posted
Fahim has a science fiction novel finished that he's editing/polishing, and someone who read his first chapter said that Fahim shouldn't use terms like blaster, credits, and hoverbus because they're too generic and, since Fahim spent so much time coming up with everything else, he could do a better job than those. This person went on to say that "alien gun" would get the point across better than "blaster" (but then, Fahim's alternative suggestion of "phatnicotel" was "way out". )
Other suggestions included talking about money in the context of the character fingering the plastic chips.
I've also read - can't remember where, but it was frequently enough - that we, as writers, shouldn't invent new terms for everything just because it's alien. So use coffee for the morning drink even though it might be an entirely different plant and who really cares anyway. Don't be confusing the poor readers with new terms to have to remember! (Fahim reminds me that it's the Turkey City Lexicon. )
So here's the question. Which is right? I know it's going to be a "depends". Depends on what?
As a reader, does it bother you when you see generic terms like blaster or credits? Or do you prefer seeing a whole new terminology for alien guns every single time? Or do you prefer something else entirely?
posted
Honestly, I'd rather the writer asusme some of the accepted 'lingo' or slightly modify it (so that it's still recognizable). That way, I don't have to constantly wonder what something is. This, of course, only works if the aliens are human-like. If they are completely other, having familiar icons breaks my train of thought. One thing about R. Jordan (cringe) that bothers me is his overuse of his Seanchan terms. It's like he likes to hear them (leaving aside his obvious love of his own 'voice').
If I want to learn new terminology, I'll read a marketing handbook. Posts: 1069 | Registered: Feb 2005
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posted
Depending on exactly how 'out there' the science fiction is, I actually find it pleasant to read terms I already know, such as coffee. It makes me think more about the backstory of the universe as a whole which keeps me interested in the story. But that's just my opinion.
Posts: 2827 | Registered: Jul 2005
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Note that new terminology in familiar settings and accepted terminology in strange setttings is about as jarring as my overuse of parentheticals above.
Posts: 1069 | Registered: Feb 2005
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If I was to send you guys $20AU, would you send me it by email? If you do, keep the words hoverbus, blaster and the other thing in. They might be overused for everyone else here but I've never read a story that used them. Plus they were words invented in science fiction and are implemented now implemented in real world usage, which is awesome.
Posts: 1138 | Registered: Nov 2005
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quote:I've also read - can't remember where, but it was frequently enough - that we, as writers, shouldn't invent new terms for everything just because it's alien. So use coffee for the morning drink even though it might be an entirely different plant and who really cares anyway. Don't be confusing the poor readers with new terms to have to remember!
Didn't Shakespeare invent a great deal of words now used in the english language? That's what I remember hearing from my english teacher, who was absolutely obsessed with Skakespeare, but then it was almost two years ago so I might be completely wrong.
Posts: 1138 | Registered: Nov 2005
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It seems to me that the best approach would be to look at how real languages deal with this. When do we use new words, and when do we adapt an old one? A genuinely new invention like a telegraph gets a new word. A sort-of-new thing like a railway is formed by portmanteau of existing things - we had the concepts of ways, and of rails. (You could argue that we had the concepts of 'tele' - far and 'phone' - hear, but I think it counts as new since it was consciously adopted from the Latin as a neologism.) Finally, incremental changes usually use the same word, possibly with additional specifications; a modern semi-automatic rifle is an extremely different beast from an ancient musket, but we can use the same word 'gun' to refer to both, because the evolution was so gradual.
So in the case of credits, nah, unless someone was introducing a completely new monetary system - and even then they'd likely be called 'New Dollars'; at least that's what happened in Germany. (Twice, in fact.) Blasters, probably not unless a nickname became popular. 'Gun' describes the function perfectly well, and you can refer to a 'semi-automatic plasmatronic heatprojector' if you need to specify what kind of gun you're talking about. 'Hoverbus', it's at least possible, if the new and old kinds existed alongside each other for while, and there was some context that made it important to distinguish. Perhaps the hoverbus went to the capital, while the bog-standard old wheeled bus was local; in that case you might want to say 'I took the hoverbus today' to give information about where you had gone. But really, I think 'bus' would be extended to cover a new case, just as with 'gun'. After all, in the question 'when does the bus leave' it does not usually matter whether you are looking for the electric, or for the diesel, so why should hover versus wheeled be different? If you need more information, you can ask for 'bus number 17'.
Posts: 10645 | Registered: Jul 2004
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posted
Cheiros, no. You will not send up money for a novel that is unpublished and unfinished. You can, as can anyone, go to Fahim's site and read his blurb and then, if you're still interested, click on the link to the first chapter.
If you're still interested in reading more at that point, email Fahim and he'll probably send you a copy, again, with no money changing hands, with the hope that you would offer him useful suggestions on how to improve the story or comments about what didn't work for you.
So, about this story in particular that brought up the blaster, credit, and hoverbus question.
quote:This novel starts with Normal Kint, who sells his wife's dog, Ringo, to a Martian, and runs from his wife's wrath. Martians love dogs - as a rare delicacy. But Ringo isn't what he appears to be and Kerr, the Martian that Normal sold the dog to, is on Normal's trail, determined to return the dog. Then there is John Wylie, Normal's wife Kathryn's boss, who promises to find Normal but who also seems to have a rather strange interest in the fate of Ringo.
These are just three threads in a story that consists of multiple threads that weave in and out through the entire novel, intersecting in interesting and unexpected ways.
I don't know if that helps or not. Posts: 8355 | Registered: Apr 2003
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posted
I'm always interested in reading new stuff, so send em on over (the email address in my profile) if you so desire. Not sure if I'd be able to offer any helpful feedback, but I sure love to read.
Posts: 2827 | Registered: Jul 2005
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posted
Oh I just read your first post and decided I want to read a story about blasters and stuff, since I missed them in the oldschool ones that were made well before I was born. And even better, it's got martians! This comes in stark contrast to how I've been about fiction of late. This may be the first story I've read in over a month. After I've read it I'll be more than happy to read all the free stories anyone wants to give me.
Whether or not I can offer useful suggestions is another thing.
Posts: 1138 | Registered: Nov 2005
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quote:Originally posted by King of Men: It seems to me that the best approach would be to look at how real languages deal with this. When do we use new words, and when do we adapt an old one?
Precisely While my approach might not jell with some of your suggestions <g>, this was exactly what I did in my novel. The background to the story is that the humans in the story did not invent any of the tech - it was given to them by various alien races. The humans just came up with terms that they were familiar with to identify some of the things. This is also a bit of a send off of science fiction stories and terms and so (the unmentioned) backstory is that they picked the terms out of science fiction novels Posts: 136 | Registered: Aug 2003
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I think this is a common things to do, yes. After all, the term 'blaster' has perfectly legitimately entered the English language to mean 'new kind of hand-held gun that makes Really Big Holes'.
Posts: 10645 | Registered: Jul 2004
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quote:Originally posted by cheiros do ender: And even better, it's got martians! This comes in stark contrast to how I've been about fiction of late.
The Martians might not exactly be what you think they are - but there is reasoning behind why they were named that too ... you'll find out when you read the story Posts: 136 | Registered: Aug 2003
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Well heck, now you've got me hooked. I just subscribed to that Notification List thingy one your website.
Posts: 2827 | Registered: Jul 2005
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quote:Originally posted by King of Men: I think this is a common things to do, yes. After all, the term 'blaster' has perfectly legitimately entered the English language to mean 'new kind of hand-held gun that makes Really Big Holes'.
LOL. I think I should write to the OED about that one Posts: 136 | Registered: Aug 2003
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quote:Originally posted by Dr Strangelove: Well heck, now you've got me hooked. I just subscribed to that Notification List thingy one your website.
I will send you the first three chapters via mail as soon as I get off Hatrack ... of course, considering all the responses, I might be here for a while Posts: 136 | Registered: Aug 2003
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Blaster may be a bit to---50's Dr. Who type generic. Perhaps a bit of an explanation of how it got its name might help.
Posts: 11895 | Registered: Apr 2002
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Useful suggestions = this part dragged, this part I really liked, this bit confused me. If you can read, and you can tell whether or not you enjoy reading something, you can provide useful feedback.
It's a myth that only "special" people can tell whether something's good or not.
Blurbs and first chapters for my novels are sitting here. I'm having formatting issues that I'm trying to fix - it's gotta be somewhere in that .css So please, ignore the funky ugly formatting if it's not fixed when you (the generic you) wander over to my site.
Posts: 8355 | Registered: Apr 2003
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quid, I'd be happy to read and comment upon your stories, as long as you don't mind being picked apart, which is a bit of my MO when reading! So if that doesn't frighten you off...
It's been a while since I got to read someone's story and I love to do this kind of thing. I read some of your excerpts . Mon e-mail address is in my profile.
Posts: 8473 | Registered: Apr 2003
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posted
Blaster -- I don't like this one. Why not call it a gun?
Credits -- I like this one.
Hoverbus -- Unless there are both normal buses and hoverbuses in the society, I reckon they'd just call them buses.
Posts: 16551 | Registered: Feb 2003
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Honestly, Teshi, I prefer picking apart. It's the only way I can make my stories better. Well, not the only way, but definitely one of the more pleasanter ones. Posts: 8355 | Registered: Apr 2003
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Glad you liked that rivka. The people on the other forum did not recognize the origins of that one. My other suggestion was gatnicotel Posts: 136 | Registered: Aug 2003
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Blaster - Reminds me of Star Wars. Its standard sci-fi and I see nothing wrong with using it.
Credits - Same, reminds me of Star Wars. I think we're probably going to shift to this in the real world as people don't use cash so much these days. Its more credit cards and debit cards. It makes sense that we'd switch to calling em credits.
Hoverbus - Neutral on this one. Makes sense that it'd be used though.
Posts: 3295 | Registered: Jun 2004
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I'm going to second MPH's suggestion on the Hoverbus thing. Blaster doesn't bother me much, but I immagine military types would come up with some type of acronym for an alien weapon. You know, the BFG from Doom? Something like that like RTMRBG (Rifle That Makes Really Big Holes). Creative nicknames would be good, too. On money, I think using modern names for money (depending on which nation happens to be the most dominant in your story. Dollars if American, Pounds if British, Yen for Japanese, etc. etc. etc.) helps color things better than generic terms like credits.
Posts: 3003 | Registered: Oct 2004
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So far as blaster, what about referring to it by the name of the manufacturer that makes it? In the same way that a secret service officer would say "I trained my Sig (Sigsauer being the manufacturer) on him" instead of "I trained my gun" on him. It makes it more specific to YOUR story, and at the same time isn't too out there.
Credits can go either way. It's bland, and sort of an accepted practice. There's nothing special about it. Making up your own monetary system, i.e. Harry Potter with Galleons, Knuts and Sickles, might not be a horrible idea, but it has to be easy to understand if it isn't a plot point, otherwise it'll just trip up the ready with unnecessary detail. Otherwise, if it's just a futuristic earth society, there's nothing wrong at all with dollars, euros, pounds, yen or yuan, as they are the five mostly widely used currencies on the planet.
My only problem with that, is I'd imagine Mars would have it's own currency. I can't imagine how hard it would be to keep a currency constant and regulated between the United States and a colony on Mars. They'd have to form their own currency based on their own banking system and then trade it in for earth based money when they came here. I guess my recommendation would be to invent your own money system, but to keep it simple and easy to understand, maybe based on an earth money system and then named for Mars. Maybe a Martian Dollar is simply nicknamed a "red" ("20 Reds for a Cheeseburger? That's highway robbery!") because it's from the Red Planet, in the same way that American Dollars are called "greenbacks" because the dollar is green. Experiment with it.
Posts: 21898 | Registered: Nov 2004
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Should I clarify the joke in case anyone doesn't get it?
In Stargate, Colonel O'Neill is introduced to a Gou'uald weapon by Teal'c, who calls it a zatnicotel, or a zat for short. That's why Fahim was facetious when he suggested it on the other thread not on this forum, and why I had to include it as a reference in this thread. Because I knew that at least some HatCrackers would get it. (ketchupqueen, for example, would love it. )
Posts: 8355 | Registered: Apr 2003
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Yep...I like the scene where O'Neill explains to Aris Boch why he ought to use the nickname "zat" instead of "zat'nikitel."
Posts: 3546 | Registered: Jul 2002
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posted
Oy. I have read for a few folks on the OWW who used words like "Cha" or "caff" meaning hot drinks of some sort, but meaning to suggest teas, coffee or cocoa in particular.
I'm editing a really cool novel right now, and the one thing that really bugs the snot out of me is that the author uses the term "Speeder" for a sort of flying car. I said, "Use something else! That's too Star Wars. George Lucas will demand your firstborn." But since I didn't come up with an alternative that was as easily recognizable for what she was suggesting, she kept it. I'm still conflicted about it.
I think "credits" works just fine. Hoverbus could just as easily be "Bus" if you happen to describe it as hovering (if the world has both hovering and non-hovering varieties of bus, as others have pointed out, then "hoverbus" is fine).
I feel almost the same about "blaster" as I do about "speeder", but I haven't come up with anything better for either of them. So I'm zero help there. :/
Posts: 9293 | Registered: Aug 2000
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A particular model of sniper rifle is called a Kate. I learned that from the TV show NCIS. And they brought it up because it was a plot point. That is, it was used to kill a character named Kate.
Hot Sleep has the word "worm" for their busses. But calling it a bus just doesn't sit right because it is a worm.
I remember hearing/reading you should never introduce things that aren't important to the plot. However, building the atmosphere of the culture is important too (but be careful--watch Blade Runner, which I think did it well enough it still applies).
And some stories are too predictable because they are so good about leaving out non-essentials, that when one appears, you know it is a plot point.
When I write my story, I'll certainly use Credits. The term is also used in many RPG's, and even video games.
This thread makes me want to write my story....
Posts: 1209 | Registered: Dec 2003
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human_2.0, if you feel like wanting to write your story, then perhaps it's time you did At least, you should get started and see where the road leads
Thanks to all who supplied their opinions and thoughts BTW You all have brought up certain points which will be valuable now as well as later. To be honest, I had not even considered some of the wording because none of it was really essential to the story and some of the stuff never comes up ever again after the first scene. However, there are other things, such as the Hoverbus, which can be changed in ways to adapt to your suggestions while still keeping my original intent
Of course, I should have provided more background in my original clarification because the way certain terms are used is also based on the background and the culture of the world the story takes place in. For instance, this world is never identified as being Earth (it could be or it might not be ... I'm keeping it vauge on purpose ) and they had their technology blasted to the stone age due to a series of wars. They had no money and the credits were galactic credits introduced by the aliens. Of course, that brings up an interesting discussion about how a galactic credit system work between multiple planets, but that will be a discussion for a separate thread ... Posts: 136 | Registered: Aug 2003
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I also appreciate all the points brought up. It's given me food for thought and will, I think, help me improve my stories. And it'll help me improve Fahim's stories. Posts: 8355 | Registered: Apr 2003
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I hope this thread hasn't lost its steam because I have a related question.
This is kinda goofy, but I've been building up a story for a few years. I've written parts but didn't know where to take it and everything I wrote was pretty lameo anyway.
But that isn't my problem. My problem is that the "world" I'm writing in is based off of a goofy video game I played as a kid and didn't realize it until I just played a modern rewrite of the game. The game is called Elite, and the modern rewrite is Oolite.
My problem is that I came up with new words for the terms used in the story. The most notable is I came up with "dreamspace" for the game's "witchspace", which is kinda like the a space fold, or kinda like warp, except instead of "folding" space or warping it, the idea here is more like Card's Children of the Mind where you go to another dimention, then come back into ours at a different place.
I wasn't trying to come up with my own words, but because I forgot about the game, I came up with my own words. But now that I played the game, I realized what I've done, and well, I like "witchspace" better. Should I use it?
Posts: 1209 | Registered: Dec 2003
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My first question is... Will there be copyright infringement problems with using their term? I have no idea, but I can change the subject line to hopefully attract Dags.
Edit to add:
Terms like blaster, credits, and hoverbus have been used so many times by so many people that I don't worry about those. I just don't know about witchspace, though. Ya know?
Posts: 8355 | Registered: Apr 2003
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Human, question for you. There are assumptions in meaning in both dreamspace and witchspace. Which suits the tone of your story better? Which provides better meaning?
Posts: 8355 | Registered: Apr 2003
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I think blaster is actually a pretty good term for a futuristic type gun, I mean, imagine if a bunch of scientists were to invent a gun that fired bursts of laser fire or whatever. Quite frankly, scientists have been known to take cues from popular culture (I'm thinking specifically of the Kupier Belt Objects/Planets being named after characters from Xena and Buffy) If I were a scientist, and I made such a discovery, I would definately take my cues from terminology that already exists.
As a writer, I think it can work well both ways. Sometimes, generic terms like bus, coffee, and gun make the world a little more grounded in reality. On the other hand, creating a universe in which Earth and Martians and such don't exist, it makes some sense to use terms that sound original. At the same time, though, they have to be accessible to the reader in some way(blaster, hoverbus ect are great for this because they're easily recognizable by science fiction readers).
Posts: 681 | Registered: Feb 2004
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posted
Witchspace, I think. Well, I was doing dreamspace having connections to dreams, but I think I'm dropping that idea as it was getting too complex.
But I'm also extending the meaning of the name beyond somewhere you go so you can travel lightyears away (which is what it means in the game, except in the game, aliens hang out in witchspace, which will actually fit in my story too). So it will have place in the plot.
Why doesn't trademark apply here? Because the word isn't trademarked? Or because you can use trademarked names in stories?
My brother draws his own comics and he is all paranoid of getting ripped off (and has been sighted on this forum... you there?) and he trademarks all of his characters and story names. Does that mean I can't use those names in any of my stories without his permission?
Posts: 1209 | Registered: Dec 2003
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I vote you go for the term that more closely matches the meaning and undertones you want it to have.
Posts: 8355 | Registered: Apr 2003
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So I googled Witchspace, and besides the .com name, it is used only in the context of the game. And there are at least 2 novels written specifically in the game genre. So if I use the term Witchspace, it would pretty much doom it to being an "Elite novel".
So..., I emailed one of the game authors and asked him what I should do! So we'll see what happens.... (funny how I'm older and this guy doesn't seem so almighty, but I still have stars in my eyes because "HE WROTE ELITE!!!"--kinda like newbies here when OSC posts on a thread...)
Posts: 1209 | Registered: Dec 2003
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