posted
On a somewhat related note, in the nearby town of (I believe) LaCrosse, Wisconsin, a young man died after overdosing on alcohol at one of the campus bars. His parents are now suing the University for offering a shuttle service for students who have been drinking (because they claim if he'd had to drive, he wouldn't have drank so much) and for running alcohol-related ads in the student paper (which seems to be a much more viable claim to me).
There is incredible interest in how to be effective in reducing the harms of alcohol at college campuses. It doesn't look like never allowing your teenagers to drink is particularly protective, as the predominance of fatalities are not in experienced drinkers.
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I hate to say it, but if I ever have kids, when they turn 18, I'm going to get them stinking drunk so the idea of alcohol isn't a strange and exotic mystery, nor is it some enigmatic ritual of adulthood.
posted
I'm hoping to learn something from other countries where this isn't a primary problem for their young adults. Jimminy cricket, it is a shame.
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quote: His parents are now suing the University for offering a shuttle service for students who have been drinking (because they claim if he'd had to drive, he wouldn't have drank so much)
posted
Yeah. I think it's probably on the advice of counsel.
My good friend (an MD/JD) argues pretty persuasively that more lawyers should be held accountable by the courts for bringing frivolous suits and/or using frivolous grounds. I can see her point. On the one hand, I want the best representation possible for all sides (and I am aware that often the facts of the story are misrepresented in the press, so this may be much different than it appears), but on the other hand, this does seem outrageous.
I'd be open to comment to change my mind, too, BTW.
[ September 08, 2004, 01:36 PM: Message edited by: Sara Sasse ]
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posted
It ticks me off anytime someone is sued for not stopping others from acting like the idiots they are.
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posted
Were I in their position, I expect I'd be grasping at anything which made me feel less responsible in any way for any of this. I blame the counsel more than I blame the parents. What a horrible time for that family.
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posted
It's been an accepted thing for years in alcohol abuse prevention people on college campuses that the kids (excepting frat idiots) who get into major problems with drinking are ones that have had very limited exposure to alcohol prior to college. The theory is that they react to the unfettered environment by throwing them into situations that they are completely unprepared for.
To be honest, I think a sort of informal drinking orientation thing for kids like this might actually help avoid a lot of alcohol related problems by helping people understand their limits. I know that this is what we did for my friends in college who didn't know how to drink.
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posted
I think most freshman orientations at state Us address this. I know UIUC was piloting a study of an interactive CD to address problem drinking decisions, and it was being studied across the country. It seemed to help, and people actually used it. Sort of like a realistic video game.
Edit: they don't give alcohol, but they teach you how to use alcohol more safely (spacing out drinks, eating, etc.), even though the kids are still minors.
[ September 08, 2004, 01:50 PM: Message edited by: Sara Sasse ]
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posted
Eh, so kids like to drink poison for fun. This is an unalterable truth. It's stupid to worry about it.
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posted
I started drinking late in life, but I had a fairly well-versed friend who walked me through the basics until I figured out my limitations.
But too many kids who have no idea of the impact of a beer and the importance of food in absorbing the impact of alcohol, never mind the consequences of trying 24 drinks in a row.
And in some respects its like sex ed - if you don't deal in specifics, abstract generalizations aren't going to help much. And in the absence of fact, kids will fall back on things like, "oh, you can't get pregnant the first time."
posted
Trevor, instead of getting him or her stinking drunk one time, why not provide small to moderate amounts of alcohol on a more frequent basis, to teach how alcohol can be enjoyed without being abused? I'm not sure how much one learns from being stinking drunk anyway. Some people seem to learn that it's cool or enjoyable.
I do agree though (obviously) with the premise that those who are completely sheltered from alcohol are at increased risk.
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posted
Because until you've spent a night in happy-go-pukey land and the resulting hangover the next morning, you don't appreciate the full impact of what drinking can do.
And binge drinking is worse, never mind the possibility of alcohol poisoning.
Until I mis-calculated the strength of the mixed drinks I was pouring, I didn't realize just how drunk I was. Of course, I ended up on the floor and unable to crawl to the bathroom down the hall before my techni-color yawn.
The only time I've ever had alcohol is in church, and once when my parents gave me a bit of whiskey in my tea to make me stop coughing. I don't drink, and I never want to. Not because I think it's wrong or something, just because I DO understand its effects, and know I don't want them.
You can learn just as well through experiences other than getting drunk.
I, for instance learned from two things: Medicines (I don't like anything that changes anything in the way I act, even if it is just to make me sleepy) And from my best friend's family getting sued after some idiot boy drank himself to death. I understand how far reaching effects can be from alcohol. And I don't want it.
quote: Because until you've spent a night in happy-go-pukey land and the resulting hangover the next morning, you don't appreciate the full impact of what drinking can do.
I echo Toretha – Crap.
I had a lovely reminder this weekend of one reason I don’t drink – an encounter with a woman who’d had a bit too much and started an argument in public. She carried her liquor well and it wasn’t immediately evident that she was drunk, but it was immediately evident that her grasp of reality was severely different than that of most people in the room.
I find the idea of losing control of myself and behaving like a hostile illogical idiot much more terrifying than a day of headache and puking. And while I’ve never had a hangover, I’ve had a bad enough case of food poisoning to know just how much fun headaches and puking are not. But I’d still take that any day over making a drunken ass of myself in public. So for me, staying sober and observing is a much better deterrent than getting myself into a state where I wouldn’t recognize my own stupidity. (Although if I remembered it the next day, I suppose the resulting humiliation would be an effective deterrent. Assuming I ever crawled back out from under the bed.)
For the longest time, I didn't drink - for various reasons. When I decided to start, I could have gotten myself into a lot of trouble until I learned the hard way. Fortunately, I had some guidance on the subject and he kept me from making stupid, reckless mistakes from inexperience.
posted
I think you can learn from your mistakes, but that doesn't mean it's the only way or the best way to learn, or that leading your kids into mistakes is the best way to teach them. I'm all for exposure, demystifying, communication, etc.
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posted
that wasn't a new one at all, my grandmother had been doing that for her kids, it used to be a relatively common home-thing. And it worked, I was able to stop coughing and sleep.
And alcohol is not an uncommon ingredient in over the counter cough medicines
That is like saying "you must try a cigarette in order to understand how addictive they are". You can understand addictions (and alcohol effects) without having to try it first hand.
Some people have a pre-disposition to alcoholism (if alcoholism runs in their family). For them to "try" alcohol just to prove a point, or to "learn" about alcohol, could be extremely disasterous...
posted
You know, a lot of kids get fat for the first time attending college and having total control over what food to eat for the first time. I think it would make a lot of sense to just get them fat before they leave home. [/sarcastic analogy]
What makes the difference is not what they actually are allowed to do before hitting college, it is what degree of responsibilty they exercise before that.
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posted
Toretha - sorry, I meant "a new one to me."
Pook - ah yes, the infamous freshman fifteen.
And why do the kids pack on fifteen pounds or so during their first year?
The reasons vary, but the new freedom and responsibility of setting their schedules, selecting their own meals and so on is new and unfamiliar.
As for the cigarette analogy, I'm not proposing turning them into drunks and alcoholics. What I am going to do is help guide them into a world they will enter, with or without my help.
I will grant you, some things you can't try first and then make a decision to never touch again - most of the hard illegal drugs fall quite easily into that category. And I sincerely hope my kids will have enough common sense to avoid things like crack, acid, speed and so on. I certainly intend to give them as much reality as I can before I turn them loose into a very unforgiving world.
But how many parents automatically assumed their kids were bright enough not to indulge in binge drinking? The same parents who assumed their kids, when much younger, knew enough not to play with handguns? Or parents who figured their kids knew that you most certainly could get pregnant the first time?
Farmgirl - and depending on my hypothetical wife's family history, the introduction to alcohol may or may not happen.
If her father and all her aunts and uncles are infamous alcoholics, then no - I think my hypothetical kids will have had plenty of opportunity to witness first-hand the consequences of drinking to excess and hopefully will understand the genetic pre-disposition to alcoholism.
But the social pressure to drink can be very strong and depending on my kids, I'd rather know they have some appreciation for what they're doing instead of learning the hard way and possibly dying in the back room of a frat house.
Of course, I'm the same guy who has every intention of teaching my kids hand-to-hand combat. Go figure.
posted
This is an interesting thread to me. I never understood the "freshman 15" and none of my roommates ever seemed to have issues either. I actually weighed less at the end of my freshman year, than I did before, even though our cafeteria was one of the best in the country.
On the drinking, yes I do drink. However I've never actually had a major hangover no matter how sloshed I get. Some people just don't get them. How do you deal with that Trevor, if your kid is one of those? And the effect alcohol has on what I say especially, is nowhere near as embarrassing for me as the effect sleep deprivation has on what I say. (As some of you at Kama Con are vividly aware <grin>)
AJ
(grumble, sleep deprivatoin also makes my spelling as bad as when I'm drunk...)
posted
I'm thinking some kids learn by personal experience, and some learn by trying to avoid the personal experiences of others, and some learn in other ways. Everyone is different.
Teach your kids what is right. Beyond that, it's up to them to DO what's right. You can't anticipate how your child is going to react to a certain object lesson with 100% accuracy.
If my dad had encouraged me to have a drink to learn how it affects me, I would have laughed in his face.
edit: I mean, what can you do beyond talking with them about the effects of alcohol, showing them statistics of deaths by drunk driving, explain to them about jail time and suspended licenses from DUI's, and stuff like that? If they don't learn from THAT, then what's going to teach them? Maybe getting stone drunk once will, but I don't think doing it in your house is somehow a better object lesson than doing it a frat party. All it does is make them aware that their dad's okay with it, instead of opposed. [Not to mention the fact that a ton of college students get wasted every weekend and I don't see them clamoring for prohibition in their schools.]
"Drinking's bad and can kill you and other people! So how about a little experience with it?"
posted
I tend not to get hangovers either, except with one notable experience with a "Mongolian Mother-fragger".
And I would like to believe I have a fundamental understanding of my children, what makes them tick and how they think and that I won't delude myself into believing what I want to be true and not what's actually present or not, as the case may be.
posted
Trevor: I think we'd all like to believe that, but people are an enigma. My kids are young, it's true, but I'm constantly amazed at how they do the opposite of what I expect them to do.
It's always a sad story when someone is a model person through high school, hits college, and goes wild. You never know what people are going to do with that new sense of freedom and quasi-grown-up-ness.
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quote: And I would like to believe I have a fundamental understanding of my children, what makes them tick . . .
I wish I had such an understanding!
quote: [Not to mention the fact that a ton of college students get wasted every weekend and I don't see them clamoring for prohibition in their schools.]
I think this is a very telling point.
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posted
And if my kids decided to get wasted to excess on campus with their buddies, at least they'll know enough to understand the consequences of their actions.
PSI - I don't expect to turn them off to alcohol. What I do expect is to let them discover what alcohol is in a controlled setting where they can figure out first hand what's going to happen. I'd rather this scenario play out under my watchful eye and not in a bar and have things go horribly wrong.
"Drinking to excess is bad and potentially dangerous, here's why. A moderate amount of drinking can indeed be fun and relaxing, but it's a temporary feeling. The dangers of alcohol include liver damage, brain damage and the social consequences of being out of control are as follows."
Yes, Dad is ok with them drinking. Dad thinks trying to down 24 shots in the course of an hour is a stupid thing to do and I love you too much to have you die from a lack of knowledge.
posted
PSI, Icarus - that's kinda my point. Better people than I have failed to realize they may not have an understanding of their children.
But I don't want them falling prey to the idea that alcohol is harmless and drinking 20+ shots in an hour is even remotely a good thing. It's one thing to intellectually understand you will have impaired reflexes and coordination, it's quite another to realize you can't stand up without help, never mind trying to walk.
A relative aside: I cringed when my cousin was telling a story about how she expects one of her nephews to be holding a funnel and a beer keg over her daughter's mouth in a frat party. And she didn't seem to mind.
posted
I have to admit that I have, like, zero personal experience with alcohol, aside from hot toddies and one glass of Cella Lambrusco that I liked so much that I vowed to never drink it again.
So I may not know what I'm talking about in this next sentence:
But isn't it an oxymoron, or at least way wrong, to use the word "control" when talking about drinking? I mean, my mom always said she'd never drink and drive, but try telling that to a drunk person who's decided they want more beer. The effects of alcohol are such that you lose your inhibitions, and I'd hate to think I have ANY control over what I do when I'm drunk. That could be a fatal mistake.
That's why I don't get drunk in the first place.
edit: To change a dependent clause into an independent one
So in answer to your question, not a freaking clue. Which is why I said, "I'd like to think I know, but at the same time not be deluding myself into believing something that isn't true."
In some respects, it's like not telling my kids about condoms because I expect them to wait until marriage. I am perfectly content with connecting the dots, giving them information and hoping they make the decision I'd prefer they made.
posted
See, I plan on teaching my kids about condoms as part of their sexual education. I'm just going to suggest that they save condom use until after they are married, if they really want to use them. : )
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I have had inhibitions lowered, but not so much so I would have thought some things a good idea. But I can also say with only one or two exceptions, I haven't done anything particularly reckless, wild or uncontrolled.
But control can most often mean, "I've only had two beers, but I haven't eaten anything today which means it'll be hitting me hard in another ten minutes or so. Which means I'd better forgo another beer and have something to eat."
Or "no thanks, I'd rather not try to down 20+ shots, sorry."
In this case, it's about knowing your limits and respecting the situation.
posted
Heh, I decided to rephase my initial reaction to your post.
But you're doing the same thing I'm suggesting (more or less - "hey kids, here are the facts. Now, I hope you decide to wait until marriage before having sex, but these things are important because..."
posted
PSI, I don't understand this could you clarify?
quote:, and I'd hate to think I have ANY control over what I do when I'm drunk.
I may be the exception and not the rule, and I admit I've never gotten so drunk I passed out, though I have vomited a couple of times. The fact is I've never actually been able to stop thinking during any point at the drunkeness process. In fact my friends who were with me the first time I actually did a lot of drinking, were laughing, because I was still so completely myself it was rediculous. I was sitting there analyzing the effects on my coordination (which is already bad to begin with) and going, "Oh so that's what they meant."
Now maybe I'm the exception not the rule. Obviously the people who have problems do often seem to change personalities while drunk. But it doesn't happen to everyone either.
To put it another way, to this day I can't remember a single thing I've said or done while drunk (and I don't forget anything more while drunk than I do sober either) that I really regret. I can think of lots of stuff I've said without a drop of alcohol in my veins that I do.
posted
Trevor- Well, on my end it's different, because I believe that drinking is a really bad idea, regardless of how it's used. I don't believe that condoms are bad, nor do I believe that using condoms is bad.
AJ- To answer that requires a whole explanation of my entire history. Long story short, it depends on the person, and I can't know how *I* react while drunk without getting drunk at least once, and it's not a risk I'm willing to take, because I already know I'm an alcoholic, based on genetics, family history, and my thoughts and feelings about alcohol that I have to do my darndest to repress.
posted
PSI, When you get drunk you don't lose all form of self-regulation. Millions of people get drunk each day without drinking themselves to death.
As I said, it's pretty much accepted knowledge that the majority of alcohol related problems from college occur with people who haven't had much or any experience with drinking. The people who generally have problems regulating their drinking are those who are metaphorically thrown into deep end of a pool filled with vodka. And one thing I wanted to stress is that it's not just illegal drinking, there's a smaller spike when people turn 21 and tart drinking legally for the first time too.
The thing is, when you're working at a college at you're concerned about kids and alcohol, you don't have the option of choosing the kids you get. They're going to drink, generally to excess. If this occurs in the current situation, someone of them are going to die and others are going to severely screw up. You don't have the luxury of looking down on them with moral disapproval, you're job is to try to prevent as many of them from having problems.
We're talking about one way to do that, which, from my anecdotal experience, worked in the cases I used it on (I was the drinking instructor for many of my friends). I'm suggesting that if colleges atarted a sort of informal program where those who wanted could get instruction in the use of alcohol, they would likely cut down on the number of alcohol related problems they have.
Drinking is a recreational activity that carries with it many risks, but then so do many other recreational activities. One of the problems we have with alcohol as a culture is that, in many circles, it's hyped as a great recreational activity, but the dominant culture cuts down on opportunities for people to attenuate the risks.
If we lived in a world where college kids weren't going to drink themselves to death, then yes, teaching them how to drink responsibly would be unnecessary and might facilitate more people starting to drink, but we don't live in that world. The question is, is people's moral indignation of people drinking sufficient so that they can justify not supporting steps that will significantly cut down on the number of kids dying from alcohol related issues?
Well, to be fair, it could also be that they don't think that taking steps like I mentioned would reduce these deaths and problems, but if this is your contention, I hope that they have more to back it up than an attitude that drinking is wrong.
edit: Because I think it might have come across as more accusatory than I wanted it to.
posted
I’d like to make a distinction. I have no problem with teaching people to drink responsibly. I just don’t think that Trevor’s suggestion of getting his kids puking-drunk when they turn 18 qualifies.
I don’t drink at all. Bob does. I don’t think less of him for it, and if our kids choose to drink I won’t think less of them for it. But I don’t think getting drunk is an experience they should have to have before they make that choice. And, in general, I think negative object lessons are ineffective and often rebound.
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posted
Well, I didn't say that it's wrong to give kids some instruction on how to drink responsibly. I said that every kid is different, so to approach it from the position that "that's the best way for them to learn" isn't very valid. I said that explaining to them, in graphic detail, the consequences of drinking is a better starting point. I was kinda squicked out by the idea that Trevor would let his kids drink around him, especially at 18, when it is illegal. I think that there are more things wrong with that than just drinking.
I do plan on teaching my kids that alcohol is a dangerous thing, but I do not plan on teaching them that it is wrong, sinful, or evil to drink. I didn't even say that in any of my posts. I only said that it's a bad idea. Voluntarily consuming something for the sole purpose of altering your reality? That sounds like a bad idea to me.
I will probably tell my kids that drinking isn't a sin, but that's it's not a very smart thing to get started with. That is true. Considering the high rate of alcoholism in my family, I would explain to my children that, while everyone is different and people react differently to alcohol, our kids are more likely to develop dangerous life-habits if they start. If they want to know more about drinking, I'm not going to beat them over the head. I will answer as honestly as I can.
As far as education in schools, which no one had even mentioned until now, let alone me, I don't see anything wrong with that, if you are dealing with kids that are of, or nearing, legal drinking age.
If I say that I think drinking is a bad idea, and that I think it's a bad idea to let your underaged kids get drunk at home for the sole purpose of teaching them to drink "responsibly", that does not equate to "Shelter your kids from alcohol! Tell them it's evil! Refuse to talk about it! Fight the people that want to talk about it in college!" You jumped to about fifty conclusions.
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quote: I was kinda squicked out by the idea that Trevor would let his kids drink around him, especially at 18, when it is illegal. I think that there are more things wrong with that than just drinking.
Well, see, I plan to do this. Wine was available to me at the dinner table from childhood on, and I think it lead me to have a mature view of alcohol. You seem to equate drinking at all with drinking enough to get drunk, and I don't agree with you on that. I certainly do want my children to have exposure to alcohol while I am around, as opposed to when I am not. And I could not care less what the law thinks about it; the law against a parent giving his or her child any alcohol at all strikes me as a thoroughly inappropriate invasion of the law into my family's private life.
I also do not agree, by the way, that the sole purpose of drinking is to alter your reality.
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posted
PSI, I have this thing I do where I respond directly to something people said and then expand on the things I touched on in that reponse. Maybe I'm not doing a good job of showing this, but when I respond directly to a point and then move on from there, I'm not necessarily attributing the wider stuff to the person I initially responded to. That's why I edited out the places where I said you (I meant the general you) and replaced it with people.
I try to talk about general things that I see without trying to tie them to any specific person. If what I said in the expanded section applies to you, then it applies to you. If it doesn't, then it doesn't. I wasn't saying one way or the other. My concern was talking about the general case (although in some cases I'm trying to reflect back what I interpreted that person to be saying). To me, it's up to the individual person to decide whether or not what I'm saying really applies to them, as I'm usually neither sure nor all that concerned about whether or not it does.
I think I'm going to need to come up with a better way of differentiating between replies to a point made to a specific person and the more general expansion I move on from there.
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posted
My problem isn't with the law and the parent's rights, my problem was with teaching your children to value the law. Yes, I believe that if a law is blatantly wrong, I will not teach my child to follow it simply because it is a law. But, when I see a law as something that benefits most people, and is a pretty good idea in general, I will teach my kids to honor that.
Of course, I'm the person that won't change lanes near an intersection, even if no one else is on the road.
---
MrS: I didn't read your post after the edit, I had already moved on. Perhaps a second reading on my part would give me a better idea about what you meant.
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