posted
Just curious about the following. This is somewhat related to beatnix thread, which I didn't want to derail with a bunch of theoretical questions. That thread got me thinking about my attitudes on the following. But without biasing things too much, I'd like to ask:
Assuming you are married or in a committed relationship:
1) What would it take for you to be open to having a sexual affair outside the relationship or marriage? (e.g., spousal abuse, your spouse had an affair, boredome, a really cute guy/girl asks you to...)
2) Can a relationship truly recover from infidelity? And what does "recover" mean? (e.g., staying married for another 10 years after that, it never happens again, etc.)
3) If a spouse/lover loses interest in the relationship, should one try to make it work? If so, why? Even if the chances are slim-to-none of a reconciliation, should you try?
4) Does it make a difference if you were married "in the church" or not?
5) How does the presence of children (especially young children) change the situation? Should couples try harder to stay together if there are children?
6) If the other person simply doesn't want to try to make things work, what would you do?
7) Is it important to try to remain friends if you do end up breaking up, or is that just something that can only happen if the relationship wasn't that important to begin with?
8) Is sickness ever an excuse to break up? What about mental illness? What about mental illness and the sick person refuses to seek treatment? (Or does that inevitably just fall under the classification of "abuse"?)
9) Just how destructive is guilt in all of this? I know some couples stay together out of guilt. I know others that break up because the "no-longer-interested" party is tired of feeling guilty about it. Would you stay with someone who you knew was still there only because you had guilted him or her into it?
10) How big a factor are low self-esteem and selfishness in all of this? Should low self-esteem people get counseling before they marry? Should everyone get counseling to recognize their own areas in which they are most selfish? Are these character flaws or just normal for all of us? Can they be gotten over or are we doomed to repeat our mistakes because the cause is our own flawed character rather than the world around us?
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posted
I can't answer for other people, but here's my responses.
1) What would it take for you to be open to having a sexual affair outside the relationship or marriage?
A divorce. Extramarital sex with full approval and consent of the spouse is fine. Also about as likely as swimming to England, in my case, but there's always the dream...
2) Can a relationship truly recover from infidelity? And what does "recover" mean?
I think so, but it would require an awful lot of hard work and a sincere desire to regain trust. "Recover" in this case would mean that the people involved have gotten to the point where the previously adulterous person can be around members of the opposite sex without arousing suspicion in the wronged spouse. Better would be if the adulterous spouse is smart and perceptive enough to avoid such judgment calls anyway.
3) If a spouse/lover loses interest in the relationship, should one try to make it work? If so, why? Even if the chances are slim-to-none of a reconciliation, should you try?
If you honestly think that you are (or could be) better for your lover than anyone else, fight for it. If something about you makes your lover unhappy and that situation cannot be resolved, let it go gracefully. No relationship works without effort. Wedding rings do not come with magic relationship powers. If your relationship means anything to you, you should be willing to do all you can to keep it not only alive but thriving. You should also keep your eyes open to the possibility that you two just might not be right for each other, no matter what your heart tells you.
4) Does it make a difference if you were married "in the church" or not?
Not to me, no.
5) How does the presence of children (especially young children) change the situation? Should couples try harder to stay together if there are children?
Yes and no. Will the forced relationship be better or worse for the children? It does the kids no good to have both parents if they're fighting all the time, or using the kids as chess pieces. But the presence of children should help remind you both that there are more things in your relationship besides just the two of you.
6) If the other person simply doesn't want to try to make things work, what would you do?
Leave. Hurt. Heal.
7) Is it important to try to remain friends if you do end up breaking up, or is that just something that can only happen if the relationship wasn't that important to begin with?
I think it's possible, but that it's going to be different with every person and every relationship. If I broke up with Teresa I would still be there for her without question if she ever needed me, but I suspect I couldn't be around her casually.
8) Is sickness ever an excuse to break up? What about mental illness? What about mental illness and the sick person refuses to seek treatment? (Or does that inevitably just fall under the classification of "abuse"?)
Again, a judgment call for the situation. If I was ever debilitated and needed constant care, I would want Teres to find someone else to relax with when I wasn't ringing for jello. I'm also very aware that such an offer probably wouldn't be reciprocated Depends on the mental illness, and the day-to-day results of it. Frankly, I consider a smoking addiction to be a mental illness, but I wouldn't leave someone I loved who refused to quit smoking. I also wouldn't date a smoker, so no problems there...
9) Just how destructive is guilt in all of this? I know some couples stay together out of guilt. I know others that break up because the "no-longer-interested" party is tired of feeling guilty about it. Would you stay with someone who you knew was still there only because you had guilted him or her into it?
I wouldn't be with someone who was there out of guilt. I might give it a few dates to see if i can convince them to be there for the fun of it, but if guilt is the only thing keeping you in a relationship than you are not being honest with either of you.
10) How big a factor are low self-esteem and selfishness in all of this? Should low self-esteem people get counseling before they marry? Should everyone get counseling to recognize their own areas in which they are most selfish? Are these character flaws or just normal for all of us? Can they be gotten over or are we doomed to repeat our mistakes because the cause is our own flawed character rather than the world around us?
Low self-esteem becomes a factor when it causes you to hook up with people who take advantage of it. It is entirely possible for a person with low self-esteem to have a good relationship, but it would require a lover who constantly reassures and raises their self-esteem to reasonable levels, and that can be a lot of work. People with low self-esteem -- or unreasonably high self-esteem, for that matter -- who find themselves at a disadvantage in any social or business situation should seek counseling or advice or something to give themselves a more reliable yardstick than their own inner fears.
[ January 14, 2004, 10:45 AM: Message edited by: Chris Bridges ]
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posted
Like Chris said - these are all my own take on the questions Bob posed (they are all really great, thought-provoking questions btw).
quote:1) What would it take for you to be open to having a sexual affair outside the relationship or marriage? (e.g., spousal abuse, your spouse had an affair, boredome, a really cute guy/girl asks you to...)
I do not think that I would ever have a sexual affair. I can't think of any situation that would justify me breaking of my marital vows.
quote:2) Can a relationship truly recover from infidelity? And what does "recover" mean? (e.g., staying married for another 10 years after that, it never happens again, etc.)
Yes. I think it is a very difficult thing to recover from, but I know that it can because I have seen it in the lives of people I know. I think that to truly recover, the adulterous person would not ever do it again and would need to regain the trust they have lost. Their partner would need to completely forgive them (not bear a grudge or use it as a source of contention, throw it in their face during arguments, etc.). These can be extremely difficult to do. Whether or not a relationship can recover depends entirely on the people and their willingness to overcome such a difficult thing.
quote:3) If a spouse/lover loses interest in the relationship, should one try to make it work? If so, why? Even if the chances are slim-to-none of a reconciliation, should you try?
I think so. I think that any serious relationship includes a committment to the other person and a committment to the "relationship" itself (especially in the case of marriage). I don't think that "losing interest" is a reason to call off a marriage. I think you should always try. If one partner is uncommitted to try though, I do not think it will be possible.
quote:4) Does it make a difference if you were married "in the church" or not?
I think that marriage (church or civil) is a more serious committment than a "long term relationship" and, as such, requires a greater effort (to fix any problems) than a "long term relationship" might. That is not to say that a long term relationship can't be as serious a committment, just that marriage requires it (in my mind).
quote:5) How does the presence of children (especially young children) change the situation? Should couples try harder to stay together if there are children?
Yes. When there are problems in a relationship where there are children, the people involved have a responsibility not just to each other and their relationship, but also to their children. They need not only to consider what is best for themselves and their partner, but also for the children. I would like to think that people would be as committed to work on a failing relationship when there are no children, but in reality that doen't seem to be the case. When children are involved, I think it should be required. Divorce or separation can sometimes be the best option for parents, but I think it should be that last option.
quote:6) If the other person simply doesn't want to try to make things work, what would you do?
I would try my best to understand why and try to convince them to want to make things work, but I know that ultimately I cannot control how someone else thinks and behaves.
quote:7) Is it important to try to remain friends if you do end up breaking up, or is that just something that can only happen if the relationship wasn't that important to begin with?
I think it is an admirable goal (and the best possible outcome of a painful situration) to remain friends. Grudges, I think, are very damaging to person and, at the very least, I would like (for their own personal mental/emotional health and happiness) for people who have separated to not begrudge their ex. Again, this would require effort, but I think it would be worth it.
quote:8) Is sickness ever an excuse to break up? What about mental illness? What about mental illness and the sick person refuses to seek treatment? (Or does that inevitably just fall under the classification of "abuse"?)
I think that in extreme cases - a person refusing to seek treatment - breaking up may be the best option. Ultimately, I think the most possible happiness of each person should be considered. I don't know if a physical illness should be a reason for breaking up (although I know that it can be). Again, in a marriage, I think the responsibility to try every other possible option is greater.
quote:9) Just how destructive is guilt in all of this? I know some couples stay together out of guilt. I know others that break up because the "no-longer-interested" party is tired of feeling guilty about it. Would you stay with someone who you knew was still there only because you had guilted him or her into it?
I don't think that guilt should be a motivating factor in a relationship (it's not healthy). For the most part, guilt is unhealthy. Feeling bad for things that can and should be changed, I think, isn't really guilt. I think of guilt as the destructive, hopeless emotion, which I don't think is at all constructive or helpful. Guilt is only useful as a motivation to improve. Guilt as the reason to mope, become depressed and despondant, or lose all hope is not useful. Above all, I think that the happiness of both you and your partner should be your biggest goal and consideration. If you or your partner is totally miserable and all your efforts to change that fail, I do not think that you should stay in that relationship.
quote:10) How big a factor are low self-esteem and selfishness in all of this? Should low self-esteem people get counseling before they marry? Should everyone get counseling to recognize their own areas in which they are most selfish? Are these character flaws or just normal for all of us? Can they be gotten over or are we doomed to repeat our mistakes because the cause is our own flawed character rather than the world around us?
I think that selfishness is the number one factor in the break-up of relationships. I think that many people see serious relationships (especially marriage) as temporary and disposable, which I think is wrong. Selfishness is something that I think every person (in a relationship or not) should work to overcome, but I think it is especially important within the context of a relationship (because a committed relationship requires just that - committment - not just to yourself, but to your partner). I'm not sure if people with low self-esteem should get counseling before marriage, although it sounds like a good idea. I know people whose low self-esteem is damaging to their relationships, while I know others (me for example) whose low self-esteem is not necessarily damaging to their relationship (or at least it doesn't seem to me to be). Counseling to recognize your individual selfishness sounds like a great idea - something that could greatly improve the quality of your relationships. I think that every couple should try counseling (together and seperately) before calling it quits. Everyone has character flaws and weakness. I think that they can be improved upon (or decreased, depending on how you look at it) and, in some cases, completely overcome. That requires great effort and time. A committed relationship, I think, requires a recognition of each others flaws and weaknesses at the outset, an acceptance of them (on both people's parts), but also a committment (by both people) to help overcome/improve them (their own and to help their partner overcome their's).
posted
I agree with Chris on almost every answer. But I want to add a few things.
4) Does it make a difference if you were married "in the church" or not?
I’m tempted to say not, but then I know of some people that have entered into a legal marriage not thinking of it as a permanent arrangement. I don’t know of any church marriage that doesn’t include a promise for at least the duration of this life, but if people got married outside of the church without making life-long promises, I guess that would be different.
7) Is it important to try to remain friends if you do end up breaking up, or is that just something that can only happen if the relationship wasn't that important to begin with?
Maintaining a cordial relationship is a measure of the maturity of the participants, not the importance of the original relationship.
9) Just how destructive is guilt in all of this? I know some couples stay together out of guilt. I know others that break up because the "no-longer-interested" party is tired of feeling guilty about it. Would you stay with someone who you knew was still there only because you had guilted him or her into it?
With counseling/discussion/effort I would hope the guilty-feeling spouse would either discover other reasons to stay or decide not to. Guilt is not a strong enough base on which to build a relationship. I wouldn’t leave a relationship if I thought my spouse was only staying out of guilt, but I also wouldn’t try to make him feel guilty in order to make him stay.
10) How big a factor are low self-esteem and selfishness in all of this? Should low self-esteem people get counseling before they marry? Should everyone get counseling to recognize their own areas in which they are most selfish? Are these character flaws or just normal for all of us? Can they be gotten over or are we doomed to repeat our mistakes because the cause is our own flawed character rather than the world around us?
Everyone should get counseling before they marry. It’s just a good, structured way to make sure you’ve talked about the things you need to talk about and are communicating well with each other.
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quote:1) What would it take for you to be open to having a sexual affair outside the relationship or marriage? (e.g., spousal abuse, your spouse had an affair, boredome, a really cute guy/girl asks you to...)
It will never happen. I made a commitment that it wouldn't, and I will keep true to that commitment.
quote:2) Can a relationship truly recover from infidelity? And what does "recover" mean? (e.g., staying married for another 10 years after that, it never happens again, etc.)
In my case, my wife betrayed me with an emotional affair, not a sexual one. Perhaps that will be easier for me to "recover" from. I don't know. For me, though, what it will take is for her to completely end her relationship with the other man (which hasn't happened yet) as a start. As to the rest -- I don't know. We have to love each other again, and renew our commitment to each other, and then work on that and our relationship over time. I really don't know what the "tipping point" will be when I can say that I feel "recovered." I don't kow that I ever will. She betrayed me once, and as a result, I know that she can do it again. That will always be with me, no matter how good and committed our relationship may become in the future. Would that mean that I will never "truly recover?" I don't know. I don't think so.
I think I will consider myself recovered when we again get to the point that she can tell me anything and verything about any and all of her relationships with other people and I won't feel instantly jealous when she does. There will have to be behavior modifications for that to occur and they will be a long time coming. We'll see if it happens and how it turns out.
quote:3) If a spouse/lover loses interest in the relationship, should one try to make it work? If so, why? Even if the chances are slim-to-none of a reconciliation, should you try?
I believe so. The commitment of marriage is not to be tossed away casually, especially when one realizes that people fall in and out of love constantly over the course of the marriage. Even if both are "out of love" at the moment, the joint commitment to the marriage should be sufficient for them to attempt to regain interest and make it work again.
And even if the chance of reconciliation is slim-to-none, each should try so that even if it doesn't work out, in the future they can look back and say "I gave it my best shot. It ended, but not because I wasn't trying."
quote:4) Does it make a difference if you were married "in the church" or not?
I think so. Studies I've seen show that "in-church" marriages of people with similar or same religious backgrounds have a lower divorce rate than "in-church" marriages of people with differing religions and "out-of-church" weddings.
And on a personal note, my wife's 1st husband had a different religion. They were married by his pastor, but that was the only shared religious component of their marriage. Plus they were married in his back yard, not in a church. That marriage failed in less than a year. There were many reasons for that, but the fact remains -- someone very close to me had what I consider to be an "out of church" wedding, and it failed in less than a year, so that colors how I view this.
quote:5) How does the presence of children (especially young children) change the situation? Should couples try harder to stay together if there are children?
Children do change it. They are a binding agent. Yes, couples should try harder to stay together. I just read something yesterday that said that 70% of children of divorced parents say that they would have preferred their parents stay together and be fighting rather than have divorced. It's easy to say that the situation is better if the parents aren't fighting, but for 70% of the kids to say they'd prefer the fighting to a divorce kinda throws some cold water on that, IMO.
quote:6) If the other person simply doesn't want to try to make things work, what would you do?
This depends. For how long has that person not wanted to try to make things work, and why not? From what I'm currently reading, relationships with serious troubles usually have 1 or both partners go into an "ambivalent phase" where they really can't make up their minds whether they want to try to make it work or not, and if pressed will usually say that they don't want to while in this phase. This generally lasts 3-6 months. Assuming the relationship stays together through this time period, though, about 80% end up staying together.
So this begs the question, is the other person really not interested in making it work? Or is this person in an ambivalent phase?
My wife right now is still very ambivalent if you ask her directly what she wants. Her actions are starting to indicate a desire to work things out, but her words still say she doesn't know what she wants. Is she really uninterested as she says? I think she's actually "just" ambivalent and that with the passage of time we will get through that and be able to work on it.
quote:7) Is it important to try to remain friends if you do end up breaking up, or is that just something that can only happen if the relationship wasn't that important to begin with?
For this, I think it's again situational. For me and my wife, if we do split up, we still want to be friends for the sake of our children. If we didn't have the children, though, I doubt that I would want to keep in contact with her at all.
And I don't think that a couple that splits up is saying that the relationship wasn't important. I can see how it could seem that way, but I don't think it means that at all.
quote:8) Is sickness ever an excuse to break up?
No
quote:What about mental illness? What about mental illness and the sick person refuses to seek treatment? (Or does that inevitably just fall under the classification of "abuse"?)
Situational again. I believe my wife to be mentally ill, and she refuses treatment. Her illness is depression to the point of being suicidal. It stems from many issues, most of which were various forms of abuse she suffered in her 1st marriage and as a young child. She has never had treatment for them and refuses treatment, always coming up with some excuse as to why she's actually okay after all. I think she's so used to being how she is that the thought of being "better" scares her. I also believe that she is afraid that going to counseling will make her re-live the abuse and she desperately wants to avoid that.
So, do I cut her loose? Or do I continue to love and support her and encourage her to get the treatment she so desperately needs? I choose the latter, because it has a greater hope of success for her, plus I can then take the joy of assiciation with her as well. If I were to cut her loose due to her illness, it would hurt both of us, where staying together has the potential to be good for both of us.
quote:9) Just how destructive is guilt in all of this? I know some couples stay together out of guilt. I know others that break up because the "no-longer-interested" party is tired of feeling guilty about it. Would you stay with someone who you knew was still there only because you had guilted him or her into it?
Guilt should play no part. Guilt indicates something wrong. If there is guilt, fix the problem. That may require a divorce, but it also may mean behavioral changes. In my case, I know that my wife feels guilty about her relationship with the other guy, but she's getting something from that relationship that she doesn't think she can get from me, so she's not willing to give that relationship up yet. However, due to that guilt, she will eventually change herself to eliminate it, either by ending that relationship so there needs be no guilt, or by divorcing me so there's no more relationship to betray and feel guilty about betraying. We'll see. Either way, the guilt will end.
quote:10) How big a factor are low self-esteem and selfishness in all of this? Should low self-esteem people get counseling before they marry?
Low self-esteem people are high-maintenance. The other person needs to contantly be building them up, and are especially prone to stray, actually, since they usually interpret support as loveand so are easily wooed from on "supporter" to another. I don't see how counseling could help this prior to a relationship, though. The other partner knows going in about the "low" person's needs, and the "low" person can still mke the level of commitment necessary to the other so as to not stray. How would counseling change that?
quote:Should everyone get counseling to recognize their own areas in which they are most selfish? Are these character flaws or just normal for all of us? Can they be gotten over or are we doomed to repeat our mistakes because the cause is our own flawed character rather than the world around us?
No. Normal. Yes, they can be gotten over, because we can take responsibility for ourselves and improve our characters.
This isn't to say that counseling may not be beneficial, but I can't make a blanket statement like "Everyone should get counseling."
posted
I confess dkw, I was curious and went on the United Methodist site to see if they had a list of questions couples had to answer during pre-marital counseling, like some other denominations do.
quote: i) To perform the marriage ceremony after due counsel with the parties involved. Due counsel shall provide guidance to prepare the parties involved for the realistic responsibilities and obligations of marriage. The guidance should include, but not be limited to, consultation and discussion of the following topics: (a) communication methods, (b) theological beliefs, (c) financial decisions, (d) sexual relations, and (e) family histories. The pastor shall administer at least one personal counseling session for each party involved and four combined counseling sessions for the couple. The pastor shall also offer additional resources available to the parties in the terms of professional premarital counseling if he or she deems necessary. If the aforementioned counseling is performed by someone other than the pastor, the pastor may require a recommendation from or consultation with the counselor in order to be better informed regarding how to guide his or her parishioners in the marriage covenant. The decision to perform the ceremony shall be the right and responsibility of the pastor.
I couldn't tell whether it had been passed or not. Are those the minimum requirements before performing a marriage for all UMC pastors?
posted
1) What would it take for you to be open to having a sexual affair outside the relationship or marriage? (e.g., spousal abuse, your spouse had an affair, boredome, a really cute guy/girl asks you to...)
It would take an extreme amount of carelessness on my part--letting myself be drawn into it. I wouldn't abruptly choose to do it because I felt justified. There is no justification for it, IMO.
2) Can a relationship truly recover from infidelity? And what does "recover" mean? (e.g., staying married for another 10 years after that, it never happens again, etc.)
I believe it can, after a great deal of humility and willingness to forgive. It would take two people being very humble and committed to each other. No feelings of justification for revenge or bitterness.
3) If a spouse/lover loses interest in the relationship, should one try to make it work? If so, why? Even if the chances are slim-to-none of a reconciliation, should you try?
I'll be callous and say that unmarried lovers can do whatever they want. Marriage, however, is a binding commitment that should not be thrown away lightly. Salvage the marriage, and you've salvaged something very valuable and your relationship has become stronger because of it. Kind of like not giving up in training to be a Marine, and emerging as a hero, like in those commercials. You don't get the really valuable stuff unless you hold on and fight for it.
There seems to be a lot less selflessness nowadays, and a lot more "me" oriented thinking. Lots of marriages don't work because the partners are unwilling to put the other first.
4) Does it make a difference if you were married "in the church" or not?
To me, yes, although I am thinking of temple marriages that LDS perform, which have broader implications to us. But any marriage can be a bastion of strong commitment and fidelity. I love to see a strong marriage--it warms my heart much more than knowing where they were married.
5) How does the presence of children (especially young children) change the situation? Should couples try harder to stay together if there are children?
Yes. And not just stay together, but love each other, so the children have good examples and feel secure.
6) If the other person simply doesn't want to try to make things work, what would you do?
Give it my all, and try not to become bitter or angry. Obviously, it's not always going to work out, but hopefully not for any selfishness on my part.
7) Is it important to try to remain friends if you do end up breaking up, or is that just something that can only happen if the relationship wasn't that important to begin with?
I'd say try to remain friends, because what will it help to be enemies? Especially if there are children involved. It's so sad to see children's lives being wrecked by nasty battles between their parents.
8) Is sickness ever an excuse to break up? What about mental illness? What about mental illness and the sick person refuses to seek treatment? (Or does that inevitably just fall under the classification of "abuse"?)
I would not want to be someone who abandoned my spouse when she needed me most. What happened to "in sickness or health"? In the eternal perspective, that kind of hardship would be passingly short, but if I endured it well I would still have my beloved spouse forevermore, beyond the reach of illness.
9) Just how destructive is guilt in all of this? I know some couples stay together out of guilt. I know others that break up because the "no-longer-interested" party is tired of feeling guilty about it. Would you stay with someone who you knew was still there only because you had guilted him or her into it?
I don't know. I hope it wouldn't get to that point.
10) How big a factor are low self-esteem and selfishness in all of this? Should low self-esteem people get counseling before they marry? Should everyone get counseling to recognize their own areas in which they are most selfish? Are these character flaws or just normal for all of us? Can they be gotten over or are we doomed to repeat our mistakes because the cause is our own flawed character rather than the world around us?
Selfishness is pretty much something that the individual has to overcome in order to survive marriage. Marriage helps each spouse get rid of selfishness as they learn to give their all for one another. Self-esteem issues might find also some relief in marriage, with a loving spouse for support and understanding. Both, IMO, can be gotten over with love, patience, understanding, and maturity. Blaming the world around you for your character flaws, however, is a sign of rabid selfishness and is sure to be a stumbling block in your marriage.
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posted
2) Can a relationship truly recover from infidelity? And what does "recover" mean?
No, never. Ultimate trust means ultimate violation. I love my wife more than anyone else in the world. If she ever cheated on me, I would walk away from her and never look back.
But, at the same time, I trust her completely. I would have to be given concrete evidence of her cheating before I would even suspect it. I never read her mail or email, without being invited. I never look at her cell phone calls. I never question her when she wants to go out. She receives from me complete and absolute trust in all things.
At that point it's binary. It's a one or a zero. There is no middle ground.
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posted
Banna, that was a petition to amend the BoD that did not pass. The provision currently reads (as one of the duties of a pastor) “To perform the marriage ceremony after due counsel with the parties involved. The decision to perform the ceremony shall be the right and responsibility of the pastor. Qualifications for performing marriage shall be in accordance with the laws of the state and The United Methodist Church.”
The proposed amendment is a reasonable guideline for what “due counsel” should include, but it didn’t pass as a requirement, so it’s up to the pastor’s discretion. For example, I don’t normally have an individual session with each person. I do, however, use a relationship inventory that they fill out individually.
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quote:8) Is sickness ever an excuse to break up? What about mental illness? What about mental illness and the sick person refuses to seek treatment? (Or does that inevitably just fall under the classification of "abuse"?)
Ouch, Bob.
Hey Magson and AFR, what if the mental illness causes a spouse to be abusive? How much abuse does the committment of marriage entail toleration of?
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posted
Thanks dkw, didn't mean to derail the conversation. However some of the pre-marital questionaires I've seen that friends had to fill out got pretty rediculous IMO. The other thing that I've always found interesting is that at least from my side of the relationship, Steve and I have "worked through" most of the issues already, which is I guess to be expected since we have been together for so long, or looked at each other going, "what a rediculous thing to fight over" on some of the questions!
posted
Actually Icky, I was thinking of the situation you described with your mother while reading this thread. I believe that your situation for sure is the extreme end, where you just have to let go of the person, becuase it is into "abuse".
posted
Abuse is one of those things not to be tolerated and should result in separation. You shouldn't get back together with an abusive spouse until they have gone through anger management and you have gone through counselling. Then, if you still want to get back together, you start by 'supervised' visits: being in counselling together. Then limited visits. At that point, if he strikes you just once, leave and don't look back.
Forgive him. Let go of the anger and hope that he finds a cure for himself and can lead a happy life. But never return to him. Forgiveness is for you, not him. Forgiveness means very little to the perpetrator unless they are truly repentant, but it can cure you of a lot of pain and anger that would otherwise weigh you down. Don't put yourself in harms way again. Don't make yourself the subject of an experiment to see whether he is has changed his ways or not.
Disclaimer: I realized that I spoke as if refering to a man that has hit. But this is true of any gender and of emotional abuse as well.
Posts: 3495 | Registered: Feb 2000
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posted
1) What would it take for you to be open to having a sexual affair outside the relationship or marriage? (e.g., spousal abuse, your spouse had an affair, boredom, a really cute guy/girl asks you to...)
Not gonna happen. Period.
2) Can a relationship truly recover from infidelity? And what does "recover" mean? (e.g., staying married for another 10 years after that, it never happens again, etc.)
I've seen people I respect manage to learn to trust each other again after an infidelity, but I don't know that I could do it.
3) If a spouse/lover loses interest in the relationship, should one try to make it work? If so, why? Even if the chances are slim-to-none of a reconciliation, should you try?
YES. A marriage is a commitment that should be for life, short of abuse, maybe infidelity, or absolutely irreconcilable problems. Do you want to look back later (or worse yet, have to later explain to your children) and not be able to say "I gave it everything I had"?
4) Does it make a difference if you were married "in the church" or not?
I think that depends on the couple. I never considered myself married (or not) because of what the state of CA thought -- that was merely necessary paperwork. But I assume that someone who doesn't feel the need for a religious ceremony would consider the civil ceremony they had fully binding.
So I guess no, it shouldn't matter. Whatever marriage was sufficiently binding when the couple got married ought to stay sufficiently binding.
5) How does the presence of children (especially young children) change the situation? Should couples try harder to stay together if there are children?
It both binds them together and puts additional stresses on the marriage. Not only should a couple with children try harder to not only stay together, but stay together harmoniously; they should realize that many of the stresses that come with children -- young children especially -- are transient. Sometimes it's not the relationship that's the problem, but the stresses they are dealing with.
6) If the other person simply doesn't want to try to make things work, what would you do?
Try. Try to get them to go to counseling anyway, go alone if they won't; get friends or someone whose advice they listen to involved if necessary, but try whatever it takes. If after a significant period of time (6-12 months, IMO) of really trying there is no improvement and they still are uninterested, it may be time to throw in the towel.
6) If the other person simply doesn't want to try to make things work, what would you do?
If by "friends" you mean behave cordially to each other, then if there are children it is NECESSARY if at all possible! If you mean "buddies," I think it depends on the couple. When my ex wants to be buddy-buddy, it makes me grit my teeth and do this .
8) Is sickness ever an excuse to break up? What about mental illness? What about mental illness and the sick person refuses to seek treatment? (Or does that inevitably just fall under the classification of "abuse"?)
No; no; maybe, especially if there is abuse.
9) Just how destructive is guilt in all of this? I know some couples stay together out of guilt. I know others that break up because the "no-longer-interested" party is tired of feeling guilty about it. Would you stay with someone who you knew was still there only because you had guilted him or her into it?
Guilt is counter-productive, I think. The only exception might be if guilt was a tool to get the recalcitrant partner to agree to counseling and working on the relationship -- but just to get them there.
10) How big a factor are low self-esteem and selfishness in all of this? Should low self-esteem people get counseling before they marry? Should everyone get counseling to recognize their own areas in which they are most selfish? Are these character flaws or just normal for all of us? Can they be gotten over or are we doomed to repeat our mistakes because the cause is our own flawed character rather than the world around us?
I don't know. But I do think that premarital counseling is a good idea for all couples.
Posts: 32919 | Registered: Mar 2003
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posted
1) What would it take for you to be open to having a sexual affair outside the relationship or marriage? (e.g., spousal abuse, your spouse had an affair, boredome, a really cute guy/girl asks you to...)
I think it would take something on the level of demonic possession or total, irrecoverable loss of sanity, and even then, I'd probably kill myself directly afterwards. The spouse having an affair thing might make me flirt with the idea, but in the end, I could never stomach it.
2) Can a relationship truly recover from infidelity? And what does "recover" mean? (e.g., staying married for another 10 years after that, it never happens again, etc.)
I think it's possible to go on, but for the victim of the cheating, building back trust and confidence will be a hard road, and honestly, I think in 99% of cases, he/she will never quite get there.
3) If a spouse/lover loses interest in the relationship, should one try to make it work? If so, why? Even if the chances are slim-to-none of a reconciliation, should you try?
Depends on if you mean spouse or lover. If you've made a formal commitment to one another, then yes, it is everyone's responsibility to live up to that commitment and try to make it work. If you're in an earlier stage of the relationship, then you should be free to decide when it stops being worth it to you to continue.
4) Does it make a difference if you were married "in the church" or not?
As a Mormon, I think a temple marriage is a sacred thing worth defending, but honestly, people should be able to live up to their commitments no matter what they believe.
5) How does the presence of children (especially young children) change the situation? Should couples try harder to stay together if there are children?
Absolutely. While I could easily imagine breaking up a childless marriage for something like infidelity, having kids around makes the idea of sticking it out MUCH more viable. I'm pretty sure I would put up with just about anything if the alternative were to lose my (future) kids and deprive them of a stable family. (Don't tell my wife that, though ...)
6) If the other person simply doesn't want to try to make things work, what would you do?
Talk them into it. If that doesn't work, keep talking. Might not be productive, but it's my response to everything
7) Is it important to try to remain friends if you do end up breaking up, or is that just something that can only happen if the relationship wasn't that important to begin with?
Really depends on the situation. But for most serious breakups, I'd say that time apart — a lot of time apart — is usually a really good idea. If you rebuild your friendship later, cool. But in my experience, it seems to be healthy for both parties to get away and hate the other one for a while.
In the case of a marriage, if you can "stay friends", then you can also stay married. Period.
8) Is sickness ever an excuse to break up? What about mental illness? What about mental illness and the sick person refuses to seek treatment? (Or does that inevitably just fall under the classification of "abuse"?)
Yeah, abuse is always a special case. But I once knew a family in which the mother got MS, and the dad's first response was to cry and ask, "Why is this happening to ME?!" Suffice it to say, he freaked out, had an affair, and left the family. The mother later met another divorcé and remarried, despite the fact that she was already beginning to degenerate. THAT man stayed with her through everything. Guess which guy I admire and want to emulate?
9) Just how destructive is guilt in all of this? I know some couples stay together out of guilt. I know others that break up because the "no-longer-interested" party is tired of feeling guilty about it. Would you stay with someone who you knew was still there only because you had guilted him or her into it?
In the latter case, no. While guilt is about the most readily-available weapon in my psychological arsenal, any time I use guilt on someone, I immediately begin to feel guilty for doing so, and do everything I can to counteract the effects of my previous guilt trip.
10) How big a factor are low self-esteem and selfishness in all of this? Should low self-esteem people get counseling before they marry? Should everyone get counseling to recognize their own areas in which they are most selfish? Are these character flaws or just normal for all of us? Can they be gotten over or are we doomed to repeat our mistakes because the cause is our own flawed character rather than the world around us?
I think it's possible to do way too much over-analysis and self-blaming in advance of anything even going wrong Posts: 1907 | Registered: Feb 2000
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posted
Banna, I know some of the questions can seem a little silly, but you’d be surprised what some couples haven’t talked about before they decide to get married. The worst one I know of – and I’ve heard about it happening more than once, though I’ve never encountered it with a couple I was counseling – is couples who check different answers to the question “Is the woman pregnant?” Now you’d think they’d have talked about that one on their own, wouldn’t you?
Posts: 9866 | Registered: Apr 2002
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#1: I would never have an affair...ever. Period. I could never justify it. Any infidelity in a (supposedly) committed relationship just doesn't compute with me.
Never understood it in others either.
Except, I guess that I have the opinion that everyone (other than me) gets to make a mistake or two. We're all human, afterall.
Which brings me to #2:
I do believe that a relationship can recover after infidelity. But it takes a lot of love. And it takes a person who isn't jealous by nature, I think. And I think there have to be some other factors at play besides just "I was bored" or "he was cute."
For example, Magson hit it on the head when he said that low-self-esteem can lead a person to be vulnerable to even the slightest bit of positive attention. Knowing this, if your spouse "falls for it" from someone else, it really wouldn't be much of a surprise, would it? I would see it as part of the whole depression/self-esteem package. That's not to say I would make excuses (I know it sounds that way). More like, I would understand and therefore be more willing to deal with it in ways other than being hurt and upset adn betrayed.
Posts: 22497 | Registered: Sep 2000
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1) What would it take for you to be open to having a sexual affair outside the relationship or marriage? (e.g., spousal abuse, your spouse had an affair, boredome, a really cute guy/girl asks you to...)
This would only happen if the person were cute, but I haven't really considered it in five years. I'd call the cops if there were spousal abuse.
2) Can a relationship truly recover from infidelity? And what does "recover" mean? (e.g., staying married for another 10 years after that, it never happens again, etc.)
Definition: it never happens again, and sincere repentance and forgiveness. I believe that forgiving someone once is noble, but twice (in the case of adultery) is stupid. There is an LDS scripture outlining that one.
3) If a spouse/lover loses interest in the relationship, should one try to make it work? If so, why? Even if the chances are slim-to-none of a reconciliation, should you try?
Yes, because the problem might actually be you.
4) Does it make a difference if you were married "in the church" or not?
I think marriage is sacred even if it is civil. Someone I know was married civilly and some chick broke up her marriage telling the guy it wasn't real because it wasn't in the church. Those two went off and got married in the "church" (LDS temple). That sickens me. I think there are guidelines in place now that make that possibly less likely.
But I'm glad I was married in the Temple.
5) How does the presence of children (especially young children) change the situation? Should couples try harder to stay together if there are children?
Actually, in case of abuse or repeated infidelity, I think it is more imperative that the jerk spouse be removed if there are children.
6) If the other person simply doesn't want to try to make things work, what would you do?
Free free, set them free. Except don't let them come back. So if I decide to finally let him go, I would be done. I would make this clear in our discussion. I would also try to get him to cede parental rights, to impress the seriousness of his disinterest. Hypothetically
7) Is it important to try to remain friends if you do end up breaking up, or is that just something that can only happen if the relationship wasn't that important to begin with?
As my previous post indicates, no.
8) Is sickness ever an excuse to break up? What about mental illness? What about mental illness and the sick person refuses to seek treatment? (Or does that inevitably just fall under the classification of "abuse"?)
When I was wacko, my husband opined that he probably could have taken about six months of that before getting liberated and moving on. But I was totally psychotic. He's lived with the low grade depression for 13 years. I actually want treatment more than he's after me to seek it.
Abuse vs. Mental illness is like a whole other can of worms.
9) Just how destructive is guilt in all of this? I know some couples stay together out of guilt. I know others that break up because the "no-longer-interested" party is tired of feeling guilty about it. Would you stay with someone who you knew was still there only because you had guilted him or her into it?
Yeah. I'd be sad for them and hope they came around. Say in a scenario like I've said, if my spouse is uninterested in me but doesn't want to lose the kids. Pretty unlikely, though, since as long as we're married we would still be maintaining... uh... relations. That's another one of my rules. And if I understand men at all, that makes up for a lot.
10) How big a factor are low self-esteem and selfishness in all of this? Should low self-esteem people get counseling before they marry? Should everyone get counseling to recognize their own areas in which they are most selfish? Are these character flaws or just normal for all of us? Can they be gotten over or are we doomed to repeat our mistakes because the cause is our own flawed character rather than the world around us?
Selfishness is huge. I think it's the real cause of divorce and money troubles are just a symptom. But whether you are married or not, if you are selfish you will be miserable. IMHO. Some counseling styles make selfishness worse.
I believe strongly that character flaws can be overcome, that it's really what life is all about. That and love sweet love. Which is what motivates us to change.
Posts: 11017 | Registered: Apr 2003
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posted
Yes dkw, I realize that they probably do need to be asked, because otherwise *someone* would miss it or they wouldn't be on the questionaire!
I guess I'm lucky in having a verbal male who enjoys conversation (we both probably have a bit of verbal diarrhea) so that discussing serious stuff is much easierm, though it can get lost in the fluff. The time when we actually talk about much of the serious stuff is on road trips. Being in the car with each other for more than 3 or 4 hours gets you past all of the mundane every day stuff and down to some of the deeper things. We occasionally will squabble over directions, but normally that is at the beginning or end of the trip not in the middle. And neither of us gets too bent out of shape over directions anyway.
posted
1) What would it take for you to be open to having a sexual affair outside the relationship or marriage? (e.g., spousal abuse, your spouse had an affair, boredome, a really cute guy/girl asks you to...)
1. I just couldn't do it under any circumstances. First off, there's no desire to; secondly, I've happily made a lifelong commitment.
2) Can a relationship truly recover from infidelity? And what does "recover" mean? (e.g., staying married for another 10 years after that, it never happens again, etc.)
2. I've seen them recover and I've experienced ones that have never been repaired. I'm not sure I could ever fully recover from it, there's always a little bit of pain and broken trust. It will rear its ugly head somewhere down the line.
3) If a spouse/lover loses interest in the relationship, should one try to make it work? If so, why? Even if the chances are slim-to-none of a reconciliation, should you try?
3. You owe it to them and yourself. When you quit trying, you've lost everything. As Tim Wilson once said "Been married seven times? Hell, maybe it's you." A marriage is two people as one and sometimes we get a bit too caught up in our own identity. Perhaps it is good to try and be a bit like the other person sees you or remembers you as the case may be.
4) Does it make a difference if you were married "in the church" or not?
4. I believe that a marriage is not just a vehicle of the state but also a commitment made before God. A promise to the state means nothing (have you reported every penny you've ever made on your IRS forms?) but a promise before God is a whole different matter.
5) How does the presence of children (especially young children) change the situation? Should couples try harder to stay together if there are children?
5. Yes, I believe so. A parent has to look at their children's lives as more important than their own. One more try "for the kids' sake" is the bare minimum. In cases of abuse, however, it may be better for the children for there to be a split. Just remember your split removes you from a bad situation, but it puts the children into one. Their lives are forever changed, what they relied upon is now broken, never to be repaired. Those scars never truly heal. And when they are adults, they have a hell of a time during the holidays trying to please both sides of their family. This I know and go through every year, with divorced parents and grandparents. You may be throwing a monster off of your back, but you give your children a bear they will wrestle with time to time for their entire lives.
6) If the other person simply doesn't want to try to make things work, what would you do?
6. What can you do? If you love them truly, you can't keep them where they are suffering. Sometimes, release is an act of love if everything else has failed.
7) Is it important to try to remain friends if you do end up breaking up, or is that just something that can only happen if the relationship wasn't that important to begin with?
7. It's a case by case basis.
8) Is sickness ever an excuse to break up? What about mental illness? What about mental illness and the sick person refuses to seek treatment? (Or does that inevitably just fall under the classification of "abuse"?)
8. Only if the other person's ailment causes them to become abusive. Otherwise, in sickness and in health is still the pledge I made.
9) Just how destructive is guilt in all of this? I know some couples stay together out of guilt. I know others that break up because the "no-longer-interested" party is tired of feeling guilty about it. Would you stay with someone who you knew was still there only because you had guilted him or her into it?
9. Guilt can be a powerful motivating factor. Sometimes we turn it to good, sometimes to evil. All times, we need to get at the root of the guilt and work up and out from there. And sometimes in our guilt we don't notice that the aggrieved party is caught in their own guilt. Forgiveness is important and flows both in the giving and receiving.
10) How big a factor are low self-esteem and selfishness in all of this? Should low self-esteem people get counseling before they marry? Should everyone get counseling to recognize their own areas in which they are most selfish? Are these character flaws or just normal for all of us? Can they be gotten over or are we doomed to repeat our mistakes because the cause is our own flawed character rather than the world around us?
10. Don't we all have our moments of low self-esteem? And don't a lot of our difficulties come from those moments -- opportunities bypassed, needs not told, love not accepted and returned? A good marriage builds the self-esteem of those involved and yet keeps both grounded. A couple should nourish each others' esteems so that they are strengthened not just in the other's presence but in the day to day world as well.
Well, that's the best I could answer. I've only got three years of marriage experience and there's something new to learn each day. Also, I fear that I speak a better game than I play each day. There's always room for new learning, new efforts and improvement.
Posts: 2848 | Registered: Feb 2003
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