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Author Topic: Dear hatrackers (an apology)
Peter
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For those who don't know, I started a knew topic recently(last week sometime), talking about a 'debate' I had with a guy in one of my classes. Little did I know that the talk about the debate would soon turn into a debate itself. Still this does not excuse how i behaved. I was childish and I want to apologize, so, I'm sorry.

There were several points in everyone else's posts that frustrated me to no end. At first, i thought this to be because they views expressed in them were so idiotic. I now see that they upset me because I had no immediate response, and this is not something I was used to. Still this is no reason to act this way. I am used to be one of the more intelligent people around me, and those that are more intelligent agree with me on almost every point. The fact that there were people who could outsmart me amazed and confused me. In response I became on of the kind of people I despise, those who attack others as a way to defend their own views. This is who I became and once again, I am sorry.

I am writting this not to excuse myself, but to explain how i was feeling. Instead of being grateful that some of the more porminent people of Hatrack had showed up and even recognized that there was something worth posting on in my thread.
Specifically, Dagonee and TomDividson found that my topic was worth posting on. I know there were a lot of others who posted, and I thank you for that, but these two are the two that have been (in my experience) very prominent anround hatrack, instead of being thankful for what they said, I became angry.

One last thing, I want to make it clear that i am not asking for forgiveness, just offering my apology to those who may accept it.

Humbly,
Peter

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Bob_Scopatz
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Cool
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Bean Counter
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Wow I missed it! It is amazing how most people judge intelligence by how much the other person agrees with them! I hope you do not feel shy about disagreeing with the mainstream here, it is a surprisingly liberal bunch if you are a Card fan and tend to agree with his essays.

Remember that the ordinary man seeks approval in those around him, a warrior seeks impeccability in himself.

BC

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raventh1
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The wise seek to help all around.
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Bean Counter
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I don't think that is true. Experience has taught me that helping someone often hurts them. The wise are very careful about mucking with anothers Karma. Help a turtle across the road and all you do is piss off the people behind you and the turtle.

BC

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Peter
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P.S.

sorry, I forgot something:

Merry Christmas
[Party] [The Wave] [Party]

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Bean Counter
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Rock on Peter!

BC

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raventh1
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Sometimes the best help is letting go of it, and allowing them to understand it as they deal with it, alone.
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Bean Counter
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Yes
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Ryuko
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Er wait... What? I read Card's books, but I don't agree with ANY of his essays. I rarely even agree with his reviews! And on top of that, I've seen NONE of his essays that could be considered liberal... But whatever.

Peter, I saw the thread and though I didn't see anything from you that warranted apology, I think it's great that you've recognized things that you're not proud of having said and offered an apology. [Smile] Thanks a lot, guy.

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Bean Counter
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Is that not what I said? I often wonder if I am posting in old English or something, I am so often misquoted and misunderstood.

BC

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Dagonee
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[Hat] Peter.

For what it's worth, I only had an issue with the one post I commented on as far as courtesy goes, and I think you got piled on out of proportion to any offense you may have committed. Not that anyone was far out of line, but the collective impact can be overwhelming.

Dagonee

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Noemon
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Is the thread in question still around? I think I must have missed it.
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Dagonee
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Yes, it is. Click on Peter's post count and you'll see it right near the top.
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Noemon
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Ohhh, that thread! Okay, I'd just spaced off who had started it.
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Kayla
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quote:
I am used to be one of the more intelligent people around me, and those that are more intelligent agree with me on almost every point.
Wow, you'll get over that quickly if you hang around here often enough. You'll soon discover that almost everyone here is smarter than you, at least, about something they are. We have lots of people who are really smart and lots that are really educated and even a few who are a bit over-educated. [Wink] On any given subject, you'll find someone who knows more than you do. If you learn how to google really well, you might be able to hide your ignorance for a while (like I did [Evil Laugh] ) but sooner or later, you'll just need to admit to yourself that you aren't God's gift to the world. Your merely one of his gifts and you'll contribute what you can when you can and you'll learn from others that which you don't know.

That and if you really want to sound intelligent here, you might try downloading iespell from www.iespell.com. It's one thing to make silly mistakes in the heat of a fast-moving argument, but continuous spelling errors look like you either don't care enough about your reader, or are just too ignorant to know how to spell or check your spelling. My own personal issues have to do with commas and run-on sentences, but there are lots of grammar Nazis around to point that out when I need them. [Wink]

Bean Counter, I think the secret liberal cabal believes that Hatrack is surprisingly conservative considering most people here are here because of the novels and never knew about the columns until they came to Hatrack. And to them, the novels seem to be the polar opposite of what his conservative columns preach, so they are confused that novels which appeal to liberals somehow brought the conservatives out of the woodwork to torture them. [Wink]

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Sara Sasse
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Merry Christmas, Peter. [Smile]
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Kayla
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See, there's one right now. Sara always knows the exact right thing to say. See the perfect simplicity of her message. No overly wordy paragraphs, no run-on sentences. Perfect.
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katharina
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[Group Hug] I love Hatrack.

Merry Christmas. [Smile]

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Kwea
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quote:
I am so often misquoted and misunderstood.
I understand that she did misunderstand you here in this post, but I don't think that is where most of your problems here stem from.

From what I have seen it stems from you acting like Peter did (or worse) in the thread in question but not being either smart enough or polite enough to apologize for it.

Of the people I know who care one way or another about you here (and there aren't many) I think most of them know exactally where you stand on things. That isn't a problem....lots of people disagree about things here but otherwise get along fine with each other.

The problem isn't your views, it's your attitude about other peoples views.

Hell, the only civilized conversation we have ever had with each other is about D&D, and was only about 4 posts long....

If you can't get along with me here, there is a problem....I don't go around looking for fights, usually, and I like discussing things with people who's views differ from mine.

As long as they are civil, that is, and not out trolling.

Welcome back, for as long as you choose to stay this time!

Kwea

[ December 26, 2004, 01:26 AM: Message edited by: Kwea ]

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sndrake
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Ryuko saith:

quote:
And on top of that, I've seen NONE of his essays that could be considered liberal... But whatever.

Not so fast. You gotta dig a little, but it's there...

Government and the "Free Market"

quote:
By Orson Scott Card January 13, 2003

Government and the "Free Market"

Now that we have a completely Republican government ensconced in Washington, and most Democrats roll over and play dead whenever "the Free Market" is invoked, we face a serious risk of having our economy wrecked the way the IMF has been wrecking economies around the world.

I speak, of course, of the worship of the "Free Market" and the firm belief that in order to make things better, all you need to do is (a) deregulate and (b) stop taxing rich people so much.

Now, the American economy is one of the great social miracles of all time. It is the reason -- the only reason -- that we can afford to be "the world's only superpower." We have so much wealth here that even our poor people are better off than the middle class in many other countries.

But when people start telling you that the reason we're so prosperous is because of "the free market," hold onto your wallet.

The "free market" is only a philosophical concept. It has never actually existed in the real world, because the rich and powerful have always found a way to rig the system so that they and their friends are largely protected from the free market.

Government regulation of the market is the only means yet found to extend to the great mass of people the same kind of protection from the cruelty of the free market that the rich and powerful have always received.

And when the right balance between market regulation and market freedom is found, our economy prospers so much and so long that we have enough surplus to feed the poor, make the rich richer, sustain the infrastructure, pay for government waste, and even fight a war or two.

So let's look at some of the myths that Republicans and free market Democrats so fervently believe in, and see why we must be very careful to make sure we don't "improve" our economy straight to hell.

Deregulation. It's absolutely true that a lot of our regulatory agencies had gotten way out of hand in the 70s and 80s, and needed to be reigned in. They were stifling the ability of businesses to make rational decisions, and they were raising costs without providing much in the way of benefits.

But that didn't mean that all regulations needed to be swept away -- only the ones whose costs were greater than their benefits.

The proper role of regulations is to guarantee certain minimal public benefits. By compelling all businesses to meet those standards, no business is able to gain a competitive advantage by hurting the public good.

For instance, if we did not have laws forbidding child labor, then there would be no shortage of parents willing to let their little children do unskilled labor for ridiculous wages -- because in truly marginal families, the few dollars their children earned could make a significant difference in the family's fortunes.

Minimum wage laws, safety regulations, and laws protecting unions all serve the same purpose: To keep businesses from profiting by making the lives of the Americans who work for them more miserable.

Regulations also protect consumers from shoddy products that we have no ability to research on our own. The FDA, for instance, tests drugs to make sure that our medicines are both safe and effective. Because they have the power to keep dangerous or worthless medicines off the market, we are able to trust the products we buy -- and only companies that research and sell good medicines are able to compete in the marketplace.

These protections are not without cost. Good medicines reach the street much more slowly than they otherwise would. Some families that need the money their children might have earned have to resort to welfare. Unions can become too powerful and raise wages so far beyond fair market value that our products can no longer compete abroad. Minimum wages can keep some unskilled workers from finding paid employment.

But we absolutely know that reasonable regulations in these areas are essential for our country to function -- because history has shown us what America is like without them. Back when strikes were illegal, back when sweatshops kept children in slave-like conditions, back when patent medicines could sell you tapeworms as a weight-loss method or put cocaine in bubbly drinks, back when people could work twelve-hour days and still starve, we hated it so much that we elected politicians to change things.

All these regulations came about because conditions without them were intolerable. We throw them away now at our peril.

***

Trickle-down. When Republicans warn about how "unfair" it is for corporate profits to be taxed twice, please keep in mind that we're all double-taxed -- taxed when we earn our money, and taxed when we spend it. There's nothing "unfair" about taxing those who can afford it more than those who can't, however we divided it up and at whatever point we choose, as a people, to collect it.

After all, the rich are those who have benefitted from our economy out of proportion to their contribution. Yes, investors take risks. But then, schoolteachers and garbage collectors also make sacrifices to keep our whole economy going, and the sacrifice of the "risk-takers" is not somehow more worthy than the sacrifice of those who accept careers that eliminate all possibility of wealth.

The theory of reducing taxes for the rich is that the rich are the ones most likely to invest their money and therefore "create jobs."

This is, of course, bogus in the extreme. What creates jobs is demand, and while investment in startup companies can create new jobs, ultimately who pays for those jobs is the vast consuming public -- the people who aren't rich.

And much if not most of that vast surplus of money held onto by the rich does not go into anything that benefits the public.

When a rich family builds a ten-million-dollar house, the free-marketeers would be quick to tell us that all those ten million dollars go to pay the wages of workmen and thus benefit the economy.

True enough. But if that same money built twenty half-million dollar houses, or a hundred hundred-thousand-dollar condos or apartments, then not only would all that money go back into the economy, but also the result would be twenty or a hundred families with housing they could afford.

In other words, money isn't just money -- it's also the benefits that the money can bring to the lives of the people.

There's plenty of room to have some wasteful spending by the rich. But it's pure fiction that the rich spend their money more for the public good than regular people do.

Rich people are rich because they have their hands on the reins of power -- the power to make more from the labor of others than the laborers themselves make.

Does that mean the rich should be punished for being rich? Of course not. Nor should their wealth be confiscated -- nations that have tried that only discovered that very soon the wealthy found ways to move their wealth offshore, which really is destructive to the economy.

But at this moment, it would be hard for anyone to make the case that the current level of taxation causes hardship among those making more than, say, half a million a year.

And when I hear people argue that "since the rich pay most of the taxes, then cutting taxes merely lets them keep more of their own money," I have to answer, "since the rich skim vast amounts of money from the labor of the working class, charging them higher tax rates only returns to public control money that is out of all proportion to their contribution to society."

Money is a way of storing and transferring labor. When one person makes a million dollars and another person makes twenty-five thousand, you can count on it that the guy making a million did not work forty times harder or contribute work worth forty times more to society as a whole.

The enormous economic power of the United States came about because we tamed the free market to work for the benefit of all the people, not just a few.

If we want the luxury of being able to protect the world from the terrible weapons of madmen, while continuing our normal lives here at home, it would be a smart idea not to mess too much with the balance between free market and regulation for the public good.

Economies run on a combination of labor and trust -- trust that money will hold its value, that jobs will continue, that bills will be paid, and that corruption will be kept to a minimum.

America is astonishingly free of corruption, both in government and business, precisely because most people believe in and practice fairness in their business dealings. Regulation is a creation of that American insistence on fairness.

Regulations and taxes and anti-trust laws work together to keep any one group from over-exploiting the system for their own benefit, at the expense of the rest. While these are in balance, trust continues and the economy thrives.

There is room to wiggle a little bit this way or that. As long as we always leave ourselves room to wiggle back when we discover that we've gone too far.

It ain't broke. So put away your chainsaw and your sledgehammer, and keep the dogmas of your "free market" religion to yourself.


Sounds pretty traditionally liberal to me.

In other words, it's an essay I agree with. [Wink]

(But there are few traditional liberals left, it seems. This is stronger language than you'd hear from John Kerry or Ted Kennedy. Sounds a little like Nader, though.)

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Chris Bridges
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Very nice, Peter. And very in the spirit of the holidays. Good on you.

BC: You don't have to agree with everyone - or anyone - here. It would be a pretty boring forum if that were the case. But respect for the other's opinion is good, and if that isn't possible (and sometimes it isn't) than an absence of scorn works just as well.

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Mike
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[Hat] Peter
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Bean Counter
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The scorn you hear is of your own invention not mine, I am without malice, I have only love for my fellow man, and woman [Big Grin] and wish joy and careful reading to all!

BC

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Icarus
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Uh huh. No scorn. No evidence of scorn anywhere. Anywhere at all.
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Icarus
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And since I've posted in this thread, I reckon I should address the topic. I don't think I participated in your other thread, but I admire the humility you demonstrate by starting this one. I know what you mean about getting in the habit of assuming you are smarter than the people around you. I think Hatrack is populated by people who all had this experience at least through high school, if not through college as well. But here at Hatrack we have people who went to such schools as Princeton and Columbia University, we have medical doctors and PhD's, scientists, soldiers, ministers, teachers, authors, people who posted perfect scores on standardized tests, and just all around people who seem to know everything about a wide variety of subjects. It can be pretty eye-opening, but once you get over thinking you have to out-knowledge or out-smart everybody, it can make for some pretty rewarding interaction. In comparison to the Hatrack friends I have met, my non-Hatrack friends seem a little bit paler. All of the most brilliant, interesting, funny, knowledgeable people I know are here. It's worth getting used to.

I admire the sincerity of this thread. I think few people would be able to match it. Which makes you, in my book, another special addition to Hatrack.

Welcome! [Smile]

[ December 27, 2004, 02:16 PM: Message edited by: Icarus ]

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King of Men
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Chris, I don't think we are required to respect each other's opinions. There is respect for the other's right to have an opinion, and respect for the other himself. But to require respect for the actual opinion is essentially to disrespect my own opinion, to wit, that creationists are extremely stupid.

A bit more bluntly : I absolutely respect comrade Peter's right to be dumb. But I don't have to respect the dumbness.

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Icarus
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Can you be mistaken without being stupid?
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King of Men
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Yes, certainly. But in the case of creationism, I think we are definitely looking at a will to be stupid.
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Chris Bridges
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Not if you're a Christian. Then it's perfectly understandable. It's not like they really know better and are refusing to accept it out of spite.

As I suggested, it's not necessary to respect each other's opinion. But treating the other like an idiot is counterproductive. It certainly won't convince the other, and it tends to annoy other readers,e ven those who agree with you.

It's not required. But it is polite.

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Kwea
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KoM, I think that you are wrong...not about creationism, but about respect.

I respect not only others rights to have an opinion but most of the time their opinions as well.

Calling someone stupid because they don't agree with you smacks of elitism.

If it is wrong for BC and Peter to be overly critical of others then it is wrong for you to go around calling others stupid because their opinion dioes't agree with you.

You could say that you don't think it fits the facts, or that you don't agree with them, but calling them stupid is name-calling, pure and simple.

Not to mention incredibly arrogant.

Kwea

[ December 27, 2004, 03:48 PM: Message edited by: Kwea ]

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Belle
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I didn't even go into the thread because I suspected how it would turn out and didn't have the emotional energy to spare.

I just want to say that what Peter describes probably happens to a lot of us when we first come here. I hope this doesn't sound too snooty, but many of us are highly intelligent people and are used to talking and discussing things with people who generally agree with us.

It can be a shock to realize that on an internet forum of all places (no offense to other forums, but come on, the average forum....) you can find people so smart, articulate, funny, and passionate about their views. Not to mention unafraid to express those views.

What I think is important is to recognize the opportunity you have to debate civilly with people who are just as smart if not smarter than you but in total disagreement with you. You can learn a lot.

Of course, it's also good to know what topics just take too much out of you, and stay out of them.

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King of Men
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Kwea, I did not mean that everyone who disagrees with me is stupid. There are certainly many subjects where men of both good will and high intelligence can legitimately disagree. But that isn't true for all subjects. In those areas where it is not, I see no reason to respect a dashed silly opinion. Without comparison otherwise, do you respect the opinions of neo-Nazis? I hope not. But I think we both respect their right to hold unpopular views.

Chris, some creationists have publicly stated that actual evidence is less important than the literal word of the Bible. If that isn't 'knowing better and refusing to accept out of spite', what is?

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fugu13
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Creationists who insist that evolution is bad science are certainly ignorant. Creationists who understand that evolution is good science but choose to believe in creation because the bible says so are not necessarily stupid or ignorant, they just choose to believe something that can't be proven and seems unlikely from the scientific evidence, a perfectly understandable thing (after all, lots of people believe in God).
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Chris Bridges
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Chris, some creationists have publicly stated that actual evidence is less important than the literal word of the Bible. If that isn't 'knowing better and refusing to accept out of spite', what is?

I suspect that they'd argue the "knowing better" part. But that doesn't mean all creationists believe that. Many believe the evidence is false, or has been falsely interpreted, or was created by God.
For many people who believe in the inerrancy of the Bible, to believe in evolution (or at least the creation part) is to deny the truth of their faith. I can't call that stupid. I might call it misguided or mistaken, but that's something I can say politely. Ultimately, my opinion of their beliefs won't make the slightest difference to them, except in how they treat me afterwards. By treating them with scorn all you do is make sure that they'll never listen to you again. That may be your goal, and if so, no worries.

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Trisha the Severe Hottie
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Peter,
I missed the original thread but I'm glad you had the guts to apologize. That is something Hatrack desperately needs more of. Both the giving and accepting. And those of you who are resurrecting the content of the debate in this thread:

:takes a deep breath and plants feet shoulder width apart:

"Get a life!"

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punwit
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KoM,

quote:
Chris, I don't think we are required to respect each other's opinions. There is respect for the other's right to have an opinion, and respect for the other himself. But to require respect for the actual opinion is essentially to disrespect my own opinion, to wit, that creationists are extremely stupid.

A bit more bluntly : I absolutely respect comrade Peter's right to be dumb. But I don't have to respect the dumbness.

While I am firmly in your camp as regards to evolution and creationism I find your stance on respect somewhat lacking. Your assesment that Peter is dumb contradicts your assertion that you respect him. If you want to indicate that you respect Peter but don't respect his opinion you need to make that distinction.

You can exhibit tact and politeness while still driving home your point. How about this; Peter's ability to selectively dismiss scientific fact highlights his adherence to a religious doctrine. If he had no bias formed by that adherence he would, most likely, be a proponent of evolution.

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King of Men
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quote:
Your assesment that Peter is dumb contradicts your assertion that you respect him. If you want to indicate that you respect Peter but don't respect his opinion you need to make that distinction.
That is a problem, yes. Still, it is surely possible to be dumb on one subject and yet quite bright on others. (Some may think I am demonstrating just that, to be sure.) In any case, I did not intend to say 'Peter is dumb', though perhaps I came a bit closer than was really necessary. I intended to say 'Peter holds some really silly opinions.'
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Chris Bridges
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That, I don't have a problem with, especially since it applies to nearly everyone I know (emphatically including myself).
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