posted
Fahim and I are thinking of starting one. We've checked out some online, and we're not happy with what we've seen so far. One, which looked to be otherwise excellent, has arbitrary rules for counting crit credits. (We don't want to crit 6 pieces only to find out at the end of the month that none of them count!) On the writers forum part of Hatrack, it's set up so you have a group of half a dozen, and it seems like it's mandatory weekly activity, regardless of what you actually need. Another has a submission backlog of over a month and they decide which works you crit. (I don't want to have to crit something when I can't stand the author's style or the liberal profanity, gore, or adult themes.) Another has crits that consists of two to four sentences of patting on the back with nothing that I would ever call an actual critique. Others . . . Well, let's just say it goes downhill from there.
We're serious writers seeking publication, not interested in ego stroking, but rather in honest critiques. We want to sell our stuff, and that means we need to work on improving it. But like all writers, we can be blind to our own mistakes. Hence the need for good, honest critiques.
To that end, dissatisfied with what we've seen, we're looking at setting up our own. Since a crit group of 2 is hardly effective, we're looking for others to join us.
Now the question. Is this something that any of you are looking for? If so, what are you looking for in a critique group? What are you looking to avoid?
posted
I'm a member at one of the sites I think you're referring to, and I can't keep up with the crit requirement for the life of me. I generally crit line by line, and I need a while to finish even a relatively short submission.
I'd be really interested in a group where I could crit on an impromptu basis, as well as submit very short works myself, so long as I don't overwhelm basic one to one crit to submission ratio.
posted
When you say impromptu, how impromptu are you talking about? One thing I don't want are lurkers - people who never contribute. How would it work for you if it was 2 crits a month as a minimum requirement?
We also would set it up so that short stories are critted as is, whereas anything long enough to have chapters would get critted chapter by chapter.
Posts: 8355 | Registered: Apr 2003
| IP: Logged |
posted
2 per month is about my speed. I am not a lurker by my estimation. I've never actually submitted anything--I've been trying to maintain some semblance of a decent crit count and failing miserably. I think the place where I am now wants one a week, and count super short submissions as a half crit. As I can rarely even get through a 3K word submission in a way (critting the way I do) it's been kind of a struggle.
I like the idea of breaking stuff up into chapters.
Posts: 516 | Registered: Aug 2004
| IP: Logged |
posted
I think it only makes sense. Of course it would be better if you can get critters to crit the entire novel, but that isn't always realistic. It makes sense to provide the option of critting chapter by chapter, and have the writer supply a decent synopsis so someone else can jump in at the midway mark. I'm not sure. We're in the planning phase, so it's all subject to change.
Yeah, 2 crits a month is reasonable to me. If you know you're going on holiday or have a busy couple of weeks coming up, then no problem - plan around it.
Yeah, by what you're describing, it sure does sound like one group I checked out. Not for me.
Do you have any other suggestions of what would work for you?
Posts: 8355 | Registered: Apr 2003
| IP: Logged |
posted
I do really like thier guidelines for critiques: honesty, but no ad hominems or personal meanness. I think a vitriolic critique is just as dishonest as the fluffy stuff.
Posts: 516 | Registered: Aug 2004
| IP: Logged |
posted
I am very interested in this, and it comes at the perfect time for me, really.
I'm going to be writing a fantasy novel for my masters thesis. I've been thinking about joining a crit group somewhere for it, but I've been reluctant because I know that I won't be able to keep up with a weekly crit schedule.
What I liked from my creative writing class is that the writer wasn't allowed to speak during the critique of his/her work. Only at the end were they allowed to ask questions of the group. I particularly like this, because writers often feel that they must defend their work, which is pointless. You don't argue with your readers. If they're not "getting" what you wanted them to get, then you need to change something because you can't stand over the reader's shoulders and explain your work as they're reading it. (The authors who insist on "explaining" their work always bugged me. )
Let's see... what I want from critiques on my own work is really for the readers to tell me what their experience reading was like. Where they got bored, lost interest, were confused, got interested, excited, curious, etc.
I'm not terribly interested in grammatical critiques, since I pretty much have that part down, although I welcome corrections when people see those little problems. I also wouldn't be interested in critiquing someone who has major grammatical and structural errors. I don't have that kind of time. I'm more interested in being able to actually critique and react to the story, not having to weed through horrible spelling and grammar.
Posts: 2880 | Registered: Jun 2004
| IP: Logged |
posted
I have a sugestion...run it like Wikipedia where everyone can make comments on the same article. Basically, you post a story or chapter onto a restricted site (i.e. Yahoo group) and then the people in your group can log in and make comments a little at a time, instead of having to do "one" compleated crit a week. Plus the author could post changes and that way you track how your comments were used.
Posts: 6683 | Registered: Jun 2005
| IP: Logged |
It used to be sponsored by DelRey, but since it lost sponsorship it costs $40.00 per year. I liked it when I was in it and found several writers I got on well with, whose works I admire. I've been out of it a long time, and it is rather large, but many of the participants form small groups within the workshop. The fee is relatively small, but it helps keep down the number of people who just want to make trouble.
posted
Well, I would like people to make critiques before they read other people's critiques. It taints their pure reaction. Like if someone understood a plot point in the story that you didn't get and you read about it in their critique, suddenly you get it too, and you might blame it on yourself for not getting it in the first place. But as a writer, I would be much more interested in knowing that half or some of my readers didn't understand that part.
And as a critiquer, I'm not too concerned with whether or not the author changed things based on my comments. Sometimes I listen to my critiques, sometimes, I don't. Every writer needs to have that freedom. Not that we can't read each other's rewrites, but it would have to be a case by case basis. Usually, the same reader won't be able to give me a good critique of a rewrite because they have come with memories of the first draft. I want fresh reads...because my real readers will only be reading one draft.
If we could get around those problems, but especially the first one (wanting untainted critiques), then whatever format we use is fine. Posts: 2880 | Registered: Jun 2004
| IP: Logged |
I read really fast, and while I am a fairly decent writer grammatically (despite my typos here at Hatrack ) I think my strength is in the overview...not the grammar and sentance structure. Providing I can make that type of crit, rather than a highly technical one, I would be very interested. I might have a few submissions of my own but probably not for a while.
Also, I really like fantasy, and to a lesser extent Sci-Fi, so this is righ up my alley. Posts: 15082 | Registered: Jul 2001
| IP: Logged |
posted
bunbun, I completely agree. Meanness is not welcome. Honesty, yes. They're not synonymous.
Katarain, I agree with what you said. I personally think there's nothing wrong with discussing a critique. I don't think it's okay to critique a critique, but that's not the same thing. Discussing a critique if something is unclear makes complete sense.
I also understand what you mean about untainted crits. A couple of days ago, Fahim and I joined a crit group, and we ended up critting a couple of the same things. He'd discuss certain parts of the crit with me before I got to it, and it totally affected me. I don't know how to do that on a group level, though. We're looking at setting this up as a forum/email group, so I don't know that it would be possible to guarantee that what you're talking about won't happen. But we can certainly explain in the intro that it would be in their best interests not to.
Stone Wolfe, thanks for the suggestion, but neither Fahim nor I are fond of that idea. There are too many problems with it.
Olivet, thanks for the suggestion. I'll check them out. Oh, they charge $49 a year now.
Kwea, I hear ya. I'm a grammar nazi (ask Fahim), and I do better with that kind of a crit rather than an overview. I think strength is in our diversity, and one type of crit is not better than another - they're all necessary.
Anyway, he's going to install the software to a subdomain tomorrow and we're going to start playing with it. He thinks he's got the forum software sorted out in terms of what we need and what will work out best. I'll post a link to the test forum so y'all can play until we get the permanent one up.
Thanks for all the comments. Posts: 8355 | Registered: Apr 2003
| IP: Logged |
posted
Just to clear a few things up, I'm a member of the Hatrack writing forum and that's not quite how it works.
People who set up a group through the writing forums decide how they want their group to run. They recommend no more than six members so that people don't get overwhelmed, but it's really up to you.
For people who just want to occasionally critique/be critiqued, without the pressure of a group, there is the Fragments and Feedback forum where you post a small portion of your work and ask for readers. This is also where you build relationships to find people for a group.
I know you guys already have things figured out, but I wanted to post this so that other people who are looking for a good place for critiques will actually have the correct information.
The Hatrack writing forums are a very good place for serious writers seeking publication. Non-serious writers sometimes join, but they don't usually stick around.
posted
I was a part of two Hatrack Writing groups, in rapid succession. Most of both my groups didn't speak English very well. Two of us from the original group kept up with each other and limped along for a while, but we were never given a spot on the forums (I think because there were only two of us left).
Then, I was invited to join an existing group, which was promptly disbanded because they had been together for longer than a year (or something along those lines).
I have decided that, somehow, I'm just not meant to part of a Hatrack writing group. I decided not to fight Karma. Posts: 9293 | Registered: Aug 2000
| IP: Logged |
posted
I also volunteer webspace. I also have the ability to install a wiki on my site. I actually think the wiki is a cool idea. Dunno exactly how it'd work though.
I also think this is an excellent idea. My only other question is, does it HAVE to be scifi/fantasy only? My current WIP has an...ethereal...piece to it, but I wouldn't classify it as scifi or fantasy, exactly.
Posts: 14745 | Registered: Dec 1999
| IP: Logged |
posted
They don't really work like that anymore. Now it is set up a lot like what you guys are doing here: a group of people who already know each other (from the forums usually) decide to start a group. They set their own rules as to how they will be running things.
I know that at first they were trying to start up groups immediately, but they stopped that because of experiences like yours.
I'm not trying to convince you to join a Hatrack writing group, I'm just saying that things are different now. And it looks like you guys are setting up just what you need. Good luck with your writing!
posted
Mack, keep in mind that not all fansasy is epic GRRM stuff. DeLint is a perfect example of a more modern fastasy, adn he defies genere at times as well.
I would say that if it has an element of the fansastical I would be wiling to read it...either in the group or one on one.
As I said, I read really fast most of the time. Posts: 15082 | Registered: Jul 2001
| IP: Logged |
posted
theCrowsWife, thanks for clarifying. The information is appreciated.
One of the reasons we're looking at doing things this way is because we think, with a larger group, there's a lot more flexibility. You're not stuck receiving crits from or giving crits to the same five or six people. Another thing - I can understand disbanding after a year for a group that small. It makes total sense. But with receiving crits from a larger population base, you don't need to disband.
mack, the reason we're looking at restricting it to science fiction/fantasy is because there are different requirements for publishing as compared to romance, historical, mystery, etc. It doesn't make sense to have a romance writer crit a science fiction story when they honestly wouldn't have a clue what the conventions are, what's been done to death, or that sort of thing. Same as I wouldn't expect a fantasy writer would make a good job of critting a historical.
One thing to keep in mind, though, is that within the realm of science fiction/fantasy, there are a lot of subgenres and a lot of differences between the subgenres.
If you wouldn't classify your piece as science fiction/fantasy, exactly, what would you classify it as? Perhaps it's as simple as learning more about the subgenres to figure out if it does actually fit?
I think that's one thing we're going to have to add - a section with a listing of the subgenres and examples of each so people know where their stuff fits, if it does.
Dag, thanks for the offer. Luckily, Fahim has a reseller account and he's a programmer and a sys admin for an ISP. In other words, he's actually fairly ideally suited for this. I'll let him know, of course.
Thanks for all the feedback! And yep, we went from this afternoon, thinking about it in passing, to this evening, definitely doing it. And it took me until two days ago just to convince Fahim that giving and receiving crits were a good idea. Sheesh! Can you say whirlwind? Posts: 8355 | Registered: Apr 2003
| IP: Logged |
quote: Katarain, I agree with what you said. I personally think there's nothing wrong with discussing a critique. I don't think it's okay to critique a critique, but that's not the same thing. Discussing a critique if something is unclear makes complete sense.
Sorry, I often get misunderstood there. What I mean is, it is unproductive for an author to explain defensively what he was trying to write about to his readers. If they didn't get it while reading, it's too late. However, discussing critiques, especially for clarification and to get ideas is a very valuable tool.
quote:I also understand what you mean about untainted crits. A couple of days ago, Fahim and I joined a crit group, and we ended up critting a couple of the same things. He'd discuss certain parts of the crit with me before I got to it, and it totally affected me. I don't know how to do that on a group level, though. We're looking at setting this up as a forum/email group, so I don't know that it would be possible to guarantee that what you're talking about won't happen. But we can certainly explain in the intro that it would be in their best interests not to.
Well, could it be made standard practice to send critiques directly to the writer's email address, rather than posting to the entire forum? Or, a more general rule/suggestion can be implemented reminding people to write their own critiques first before reading others. I think that is something people would willingly comply with and the few who don't won't matter too much.
I think having people with different critiquing styles is a great idea. It's always nice to have a grammar nazi point out things you missed as well as the overall type of critique. (Not that those are the only two types of critique out there.) I write fairly well, but I'm not a grammar nazi. I still make a few mistakes here and there. What I would want to stay away from is people who have atrocious grammar that impedes understanding.
How big are you thinking of making this forum/email group?
I like the idea of joining a hatrack writers group over on the writer's forum side, too, but it would take some effort to build a reputation over there and to find a competent group. As I'm writing this novel/thesis, I would like a dedicated core of a few readers.
posted
Katarain, I'd sign up to be a core reader for you. My independent study my senior year was writing a novel. I got the most serious, harsh professor I could get. I expected him to tear it apart.
While he didn't tear it apart, his crits were invaluable.
He also wrote praise on the title page.
Coming from a man who rarely gives praise, I promptly framed the title page and it now hangs on my wall.
Anyrate, I certainly understand the journey of writing a novel.
posted
Mack, those sounds like fantasy to me, for the most part. Not too sure about the ghost one, but close enough... Posts: 15082 | Registered: Jul 2001
| IP: Logged |
posted
I once put up a story that Ty and I wrote in collaboration (It was mostly his, I just did a polish and wrote a part that dealt with a second character), and had some guy on a group tell me that my main character (a male) didn't act like a real man at all.
It was posted under my name, but with an explanation that it was mostly written by Ty. He wrote the "unbelievable" male character. The critter, in this case, had his head up his... Er, he was making assumptions because it was posted under a very girly name (which mine, sadly, is).
The same character had the nerve to tell a writer (a Marine who was posting from overseas) that his Marine characters were unreallistic, because all real men only talk to each other about 'tits'.
The workshop, as a whole, started sending his crits around and basically making tremendous fun of him.
Posts: 9293 | Registered: Aug 2000
| IP: Logged |
posted
Yes, it is my first. It's an ambitious undertaking, but I don't really enjoy reading or writing short stories. I have done it, though, with okay to good to better results, so I know that I have the ability to write short stories. I'm much more interested in novel length.
I would love to share it with you on a chapter by chapter basis. I would also be interested in doing the same for you.
Posts: 2880 | Registered: Jun 2004
| IP: Logged |
posted
I actually would prefer a few chapters at a time, if possible, providing they are already written. I can get a feel for teh characters then, and a grasp on what the wold is like....
Although I have done chapter by chapter work too...to be honest I hate waiting for the next chapter...lol..
Posts: 15082 | Registered: Jul 2001
| IP: Logged |
posted
Good idea, Katarian. I did a similar thing with my ongoing novel, and found the encouragement from my fellow Jatracqueros very helpful, though you may consider joining an actual crit group if youy are after detailed analysis. (I still have a healthy back-and-forth going on with writers from a writing seminar I was in in college. Several of them are now somewhat established and really great about coherent feedback.)
Posts: 9293 | Registered: Aug 2000
| IP: Logged |
posted
I guess I think like...elves and trolls when I think of fantasy, even though intellectually, I know better.
Katarain, what I noticed when transitioning from short story to novel is that there's a different technique to it. To me, when I was working on my first novel, that was half my battle, learning how to write a novel as opposed to a short story. Pacing, plotting, consistency, all that jazz. It's neat to see the progression. In my first novel, you can see all the kinks and bumps and transitory problems. It's a decent story, but it isn't great by any means. My second one went pretty well, but I rushed the end (I really should rewrite that).
Anyway, I'm definitely interested.
I know that I'm working through a rough spot in my current work. I wrote about it here. I'm still trying to make myself face the fact that I might have to scrap pretty much the entire 150 pages I've got so far and start over. >_<
Posts: 14745 | Registered: Dec 1999
| IP: Logged |
posted
I would be willing to critique, but I rarely get any thing of my own written, much less finish anything. I'm mostly fantasy, though I read a lot of Science fiction, but I'm willing to critque almost anything.
posted
I am game for the critiquing part for now. Not ready for the submissions though. I will be. I want to gear up for NaNoWriMo this year. I finished last year, but my story is still a WIP. I want to not only reach the 50,000 word goal for this year, I want to have a workable first draft. I think that getting back into critiquing will give me a mental boost to doing some actual writing.
I used to have someone I could send my writing, but I haven't done so in so long I doubt he even remembers that I write at all.
Most of the story ideas I come up with are within the genres of Science Fiction, Fantasy and a bit of Horror.
Oh, and Olivet, I still remember the chapters from your novel. I thought they were well-written and had some great characters.
Posts: 822 | Registered: Jul 2001
| IP: Logged |
If I can see before the end of the month, I'm taking it up again. I finally had the last next bit fall into place, and I'm excited about it.
Mack, your stuff works as contemporary fantasy, though it could also go the LIT route as magical realism.
Posts: 9293 | Registered: Aug 2000
| IP: Logged |
posted
makillian... and any others who are interested, I could email you the better of the two short stories I wrote last year. It's not fantasy, although I've been told it has a slight sci-fi feel. The other story is fantasy, and serves as a preface to the novel I'll be writing. I'm not satisfied enough with it, though. There are things that bother me. For instance, if I were to post the first 13 lines on the writer's forum, you wouldn't even know it's fantasy. It also doesn't quite grab attention enough.. For me. My readers seemed to like it. (They're too kind, methinks.)
But anyway... if anybody's interested, post here and I'll email it to you. Probably later tonight or tomorrow.
This isn't a request for a critique. The story is finished. I'm sure it has plenty of room for improvement, but I'm not interested in doing anything more to it. Just thought someone might be interested. I'd like to read some of ya'll's samples as well.
Posts: 2880 | Registered: Jun 2004
| IP: Logged |
quote:What I mean is, it is unproductive for an author to explain defensively what he was trying to write about to his readers. If they didn't get it while reading, it's too late.
Katarain, I did understand that, I just didn't comment on it. I completely agree.
quote:Well, could it be made standard practice to send critiques directly to the writer's email address, rather than posting to the entire forum? Or, a more general rule/suggestion can be implemented reminding people to write their own critiques first before reading others.
Fahim's working on a solution that's both forum and email, so in theory, it ought to solve that. We'll see if it works. But regardless, your comment about untainted crits will become a part of the critting instructions, so thank you. Which I have to write up.
quote:What I would want to stay away from is people who have atrocious grammar that impedes understanding.
That would also go into the instructions - proofread for readability, spelling, etc. before you submit anything. If you don't, and you submit a mess, don't be surprised if no one crits it. Or something to that effect.
quote: How big are you thinking of making this forum/email group?
No idea. I think we're both willing to see how it evolves. The forum isn't going to be just for critting. We're going to have other sections as well - mechanics of writing, plotting, other things like that. But no, I don't know. We've both got a lot of ideas, but we'll evolve as we see what the needs are and what we want to do. Not very helpful, is it?
quote: As I'm writing this novel/thesis, I would like a dedicated core of a few readers.
That would make life much easier. We'll see what we can set up.
Mack, after much discussing, Fahim and I are going to leave things fairly flexible, at least in the beginning, so I'm going to say bring it over and get it critted when we get this up and running, which should be a day or three. Although, from what you're describing, it sounds like fantasy anyway.
larisse, kwsni, and anyone else, you're all more than welcome to join us.
We bought the domain name this morning, and Fahim's happily busy setting it up. And now I need to go and write up instructions and all that. Urgh!
Posts: 8355 | Registered: Apr 2003
| IP: Logged |
posted
Katarain, shoot me the stories over email, I'd love to read 'em. If you want, I will send you Unliving.
larisse, yeah, the WIP started out from my short story Unliving. Though, it's branched out a lot more than that and has taken a couple directions I didn't expect it to. o_O
quid and fahim, this is great.
olivia, yeah, I figured, but I'm always never too sure. I think that's why I have such a hard time categorizing what I write...it could be either contemporary fantasy or magical realism. AND...I also remember your WIP and certainly want to read more.
Posts: 14745 | Registered: Dec 1999
| IP: Logged |
posted
Do yoyu think it counts as scifi, or fantasy? I'm sort of having the same questions as you about that particular question.
Posts: 9293 | Registered: Aug 2000
| IP: Logged |
posted
And we nearly have the forum up. We're close to beta testing. And I've got a draft of the rules and how to crit. So yeah, moving forward. We're looking at beta launch probably tonight.
Posts: 8355 | Registered: Apr 2003
| IP: Logged |
posted
Came through just fine. *wince* I may not get it read before the cut on my eye, and afterward it may be a few weeks. I wasn't thinking about those delays when I volunteered to read for you. I hope it's not a problem.
Posts: 9293 | Registered: Aug 2000
| IP: Logged |
Also, although it says that you need 3 crit credits before you can submit, any Hatcrackers who sign in before August 31 get an automatic credit of 2 crit credits and the minimum crit credit is waived. (Fahim's demands made this more complicated than I wanted it to be. Blame him. )
Also, although this isn't yet a part of the terms of service when you log-in, you will be required to provide your real name.
That is all.
Let the games begin!
Posts: 8355 | Registered: Apr 2003
| IP: Logged |
posted
Oh, take your time, really! It's just a fun (I hope) little story... Nothing to stress about. I wrote it for creative writing class and it already got a grade. So again, don't worry about critiquing it. Don't waste your time, because I'm working on my other project now. I just want people to read it, that's all... Take it easy on your eyes.
*goes to look at the new forum*
Posts: 2880 | Registered: Jun 2004
| IP: Logged |
posted
Put your real name in the name field. You can use any user ID like you do here. But I do believe that, regardless of user ID, it will show your real name.
Posts: 8355 | Registered: Apr 2003
| IP: Logged |
Printer-friendly view of this topic
![[Smile]](smile.gif)
)![[Big Grin]](biggrin.gif)
) I think my strength is in the overview...not the grammar and sentance structure. Providing I can make that type of crit, rather than a highly technical one, I would be very interested. I might have a few submissions of my own but probably not for a while.![[Wink]](wink.gif)
![[ROFL]](graemlins/rofl.gif)
![[Frown]](frown.gif)
.![[Angst]](graemlins/angst.gif)
share her real name....*
