what they want, make getting it so much trouble for them that they will forget about making any more claims.
Posts: 3037 | Registered: Jan 2002
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posted
CT - my paternal side of the family tried this b.s. I clearly stated that I would be no part of it and they haven't spoken to me since. That was five years ago now. Get an unbiased attorney and look out for you first. You can do those things while still maintaining civil relations with them - in fact, they'll probably stay more civil because of an attorney that's unbiased (NOT the one holding the "unsigned" will) than if you tried to handle it on your own.
Plus, you are the granddaughter. You are not responsible for the bills. That comes out of the estate. Not your pocket. Don't let them take advantage of you.
posted
Sounds like my mother's family...and my mother. I can't offer advice, but I can give a :: hug :: Satyagraha
Posts: 1986 | Registered: Apr 2001
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posted
I wouldn't contact the nun aunt personally before just getting a lawyer.
They are treating you like family- family always expects to get an extra advantage from others, which obviously can't go both ways.
Posts: 11017 | Registered: Apr 2003
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posted
This thread has been tremendously helpful. (And thank you for the e-hugs -- for me, it gave a little wave of comfort, and that was very cool. )
I think puzzling through this overnight, musing over what you all and my sweetie have said, and some more information that came through earlier today helped me put the pieces together. I'm going to stew on it a little more, but it definitely counts as an epiphany. Wowsa. Thanks, guys.
Posts: 14017 | Registered: May 2000
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quote:Of course we will pay back the $6000. We will also gladly pay the $8065 interest (as calculated by the Uncles).
Is the accumulated interest really higher than the debt itself, or is that a typo? How long since was the alleged loan given? Edit: I read it again, and noticed that that you had your surgery when you was 17. That's about 15 years ago, right? It would seem strange if your mother had not paid back at least part of that amount in such a long time if the sum was indeed intended as a loan. And the calculated interest seems [a little] high. [Removed, because I can't count].
quote:Now, my mother's estate may not cover whatever else they come up with (if anything). If so, I'll have the lawyer set it up so that my brother and I share a payment schedule.
Are you saying that you and your brother are considering to personally take on debts that are not covered by the assets of the estate? Because I really don't think you have any legal obligation to do so (I know you wouldn't have in Sweden, and it would surprise me greatly if it's different in the US). And if the debts are owed to close relatives of your mother (or for that matter, business associates), I don't think you have a moral obligation to take on the debts either. Your mother had her own relationships and dealings with her siblings, and there is no reason for why you should feel obliged as her children to take her place. She was a person in her own right, and people that knew her and dealt with her financially should expect and respect that.
posted
CT- We're going through this right now over my grandfather's estate. Unfortunately, it's my mother who is behaving badly.
She borrowed money from him nearly every day for 16 years ($5 for bread, $10 for gas); and never repaid it. About 20 years ago, he refused to have any contact with her, not because of the borrowing, but because she contually harangued him about his being a lousy and unloving father. Up to the day he died, he forbade anyone to give her his phone number or address.
They were both mean and selfish. Sadly, I think that money became the scorecard for their private battle.
My Aunt and Uncles completely supported my grandfather for the last 10 years of his life. They paid every bill, fed him, cleaned him, paid his medical bills and ran him back and forth to the doctor. He never said thank you. He never gave them a word of encouragement and though the four other children were at his side when he died, he died an angry, lonely man.
He also died without a will.
The estate is equally split between the five siblings according to California law. Despite the fact that my mother had done nothing monetarily to support him, she gets her fifth. All she has to do is sign the paper from the lawyer to get the title deed for the property transfered from my grandmother and grandfather's name to the name of the five siblings.
So far she has 1- "mailed the papers" and they got "lost" in the mail. 2- lost the papers. 3- Can't be reached by phone.
I don't understand her thinking. I guess that it is a last ditch effort to exert some kind of control over him.
CT- I tell this story because my daily prayer during the last couple years of my Grandfather's life was that he would live long enough to appreciate those that loved him. I prayed that he would leave my Aunts and Uncles with a reason to love him, to miss him. Maybe even give me hope that if my grandfather could change character, so could my mother.
Sadly, this didn't happen.
I like your plan; though I don't know how much of a debt of honour you owe. Goodness girl, you've gone into the business of saving lives- have you ever begrudged one of those moments spent?
And no matter how much you do or don't give them, you won't change them if they don't want to change. Because of my own experience, I don't think you can change people who have learned to enjoy treating their loved ones badly.
So, for me, it comes down to this. It's not your responsibility to appologize for or control your extended family's poor behavior, you only need to make sure that you have made your loved ones and the person in the mirror proud.
Invest as little emotionally as possible in this problem. Remember what has real value to you and hold onto that with both hands.
Posts: 2425 | Registered: Jan 2002
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posted
I agree with everyone's comments that getting a lawyer is a very good idea.
Making sure that everyone is happy with the solution in the form of statements is an excellent idea. In all probablity your siblings would be happy anyway, and the matter wouldn't come up again, but there is no harm in making sure it is settled once and for all.
On a side note, everytime I see "nun-Aunt" as a word I get the giggles. Not sure why, it just strikes me as funny...
Posts: 4393 | Registered: Aug 2003
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), and this would give the family access to a representative for me on a regular basis. Fufilling that obligation is also important to me.
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