posted
I am bothered a bit by something that happened at dance class Monday night.
It was observation and costume week, when they pass out the costumes and try them on and parents get to come in and observe what the kids have been learning. Well, this was just Emily on Monday, she has tumbling class and they don't have costumes, so we were just there to watch her do her cartwheels and roundoffs and stuff.
There was this guy in the waiting room that made me uncomfortable. For the first part, Daniel asked me to help him get some water, he's not tall enough for the water fountain. I was at the time paying the clerk for our dance fees, and told him to wait a minute.
So the guy says "I'll help you, you can sit on my lap and drink some water." I turned around immediately because, well, that was an odd thing to say. There are no seats by the water fountain, why did he mention sitting in his lap? Daniel, to my great relief said "No, my mommy and my sister can help me" and he backed up to stand with Natalie. The man then patted his lap and said, "come on, sit down, I won't hurt you" At that point I intervened by saying "no thanks" and picking Daniel up and holding him to the water fountain.
If that was it, well, then I'd just be a little paranoid I guess. But, one of the little girls in the other class came out in her new costume to go to the restroom. It was occupied, so she sat down next to me to wait. I was very disappointed in her costume, I think it's time for me and the director to have a talk. It was a halter top and a very short skirt, as in barely a skirt at all. (We've always been pleased with this studio because the costumes have been modest, but last year there were one or two I didn't like, and now this - I'm getting worried) Anyway, this guy didn't take his eyes off her and kept talking to her. "You sure are a pretty little girl. I sure like that costume. That's so pretty on you." On and on, and on.
Then, when observation time came, he went into the studio with us, because his daughter is one of Em's classmates. Several comments were made to mothers about how pretty their daughters were (not in itself unusual) but then remarks like how long and slender one of the girls' legs were.
Okay, I was creeped. Really creeped.
Am I justified in being creeped? Is my reaction normal? I wanted my kids as far away as possible from this guy. Do you think I'm being unfairly judgmental to someone who just might be a Dad who's not used to the dance studio scene and was trying to be helpful and make conversation with people and their kids?
I mentioned to my therapist once that I'd felt uneasy about the dads of other kids sometimes. She told me to always trust those instincts, my children's safety was the most important thing.
But I'm wondering if I'm being too reactionary, like I'm seeing bad guys everywhere. Any thoughts, anyone? Mack? What would you say, as a pro?
Posts: 14428 | Registered: Aug 2001
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posted
Specificity is not appropriate in such situations. Nor is repetition. Sounds pretty creepy to me.
Posts: 3423 | Registered: Aug 2001
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posted
I would have been creeped out by it too. Chances are the guy didn't realize how creepy he was being, but it is impossible to know that for sure. I would say that you should always go with your gut when it relates to the well-being of your kids.
Posts: 5879 | Registered: Apr 2001
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posted
Belle, I think your instincts were correct in this case. That guy sounds like he has a thing for kids. I'm glad Daniel was smart enough not to take him up on his offer.
posted
We're seeing the situation through your eyes, of course, so it's hard not to perceive it the way you did, but I'd say yes, that sounds like it was incredibly creepy.
Posts: 16059 | Registered: Aug 2000
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posted
I would have said something to the guy because that is just way to weird. Who cares if you offend the freak, he's nothing to you anyways. But your kids are and thats all that matters.
Posts: 1294 | Registered: Oct 2003
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posted
Feeling creeped is not an overreaction, but are you going to do anything about it? I think the important thing is to deal with what you feel about this guy separate from your concerns over the modesty of the girl's costume and talking to the director.
Posts: 11017 | Registered: Apr 2003
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posted
I don't think you're being paranoid at all. That's REALLY creepy. I think maybe some authority figure ought to have asked him to either refrain from those comments or leave.
Posts: 4077 | Registered: Jun 2003
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posted
You don't sound out of line here. No reason why a dad should be making comments or offers like his. Something doesn't sound right here.
That said, if you are often creeped out by the presence of fathers, that seems a bit excessive. I noticed that the title of your thread only mentioned stay at home mothers and not stay at home fathers, and I wonder if you see parenting as something that fathers do not spend a great deal of time on. I often feel self-conscious in situations like you describe . . . when I'm surrounded by mothers. I tend to feel like everybody's first assumption will be that I am a pervert of some sort, just for being a man there. I would get strange looks when I would change my kids' diapers somewhere, or when I took them to dance class, or whenever I take one potty.
The difference in this case is this guy's behavior. But I think a lot of women believe that a man has no business caring for little children, apart from playing with them for twenty minutes or so when he gets home from work, and further, that any man who does is a closet pedophile. I'm not saying you believe this, just that I don't think your instincts are wrong when they are based on actions and behaviors.
Posts: 1112 | Registered: Jan 2003
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posted
I would be creeped. It’s possible that the guy is just a dad trying to be helpful and friendly. It’s possible that his intentions are benign. But at the very least he lacks social awareness of what is and isn’t appropriate conversation about/behavior with kids.
Posts: 9866 | Registered: Apr 2002
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posted
I would have asked him if he had a kid in class and see if he really belonged there. No, you did not overreact, not at all.
Posts: 3495 | Registered: Feb 2000
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posted
I would say that this is one of those cases where you should trust your instincts...especially if your instincts tell you to be creeped out. Posts: 6367 | Registered: Aug 2003
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quote: I mentioned to my therapist once that I'd felt uneasy about the dads of other kids sometimes. She told me to always trust those instincts, my children's safety was the most important thing.
I was actually going to make a comment like this. I whole-heartedly agree with the therapist, if you don't feel like sacrificing your childs safety then by all means don't.
Posts: 1660 | Registered: Jan 2000
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posted
And I do think that you should talk to the director about the costume choices. The description you gave of this particular one sounds totally inappropriate for a child (or anyone for that matter, in my opinion).
Posts: 5879 | Registered: Apr 2001
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posted
Icarus, no it's not a problem with me. I don't often get this feeling, it's only happened once or twice.
I only made the title about stay at home moms because at home dads are still a very small minority and I wanted to look at the bigger picture. My husband is very involved in parenting, and in fact he's the one who usually picks up Natalie from ballet. Before I stopped working, we split doctor's and dentist appts. pretty close to 50/50, so he's been involved in every aspect of parenting.
It's true that Dads aren't a common presence at the dance studio, but I dont' have a problem with them being there at all. I wouldn't have even noticed this guy being there if he hadn't said the things he did.
As for the costumes, yes I'm gonna say something after the recital is over, we have a chance to send in comments and I'll ask her to reconsider some of the costume choices. We do get to see the costumes, or a picture of them beforehand so I know that my kids' costumes are all pretty appropriate. I'm not crazy about Natalie's but I can accept it because it's generally age-appropriate, Natalie just happens to be several years younger than most of the girls in the class because she was moved to pointe work a year earlier than most girls are. For her, an 11 year old, it's probably not the best choice, but the girls in her class range from 12-18, with most of them being over 15. For them, not so bad.
My little ones, Abigail and Emily, have appropriate costumes.
Posts: 14428 | Registered: Aug 2001
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posted
I have been really disturbed by the mini-skirts and triangle bikini tops that I see for preschool girls now. They creep me out too.
Posts: 6367 | Registered: Aug 2003
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Yeah, I didn't think that was your angle, but I just need to speak up for the active Dad when I can. Posts: 1112 | Registered: Jan 2003
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posted
Belle, are you going to say anything about the guy to teachers? I hate to even suggest it, because just mentioning it puts a stigma on the guy whether he's guilty or innocent, but he sounds like a person they might want to keep an eye on.
If nothing else, I think he presents a good reason why those costumes are not appropriate.
Posts: 4625 | Registered: Jul 2002
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posted
Joe, do you think you've been given funny looks because you have girls or should I expect this too?
Posts: 4625 | Registered: Jul 2002
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zgator, I didn't say anything, because I didn't think I had enough to go on besides an "icky" feeling. I don't want to label someone with an accusation based on little more than my feelings and some comments that could have been completely innocent.
The clothes today do bother me too. I would never put my daughter in a backless halter top. (not to say people who do are bad parents, some people have different standards of what is acceptable)
As for this costume, I didn't think that age group (it was a class for 6-8 year olds) should be wearing a skirt that short and a halter top that exposed a lit of midriff. They were covered up less than they would have been if they were just wearing their dance class leotards.
I know dance costumes must reveal some of the body, in order for the proper lines to show, but this can be accomplished with costumes that don't make six year olds look like they belong in a rap video.
Back to whether or not I should say something, normally parents are not allowed in the dance classes. They can sit outside in the waiting room and wait for their kids. My children, because of their age, are not allowed to leave the studio unless I come get them. The teachers make certain a parent is with the child before they leave them. If I'm running late, they will send the kids to the office, and they'll wait there with the director or the secretary for me.
So, there is not really a chance for this guy to have much contact with my children or anyone elses'. I'm always there to pick them up, and usually they come straight from their class to me, and then to the car.
What bothers me is that if they guy does have some problems, is his daughter at risk? But, I can't do anything about that, without evidence.
Posts: 14428 | Registered: Aug 2001
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posted
This is what a cop told me, Belle. "You report your suspicions, we'll take care of the investigation."
Posts: 6367 | Registered: Aug 2003
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posted
I think you should talk to the teacher about the dad, too. If he is genuinely creepy, she might have picked up on some "something's not right" vibes, too. If nothing else, she'll be watching him ever after.
Posts: 3141 | Registered: Apr 2000
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posted
I vote creepy too - although the guy could just be wierd, and it's likely that he's going to sound creepy when being described by someone who thinks he's creepy.
quote:I mentioned to my therapist once that I'd felt uneasy about the dads of other kids sometimes. She told me to always trust those instincts, my children's safety was the most important thing.
Incidently, I don't agree with your therapist. I definitely agree with the part about the importance of your children's safety, but I don't agree with the notion that you should always trust instinctual fears about other people. Plenty of parents I've known take precaution too far, to the point of harming their children somewhat. Parents shouldn't have a blanket rule of always trusting their fears. I think just taking simple precautions is sufficient in these cases - as in don't leave your child alone with Mr. Creepy.
Posts: 2432 | Registered: Feb 2001
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posted
I don't want to give the wrong opinion that I'm always looking around to see what person is going to snatch my kids up and run with them, and I don't assume every man is a pedophile until proven otherwise. I've felt this way about maybe three people before, including this guy with my kids, and when I was a kid I had at least two situations that praise God didn't result in anything happening to me, but definitely could have.
My therapist credits me as being a highly intuitive person, Tres. She encourages me to trust my instincts on a lot of things. If I were always seeing a bogeyman in the shadows and jumping to conclusions, that would be one thing. But, this is the first time, after five years of association with that dance studio, that I have felt uncomfortable around one of the fathers there, or felt like the costumes were out of line. Last year, two girls did a duet and ordered costumes that were extremely revealing. The dance studio director apologized to the parents (all the parents) saying that normally when older girls were doing solos or duets they allowed them to pick their own costumes, but they would be looking at the choices from now on. That's why I'm disappointed with the one I saw Monday night, I didn't think it would be a problem again.
Posts: 14428 | Registered: Aug 2001
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posted
Belle... all I can say is what others have already pointed out. You should trust your instincts. From what I've read in your posts, you are an incredible mother. The guy did sound like a creep. If he was just being nice, he should have asked you whether or not it was all right if he could help Daniel with getting a drink of water. And, even that might have been too much depending on the vibe he gave off. As for his comments about the young girls, that's just uncouth... and creepy.
You are ALWAYS justified in feeling creeped. It is never an overreaction.
How you respond may be, but your intuition is telling you something important about this man. Pay attention to it.
As to what you should do, who you want to actually talk to, that's a much harder question. I'd keep a close eye on him and see if anyone else has the same reaction.
Finally, may suggest "The Gift of Fear" by Gavin de Becker? I can't reccomend this book enough. It's basic concept is that human intuition is a very good predictor of danger, and that learning to listen to it will not only keep you safe but also make you less afraid. I reccomend it for anyone, but especially parents.
posted
You're not overrreacting, Belle. I really don't think you are. And you should speak about it with the dance teacher for he/she to be able to react if something odd happenned with the same person. My father works in the protection of children, and trust me, there's not enough people like you that pay attention to details and don't trust blindly anyone they hardly know but who belongs to the same community (that is to say, parents of kids in the same shool etc)
Posts: 3526 | Registered: Oct 2001
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posted
Zan, good question. Not being the parent of a boy, I don't really know, but I think you're probably onto something. I think women (and men) may instinctively see it as more normal for a guy to be involved in the care of his son this way, but as unusual when it's a daughter. Posts: 1112 | Registered: Jan 2003
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posted
Right now, Ryan is still at an age where people still ask whether he's a boy or a girl. You would think that the outfit with the front end loader on it would give it a way, but... I've taken him out many times, just the two of us, to give K a break and have never received anything but nice comments.
Of course, I can see where, in a few years, taking him to the bathroom in a public place will be much easier than taking a girl. And you've got two. I would never think anything about it, but I can imagine some people might thing you were doing something wrong. Any father doing something like that must have an ulterior motive.
In line with this, I would be uncomfortable in a dance studio if young girls were wearing outfits like Belle described. I would probably try not to look too closely out of fear that someone might think I was a perv.
Posts: 4625 | Registered: Jul 2002
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posted
A. little kids shouldn't wear costumes like that.... It just makes me... uneasy B. Trust your instincts... What was he doing there in the first place? It's creepy for him to be making comments like that at small children. I don't know how many times I've seen scary guys at the library that would make me nervous because of how they would say what they'd say... Posts: 9942 | Registered: Mar 2003
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posted
z...I was just going to post that. I think a normal male parent would be sensitive to the appearances and go out of his way to make sure his behavior is obviously above board.
Sadly, while it is true that this guy could just be an innocent and interested parent, the fact is that he was behaving inappropriately.
At the very least, he was trying to get children to violate rules that their parents obviously set for them (like don't talk to strangers, don't go with strangers, etc.). And engaging any child you don't know in a conversation about his/her clothing is certainly weird, even if it's about a costume.
Asking a child who doesn't know you to touch you or sit on your lap just seems like something no-one, especially someone who is a parent of small children, would think is appropriate.
Posts: 22497 | Registered: Sep 2000
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posted
Now wait a second... talking to a kid you haven't met is inappropriate? I have to say I don't think any of the things the man did could really be described as inappropriate. It's the fact that he did ALL of them together, and made comments about the children's legs that seemed weird to me.
Posts: 2432 | Registered: Feb 2001
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posted
Tres, I can't think of any reason why you would offer to help a child with a water fountain by having him sit on your lap.
Posts: 4625 | Registered: Jul 2002
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posted
It is sad that fathers can't be more involved with their girls without it seeming odd. Like today, all three of my girls have classes with costumes. There's no way Wes would be able to come help me today, though I could really use the help. I'll be in the studio helping my children try on their costumes and there will be girls all over the place in various states of undress, with their moms helping them get the new costumes on.
In dance, you grow accustomed to people changing, like the theater. Sometimes, at recital, I've seen girls change backstage in full view of anyone walking by because they didn't have time between numbers to go to a dressing room. No one seems to notice or care.
But in this situation, a Dad in there with all those undressed girls is going to get a few strange looks. And that's really sad, because the vast majority of fathers would only be there to help their kids. Unfortunate that the few sickos out there make everyone cautious about any man they see somewhere like that.
Plenty of dads come to costume day, so they can see their kids dance (it's one of only two days all year you're allowed to observe the classes), but they stay outside until everyone dresses.
I didn't think about the restroom thing, but I can see what you mean. When we're out as a family, I take the girls to the restroom and Wes takes Daniel. If it's just me and the kids, Daniel just has to come into the ladies room with me. He's already old enough not to like it too. Posts: 14428 | Registered: Aug 2001
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posted
Exactly, z. Especially since there's no chair near the water fountain, no place for the man to sit down. He was asking Daniel to come sit on his lap over where he was, not at the water fountain. Totally wrong. Plus, when a child's mother is right there, (I wasn't more than five feet away from Daniel) you don't offer to do something for the child when their mother has already answered that she'd be right there. At least I don't. It's rude.
I've helped kids before, say if they need something handed to them and their mom has an armful of a younger sibling, but always with asking the parent, not the child. For ex., one child wanted her mom to hand her a coloring book that was in her mom's tote bag, but Mom was busy feeding a baby. I looked at Mom and said "Would you like me to get it out for her, my hands are free?" I don't know about all of you, but I just consider it courtesy to never offer anything to someone else's child without addressing the parent first.
Posts: 14428 | Registered: Aug 2001
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posted
Belle, your consideration for other parents is exemplary. I'm also inclined to trust your judgment, and I hope you do, too.
I know it sucks that we have to be extra-careful about not doing things which could be perceived as inappropriate around littl'uns, but this is so much better than the alternative. I would love to be more interactive with strangers' kids, but making faces is about as far as I go, and even then I worry that it might make them unduly friendly to other strangers. Posts: 14017 | Registered: May 2000
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As a dad, with a daughter in dance class, who's gone in to pick her up on more than a few occasions, I vote: CREEPY!
Sit on my lap?!? I won't hurt you?!?
I really haven't paying attention to all the personal details of everyone here: who is Daniel? Also, who is this guy (the creepy one) to Daniel?
1) Keep an eye on him.
2) Talk to some of the other parents there about it. You may have to "fault yourself" ("Maybe it's just me, but that dad makes me feel...") to get the conversation started.
3) If he repeats these actions, let him know he's making a number of the parent's uncomfortable, and should please be more aware of how his actions are being interpreted.
4) Really, really, really trust your intuition as to how he responds to #3!
I've found that I'm often aware of the "Creepy Dad" issue when I'm out getting my kids in what is normally perceived of as being a "Mother's" environment. And I behave accordingly (and I'm an engineer--what the heck do I know about social graces!? )
Example: I go to the school to collect up a large, cardboard model of a castle (made from a refigerator box, used for one of the school's "Reading is Fun" presentations). I'm standing at the back end of my van. There are no seats in the van--it's all cleared out. I have DUCT TAPE, ROPE, and a KNIFE in my hands, and I'm strapping the castle together so that I can fit it into the van.
It's after the late bell has rung, and the shool drop-off area (where I am) is pretty much deserted. Specifically: I'm the only adult in sight, and ther are no more than 3-4 kids, scattered about.
An 8-year-old girl comes over and strikes up a conversation. I tell her she needs to go back to class, and not talk to strangers. She tells me she's new to the area, and tells me her name.
Remember the scenario: empty van, no adults, rope, duct tape, and a knife.
I convince her to go back inside the school, and to go back to class. She does.
I finish packing up castle into the van, and immediately go to the school's office to tell them what happened, and how their security worse than sucks. They don't really care.
I don't know what the moral to this story is.
Trust no one but yourself?
Don't rely on anyone else to take care of issues that are important to you?
Trust your insticts?
A sane person is aware of how their actions might be perceived, regardless of their true intentions?
posted
Steve - Daniel is my three year old son. The man is the father of one of the daughters in dance class, I don't know any more about him than that, not even his name.
I think there are definitely situations where an adult should choose NOT to talk to a child. I can see where it's a gray area though. I mean, you don't want to be the weirdo in the corner that wont talk either. And I do think that the content of the conversation is important too.
Talking to a child about their body or clothing is probably something I would think twice about, even with the parents right there. And I can really only imagine it in situations like when the child is wearing a costume or is dressed for a special occassion (Easter is coming up, for instance). And usually it would suffice to say "you look handsome" or "you look pretty" to convey the appropriate sentiment. Getting specific gets less acceptable, IMHO. "You're wearing a very pretty costume" is borderline, IMHO and thus best avoided. It's too darned specific.
Similarly, commenting TO THE CHILD about his or her physical attributes is usually right out. "You have pretty blue eyes...", etc.
Honestly, in what situation would it be of such burning importance for a stranger (and especially a male stranger) to say such a thing to a child? What cosmic overwhelming need is served by that?
Are children so starved for affection and validataion that they need to be approached by total strangers to be told how they look? How would a true stranger know that any particular child needed that input anyway?
It just isn't proper, IMHO.
I guess I'm a bigger prude than I thought.
Belle, I think the other parents should know what you heard and judge for themselves whether to trust this guy. Imagine if he turns out to be a pedophile and you didn't warn them? At best, one of the other parents will simply say "Oh, that's Ralph, he's just a great guy and I'll talk to him about it."
Posts: 22497 | Registered: Sep 2000
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posted
Well . . . "you have pretty eyes" or "what nice hair you have" are comments frequently made to my children by strangers. I don't really think there's anything wrong with that.
And I can't help but think that nobody would think twice about a woman making remarks like those.
Look, saying something like this does no harm to the child. If a guy was present but did't say them, he'd still be present. I think it's actively ogling that crosses the line, or offering to put kids on your lap for no discernable reason, or expressing appreciation for body parts that are often sexualized.
Posts: 1112 | Registered: Jan 2003
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