posted
I just watched this short video, which shows a business seminar instructing companies how to fulfill the legal requirements to hire H1-B visa workers, by "disqualifying" all available US workers.
I'm not sure how I feel. Maybe the requirements to hire foreign workers on Visas are strict, but I also know that foreign countries can make it as hard or harder for US workers to get jobs there.
It seems like companies should work to change the laws, if they find them too restrictive or bad for business, so that the public has a say as to how the laws work. Instead, they're finding loopholes, and intentionally circumventing the spirit of the laws.
Seems unethical to me, even if it's strictly legal.
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posted
If the best person for the job is a foreigner, should the company really have to hire an American who is merely qualified? Hiring a foreigner under this system is almost always more expensive than hiring an American, so you can bet there is a reason they are willing to pay more for that candidate.
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posted
I don't know how it works in all companies, but I worked in an IT consulting company where the H1-B workers from India and Mexico got paid much less than the American workers at the same positions, and were told in so many words that if they caused any trouble or asked for more money they'd be fired and sent back home.
I'm not saying that many or most businesses are like that, but if they go to seminars where they learn how to circumvent immigration laws with legal loopholes, I wouldn't guess that they're operating completely on the up and up.
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posted
There are legal regualations that state that the foreign worker must be paid the prevailing wage for the industry and the actual wage paid to their US co-workers. The cases I have heard of where they do tricks to circumvent the laws are cases where the foreign candidate is the clearly better qualified candidate. Both sides play games. but changing the immigration system to something more logical with the current political mindset is not going to happen. Considering the weirdness inherent with the INS, I don't mind when a company plays games to hire the best candidate. I don't like the idea of them hiring for cheap labor and would hope that the rule forbiding that would be enforced.
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posted
Why would that rule be enforced, when the other rules are being intentionally circumvented?
In the particular clip, they discuss making their US hiring guidelines such that they intentionally disallow all US candidates. So it isn't even a matter of hiring the best person for the job, who happens to live overseas, it's a matter of not allowing qualified US candidates an opportunity at all.
Why would they refuse to even consider US candidates for the position? I can't think of a reason to do that, other than cheap labor.
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posted
And the fact that foriegn workers can be stiffed and cheated more, and are reliably less likely to stand up against shady practices.
They're much less of a liability and they keep you from having to keep up the same standards as a legal citizen would.
Posts: 15421 | Registered: Aug 2005
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posted
Ah, something that I feel qualified to say I have expert knowledge on. I've spent the past year researching the H-1B process - first for my econometrics class, then for my senior seminar. I'll probably also write my Ph.D thesis on something related to labor migration...
First off, it is incredibly easy to circumvent the DoL's requirements for hiring a foreign worker under the H-1B program. Laughably simple, even.
Notification steps are required: sometimes all you really have to do is post information at your company's workplace. If your company is in certain fields (mainly computer-related), and has a certain percentage of H-1Bs (around 15%, I think), you're also required to put out ads and conduct a "search" for American workers. But there's almost no oversight for this, except for the big-name companies.
You are also required to pay the foreign worker the prevailing wage - which you enter into the online Labor Condition Application form. However, the "prevailing wage" data can come from pretty much any source - there are standard sources, but you can use others with freedom, and it'd be hard to argue with. There are too many variables that go into the true prevailing wage at any particular time and location for the DoL to possibly have the resources to check this out. In fact, if you file online, you'll be accepted or rejected within a few minutes. Basically, the computer checks to make sure that the wage you'll be paying is not: 1)below the federal minimum wage and 2) below the prevailing wage (which you just entered). So, again, it's super-easy to cheat the system, especially if you aren't a high profile company whose application is likely to be checked over by a human.
Now, the real meaty question: should we care?
My answer is absolutely not. Obviously, companies are gaming the system to bring in cheaper (often overqualified) foreign workers, when they could get Americans. But there's little data that points to it significantly hurting American workers.
In the economics literature (and, I'll admit, there isn't a lot out there on this topic), the data seems to suggest that there is a statistically significant, but small negative impact on native workers' wages. By "small", I mean that the impact was only enough that it set back native workers a month or two, at the most (if they were hired in May, it's as if they were hired in March). This result was found in a number of different specifications (computer industry vs. all H-1B, only the states with high levels of H-1Bs, etc).
There is a lagged negative effect on unemployment, but, again, it also isn't very large. It also comes close to disappearing if you take out the computer industry during dot-com bust - it was a time when everyone was cutting back, and the cap was still quite high for H-1Bs.
There are also a lot of benefits of bringing in H-1Bs. In effect, we are gaining the best minds other countries have to offer. Since the H-1B is a duel-purpose visa (both work and immigration), these workers can often stay in the US as eventual green card or (even later) citizens. The value-added here is immense: I grew up in Silicon Valley, and I can tell you, if it weren't for the H-1B program, the computer & internet industry as we currently know it wouldn't exist. And if the workers eventually go back to their countries, well, I'm okay with that too. Nearly half of H-1Bs, for instance, are Indian, and I'm glad that they can come to the US, do valuable work for their employers, then return to India with the skills, knowledge, and contacts they've gained to help out their developing economy.
Now, one thing I have a problem with is that companies tell foreign employees that if they cause trouble, they'll be fired, then kicked out of the country. The "kicked out" part is not (necessarily) true. If you are fired by an employer (or want to quit), you can stay in the country as long as you don't work. Once you find a new employer (or switch visa status), you can have that employer file for your H-1B and begin work for him. The law was specifically changed to avoid having employers treat their H-1Bs like slave labor.
MightyCow - to address your last question (I think I got most of the others in the post above):
Companies enjoy hiring H-1B for a number of reasons - first, there really are shortages in different industries for qualified workers. Second - cheaper labor. Third, foreign workers (particularly from India & China) are often used to working more efficiently with fewer resources - that's how they had to work back home, and that's how they'll often work here.
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posted
While I don't necessarily disagree with you, Jhai, and even agree that allowing more immigration is a good thing, if there is a qualified candidate that is willing to work for the same wage they would pay the H-1B worker, I am not sure it is right to find ways to disqualify that candidate, because it's kind of like saying that one person is worth more than another on the basis of where they live before hiring them and seeing how they will work out, when one is not more qualified than the other, and one is local. I don't know, maybe it's because my husband has spent a lot of time unemployed or underemployed, but something stinks about the process to me.
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posted
Jhai, I disagree that there's a shortage of skilled workers. Rather, I think it's obvious that there's a shortage of skilled workers willing to work for peanuts while chained beneath someone else's desk.
Posts: 37449 | Registered: May 1999
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posted
It seems obvious to me that the "prevailing wage" nonsense is the real kicker here. Having worked for years in IT, I can tell you with certainty that the very same position at a company can have a ridiculous salary range, partly because so many levels of qualification could conceivably do the job, and partly because it can be a specialized job that requires a specific, fairly rare knowledge and skill set, so a qualified worker can sometimes set a price.
For an example, many years ago I was hired for an IT job and offered an initial salary under $30k a year. My headhunter negotiated it to nearly TWICE that before I accepted the job. I don't imagine that a lot of foreign labor would have the resources available to demand that kind of difference, and if the company can halve the salary of its entire technology workforce, why not?
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posted
There was a significant dip in the number of Computer Science majors in the past few years, and it is still extremely common for someone with lackluster skills to bill themselves as skilled (and be able to trick at least a fair number of people long enough to get hired).
I have no problem believing companies are having a hard time finding qualified IT workers, particularly in some geographic areas. I mean, a large IT company can hire every unemployed programmer in a medium to medium-large-sized city, and a good number of the employed ones, and still have a hiring need.
I do have a problem with the H1B visa program, though, I think that once the person has arrived in the US and after a short initial period (say, 6 months), they should be free to act like any other US worker.
Or even better, our immigration barriers should just generally be lowered, and we can get rid of H1Bs entirely.
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quote:I mean, a large IT company can hire every unemployed programmer in a medium to medium-large-sized city, and a good number of the employed ones, and still have a hiring need.
Then they should train more programmers. It's not like it's a difficult skill to learn.
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posted
Uh huh. So by no shortage you mean "well, it wouldn't be a shortage if companies spent at least several months training employees (edit: without the skills to do the job before the training) on their own dime".
And being a good programmer, which presumably most companies would like, is a difficult skill to learn.
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quote:Then they should train more programmers. It's not like it's a difficult skill to learn.
It's not hard to train a programmer to cobble together a web site or some home-grown database system. But it is hard to learn to program well, and not everyone can do it.
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quote:I mean, a large IT company can hire every unemployed programmer in a medium to medium-large-sized city, and a good number of the employed ones, and still have a hiring need.
Then they should train more programmers. It's not like it's a difficult skill to learn.
Or they could provide incentives for programmers in rural areas who may be doing other jobs to come work for them in the cities. Or both.
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posted
Continuing on Dagonee's comment, employing so-called 'programmers' to do that sort of programming can end up costing a company significant money in the long run, frequently more than was made in the first place. Large sums of money routinely get offered to the shrine of the spaghetti code god.
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posted
kq: they frequently do. That does not mean they always get enough. There is significant and increasing demand for IT workers in this country, particularly those who are capable of working on a team, and the number of CS graduates is currently in decline.
Want a simple proof that demand is increasing and supply isn't keeping up? The average starting salary of CS graduates is going up much faster than the average increase for college graduates.
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quote:So by no shortage you mean "well, it wouldn't be a shortage if companies spent at least several months training employees (edit: without the skills to do the job before the training) on their own dime".
Absolutely. As opposed to fleecing foreign workers, permitting American workers to languish without job training, and then shipping back those foreign workers once we've trained them? That's hardly a win-win.
quote:There is significant and increasing demand for IT workers in this country, particularly those who are capable of working on a team, and the number of CS graduates is currently in decline.
Having spoken to a lot of people who aren't getting CS degrees, I can say with some degree of surety that this is because the perception is that you will not get hired for any serious work, and will instead have your entry-level coding job outsourced at the earliest opportunity. The perception is now that you need both a CS degree and a MBA to break into the industry, and specifically to break into the industry at a level where you can be in charge of all the foreign labor your boss is determined to hire.
Posts: 37449 | Registered: May 1999
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posted
Then those people need better critical thinking skills. There are tons of places out there hiring people to do programming/IT work for good salary, including places doing the sorts of training you think every place that can't find workers should do that are hiring people without CS degrees. The average starting salary for a computer science major from a decent school is around $50k, and at a good school it breaks $60k. And the number of jobs employers are seeking to hire frequently exceeds the number of candidates at the above average schools.
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posted
Funny...I know at least 10 people, all with degrees from good schools AND good work histories who aren't working in the CS field because of outsourcing.
Most of them gave up and are working in other areas now, because their job security...even with big, profitable firms, wasn't worth a crap.
Posts: 15082 | Registered: Jul 2001
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posted
Wow. If the average starting salary for a computer science major is around $50k, I'm getting ripped. Currently, I'm working for about half that.
But then again, I'm living in a rural area. I love the job, I like the community, and there's a bunch of job benefits. Maybe it's a worthwhile trade.
But seriously, no one would even give me a shake until I found this 'working for peanuts' job. And I know one of the biggest reasons I got this job was not because of experience. I actually beat out two other (significantly) experienced applicants because of my people skills and the fact I had a terrific personal connection. I took it, and I love the job, though I'm always conscious that it wasn't necessarily merits that won me the position.
Also, I think what Tom posted about perception of the field is probably correct, in my experience. I know my perception has been warped slighly by this experience. But at least I'm conscious of this effect. Posts: 1813 | Registered: Apr 2001
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posted
One reason starting salaries can be high for new graduates is they tend to be willing to move. Employment in CS tends to be fairly localized, and of course dependent on local standard of living.
If you want, I can name some major tech companies that are currently trying to hire hundreds of skilled developers and not finding enough; I have enough connections being at a decent CS/IT school here that I hear of a lot of such.
As for needing to supervise 'foreign labor', the total number of outsourced jobs plus the total number of foreign workers on visa in the US is a small percentage of the total job market. In fact, in many sub-sectors the percentage has gone down as outsourcing experiments fail to pan out.
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posted
I thought outsourcing was when a company did not hire someone in house to do a job, but hired another company to take care of it. The other company may be in India, hiring all Indians, or it could be down the street. The H1-B status wouldn't affect the effects of outsourcing since they are bringing people to the US to work in their company.
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posted
It should also be pointed out that "IT" is a large industry, and the different career paths there have quite different rates of supply & demand.
My husband, Abhi, is in product management, and was having trouble finding a new job when we were living in Silicon Valley. The places that were hiring weren't interested in dealing with his visa paperwork, since there were plenty of qualified Americans for the type of job he wanted. If he had been willing to suck it up and get a developing job (he's quite qualified, but hates it), he would have had a lot of options.
(Of course, when eBay and a few other companies finally started getting interested in his resume, we were already in the process of moving to DC...)
Also, everything fugu has said in this thread is in line with my knowledge of the IT field and the H-1B program.
Posts: 2409 | Registered: Sep 2003
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posted
Another couple stories from my largely H1-B past job:
There were several US citizens there working, and we all had a lot of say in what we did, how we did it, and how much we got paid. We got regular raises, or we moved to other companies where we got paid more - the H1-B workers didn't have that ease of mobility, so they rarely got raises, or when they did, the raises were small.
My friend and I (both citizens) told the boss we didn't want to spend a lot of time traveling, as we had families in town and didn't want to be away for long periods of time. The H1-B workers were told where they were going to travel, and didn't get to say no.
It really did seem a lot like indentured servitude. A few of the guys I spoke with told me that they sent almost all of their money home to Mexico or India to support their family, so they couldn't afford to lose the job, or they wouldn't have living expenses to stay in the country looking for another job. Since many small companies didn't want to deal with all the paperwork, they were also limited in which places they could look for work, if they wanted to.
From my experience, it doesn't seem like the system works very well for anybody except the big companies. They figure out how to take advantage of the system, hurting both US workers who may be qualified to do the job, and the H1-B applicants they get to come work in somewhat unfair conditions.
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That is why I want the system at minimum opened to allow much greater job mobility for H1-B visa holders. A short waiting period is sensible, since companies will have gone through some trouble to bring the person over, but if they don't treat that person well during the (six month, say) waiting period, that person would probably be pretty likely to move jobs.
This would also result in more efficient allocation of resources; right now there is a barrier to trade of job skills even after the people enter the country. Coincidentally, it should make the salaries for H1-B visa holders closely approximate the salaries for similar workers, as the visa holders will have similar job mobility.
Posts: 15770 | Registered: Dec 2001
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posted
Um, the H-1B workers aren't exactly being "hurt" by the program. They want to come over here, as the jobs they are getting are better than the jobs than they can get back home. This year the H-1B cap was reached less than 30 hours after the filing period was opened.
It might be nice if they were paid more, and I'm sure would like to be paid more, but, then, I'd like to be paid more too (and a pink pony would be good too ). As long as they aren't being lied to (and some are), I don't really think the program as it currently stands is unfair to them, anymore than it's unfair that they were born in a country other than the US.
That being said, I'd love to see the H-1B program expanded, and the restrictions on the workers decreased.
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