posted
I went on a ride-along today with an officer in the city where I'm doing my prosecution clinic. It was pretty uneventful - several traffic stops, several domestics (no violence, just peace-making), and a lot of riding past houses where wanted people were known to hang out.
We saw two people in one of these yards and the officer got out to speak with them. I got out on the far side of the car and waited. Suddenly, one of the guys slugs the officer, takes off, stops, turns, and catches the officer full in the face while the officer was moving full speed in pursuit. The officer went down in a heap with the suspect.
The other suspect immediately started yelling, "Be still. Stop resisting him." The officer ended up on top and I thought it was over, but the suspect flipped the officer over, stood up with the officer clinging too him, and tried to run.
I dove for the mike and said, "073 is fighting with a suspect." Then I tried to decide what to do - should I help? I decided that as long as the other guy was hanging back, I would, too. The suspect and the officer were in a ball, there was pepper spray being used, there's a gun present (still holstered) and I have no idea how to fight in such a situation. The second guy would have been enough to overpower the cop, though, so my thinking was to try to keep him out of it.
I have no idea if I could have actually made myself jump in. Within 15 seconds, the officer had the suspect pinned against the fence. It was basically stalemate, with the officer on top. I focused on the other guy, whose obvious intention was to not get busted.
Within 30 seconds of my call there were two sirens audible, another officer was on scene in another 20 seconds, and soon the street was jammed with police cars.
I wrote out a statement by hand, the officer went off in an ambulance with a possibly broken wrist, sprained ankle, and dislocated thumb. The suspect went off in cuffs. He's facing serious charges now, I think.
So that's why my ride-along was cut short by an hour and a half. It's also why I'm glad with my chosen part in the criminal justice system.
Posts: 26071 | Registered: Oct 2003
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posted
Wow. Glad it ended with the guy getting busted.
What would the legal ramifications have been had you jumped out and tried to aid the officer? Are you allowed to do something like that?
Posts: 959 | Registered: Oct 2005
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posted
I would have had whatever standing a citizen would have had. My status as ride-alonger wouldn't have mattered, except as evidence that I knew the situation.
As to what that standing would be, I'm not entirely sure. Whatever the possible charges, however, there's little chance any would have been brought against me in that situation.
Both the police and prosecutors have a lot of discretion, and helping an officer getting jumped is one area they are likely to us it.
Posts: 26071 | Registered: Oct 2003
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posted
Wow. Ride-alongs usually aren't that exciting. Did you talk to the officer afterward? How did the cops react to a civilian making the call? Did it sound weird to them? What was the suspect wanted for (without names, to protect confidentiality of course)? Did the suspect explain why he slugged the officer (a lot different than just running away)? Did you have to do some sort of debriefing where they analyzed the situation (other than writing out your statement)?
Posts: 1423 | Registered: Sep 2003
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posted
Helping an officer get jumped on the other hand...
Glad it all ended ok. I'm impressed you thought to go for the mike - I'm not sure that would have occured to me in the moment.
Posts: 4393 | Registered: Aug 2003
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quote:Wow. Ride-alongs usually aren't that exciting. Did you talk to the officer afterward?
Briefly. He was hurt, incredibly angry, and looking to people he knew well for support. I'll either see him or get an update on his condition Monday.
quote:How did the cops react to a civilian making the call? Did it sound weird to them?
I got thanked by about 5 different officers. The dispatch repeated it "Ride-along says 073 is fighting with suspect." Once I heard that confirmation, I left the car. That was enough info to get the reinforcements there (they had the address before the officer left the car), and I wanted to keep an eye on things.
quote:What was the suspect wanted for (without names, to protect confidentiality of course)?
Failure to appear, but I'm not sure for what. It wasn't violent, or he wouldn't have approached like that.
quote:Did the suspect explain why he slugged the officer (a lot different than just running away)?
Nope. He mouthed off about how good his right was, then was told to shut up by his friend and the officers.
quote:Did you have to do some sort of debriefing where they analyzed the situation (other than writing out your statement)?
The sergeant took me through the events, then I wrote it out. That was it - about 5 of them are spending the rest of the night on paperwork: injured officer, use of force against suspect, plus arrest reports. I'll testify if it goes to a jury.
quote:I'm impressed you thought to go for the mike - I'm not sure that would have occured to me in the moment.
I'm very innovative about avoiding physical conflict. Posts: 26071 | Registered: Oct 2003
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posted
I got to go out with ambulances a few nights during my training. It was very boring, with a lot of down time, and I hated not being able to really help. But, looking back, I often wish I'd done it a few more nights, or gotten a few more calls. It's a different world than the one I know. Not usually as exciting as Dag's experiences, though.
Posts: 1014 | Registered: Jul 2005
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posted
I don't. On warrant calls - because there pretty much will be an arrest - I wasn't allowed closer than the car. (edit: I do know there was no conversation loud enough for me to hear prior to the start of the fight. After that, I heard pretty much everything, because it was all shouting.)
I did listen to probably a dozen coversations between the officer and citizens (including several suspects and one other arrestee) throughout the night, and he was always professional and courteous. But, I didn't hear him on any warrant stops, so those could be different, I suppose.
Posts: 26071 | Registered: Oct 2003
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I was just curious if the warrant was for a crime worse than assaulting an officer because now, the rest of his life has changed.
Warrants are funny things. Like bad credit, they seem to have an affinity towards the poor and minorities. I had a warrant for a while. I was 18 years old, I got a ticket for Jaywalking. It was 1 in the morning, and I wanted to go home. The street was desolate. The cop was half a block down, parked with his lights off. I don't drink, and I was tired from dancing so it wasn't as if I was rowdy. I was however, an 18 year old black athlete without my glasses-- the glasses do wonders-- so the police stopped me, as apparently there had been some criminal activity in the area. The police called for back up before stopping me. There were four cars there in a matter of seconds. The cop who stopped me ran my license, then another cop who arrived said that I didn't look like the guy who perpetrated the crime, the whole thing took a full fifteen minutes before they realize that they were called out for nothing, and I really think that the cop was so embarrassed that he had to give out a ticket for something. Jaywalking it was. Sixty dollars. I went to court. The judge cut it in half. I didn't have the money at the time. Then I got caught up in finals. The date passed. Boom, warrant for $128.
posted
Irami, I think Dag said that it was for failure to appear, which is nowhere near assaulting an officer. I think what happened to you is awful and I'm sorry you had to deal with that. The only person I know who had a warrent was my rich, white father and it was for failure to appear and failure to pay child support.
Dag, way to keep your head! I'm glad no one was seriously hurt.
Posts: 3037 | Registered: Jan 2002
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I'm okay now. I now realize that a few poor decisions, in my case jaywalking and not paying the subsequent ticket, can quickly get complicated in the criminal justice system.
They chase down people for failure to appear warrants? I was under the impression that a failure to appear warrant was as low a priority as my own failure to pay a jaywalking ticket warrant.
quote:I'm guessing it depends on which court issues it and what the appearance was for?
Pretty much.
However, in this city, the police know a lot of people. So each "Monday" (the first day of the officer's work week) they flip through the newly issued warrants. If they recognize someone, they make it a point to cruise past known haunts during patrol.
If the guy was FTA for a serious felony, they'd have put effort into looking and investigating. For lesser charges, though, you can combine patrol and warrant duties.
The officers were backing each other up on every stop they could. Officer 1 gets assigned, and another officer without a call will say they're en route to backup. If everyone has a call, then backup would only be sent for known high risks.
In our case, most of the officers in the area were involved in breaking up a large fight when my call came through.
Posts: 26071 | Registered: Oct 2003
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posted
I had a warrant out recently for over a year - failure to pay a traffic ticket. I got stopped once in my (poor, mostly minority) neighborhood by an officer who ran my plates as I drove by. I recognize the advantage of being a glasses-wearing, innocent-looking white girl because the officer just told me there was a warrant out and I should take care of it before something happened, then waved goodbye.
I finally took care of it because I want to get all things like that out of the way before Matt and I combine finances.
Posts: 26077 | Registered: Mar 2000
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posted
Wow, I would be a nervous wreck if I had a warrant for a DAY. But then, with my job, I have a lot of scrutiny. Always better to look squeeky clean.
Posts: 1014 | Registered: Jul 2005
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quote: I recognize the advantage of being a glasses-wearing, innocent-looking white girl because the officer just told me there was a warrant out and I should take care of it before something happened, then waved goodbye.
Katharina, he must have thought you were a saint. You do realize that for anyone else, it would have been an ordeal, even if you did have the money to pay out the warrant.
Posts: 5600 | Registered: Jul 2001
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posted
My boyfriend was stopped three times on his way home from work the other night because he has a green truck, and apparently they were looking for someone in a green truck who had done something really bad.
He's a really skinny, glasses-wearing geek boy.
I was once FOLLOWED by a (female) cop while lost amongst the many Orlando subdivisions. As soon as we turned into what I thought was the right subdivision, she pulled me over, turned on the super bright light, made me get out of the car, got in my face, and started yelling about how she should take me to jail. Then she started telling me how if a heavier vehicle ran into the passenger's side of my Volkswagen, one of my friends would probably be killed (there were two girls with me).
I didn't DO anything. I think my car pissed her off...it was brand new and in my name. I also think she was hoping to catch a bunch of drunk kids because it was Fourth of July weekend.
So being a girl can backfire, if the cop is a scary woman.
Great reflexes, and I'm very glad you reacted in the way you did, but mostly glad that no one got seriously wounded in that situation (especially where someone in the scuffle is carrying a gun in a holster).
The day my dad was killed, the capture of his killer was made possible by a very quick-thinking passerby who grabbed the radio in dad's car immediately and let dispatch know (in CB jargon, though) that an officer was down and the description of the car which drove away. It was too late to help dad, but it definately was key in capturing the killer. Although I heard the testimony of this citizen during the trial, I've never had a chance to just go up and shake his hand and tell him thanks -- hope I can find him someday to do that.
sidenote: this year has been an extremely deadly year so far in law enforcement. Line-of-duty deaths are up 44% over this time last year.
posted
I had a warrant once for a bounced check to Winn-Dixie. It didn't cost me anything except making good on the check (and some stamps and a money order, I guess) to take care of it.
Posts: 13680 | Registered: Mar 2002
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posted
In high school I was riding m bike with a friend in SLC and we tried to cross state street in the middle of the night. He had tried many times to do this before without success. We didn't even get to the street before there were 4 cops surrounding us. I think they kept us there for 20 or 30 minutes (as all the late night partying kids yelled and laughed at us as they drove by). They said car thiefs use bikes a lot. Irony was our bikes were junky, so I had tools on me... I was SO glad my friend didn't have his switchblade.
Posts: 1209 | Registered: Dec 2003
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quote:Great reflexes, and I'm very glad you reacted in the way you did, but mostly glad that no one got seriously wounded in that situation (especially where someone in the scuffle is carrying a gun in a holster).
I've been unable to avoid second-guessing myself. Should I have called as soon as the violence started? Should I have helped physically? Intellectually, I absolutely know there's nothing I could have done to help in the fight. But, I can't help thinking I'm rationalizing because I was very scared. When your rational decision conflicts with your baser emotions, how sure can you be of it?
quote:he day my dad was killed, the capture of his killer was made possible by a very quick-thinking passerby who grabbed the radio in dad's car immediately and let dispatch know (in CB jargon, though) that an officer was down and the description of the car which drove away. It was too late to help dad, but it definately was key in capturing the killer. Although I heard the testimony of this citizen during the trial, I've never had a chance to just go up and shake his hand and tell him thanks -- hope I can find him someday to do that.
I thought of your dad the first time we pulled someone over. It's an incredibly intimidating situation.
Posts: 26071 | Registered: Oct 2003
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posted
Since part of this thread has turned into "I had a warrant" stories, I'll tell mine.
A sheriff's deputy showed up at my mother's house in Louisiana to arrest me once. She just sat there stunned and asked him why and he said "Failure to appear for jury duty." She said "But she doesn't live here, she's been living in Alabama for more than a year."
The deputy said "Oh. Well call this number and tell them she's no longer a Louisiana resident and they'll take care of it."
And they did.
Man they take jury duty seriously in Jefferson Parish.
Posts: 14428 | Registered: Aug 2001
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posted
Dag, I think you did the right thing in not getting involved physically. If you had, there is no telling what the other guy would have done. Even though he was content to stay back when the officer was fighting with his friend, the story might have been different if two men were fighting with his friend.
On a related note, my father was at an arena when a hockey game let out - and immediately turned into a huge brawl. He was a lone uniformed officer trying to keep back what was essentially a riot situation with his night stick, and he was trying desperately to make his way back to his patrol car.
When he got there, he found a kid had jumped into the car and locked the door, yelling into the radio, "Officer down! Officer down! They're kicking the s*** out of him down here!"
Needless to say, there was a great number of police on the scene in moments to break up the scene. Later on, my father found a knife slash in his heavy winter horseleather police overcoat that went from his armpit down to his stomach area. It never pierced the leather, which had special ordered for extra thickness.
But if the kid hadn't thought to radio for help, things could have been a lot worse.
Posts: 3960 | Registered: Jul 2001
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posted
I'm a glasses-wearing, (formerly) clean-cut white guy and I get all kinds of crap from cops for traffic stuff. I once got a ticket for pulling out of a parking lot without my lights on. I hadn't realized they weren't on because the parking lot and street lights were very bright and I had turned the light switch to the parking light setting (therefore all of the dashboard lights were on). I explained all of this to the cop and he still gave me a $100 ticket.
I've only gotten out of a ticket once. That was for going 45 in a 5mph zone, aka 9-times the speed limit. The cop must have not felt it was worth his time to run me in for reckless driving. I always drove 5mph in that parking lot from then on.
Posts: 4753 | Registered: May 2002
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posted
Of course, I also realize that I would get a lot more crap if I were black. I remember, back when I was heavily into Tae Kwon Do, my brother and I went to a tournament in the Chicago-area with a couple of other members of our school (who happened to be black). They offered to take us and my parents gladly accepted, saving themselves from the long drive and sitting around all day at the tournament (which can be dead boring if you're not into what's going on).
On the way back, my brother and I both fell asleep in the back seat. I awoke when the car came to a stop. After about thirty seconds, I realized we had been stopped by a state patrol officer. He made some kind of excuse for stopping us (probably speeding, but we weren't going that fast). My 16-year-old brain probably wouldn't have noticed anything if he hadn't kept glancing at my brother and myself.
It was total B.S. and it's probably the only time in my life I'll ever experience "being stopped" in any capacity.
Posts: 4753 | Registered: May 2002
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posted
I was once pulled over and subsequently had my car and all of my and my (female, half-Asian) friend's belongings searched for cocaine. I was seventeen.
They even went so far as to separate us and question us as to what we were doing and where we were going and why we had taken that particular highway exit (we were almost out of gas, and we were taking a 45-minute drive from Sarasota to my parents' house).
I think maybe the officers (there were two men) were bored. They went through our makeup cases and kept asking us what things were.
"What's this?" "A makeup bag." "What's this?" "....eyeliner." "What are these?" "Uh, jeans?"
posted
I got an update on the officer today. His ankle and wrist were just sprains. His thumb has two or three torn ligaments - it's actually in a cast. He's missing up to 6 weeks of work, although they're not making him do desk duty. He'll still come to court when his previous arrests make it necessary.
This constitutes "serious injury," so this might up the charges against the suspect significantly.
Still, it looks like he's going to be OK.
I thought of something else about the incident. I was behind the car. The car's spotlight was pointing at the suspect.
The suspect's friend definitely saw me. But he couldn't have seen me well. I bet he thought I had a gun. Which explains his highly evident desire to be clearly not part of the fracas.
Posts: 26071 | Registered: Oct 2003
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posted
kq, it was pretty funny when it was happening, but it was MORE funny when they told us after they were done searching that they were having a cocaine problem in the area or something and then followed us to the gas station, presumably to make sure we were really in need of gas (?).
But it was still funny at the time. I don't know what other kind of response they wanted. It's like, you're holding up an eyeshadow and asking me what it is...are you at all familiar with the grooming habits of these "women," as they are called?
posted
Hmm. If I was in the same situation as you, pH (and also assuming that I was a girl), I would have refused to let them search me, my car, or any of my belongings unless they had, hmm, what is it called? Probable cause? I mean, just on principle. They shouldn't be searching you unless they have a very good reason to be doing so.
Posts: 1466 | Registered: Jan 2003
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posted
It's the, "Uh, jeans?" that really gets me.
"Those are my double agent pants. See, the CIA thinks I'm working for them, but really, those pants record all my conversations and send them to the Russians each night."
Posts: 21182 | Registered: Sep 2004
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posted
That looks like eyeshadow, but it's really crystal meth with colors added! Careful with that, that's about $500 worth!
Posts: 21182 | Registered: Sep 2004
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quote:We were aware that we didn't have to let them search the car, though.
Dag can address this, but I think that there is something about being in a car that negates all of your rights. If you get stopped while driving, I believe that the police can go through anything without cause or warrant.
posted
Nope, they have no more right to search your car without probably cause then they would to walk up and knock on your front door and search it. You might get hassled more if you refuse, but I think it's worth it to assert that right.
Posts: 7954 | Registered: Mar 2004
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It's very, very hard to search a house without a warrant. It's very, very easy to search a car without a warrant.
Even if an officer has probable cause to search a house, usually all he can do is seize the house (keep people from going in or going out) until a warrant is obtained. The police have to make the case for exigency - the likelihood that evidence will be destroyed or physical harm will befall a person. Even then, the officer's actions are limited to what is necessary to stop destruction. For example, he can search to make sure no one else is in the house and then keep the suspect in sight (so he can't destroy evidence), but he can't look in drawers.
With cars, there is a bright-line rule that basically says exigency exists, due to their mobility. So probable cause without a warrant is enough to search a car.
It gets worse. During any arrest, police can conduct a "wingspan search," which means they can search anything within reach of the suspect for weapons. Within reach includes lunging distance, and it also includes the entire passenger area of a car - including the cargo section of SUVs and station wagons. Even if the person is in cuffs, the officer can likely get away with searching the passenger compartment.
Why is this so bad? Because in many (most??) states, police can arrest for traffic offenses. Which means if they can pull you over, they can arrest and search the car.
Further, if police have reasonable suspicion of danger to the officer, they can conduct a pat-down of the suspect for weapons. They can also do a wingspan search of the car, which, remember, includes the entire passenger compartment.
Reasonable suspicion is a lower standard than probable cause. It requires articulable reasons why the officer thinks their is danger. Reasonable suspicion of drugs has been said to be enough to suspect danger.
A lot of deference is given to officer experience when examining reasonable suspicion.
In practice, Irami is right: an officer can search a car very easily. You can still decline without interfering. They might search anyway, but you have preserved any objection to any evidence.
A person who consents to a request to search, even thinking they have no choice, will likely have waived such objections later.
(And yes, this was brief. )
Posts: 26071 | Registered: Oct 2003
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