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Author Topic: Hey, Hatrack Parents, I've Got a Question
Noemon
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And if you're a latecomer to the thread, you'll never know what it was, except by inference! [Taunt]

[ January 12, 2005, 04:40 PM: Message edited by: Noemon ]

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Da_Goat
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I'm not a parent, but I'd say 5. Of course, it varies with every child, and a few 2 year olds may be fine alone, but I'd say around the time they enter kindergarten for most kids.
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rivka
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[Eek!]

Is there ANY chance she meant on a laptop, sitting a few feet away? Because I guess, if the water was shallow and the kid liked to play for a while, that should be ok.

But in another room?! That's just asking for a reason to have to call the paramedics and/or practice CPR, IMO.

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Papa Moose
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We can usually leave Mooselet alone for a few moments when necessary, simply because we can hear him from the other end of the house. If he stops making noise, we would probably sprint back. Even so, we're never far away. No way with Superstation. And away long enough to write a letter? Not in this house.... I get concerned leaving the kids in the living room alone long enough to write a letter....

--Pop

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rivka
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I hope she never has reason to deeply regret it. I think too many parents are sure that since nothing bad has happened, it won't -- in all sorts of potentially dangerous situations.

And while this one isn't one for me, I'm sure I have similar blind spots.

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Ela
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I can't remember anymore how old the kids were when I felt safe leaving them alone in the bathtub. Around 5-ish sounds like a good guess, but even then, I was usually readily available and within earshot.

I definitely wouldn't leave a two year old alone in the tub.

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Ralphie
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Aren't they kinda soft and slick at two? Even when you're right there with them they're like a bar of soap.

(Not that this has to do with bathing safety with toddlers, but...) One of the few kid anecdotes I have is when my sister was bathing my nephew D'mitri about the time he was just starting to form full sentences, but with a mild speech impediment. He couldn't have been much older than three. Tina had to leave the bathroom for a second and told him, sternly, that whatever he did he MUST NOT close the sliding bathtub door while she was away, and that she would be RIGHT BACK.

Now, for about two weeks D'mitri - whenever startled - would gasp, "You scaymee HUMMY, mommy!" Every time Tina would ask, "What does that mean, D'mitri?" And, unable to articulate beyond what he had already demonstrated, he would repeat, "You scaymee hummy!"

While Tina was gone, of course D'mitri immediately shut the sliding bathtub door. So, when Tina came back in the bathroom, she slammed the door open and asked, "Why did you shut this door when I told you NOT to!?" And D'mitri threw up his arms and gasped, "YOU SCAYMEE HUMMY!!"

Suddenly, a light came over Tina's head and she said, "D'mitri, are you saying, 'You scared the hell out of me!'?" And he said, "YEAH, Mommy! You scaymee HUMMY!!"

All I know is, he absolutely wouldn't have picked up that kind of filth from his aunt.

[ December 24, 2004, 01:54 AM: Message edited by: Ralphie ]

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Icarus
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My girls are six now, and for almost a year I've been leaving them alone for a bit but checking in on them four or five times a bath--usually to nudge them along and make sure they are cleaning adequately. Cor thinks I am making a mistake even now--not because she thinks they are at risk, but because she does not think they can do a good job.

But two?! That's freaking nuts.

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LadyDove
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I didn't leave the kids "alone" in the tub until they were 5. To give them sense of independence, I'd leave them "alone", but I'd sit outside the bathroom door, close enough to hear the water splash. I'd read or do paperwork until the water got too cold or they were ready to get out.

I began to actually leave my oldest alone when he turned 7. I only put in enough water so that it only came up to his ear when he was lying down in the tub, then I'd check on him every 5 minutes. John fell asleep in the bathtub at 7. Because the water was so low, he was fine, but it scared me nearly to death and made me realize that 7 was too young to leave him alone in the tub. He takes showers now.

{editted to clarify water level}

[ December 24, 2004, 04:08 AM: Message edited by: LadyDove ]

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Da_Goat
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Ralphie, that reminds me of my "Oh, sit!" month. But my mom knew exactly where that came from, but it took her a while to explain why I shouldn't be saying it.
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LadyDove
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My friend, Maria, a very sweet, conscientious and loving mom had her 3 year-old son, Eddie, in the car when they were nearly hit by a semi-truck. As she swerved out of the way, she said, "Oh F***!"

A few weeks later, as Maria's mom was taking Eddie to the park, he pointed to a big truck and yelled, "Grandma f***. F*** Grandma, f***."

It's been 4 years, and they can finally laugh about it- though not in front of Grandma or Eddie. [Wink]

One of the most important thing to learn before having kids is that kids aren't equipped with an erase button.

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mr_porteiro_head
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We leave our 3-year-old in by herself when she's taking a bath. We stay where we can hear, and we check, but we still leave her alone in the tub. I'm not sure how long we've been doing it, though.

[ December 24, 2004, 02:11 AM: Message edited by: mr_porteiro_head ]

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Sara Sasse
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FWIW, it's not that uncommon a practice, but it does significantly increase the risk of injury and death. As excerpted from the AAP Policy on Prevention of Drowning:

quote:
For Newborn Infants and Children Through 4 Years of Age

Parents and caregivers need to be advised that they should never—-even for a moment-—leave children alone or in the care of another young child while in bathtubs, pools, spas, or wading pools or near irrigation ditches or other open standing water. They should also be reminded that infant bath seats or supporting rings are not a substitute for adult supervision. [Footnote 11] They should remove all water from containers, such as pails and 5-gallon buckets, immediately after use. To prevent drowning in toilets, young children should not be left alone in the bathroom, and unsupervised access to the bathroom should be prevented.

Whenever infants and toddlers are in or around water, be it at their own home, the home of a neighbor, a party, or elsewhere, a supervising adult should be within an arm’s length providing "touch supervision." The attention of the supervising adult should be focused on the child, and the adult should not be engaged in other distracting activities, such as talking on the telephone, socializing, or tending to household chores.

Regarding infant bath seats, from a Loyola U link:
quote:
To date there have been at least 66 drowning deaths to infants and 37 reports of near drowning incidents. In the first six months of 2000 alone, five babies have died. When CPSC last considered this issue, just 14 children had drowned.

Drownings typically occur when the infant tips over, climbs out of, or slides through the product. In most, but not all cases, the child is left unattended for a brief time by the parent or caregiver.

A recent study conducted by Dr. Clay Mann, Intermountain Injury Control Research Center, found that parents and caregivers of infants that use baby bath seats engage in more risk taking behavior than parents and caretakers not using bath seats. Caregivers using bath seats prepare baths with deeper water and are more likely to leave a child unattended in the bath for conscious, willful reasons (e.g., to perform household chores). There is a false sense of safety that is propagated by having a mechanical aid to "help" to hold a slippery baby upright. This "sense of security" promotes the idea that a child could be left alone in the bath for "just a minute."

From Loyola University, Parental Attitudes towards Unintentional Childhood Injury:
quote:
The low socioeconomic parents who participated in this research generally were unaware that injuries are the number one cause of death among children. Furthermore, nearly ¼ of the participants showed an optimism bias, that is, a belief that their child was less likely to be injured than other children.
And on another note, US Consumer Product Safety Commission Warns Against Placing Babies in Adult Beds (study finds 64 deaths each year from suffocation and strangulation).

[ December 24, 2004, 02:42 AM: Message edited by: Sara Sasse ]

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quidscribis
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Wow. I had no idea. I'm not a parent, so I'm not worried about not knowing, but still. . .

Thanks for the education.

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Sara Sasse
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Injury is the number one cause of death in children and adolescents. Mind you, most don't die -- but of those that do, unintentional injury is usually what does it. It's the biggest cause of morbidity (i.e., non-fatal illness), too.

Pediatrics has always had a preventive medicine focus, and that has become increasingly so in the last few years.

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Trisha the Severe Hottie
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I was in a grief recovery group with a woman whose 11 year old drowned in the tub. They don't know how or why it happened. That said, we mainly take showers. Though one day I did let my daughter take a bath pretty much solely for recreational purposes but she's too old now for me to hover around the bathtub. But I call in on her every five minutes or so.

Oh, the original question... probably 5, IF I let them bathe at all. Now the NRA types may say that by not giving them baths I'll just increase their curiosity while decreasing their competence. [Dont Know]

[ December 24, 2004, 07:36 AM: Message edited by: Trisha the Severe Hottie ]

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Sara Sasse
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Yeah, it's dicey. I'm always well aware when I give advice as a pediatrician that I actually don't have kids. [Smile] Definitely a reason to view someone telling you what to do quite warily. I try to think of myself as a repository of information instead of a parenting expert, more like a librarian.

And goodness knows, parents are the experts on their individual kids. Nobody else loves them so much or knows them so well (unless something is way off, of course).

Huh. Good luck. Let us know how it works out, okay?

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Elizabeth
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Two is definitely too young for the obvious safety reasons stated by othrs.
Also, the risk of the two year-old transferring the bathwater cup by cup onto the bathroom floor is very high as well.

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Teshi
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(Not a parent, but have small sister) I think parents can leave their children in the bathtub, with the door open, checking every so often (i.e. like a minute or two) at around three. Four children can be left longer. Five children can be put in and left for longer (ten, fifteen minutes).

I think it depends on the child.

The door is always open, though, and the water is never deep.

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Belle
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Do we know for certain that there was water in the tub while this person was writing?

Because bathtubs sans water are excellent places to play, especially with matchbox cars.

I know a lot of kids who like to play in the tubs when they're dry, and it's pretty safe to be in the other room, because you could hear if they turned on the water. (but, I'd advise a soft covering for the tub spout, so there are no cracked noggins against it)

If you have a little one with a tub phobia who screams at bathtime, letting them play in it while it's dry and with their clothes on may help them overcome the anxiety gradually.

But to answer the question - none of my kids get left alone in the bathtub until after five, which means the twins still have supervision. The 11 year old only takes showers, and the seven year old takes a bath by herself, but I still have to go in and help her wash her hair, she doesn't get it rinsed all the way by herself, usually.

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Mrs.M
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I would never, ever leave a child alone in a bathtub under 5 years old. Frankly, I'm horrified that anyone would. You can drown in an inch of water.

We were never allowed to even lock the bathroom doors when we showered when I was growing up. My Aunt Lynne knew a family whose daughter hit her head in the shower and drowned and they couldn't get to her because she had locked the door.

BTW, Trisha, I'm in the NRA (actually, I'm a recruiter) and we have an excellent gun safety program for children. We DO NOT advocate that children be competent or even familiar with firearms of any kind. Our Eddie Eagle program teaches children to "STOP! Don't touch. Leave the area. Tell an adult," if they encounter a gun. The program doesn't even mention the NRA and it certainly doesn't encourage children to buy guns or join the NRA. Please check it out - it's a great program.

http://www.nrahq.org/safety/eddie/

Sorry for the derailment, but so many people have misconceptions about gun owners and the NRA and, as a gun owner and NRA member, I feel compelled to clear things up.

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jeniwren
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I have a 2 year old and I get nervous when my husband leaves her even for an instant when she's in the bathtub. When I bathe her, I sit on the toilet and talk to her while she plays. Or I play with her in the water.

I don't remember how old my son was when I let him start bathing on his own...I don't think I ever did. He started taking showers at 7, and of course I left him to do that on his own.

My brother fell asleep in the tub when he was a little boy....my mother about died when she realized it. And has told me the story often enough, I never risked it. My imagination runs away with me, and I'm always thinking of horrible ways my kids will die through something stupid I do. It keeps me careful.

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Amka
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About the sleeping in bed:

Many of those risk problems are very preventable, and do not rule out family bed practices.

Even the suffocation by being rolled onto has a preventable factor: not drinking or taking any drugs which can cause drowsiness.

But even taking in those statistics, one has to consider that many of the suffocation by being rolled onto scenarios may involve SIDS. Of the adult bed scenarios, 108 children died by "co-sleeping" in a seven year period. Compare this to an average of 5,500 children a year dying of SIDS. This means that over the same seven year period, 33,500 children died of SIDS. I suspect that cosleeping will automatically rule out SIDS to investigators, whether it should or not.

Here is some other information about the practice of co-sleeping:

http://www.mercola.com/2000/dec/3/sleep_infants_parents.htm (this one actually addresses the linked article)
http://www.thenewbasics.com/ip_tslt.html
http://www.mothering.com/articles/new_baby/sleep/ramos.html

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dread pirate romany
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As for the bathtub- no way for a child under 5!

Now, as to the Consumer Product safety Commision report...

Two factors to take into account whe looking at the statistics.

Number one, it does not list the number of infant deaths that occur in cribs during the same period. That should ring some bells right off.

Number two, it does not indicate if the parents in question were under the influence of drugs or alcohol, or if they smoked. I would have to look for statistics, but regardless of where they sleep, babies of smokers are at higher risk for SIDS.

Dr. Jame's McKenna's website is am excellent source for safe co-sleeping research:

http://www.nd.edu/~jmckenn1/lab/

Pamphlet of safe co-sleeping. Note how many also apply to crib sleeping?

http://www.nd.edu/~jmckenn1/lab/pamphlets/milwaukee.html

If anyone wants to see more research, I would be happy to provide it.

Personal Note:
We have exclusivle co-slept in our almost 8 years of parenting, and one thing my hubby noted within the first week was the way his body would not let him roll over if the baby had drifted to his side of the bed. Over the years, we have had the experience more than once of waking up, stiff and lying in just a few inches of space with a baby or toddler happily occupying out spot [Smile]

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Space Opera
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Yeah, I don't envy you, Noemon. You're in the position where something needs to be said - but how to do it is the question.

I do completely agree with most of the other posters on this. We did not leave either one of our children alone in the bathtub for even a second before they were 5. As Mrs. M. said, you can drown in less than an inch of water, and running back into the bathroom every time I stopped hearing splashing would not be my idea of a good time. I used to just sit on the floor and read while they played.

space opera

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Amka
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Looks like we are on the same page, Romany. I, for one, had never really heard of co-sleeping with my firstborn. But it seemed so very very wrong that this child had been inside of me for 9 months and now was expected to sleep/remain apart from me with artificial comforting substitutes for such long periods of time. So I did some research, and decided that I should listen to my natural instincts and take the babe into my bed. We both slept better.

When I had babies in bed, I also never took tylenol or cold medicines as they made me drowsy. Alcohol and smoking was never a factor because of my religion.

Noemon: That is interesting, because I wanted to breathe water as a child too. I wonder if it is some prenatal impression of ours? Babies don't start breathing when they are born. They've been breathing amniotic fluid as soon as they were physically able to in the womb.

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Lisha-princess
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I don't have kids or anything, but my childhood wasn't that long ago...and this is what my parents did. :-)

My sister and I took baths together for years and years. I don't remember when we stopped having constant supervision, but I do know that I had to be about 4 and my sister 2, (almost 5 and 3) because I remember one Christmas when we were playing (in the tub, with lots of water, alone) as usual, and our mom came in and told us that Santa Claus had come while we were in the bathtub and had left us presents. (I was very upset that she didn't come get us while he was still there. [Mad] ) I seriously wonder about my mother's parenting skills sometimes though. Anyway, for a long time after that my dad would come in and wash our hair and whatnot, and then leave us to play to our heart's content. I think he was just a room away, but I don't know. And the fact that there were two of us could make a difference. Mostly, though, we played alone.

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Trisha the Severe Hottie
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quote:
Four children can be left longer. Five children can be put in and left for longer (ten, fifteen minutes).
[Big Grin]

I want a tub that can hold five children. [Wink] Yeah, I know there should be some commas in there.

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Boon
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The last time Dan and Jen had a bath, they were in it together right after a trip to the beach and were 3 and 4.

That was one of the very few baths they've ever had. Mostly, we shower.

They've never, ever, been left in the bathroom alone while bathing. NEVER.

When they were very small, I'd take them in the shower with me. I was always very careful not to drop them, wore special gloves made of terrycloth, and made my husband wait outside the shower to take them from me to dry off and dress. Thomas does this now. He's only had...maybe 6 baths?

When they were about 2 or 3 (right about the time they started getting curious about the differences between girls and boys) Dan started showering with my husband. Same deal, though. I'd wait right outside the shower.

About 2 years ago, I started letting them shower alone. But I still wait right outside the shower. Usually, I make my self comfortable on the toilet seat and read a book. When they're done, I leave. Yep. Just as soon as the water's been shut off.

I don't know when I'll feel comfortable letting them bathe in the bathroom alone. Maybe in a couple more years.

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rivka
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Noem, that looks like a good way of putting it. [Smile] Let us know how it goes.
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Sara Sasse
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Jake, I think that looks great.

quote:
Many of those risk problems are very preventable, and do not rule out family bed practices.

Even the suffocation by being rolled onto has a preventable factor: not drinking or taking any drugs which can cause drowsiness.

Having drank alcohol or taken sedating medications does play a factor. But there are cases where sedating substances did not play a role. Yes, you can decrease the risk, and you can decrease it to a potentially acceptable level of risk. Still, it is worth noting that the risk is still there, and taking that risk -- if one choses -- with one's eyes open.

quote:
But even taking in those statistics, one has to consider that many of the suffocation by being rolled onto scenarios may involve SIDS. Of the adult bed scenarios, 108 children died by "co-sleeping" in a seven year period. Compare this to an average of 5,500 children a year dying of SIDS. This means that over the same seven year period, 33,500 children died of SIDS. I suspect that cosleeping will automatically rule out SIDS to investigators, whether it should or not.
quote:
Number one, it does not list the number of infant deaths that occur in cribs during the same period. That should ring some bells right off.
SIDS is a diagnosis of exclusion. Unexpected infant deaths are autopsied as a matter of course to rule out foul play. Suffocation leaves physical evidence at autopsy (changes in the lungs, fibers in the mouth, etc.), and findings of suffocation rules out SIDS.

SIDS isn't attributed as a cause of death until other causes of death are ruled out. We believe most cases of true SIDS to be due to central sleep apnea (the baby's head forgets to breathe, so to speak). If there are signs of suffocation present, then suffocation is the cause of death.

There is no diagnosis of cause of death as co-sleeping. To be attributed to suffocation, this finding must be substantiated by autopsy findings.

I did the intake for an infant, one of twins, who died when his father fell asleep with him on a sofa, and the baby slipped down between the back of the couch and his father, who rolled over on the baby. The parents were teetotallers for religious reasons, and the father had not taken any cold medication or the like. Of note, he probably was overtired, because they did have infant twins. The mother was washing the other baby upstairs, and when she came downstairs, she couldn't find the other twin. She woke up the dad, he rolled over and sat up, and the baby was blue underneath him. The baby died. Autopsy was consistent with suffocation.

The mother was hysterical when she came in with the ambulence, and the father was incoherent at home. Mind you, this is just one case -- it is an anecdote, and it doesn't establish a statistical level of risk for the whole population. However, the family had been co-sleeping for more than 5 months without any problems whatsoever, believed their babies to be perfectly safe, and had also experienced the reassurance of routinely waking up edged over to the side of the bed in a protective curl around the baby.

The fact that it was a sofa certainly increased the risk. Again, it may be an acceptable level of risk to some. I leave it to family choice, but when the topic comes up, I do always remember that mother's face. I really can't forget it. On the other hand, it is just one very sad story, and there are indeed ways to make co-sleeping safer (as noted above). It is still done at a level of preventable risk, though, even if decreased by preventive measures. That risk should be taken on only with forethought and awareness.

[ December 24, 2004, 06:05 PM: Message edited by: Sara Sasse ]

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Theca
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I'm very happy that I read this thread. I don't have kids, and never really thought about this issue. I know I always took baths. I'll have to ask my parents how they handled bathing when I was little.

When I was in high school/college I used to babysit, like most teenage girls. I probably never gave a bath, come to think of it. And I never babysat kids under age one. But one time I was babysitting and they told me that the seven or eight year old boy needed a bath and they didn't give me any instructions. I was really torn. He was so much older than the other kids I had supervised with dressing or toileting. And he was a rather large boy for his age. And I am short. OTOH, he seemed to want me in the bathroom. He seemed to take it for granted. They had a huge number of bathroom toys and he kept talking to me the whole time. He asked for help with his hair. I felt really awkward about it all. Probably because he was seven and I was seventeen and it just felt WRONG to me. I ended up spending most of the time hanging out at the other end of the roomm on the toilet seat (they had the largest bathroom I've ever seen in my entire life) and talking to him and feeling incredibly worried that I was doing something wrong.

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mr_porteiro_head
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quote:
*all names changed for anonymity's sake.
Be careful -- you might accidentally create a new holiday.

*awaits Billtmas*

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Sara Sasse
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Amka, the first link you give ( Dr. Joeseph Mercola, Author of The Total Health Program ) is to a letter from Katie Kelley, a pediatrician whom I trained under at University of WI. She wrote that letter in 2000 as a part of an issue of the Archives of Pediatric and Adolescent Medicine. (Of note, there were people weighing in both for an against, based on the data available at that time.)

She continues to discuss this topic in clinic with her patients' families and in pediatric rounds with the housestaff. She speaks in terms of potentially acceptable levels of risk and informed decision-making, as well. I learned a lot from her - she is quite thorough and evidence-based, and she cares greatly for her patients. She is also refreshingly willing to challenge the status quo.

[ December 24, 2004, 06:38 PM: Message edited by: Sara Sasse ]

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quidscribis
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quote:
We believe most cases of true SIDS to be due to central sleep apnea (the baby's head forgets to breathe, so to speak).
Why central? Why not obstructive? Or a combination of the two?

There was a SIDS death in the family - a cousin's son. And OSA (Obstructive Sleep Apnea) runs rampant in our family - as in, I and two of my three sibs have it, as does my mother, my father, most of my maternal aunts and uncles, and some cousins. But as I think about it, I wasn't tested for the possibility of central apnea. I think it was just assumed that because it was at least partially obstructive, that central wouldn't matter since they can both be treated by CPAP. At least, that's my assumption.

But the real question: because apnea is so rampant in our family, are we more likely to have children who die from SIDS?

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Sara Sasse
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quidscribis, there is an emedicine article on SIDS that gives a more thorough explanation. This article was updated as of October 2004 and has as primary author the medical director of the Minnesota Sudden Infant Death Center.

Briefly, obstructive sleep apnea is due to a structural fault of the airway system, and this should be replicable on autopsy. CPAP works to provide airflow ("continuous positive pressure") to stint open the airway.

Central apnea is defined as a failure of the sleep-regulating center of the brain to trigger respiration.

From the emedicine article [I have italicized for emphasis where most relevant to the discussion]:
quote:
Background: Sudden infant death syndrome (SIDS) is defined as the sudden death of an infant younger than 1 year that remains unexplained after a thorough case investigation, including the performance of a complete autopsy, examination of the scene of death, and review of the clinical history.

Cases failing to meet the standards of this definition, including those without a postmortem investigation, should not be classified as SIDS.
Cases that are autopsied and carefully investigated but remain unresolved may be designated as undetermined or unexplained.

References to SIDS exist throughout recorded history. Use of the term SIDS was adopted by an international work group in 1969. The National SIDS Act of 1974 recognized SIDS as a significant public health issue in the United States and provided funding for research and for the establishment of information and counseling programs in each of the 50 states.

SIDS is the single most common cause of death in the postneonatal period, that is, in infants aged 1 month to 1 year. In most series, SIDS accounts for 35-55% of deaths within this time period. SIDS comprises approximately 20-25% of deaths in infancy. Despite intensive study and advances in the understanding of associated factors, the specific cause or causes of SIDS remain unknown.

Pathophysiology: SIDS likely represents an intersection of factors, including a vulnerable infant possessing intrinsic abnormalities in cardiorespiratory control, a critical period of development of homeostatic control mechanisms, and exogenous stressors. See "Triple risk model" in Causes.
...
Mortality/Morbidity:

Following careful analysis of information obtained from the complete postmortem evaluation, including death scene and historical information, SIDS predominates as the single leading cause of unexpected deaths in infancy; however, alternative diagnoses are identified in as many as 15-25% of sudden unexpected deaths in infancy (SUDIs).
...
With a change to supine sleep for infants, cigarette smoke exposure has emerged as one of the most important potentially modifiable risk factors associated with SIDS. Studies examining maternal smoking and SIDS conducted following back to sleep campaigns demonstrated that infants of mothers who smoke have a nearly 5-fold elevated risk of SIDS compared to infants of mothers who do not smoke. The adverse effects of maternal smoking are generally believed to stem principally from in utero exposure of the fetus. Despite emphasis in back to sleep campaigns on the avoidance of cigarette smoke exposure (prenatal and postnatal), little change in the rates of maternal smoking during pregnancy has occurred in most countries.

The contributions of other infant care practices to SIDS risk remain less well defined. Pacifier (dummy) use, infant bundling, and temperature regulation are examples. Recent studies from overseas centers have indicated that pacifier use may reduce the risk of SIDS. Several population-based studies have shown lower rates of pacifier use by SIDS infants compared to control subjects, suggesting a protective effect. The pathophysiologic advantages conferred by pacifier use remain unknown at this time. Advice in campaigns to reduce risk has also focused on avoidance of overbundling infants during sleep. This advice appears to be more important for prone-sleeping infants and perhaps less of a factor for infants sleeping supine.
...
Causes:
The triple risk model

The cause or causes of SIDS are likely to be multifactorial. The triple risk model proposed by Filiano and Kinney suggests that SIDS represents an intersection of factors, including a vulnerable infant possessing intrinsic abnormalities in cardiorespiratory control, a critical period of development of homeostatic control mechanisms, and exogenous stressors.

Death occurs when vulnerable infants are subjected to stressors at times when normal defense mechanisms may be structurally, functionally, and/or developmentally deficient.

This model allows for the possibility of multiple potential stressors and for heterogeneity in underlying vulnerabilities manifesting as SUDI.

Neuropathology and SIDS
The vulnerable infant
A number of structural and functional nerve cell abnormalities have been described in infants with SIDS. Evidence suggesting delayed development of the brain stem has been demonstrated in 2 studies in which elevated dendritic spine counts were noted among victims of SIDS. Reductions in the degree of myelination of specific brain regions of infants with SIDS provide further evidence of defective neuronal development.

Several studies have demonstrated neurotransmitter abnormalities in infants with SIDS. Ozawa et al noted that differences in CNS dopamine beta-hydroxylase and tryosine hydroxylase have been shown in infants with SIDS compared to control infants. Abnormalities in adrenergic pathways related to cardiorespiratory control within the medulla and pons also have been identified.

Some infants with SIDS have been noted to have fewer acetylcholine-binding (muscarinic) receptors within the arcuate nucleus. This nerve cell complex, which resides within the ventral surface of the medulla, is thought to be critical to the integration of cardiorespiratory and arousal responses. In a subset of infants with SIDS, the arcuate nucleus was noted to be structurally deficient. Reduced kainate binding has also been noted within the arcuate nucleus of victims of SIDS.
...
Establishing the diagnosis of SIDS
An infant who is discovered lifeless may be transported by the family or by 911 first response personnel to the nearest hospital emergency department. In a growing number of cases, when signs of death are obvious, the infant's death may be declared at the scene by first responders. Local medical examiner or coroner protocol should be followed in either instance. In many jurisdictions, specific infant death investigation guidelines exist and should be followed by prehospital or emergency department staff when an infant death has occurred. National guidelines for infant death investigation, including death scene evaluation, have been developed and are useful to those responsible for establishing the cause and manner of death.

As its definition suggests, the process of establishing a diagnosis of SIDS is driven by excluding recognizable causes of SUDI. The necessary data set includes information obtained from the scene of death, infant and family medical and social history, and autopsy examination. Guidelines for the autopsy examination, including gross and microscopic dissections, and the role of toxicologic, microbiologic, radiographic, and other special procedures are detailed elsewhere.

Following careful analysis of information obtained from the complete postmortem evaluation, including death scene and historical information, SIDS predominates as the single leading cause of death among unexpected deaths in infancy; however, alternative diagnoses are identified in as many as 15-25% of SUDIs. The principal non-SIDS categories of SUDI include infectious diseases, metabolic abnormalities, environmental factors, and structural (congenital) cardiac, respiratory, and CNS lesions.

Apparent life-threatening events and SIDS
An apparent life-threatening event (ALTE) is defined as an episode that is frightening to the observer and is characterized by some combination of apnea (central or obstructive), change in muscle tone (usually diminished), and choking or gagging. In some cases, the observer fears that the infant has died. Previously used terminology such as near-miss SIDS or aborted crib death should be abandoned because their use implies a possibly misleading close association between this type of spell and SIDS.

The estimated frequency of ALTEs among healthy term infants is 1-3%. A relationship between SIDS and ALTE is suggested by the observation that the risk of subsequent death among infants experiencing an ALTE is 1-2%. The risk of mortality increases to 4% among infants whose ALTE is associated with respiratory syncytial virus (RSV) infection. The risk of subsequent death increases to 8-10% for infants who experience ALTE during sleep or require some form of CPR. Among infants with SIDS, only 5% have a history of an ALTE preceding the death.

SIDS is a specific medical diagnosis, and it is a diagnosis of exclusion. In the lay press, SIDS and SUDI may be conflated, and there may be an incorrectly assumed relationship between each and ALTEs. There is some relationship, but it is at an almost negligible level.

I don't know enough of the details of your family's case to give you a specific answer, but you have my sympathy regardless. [Frown]

[ December 25, 2004, 12:24 AM: Message edited by: Sara Sasse ]

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quidscribis
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quote:
Briefly, obstructive sleep apnea is due to a structural fault of the airway system, and this should be replicable on autopsy.
That was what I was wondering, and it makes sense.

Next question. So what about infants dying from obstructive sleep apnea? Do we know statistics on that?

Sara, thank you for digging up all this info. You're terrific! [Kiss]

Edit: I went to the emedicine site and looked up OSA for children, and there wasn't any surprising information there - um, that which I understood, anyway. So thank you for the original link. I guess I'm just getting morbid and paranoid because OSA is such a problem in our family. Sheesh. [Dont Know]

[ December 25, 2004, 12:33 AM: Message edited by: quidscribis ]

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dread pirate romany
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quote:
Yes, you can decrease the risk, and you can decrease it to a potentially acceptable level of risk. Still, it is worth noting that the risk is still there, and taking that risk -- if one choses -- with one's eyes open.

Some studies suggest the opposite may be true- that co-sleeping may have a protectice influence, especially in babies with sleep apnea:

http://www.askdrsears.com/html/7/T071000.asp

quote:
"Our newborn was on a monitor and slept in a cradle next to our bed. One night I heard her gasping. I know baby noises, and these weren't normal noises. As soon as I picked her up and put her next to me in bed, she breathed regularly. My pediatrician told me I was just a nervous mother. If her breathing didn't wake her up, it wasn't a problem. He told me it was my problem, and if I moved her out of our room I wouldn't hear her. I kept badgering pediatricians to study her and indeed they found she had apnea eighteen percent of the time. When she slept with me I noticed a difference. She breathed with me. My doctor still thought I was a nervous
From the same article:

quote:
In 1992 we set up equipment in our bedroom to study eight-week-old Lauren's breathing while she slept in two different arrangements. One night Lauren and Martha slept together in the same bed, as they were used to doing. The next night, Lauren slept alone in our bed and Martha slept in an adjacent room. Lauren was wired (see figure) to a computer that recorded her electrocardiogram, her breathing movements, the airflow from her nose, and her blood oxygen level. The instrumentation was painless and didn't appear to disturb her sleep. Martha nursed Lauren down to sleep in both arrangements and sensitively responded to her during the nighttime as needed. (The equipment was designed to detect only Lauren's physiologic changes during sleep. The equipment did not pick up Martha's signals.) Martha nursed Lauren down to sleep in both arrangements and sensitively responded to Lauren's nighttime needs. A technician and I observed and recorded the information. The data was analyzed by computer and interpreted by a pediatric pulmonologist who was "blind" to the situation—that is, he didn't know whether the data he was analyzing came from the shared-sleeping or the solo-sleeping arrangement.

Our study revealed that Lauren breathed better when sleeping next to Martha than when sleeping alone. Her breathing and her heart rate were more regular during shared sleep, and there were fewer "dips," low points in respiration and blood oxygen from stop-breathing episodes. On the night Lauren slept with Martha, there were no dips in her blood oxygen. On the night Lauren slept alone, there were 132 dips. The results were similar in a second infant, whose parents generously allowed us into their bedroom. We studied Lauren and the other infant again at five months. As expected, the physiological differences between shared and solo sleep were less pronounced at five months than at two months.

More from the same site:

http://www.askdrsears.com/html/7/T071000.asp#T071006

quote:
Mother fills in a missing ingredient. In the early months, much of a baby's night is spent in active sleep— the state in which babies are most easily aroused. As we discussed previously, this state may "protect" the infant against stop-breathing episodes. From one to six months, the time of primary concern about SIDS, the percentage of active sleep decreases, and quiet, or deeper, sleep increases. More deep sleep means that babies start to sleep through the night. That's the good news. The concern, however, is that as baby learns to sleep deeper, it is more difficult for him to arouse when there is an apnea episode, and the risk of SIDS increases. By six months, the baby's cardiopulmonary regulating system has matured enough that the breathing centers in the brain are better able to restart breathing, even in deep sleep. But there is a vulnerable period between one and six months when the sleep is deepening, yet the compensatory mechanisms are not yet mature. During the time baby is at risk, mother fills in. In fact, mother sleeps like a baby until the baby is mature enough to sleep like an adult. That warm body next to baby acts as a breathing pacemaker, sort of reminding baby to breathe, until the baby's self-start mechanisms can handle the job on their own. (See Sleep Safety)

(It's interesting to note, especially in light of the case Sara related, that Dr. Sears believes mothers are more finely attuned to babies that fathers, and should be the one to sleep next to them rather than between the parents.)

From another site:

http://www.attachmentparenting.org/artbenefitscosleep.shtml

quote:
Co-sleeping promotes physiological regulation.

The proximity of the parent may help the infant’s immature nervous system learn to self-regulate during sleep (Farooqi, 1994; Mitchell, 1997; Mosko, 1996; Nelson, 1996; Skragg, 1996). It may also help prevent SIDS by preventing the infant from entering into sleep states that are too deep. In addition, the parents’ own breathing may help the infant to "remember" to breathe (McKenna, 1990; Mosko, 1996; Richard, 1998).


quote:
The recent Consumer Product Safety Commission (CPSC) finding that adult beds are inherently hazardous is both misleading and inaccurate. Parents should know that this recent campaign is sponsored and financed by the Juvenile Product Manufacturing Association (i.e. crib manufacturers), an organization that has everything to gain from parents choosing to buy cribs.

Hmmm. Like smoking safety statistics from Phillip Morris.
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Sara Sasse
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dpr, the askDrSears.com link presents information that is at odds with some current understanding. The pattern of sleep of co-sleeping infants is more accurately characterized as a stress pattern (this is counterintuitive, and so many of the lay sites -- or non-neonatology sites -- may misinterpret the data). E.g.,
quote:
Developmental Psychobiology. 2002 Jan;40(1):14-22.
The sleep of co-sleeping infants when they are not co-sleeping: evidence that co-sleeping is stressful.
Hunsley M, Thoman EB.

Co-sleeping proponents consider the practice to be "natural" and a potential protection against sudden infant death syndrome (SIDS); others consider the practice of an infant sleeping in the parents' bed for prolonged periods at night to place an infant at risk for harm or death. For this study, co-sleeping was investigated from a different perspective, that is, as a significant early experience to investigate as it may have implications for the infant's development. The sleep of 101 normal, full-term infants was recorded nonintrusively in the home for 24 hr periods when they were 5 weeks and 6 months old. Infants were assigned to three groups: short-term co-sleepers, long-term co-sleepers, and non-co-sleepers. Their sleep states and wakefulness were compared at the two ages and over age. At 5 weeks and 6 months, the long-term co-sleeping infants differed significantly from the non-co-sleepers on a number of measures: At 5 weeks, they showed more quiet sleep and longer bouts of quiet sleep; and at 6 months, they also showed less active sleep, fewer arousals in active sleep, and less wakefulness. Each of these differences indicates a markedly lower arousal level in the long-term co-sleeping infants. This sleep pattern has been repeatedly found to be an indicator of stress. We infer that a major source of stress for these infants is the experience of sleep disturbance documented for infants when they were co-sleeping. Based on extensive evidence for long-term effects of early stress, we conclude that co-sleeping should have significant implications for infants' neurobehavioral development. [italics added]

The Attachment Parenting International site continues to confound SIDS with SUDIs. E.g., this is meaningless:
quote:
Experts have indicated that "overlying" is a notoriously difficult diagnosis to prove and there is tremendous variation how the term is used across the country. In addition, infants who are found in cribs are much more likely to receive a diagnosis of SIDS. It is nearly impossible, they say, to determine the exact cause of death without a full medical investigation.
1. "overlying" is not a medical diagnosis
2. the medical diagnosis of SIDS does require a full investigation -- always -- before a diagnosis of SIDS can be made (see the long post above, referencing eMedicine)

JPMA requested a review from the CPSC. They did not fund it. "Sponsoring" as attributed by the API site is misleading at best.

[ December 25, 2004, 07:11 PM: Message edited by: Sara Sasse ]

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MaydayDesiax
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Hmn, that's an interesting thought. When I was five, I had a three-year-old brother, and I remember we still took baths together on occassion--I was very much a tomboy and whatever I did my bro wanted to do too.

Also, as a little tidbit, I'm almost twenty and whenever I'm taking a bath my mother knocks on the door every fifteen minutes to make sure I'm still alive. And whenever I even drop the soap, she comes running.

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Sara Sasse
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Mind you, there are definite benefits to co-sleeping, and I never meant to imply that there weren't. I do think it's a decision for families to make, taking all things possible into account. Part of what we have to take into account is what we know about the risks as well as the benefits.

[ December 25, 2004, 11:33 PM: Message edited by: Sara Sasse ]

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Noemon
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Hey, good news! My friend didn't write back after I sent her that message on Christmas eve, and a week or so ago I sent her a "hey, did that offend you" type message, to which I also received no response. Yesterday afternoon I kind of mentally wrote off the friendship, but then last night when I got home I had a very plesant message from her waiting for me, assuring me that I hadn't offended her, and that she valued any input given to her by well meaning people, and certainly took such advice into consideration when deciding how to raise her daughter. So, no feedback on the actual bathing, but at least the seed was planted and the fledgling refriendship not killed in the process. I'll be deleting this thread here in a day or so, but I thought I'd post the conclusion to all this in case anybody'd been wondering how my message went over.
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rivka
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[Smile]
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dread pirate romany
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Thanks for updating us.
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zgator
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Just curious, but why would you delete the thread? It doesn't bother me, but I was curious.

BTW, I never thought of the bathtub for cars. I will have to remember that for Ryan. I lived downslope from the street, so we could let our cars go down the driveway and crash into the garage door.

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Noemon
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I don't know how happy she'd be with having this thread out here. Honestly she probably wouldn't mind--if I thought that she definitely would have I would have handled this through private emails to a couple of Hatrack's many gifted parents--but now that the thread has served its purpose, and I've given it closure by letting you know how it turned out, better to just delete it I think.
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PSI Teleport
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My opinion on bathing small kids:

I'm thinking that the biggest harm can come from leaving your kids alone "mentally" rather than "physically". Like, I will leave my 3-yr-old in the bath to go grab the phone and bring it back in to the bathroom, but never to go have a conversation. That's because, while I'm pretty sure he would be safe, the most dangerous thing would be to forget that my kid was alone in the tub, because then I wouldn't be wary if something happened. So, in other words, I will go grab something from another room, staying focused on my son and the sounds coming from the bathroom, but I would never leave with the intent of getting involved in another activity.

Edit: Oh fine, delete it. At least it inflated my post count. [Smile]

[ January 12, 2005, 04:37 PM: Message edited by: PSI Teleport ]

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Noemon
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I could just delete the content of the initial post, and all of my other posts in the thread. That might be better--this did end up sparking some good discussion.
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Noemon
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Okay, that's what I did with all my posts on the first page. I'll remove the resolution post sometime today or tomorrow.
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dread pirate romany
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Hey, thanks. I would have been dissapointed to lose all other stuff here [Smile]
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