Communism was a "necessary evil" that God allowed to happen in the 20th century in order to create opportunities for good after its demise, Pope John Paul says in his new book.
[snip]
"To me it was quite clear that Communism would last much longer than Nazism had done. For how long? It was hard to predict," he writes.
"There was a sense that this evil was in some way necessary for the world and for mankind. It can happen, in fact, that in certain particular human situations, evil is revealed as somehow useful inasmuch as it creates opportunities for good."
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The whole concept that "this happened for a reason" just bugs me. Millions of people being forced to suffer so others can benefit from it, I'm sorry, I can't get my head around it. I strongly suspect that things just happen, and that good or evil may come of them, but there is no Grand Design behind it.
Then again, this may be related to why the Book of Job is directly responsible to my leaving the Christian faith...
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posted
Chris I think it's distressing, as a Christian myself, to hear that Job caused you to lose faith.
And I certainly would be willing to go into this, but I know my remarks won't be well received on this board...so I'll just say that if you ever want to discuss Job with someone or talk about the issue of why God allows evil in the world and allows suffering, I'll be happy to talk to you via email.
I'm not saying I have the answers - I think no one living has the true "answers" but I'll tell you how I have come to peace over the issues.
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posted
Hmm. I think there is a significant difference between saying God can use human mistakes and even evil for good, or bring good out of evil, and saying that God deliberately caused or allowed evil in order to bring opportunities for good.
So I’m going to disagree with the Pope on this one.
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posted
If he heard it taught the way I heard it in my honor's "Intellectual Traditions of the West" course, I can see how that would happen. I think the class should have been retitled "Indoctrinations of Secular Naturalism". Any defense of ideas that supported Christianity were promptly discredited, and it was made clear that such ideas were intellectually naive.
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posted
Communism as a necessary evil. Hmmm. Is the Pope actually agreeing with the Darwinian concept of cultural evolution? It certainly can be argued.
I never read Job before but this thread got me interested in it. I only had time for the first 5 chapters. So...I dunno if I got this right, but does bad stuff happen to us because God likes to gamble with Satan just so He can prove a point? Because, I'd hate to believe God is an impressionable Deity that Satan can coax into performing dispicable acts. If God already made His point with Job, why continue making it throughout history? Maybe I need to finish reading the Book.
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posted
Job frustrates me. The concept of God letting bad things happen to people frustrates me even more.
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I hate that the good parts about communism have been confounded with such ideas as totalitarianism and religious intolerance.
Honestly, in my ideal society there would be little difference between how much a doctor makes and how much a car mechanic makes. Both would have every need met, plus a few luxuries. Everyone would choose the career they love, and everyone would have a community job they did once a week.
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posted
Good points, Amka... I was thinking that Communism, as a theory, isn't all bad. But Mao, Stalin, Lenin, all of them... What jerks.
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posted
I would have to disagree with the Pope on this as well.
There is God actually causing unwarranted harm on people as Evil.
There is God fulfilling promises he made for disobedience which causes harm, which is fulfilment and not "evil".
There is God allowing evil to do it's work in order for Justice to be fair thereby allowing people to choose to do evil acts and be responsible for them and their condemnation, just.
God allows evil to happen so that people literally have the choice to go to heaven or go to hell.
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posted
Job is my favorite example of why quoting Bible verses out of context is a bad idea. It’s got a whole series of long speeches by Job’s friends about God, and then, at the end of the story, God shows up and tells them they “haven’t spoken rightly.” But if you don’t read all the way to chapter 42 you don’t know that all of those speeches, some of which sound quite pious and plausible, are against the point the book is trying to make.
And I’ve seen bits from those speeches quoted, used in proof-texting, and even done in cute little needlepoint samplers. ::shakes head::
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posted
Kinda feeling my way around this, as I don't want to offend my friends (or my wife) who are Christian, but here's the general idea.
The church I was raised in (Southern Baptist) believed in strict interpretation of the Bible. If the Bible says something happened, it happened.
The Book of Job tells the story of God and Satan and the trials Job undergoes when God allows Satan to torment him. As a kid I was disturbed by it. God let him pick on that guy, just to prove a point? Why? As a teenager and as an adult, I was finding many more inconsistencies that I couldn't come to terms with. And one of the biggest remained Job.
God told Satan to do what he wanted as long as he didn't touch Job himself. So, in quick succession, Job lost his oxen, asses, servants, sheep, more servants, camels, more servants, and finally all his sons and daughters. Still, he blessed God. So Satan talked God into letting him visit pestilence onto Job himself. No luck. Job's wife counseled him to curse God. His three friends argued with him for chapters. Finally Job loses faith, whereupon God comes down on him hard. Job apologizes, God tells his friends to bring him stuff, he has more sons and daughters (and the daughters are total babes), all is well.
What I learned from this:
The God in Job is childish, petty, cruel, and does not care about his people. The book reads to me like children persecuting a pet and then getting upset because the pet yowled. Because Job gets a new set of kids, that makes the wholesale murder of the first set all right? A good and pious man can be tortured, not to make him a better man, but just to prove a point to someone else?
That's the message I got from the Book of Job. That was not the God I wished to believe in.
Many years later I read an explanation by John Shelby Spong that postulated Job was written as a cautionary tale for the many Jews being persecuted or kept in captivity. "Keep believing," the message was. "No matter what, for you will be rewarded later on." It was a powerful message that, among other things, was designed to keep the Jewish people strong in their faith despite the domination of other cultures and religions. I can believe that.
I can't believe in the God of Job. It's not the only reason I am not a Christian, but it's a strong one.
Belle - thank you. I really appreciate the offer, and who knows? I might take you up on it someday. But just the suggestion helps remind me of the good things in Christianity.
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posted
I grew up 7th Day Adventist. And I feel the same way about that part of the bible. It makes little sense to me and seems terribly unfair and is one of the many reasons why I have trouble with Christianity. As is some other reason...
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posted
Dana, I don't think he said God made it happen. I'm pretty sure the Catholic position is that God allows evil and doesn't originate it... that would be Calvinists who believe that.
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posted
I have a whole lot of trouble with the concept that God "made this bad thing happen to test this person" or miraculously kept one person from getting on a flight where everyone else perished. I beleive God allows free will, and beautiful and terrible things both happen as a result of human free will. If I thought God caused women to get raped so they could practice forgiveness or children to die because their parents had a lesson to learn, well, I would not put my faith in that God.
posted
You're right, "do what he wanted" was imprecise.
King James Bible, Job Chapter 2:
4 And Satan answered the LORD, and said, Skin for skin, yea, all that a man hath will he give for his life. 5 But put forth thine hand now, and touch his bone and his flesh, and he will curse thee to thy face. 6 And the LORD said unto Satan, Behold, he is in thine hand; but save his life.
So "do what you want, just don't kill him" would be more accurate.
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quote: "There was a sense that this evil was in some way necessary for the world and for mankind. It can happen, in fact, that in certain particular human situations, evil is revealed as somehow useful inasmuch as it creates opportunities for good."
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The whole concept that "this happened for a reason" just bugs me. Millions of people being forced to suffer so others can benefit from it, I'm sorry, I can't get my head around it. I strongly suspect that things just happen, and that good or evil may come of them, but there is no Grand Design behind it.
I don't have a problem with what the Pope said because in one sense it's the way humans work. We work by trial and error. We don't really know if something is evil until we've tried it out. Sometimes to learn, we must fall.
BTW, I do reject that everything about communism is or was evil.
Which isn't to say that the way the ideal was often realized was not evil.
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posted
As I understood it, Job was a kind of "wisdom story", not a true to life, prophet-written book in the Bible. I don't know if that's just for LDS or for all Christianity (well, nothing's ever for all Christianity but you get the point). Not that I don't think it gives some good lessons, but if you're really caught up in the conversation between God and Satan, keep that in mind.
[EDIT: I realize "true-to-life" wouldn't describe any story in the Bible for a non-believer, I'm, of course, refering to "true-to-life" for someonee who believes that the Bible is a divinly inspired book. ]
posted
Sorry Jim, I should have been more precise. I disagree with either the belief that God initiates evil, or that God deliberately allows it because it creates an opportunity for a good response. I understand that the pope was suggesting the latter, not the former.
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posted
DKW, can you comment on my Job as not being a true story? Or suspicions there of? All I know is the LDS side, and even that was a while ago and kind of foggy in my memory.
posted
Hobbes’ Job is not a true story. He is, in fact, an unemployed student. I don’t know why he’s been telling people he has a job, but I expect it’s to impress girls. (Or at least a girl.)
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posted
Note to self: when you mean to type the phrase "speculation on", type it, especially if DKW will ever read it.
[EDIT: Actually, that would aslo be kind of a crap sentance. Perhaps, "My vague remembrance about the Bibilcal story of Job not being a true account, but rather a kind of allegory"]
Among non-literalist biblical scholars, there’s pretty general consensus that the book of Job does not describe a historical event. It’s a wisdom tale, an artistically crafted document (the majority of the book is poetry) written to challenge some basic premises and resist easy answers, while ultimately affirming faith in God.
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posted
I'm wondering if there's translation problems. "In some sense necessary" is the part that gives me pause. My understanding is that God permits evil through free will, and works to get some good out of every evil.
posted
DKW, Isn't that the whole tale of redemption, though? God allowed a terrible evil in the crucifixion, or even in the fall, in order that tremendous good might be brought from it.
How do you get around "the problem of pain", otherwise without sacrficing Omnipotence or even Omniscience?
And please forgive me if I was presumptive in calling you by your first name... I'm honestly not sure why I did that, but I have a friend who insists I'm belittling her when I do. I intended nothing of the sort.
(and, no, this is not to say that I was at all bothered by your use of mine... it just made me realize I had done it)
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posted
First, you’re welcome to use my first name. I shortened your screen name because whenever I type it out I find myself wanting to type Jim-You and the temptation was becoming irresistible.
I think it comes down to motivation. I certainly believe that God does not prevent all evil, though God could. But I don’t believe that God weighs particular events and says, “okay, I’ll allow these people to suffer because it will create this situation, which is good. Rather, I think, as Dagonee said, that God does not interfere with free will, but then works to bring good out of the situations that we mess up. And btw, I rank the crucifixion up there among the top “situations that we messed up.” If Jesus had come to earth and humanity had embraced his teachings, I think God would have been thrilled and the crucifixion would not have happened. (Granted, I think that God knew that that would not be the case. Does inevitable = necessary?)
posted
Oh, and Chris – I have one major dispute with your summation of Job. (Well, a couple, but one really big one.) Nowhere in the book does it say that Job lost faith. In fact, I think that one of the main points of the book is that sometimes getting exceedingly pissed off is a faithful act.
My major problem -- even beyond God acting (IMO) snippy at the end -- was that apparently killing Job's kids, not to mention his servants, was in any way justified in the story, and yet it was delivered to me as an example of why I should Believe.
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posted
As a religious person who believes in the Bible, my own personal take on Job is that he was probably a real person, and much of what is recounted in the Book of Job actually happened to him, but that a frame story was inserted in order to make more of a lesson out of it. That is, although I believe in both God and Lucifer/Satan, I don't believe the conversations between the two of them actually took place, nor that God gave permission to Satan to torment Job, nor even that Satan caused the tragedies that befell him.
I think the point of the story is that bad things happen even to good people, and that there is no easy answer as to why they have to suffer, but that through it all there are appropriate ways to respond to life and to God.
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posted
Only initially. Ultimately, I have problems with two of the major underlying elements of Christianity. I don't believe in Original Sin of any kind, and I don't believe in the concept of the scapegoat. Both seem to me to be ways of sidestepping personal responsibility at one level or another. Plus there's all those odd little incongruities...
I do believe in mankind's ability-slash-need to impose order on the universe, and I recognize that I could easily be wrong. I'm not agnostic because I can't decide, I'm agnostic because I truly don't know and refuse to choose based on what sounds good.
And, really, is there any reason why God's allowance of the murder of Job's children should be viewed as acceptable or praiseworthy, even as allegory?
I should mention that my leaving was not a fast or an easy decision, but it was a pretty thorough one. I have decided to be as good a secular person as it's possible to be, just to spite any potential Deities or Foes out there.
[ October 07, 2004, 08:47 PM: Message edited by: Chris Bridges ]
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posted
I didn’t mean to imply that I thought it was the sole reason you are agnostic. I still think it’s sad that you were subjected to it, though.
Edit: and I'd still think it was sad even if you were still a Christian. Sloppy Bible interpretation is bad news even when it doesn't drive people away.
posted
Chris, if it's not too personal, can you expand on "I don't believe in the concept of the scapegoat." I think I know what you mean by that, but don't want to presume.
posted
Chris, what do you mean by "Original Sin", anyway? I can think of several churches that would be startled to hear that described as a basic element of Christianity. I'm not so sure about the scapegoat issue, though.
I wouldn't try to persuade you at this late date, but I hope you have carefully thought it all through and considered your options.
[Edit: to Dag--that was an interesting little event...you on one segment and I on the other.]
posted
I suspect he's saying that the concept it being necessary for Jesus to die to redeem our sins doesn't make sense to him. That's something I eventually came to struggle with: both the necessity and the sufficiency of it.
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Anyway, I have only one thing to add, and that is that where matters of faith are concerned, there's never an end. To me, even if Job had ultimately rejected God and all he stood for, it wouldn't be a reason to quit having faith right along with him. What makes Job's story worth knowing is that he kept his faith even when he was encouraged to let it go with quite logical and appealing arguments.
My own personal conclusions is that nobody really knows God's will and all we have is our own abilities and our own faith. For some of us, that means even getting to the point of denying God's existence. (or more typically -- I don't know if God exists, but what you tell me about God doesn't ring true, so I don't think God is what you say God is.)
Some of us get close to that and say "I believe in God, but what you tell me about God doesn't make sense, so I don't believe YOU..." (the negative reaction to organized religion is of this type.)
Then there are those who adopt a particular creed but agree that others might have a similarly good handle on God, but this particular faith "fits" so I'm sticking with it.
Then there are those who truly believe that one particular faith has it all correct, and so they can't imagine that any faith that contradicts theres in any way can possibly be correct.
Then there are the very small minority of people who are in this latter category and can't seem to keep their opinions to themselves and feel like it is their duty to save the poor beknighted savages that the rest of the world must be.
It is only people in this last category who, I think, are a problem in the world. If they are right, they are a problem because they spend so much time alienating others who might otherwise come to that true faith.
On the other hand, the most likely reality is that these folks are just boorish versions of people who hold strongly to a given faith. What others belief is truly none of their business. Unless they decide to make it their business.
Sometimes the Pope gets into this mode, by the way...speaking as if He really is God's representative on Earth, instead of the holy and reveared leader of the Catholic Church.
But usually the pope is content to spread a general message and not attempt to enforce Catholicism's age-old claims of proprietary interest in Christianity.
And the others who are agressive proponents of "my faith or you're going to hell..." They deserve our pity, honestly. They are like Job's friends. Telling him "you must be doing something wrong..." or "curse God" Or "do this and it'll all be okay..." Or whatever.
They mean well, but they are just a pain in the @ss.
And they make it harder for people to have a relationship with God because nobody wants to become "like them!"
Okay, so what has this got to do with God permitting versus causing evil? And the truth of Job?
The truth, for me, is that Job had a sense of God that was between him and God. That was stronger than the hurt and the suffering because it was founded on what Job believed about God. If you know people of strong faith and conviction, you can see this in their lives.
That's why there's a story of Job, because we need examples of people who quietly live their lives keeping true to their faith. They show us what faith means.
I don't believe for an instant that someone recorded this "deal" between God and Satan. That's a layering on the story. The kernel fo the story isn't that. If Job knew about the experiment, he would still have trusted God.
That's the kernel.
As for the idea of a "necessary evei." I think the best one can say is that without being omniscient ourselves, God is pretty inscrutable. If we can't individually figure out God's plan for ourselves (our individualized plan), how can we hope to know what God's plan for world is at any given point in time. Let alone for grand sweeps of history like that covered by the Communist era?
Another point to ponder is whether Communism is truly evil. Maybe the book only talks about Soviet Communism and the aberrations of Stalin??? I haven't read it. But in other implementations of Communism, that whole "religion is the opiate of the masses" stuff wasn't really taken all that seriously. At least not for very long.
Oh well...sorry to ramble. I really just came in here to read dkw's joke to Hobbes.
Don't mind me. Go back to your original discussion...
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posted
Icarus -- someday try searching through the text for mention of the blood of the innocent person...blood of sacrifice...blood of the lamb, etc. (note: it helps to have software for this. Search on "Sword Project to download free stuff with search capabilities).
I'm not saying it will begin to make sense, but there is a cultural and religious continuity there that makes the whole symbolism of it "click."
posted
Pretty much. By all tenets of Christianity, I cannot be considered "Christian" unless I accept Christ as my personal saviour. I don't. I think that I bear the responsibility for my own actions, always and forever. I believe that maturity truly begins when you realize that your actions have consequences and that you bear responsibility for both. The scapegoat system washes that away, tells me I can get into heaven as long as I believe that Jesus took my sins upon himself, and I can't accept that. This is an extremely simplistic answer, by the way, but I could type on this all night.
Original Sin: I don't believe that I (or anyone) was born sinful. I especially don't believe that I should be blamed or need to be saved for something Adam and Eve supposedly did.
I suspect that if the Old Testament had never been taught to me, I might have remained Christian for longer. I can't see how the two Testaments can be reconciled, and the mental gymnastics necessary to explain why what the desert God said in the first half has been replaced by what his gentler son said in the second got to me after a while.
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posted
That is exactly the same way I feel, Chris. The concept of Original Sin makes me feel uneasy, plus, it is somewhat unfair for everyone to suffer because of the sins of two people.
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