quote:Illegal Immigrants' Cost to Government Studied
By Mary Fitzgerald Washington Post Staff Writer Thursday, August 26, 2004; Page A21
A report that found that illegal immigrants in the United States cost the federal government more than $10 billion a year -- a sum it estimated would almost triple if they were given amnesty -- has drawn criticism from immigration advocacy groups.
For its report, the Center for Immigration Studies, a Washington-based group that advocates tougher immigration policies, used Census Bureau figures to compare the revenue that illegal immigrants contribute through taxes with the cost of government services they use.
"Households headed by illegal aliens imposed more than $26.3 billion in costs on the federal government in 2002 and paid only $16 billion in taxes, creating a net fiscal deficit of $10.4 billion, or $2,700 per illegal household," said Steven A. Camarota, author of the study.
The costs outlined in the report include government services such as Medicaid, medical treatment for the uninsured, food assistance programs, the federal prison and court systems, and federal aid to schools.
The study acknowledged that, on average, the costs that illegal-immigrant households bear on the federal government are less than half that of other households, and that many of those costs relate to their U.S.-born children. It also pointed out that tax payments by illegal-immigrant households constitute one-fourth those of other households because of low-income jobs.
"With nearly two-thirds of illegal aliens lacking a high school degree, the primary reason they create a fiscal deficit is their low education levels and resulting low incomes and tax payments, not their legal status or heavy use of most social services," Camarota said.
The report estimates that granting legal status to illegal immigrants would dramatically increase their cost, causing the net fiscal deficit to rise to nearly $29 billion because, the author argues, unskilled immigrants would have access to more government services while continuing to make modest tax payments.
Camarota concluded in his report that the fiscal impact could be lessened only by stringently enforcing immigration laws, a view that drew criticism from some immigration specialists and advocacy groups that also accused him of not coming up with constructive recommendations.
"Implied within this study's findings is the sense that if these people could suddenly be made to disappear, the federal government would be $10 billion to the plus, and that is almost certainly not true once you look at the numbers," Jeffrey S. Passel, a demographer at the Urban Institute, said in an interview.
"Should you charge up to undocumented aliens the cost of small-business loans that they don't get or the cost of civil litigation, among other things? This report does that," he said.
Frank Sharry, director of the National Immigration Forum, an immigrant advocacy group, took issue with the report's treatment of illegal immigrants' U.S.-born children, who are American citizens.
"The costs of the children of immigrants are accounted for [in the report], but not their contributions to the economy as workers and taxpayers," he said in a written statement, adding that the report's conclusions were not helpful to the debate on immigration reform.
"There is a growing consensus in both political parties that our immigration system needs to be comprehensively reformed," Sharry said. "Our current system of haphazard laws, spotty enforcement, border chaos and unfair restrictions needs to be replaced by a regulatory regime that makes immigration safe, legal and orderly."
quote:"The costs of the children of immigrants are accounted for [in the report], but not their contributions to the economy as workers and taxpayers,"
This it the key sentence for me. It sounds like they are looking at total cost, but then only subtracting total income tax revenue. I don't know how you'd measure it, but I'm convinced that if you were able to factor in the increased taxes from the businesses that benefit from immigrant labor it'd actually be a net profit for the government.
Posts: 4534 | Registered: Jan 2003
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I agree Mike. I was thinking the same thing as I was reading the article, and was planning to post just that, but you said it well, so there's no need. That would be a difficult thing to measure, but I'll bet it could be done. I'll have to think about how.
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My main beef against illegal aliens is that they often pack more that one actively-child-bearing mother into a dwelling zoned for a single family. In places where public schools receive the majority of their funding through property taxes, it is not fair for a single family dwelling to send children from multiple families to public school. I know this practice of packing multiple families into a single home is not limited to any particular ethnic group, and I know that illegal aliens are an important part of our economy, and I know that many voters support politicians who advocate amnesty for illegal aliens, but I think when more than one family takes up residence in a home, that home needs to be rezoned as a multiple family dwelling so that family can pay a property tax in proportion to the number of children that household has in the public school system.
Posts: 2655 | Registered: Feb 2004
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posted
If it comes to that, the Native Americans immigrated at some point too. I suspect you'd have real trouble, at this late date, figuring out which tribe was first. In any case, they also wiped out the megafauna of the North American continent, who are clearly the rightful inhabitants. So as soon as our genetic engineering lets us reconstruct those species, everybody goes back. In the case of the Native Americans, that's back to Siberia. Have a nice trip.
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posted
So you favor tighter regulation of landlords, then? Renters don't pay property taxes, at least in Utah.
Posts: 11017 | Registered: Apr 2003
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posted
Strictly for the sake of security, there shouldn't be an open border at all.
Another issue for me is that there is a certain degree of self sufficiency that countries should aspire to. Ideally, I'd love to see people not *have* to immigrate for jobs from any country. So, my basic thought would be that maybe the US should look at why people are immigrating from other countries and perhaps work towards helping other countries be more self sufficient. Perhaps devise some standards that a country must adhere to before we let people from that country immigrate to our country. Things like birth rates and equity of wages, for instance. This would be done not because we're mean or xenophobic, but because in the long run it's in the country, and the international community's, best interest for a country to be self sufficient.
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Both illegal and legal aliens pat NOTHING in taxes. I know people that are cashing the checks of the immigrants here in Springdale and not a penny is withheld in taxs for those working at Tyson. Yeah, THAT Tyson, the one that does all that chicken in your grocers cooler/freezer?
Posts: 986 | Registered: Jul 2001
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skillery: why not change the basis on which most counties raise funds for public schooling instead? If schooling were paid for from a different source, in addition to doing away with the problem you noted, it would end the situation where schools in the wealthiest neighborhoods have the most resources, while schools in poorer areas, which arguably need more, have less.
quote:Strictly for the sake of security, there shouldn't be an open border at all.
Storm, I'm a little confused at this statement. Do you mean that we should no longer allow immigration of any kind, or do you mean that we should no longer allow international travel of any kind? From a strictly security standpoint, nothing short of the latter is going to do it. But clearly that's not an option. Not only does the US benefit immensely from international tourism (this is a HUGE industry), but we also benefit from international trade, which would be mighty difficult to pull off with no international travel. That aside, it would hurt all kinds of businesses that sell products overseas and need to send representatives there or bring them here. And, of course, over all of that is the fact that no American would ever stand for that kind of oppression.
But even if you just meant cutting off all immigration it would still be disastrous for the US. Forget, for the moment, that immigrants (legal and illegal) are a vital and necessary part of our labor force. They are also the only reason that we can maintain a stable population. You can make the argument that the world needs fewer people anyway, but I don't think that's really where you meant to go with your statement.
Posts: 4534 | Registered: Jan 2003
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posted
I'm with Icarus on this one. Paying for schools out of property taxes is dooming TX schools to generally sink from bad to worse. There are, of course, pockets of affluence where the schools are quite good. But just a few blocks away, in a different "Independent School District -- ISD" the educational quality sucks.
Posts: 22497 | Registered: Sep 2000
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First off, I am a big fan of the change Bush recently made to allow immigrants in on three year working status. I think that we should still welcome in the huddling masses.
Secondly, this article complains about the toll these poor people put on our government. What about our own poor citizens? They provide the very same strain on the country. But it is OK, because they were born here.
I really don't understand the US mentality of "entitlement". We were lucky to be born in a rich country full of opportunities. I want to share that with the people who risk their necks trying to get into this country illegally. Give them work permits. Tax them. Then send them home with the money they made to their families. They are known, numbered, and counted that way. They and their families have benefited by being here. Our nation's economy has benefited by having workers willing to take many of the jobs it's own citizens are "too good" for. Our government has taxed them. Perhaps they have benefited from some of our government's programs as well. They are people too.
If they want to come in and become US citizens, let them show that they want to be part of this country. Learn the language, the customs, be a part of us. Then they can enjoy these priviledges their entire lives and pass down those blessings to their posterity.
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saxon75, I should have said 'porous border through which people can easily enter the country illegally'. Sorry for the confusion. Of course we should allow some immigration into the country.
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Yes, Icarus, the ultimate in tacky. I saw a commercial for it. Eating bugs, lying down in a coffin covered in worms, the usual stuff that people have to do to prove they are worthwhile Americans. (tongue in cheek)(am feeling quite bitter about this one)
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Perhaps you remember the Mexicans suing the US govt for not installing drinking fountains in the middle of the Arizona desert ?
Or the fact that CA illegals want legal drivers liscenes with no marks differentiating them from normal liscences of legal citizens ?
There's even a bill being introduced into Congress to prevent paying illegal immigrants Social Security. I have no idea why the government would look into the possibility of paying illegals SS in the first place.
I have no grudges against immigrants. This country was built by them and still needs them. They keep the American spirit fresh. I would much rather see the immigration system reformed and the number of green cards increased. People who follow the rules should see the benefits, not the ones who break the law.
Posts: 349 | Registered: Feb 2004
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The prize isn't a green card, but a law firm's promise to help you apply and get a gree card. There's still no guarantee, and as of yet, no winner has actually obtained a green card.
Posts: 26077 | Registered: Mar 2000
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A lien should be illegal. I abhor them. Giving someone else the rights to your property just seems damned unfair. As to the cost of all these illegal liens, that is harder to assess. Usually the value of the property seized is greater than the debt involved but quantifying the difference on a national scale is nigh impossible.
Mexican immigrants here in Springdale/Rogers Arkansas work mainly at the Tyson plants here. Tyson chicken . There are NO income taxes withheld from their checks. None. Nada. Zip. Zilch. I also worked for an Indian (not Native American)in South Carolina. He got government loans thrown at him from every direction with little interest. He also doesn't pay taxes. He owned 11 hotels/motels and 3 stores when I worked for him and was in the process of buying 23 more between Georgia and Tennessee. He brings his 'family' in to work these places and they too pay no taxes. But an American citizen doesn't get those breaks. Immigrants are automatically put on the gov't dole for health insurance when 15 million of us are without.
Don't get me wrong, I don't begrudge giving anyone a helping hand up. But it needs to be equal at the very least and preferably, those of us who are citizens should be given a slight edge when it comes to gov't working for the People. But even now, there are proposals in D.C. and other states to allow legal and non legal immigrants to VOTE in local elections. And as already been pointed out, drivers lisences. Even Tennessee is giving 'ID/Licenses' to illegals.
We have our own citizens having to decide to either buy their meds or buy food. We have our citizens being disenfranchised when it comes to the RIGHT to vote yet we are talking about allowing NON citizens voting rights? Something is truely out of whack with our system.
Posts: 986 | Registered: Jul 2001
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Bob, I read your opening post at work last night and sadly couldn't reply from there. But the same statement kept going through my head, even through the drive home last night:
"Well, as people throughout history could tell you -- the upkeep of slaves isn't cheap, no matter how much you save on labor costs."
It might sound extreme, but arrests for slavery charges have been levelled in Florida, Texas and North Carolina in the past couple of years dealing with illegal aliens. And there are numerous, almost epidemic type, cases of the old "company store" situations that they get trapped in.
The company store, for those who aren't familiar with it, is where an employer pays his charges a wage and then offers housing, utilities, food and whatnot to the employees. Deductions to the pay are given for housing, etc. and it eventually works into the employee actually owing the employer to the point where they can't quit until the ever-growing debt is paid.
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quote: The study acknowledged that, on average, the costs that illegal-immigrant households bear on the federal government are less than half that of other households, and that many of those costs relate to their U.S.-born children.
from Bob's original post.
So in a way this article is somewhat slanted -- it leads by saying what a "strain" they are to the system ($2700 per household) but then turns right around and says that number is LESS than other poor American families who are not illegal. And that the problem is that they are poor, not that they are illegal. It never says what the AVERAGE American household costs the government, by comparison.
I'm going to re-read it again. I think the first two or three paragraphs are trying to get you to lean one particular way before they give you most detail later on.
posted
Dag, does that hold true for Puerto Rico as well? I am always so confused as to how that works.
Posts: 10890 | Registered: May 2003
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quote:A lien should be illegal. I abhor them. Giving someone else the rights to your property just seems damned unfair.
No, what's unfair is putting thousands of dollars of labor time and materials into the construction of a home and having no recourse to recover your money if the homeowner just decides not to pay. Without lien laws, home construction would cost ten times more than it does, because contractors would have no way to ensure they do get paid.
Until you pay the plumber, all the pipe and fittings and the fixtures belong to him. So his property is now contained in your house. His only way to recover his property is for you to pay him for it, since it's illegal for him to come into your house and rip the pipes out of the wall.
There's nothing unfair about the lien law - it just says in principle, that a portion of your house belongs to the contractor, until you pay him what you owe.
What burns me up is people who build houses they can't afford, and when they run out of money in the end, they think they can just not pay the contractors.
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quote:Both illegal and legal aliens pat NOTHING in taxes. I know people that are cashing the checks of the immigrants here in Springdale and not a penny is withheld in taxs for those working at Tyson. Yeah, THAT Tyson, the one that does all that chicken in your grocers cooler/freezer?
But both are supposes to pay taxes. Certainly there's no more opportunity for a legal alien to evade taxes than a citizen.
Dagonee P.S., ElvenWench, check out the name of the poster you responded to. 'Twas a joke.
Posts: 26071 | Registered: Oct 2003
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quote: "Households headed by illegal aliens imposed more than $26.3 billion in costs on the federal government in 2002 and paid only $16 billion in taxes
This part of the quote says that they DO pay taxes.... at least some of them
posted
BookWyrm, If what you are saying is true, I urge you to alert the IRS because it is clearly illegal. Under the law, non-resident aliens are taxed at a higher rate than US-citizens because they are not allowed to take the standard deduction. If Tyson is not withholding income tax and FICA from non-citizen employees, they are violating the law. I recommend that if you have evidence that this is really happening, you report them to the IRS now.
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Elven, I am a painting contractor so I'm quite familiar with the benefits of the lien laws. I just saw the chance to make a silly joke and I took it.
*In my best Emily Litela voice* "Never mind"
Posts: 2022 | Registered: Mar 2004
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Before you read: this only aplies to you if the boot fits you. I do not want to insult or confront or cause any friction between me and anyone else. I just had to say this, sorry.
I'm sorry for those that would disagree with me, but as a Mexican, I have to speak for my people. I've lived in the U.S. for around 14 years of my life, I'm currently 17, and of those 14, I was an illegal alien for around half. I got my green card around a year ago, and I became a citizen around two months ago in July. I believe that its not your fault that your gov't is corrupt, the city is insecure, there are few jobs, little education, and to top it of, you've got a family to sustain. Therefore, if they decide to come to the U.S. risking their lives and never seeing their family again, then I respect the fact that they've got such faith in this country. I know I do. Sure you may continue telling us to go "home" but guess what? We go down and so do you little gringitos. Why? becuse honestly, I DO NOT SEE YOU PICKING LETTUCE OUT OF ANY WHITE GUY'S FIELDS LIKE I KNOW MY MOM ONCE DID SO I COULD CONTINUE STUDYING AND HAVE THE LIFE SHE COULD HAVE. Period.
I don't care if any one has got anything to say about what I've just said. I don't think you can picture things the way that I do. And if you tell us to go "home", then maybe so should you, after all, Free Country U.S.A. was established and is enhabited mostly by imigrant decendants (natives are OK).
Posts: 3389 | Registered: Apr 2004
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See, he has a point. There are lots of jobs that many white people won't take. Most of these are seasonal in nature.
My dad recalls when migrant workers could come in for these seasonal jobs, make enough money to sustain their family for the year, and then go home when growing season was over. White people complained, the program was eliminated. Did us white people take those jobs? Heck no, they were too hard for too little money. So the migrant workers kept on doing it, but now they were illegal and very often farmers took advantage of this.
That said, I think reform is very important. Some of the things that happen are extremely irritating. My husband, an immigrant, has had his SS used in order to get things they couldn't otherwise get without an SS. Like a bank account. Not nice for our credit. Not all illegal aliens are just innocent people who need work. Many are quite willing to take advantage and con people, which is why we do need a major overhaul with the system.
Posts: 438 | Registered: Apr 2004
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BookWyrm, I'm confused about this whole tax thing. My parents are both immigrants, and I have had many close immigrant friends everywhere that I've lived (including one who was, in essence, a "company store" type slave). My parents paid taxes, as do all of the immigrants I've known who had jobs. Growing up, we were certainly not on the government dole for health insurance. I spent many years without, and do not currently have dental (and desperately need it). Clearly, there must be some pretty serious qualifications to your first paragraph, assuming it is true. You have made what appear to be blanket statements about the benefits immigrants make that I know not to be true. Can you clarify that a bit? I'm with Rabbit on this: it sounds like Tyson is breaking the law, if what you say is true. You should report them.
Posts: 13680 | Registered: Mar 2002
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I'm sure it's safe to assume that a greater proportion of LEGAL immigrants than ILLEGAL immigrants pay taxes. I know some illegal immigrants who pay taxes. They have an interesting problem, however, in that they have to have a SSN in order to pay taxes, but being illegal they can't get a SSN. They might have a work permit, but then they'd be legal to work. So, when you say illegal you really mean people who came here illegally, or legally but then either worked illegally or stayed past their visa and are now here illegally.
For most people in that situation, life is a constant game of trying hard to stay below the government's radar. They don't use a lot of social services because, even though no-one is supposed to ask if they are legal or not down at the health clinic, the fear is that someone will raid the place or follow them or something.
These people make great exploitable workers because an employer can always hold over them the threat of deportation. It's another big game. The major employers (say, Walmart, or the hotels) hire through a third party "worker supply" firm. They know they are hiring illegals, but they put the burden off on the 3rd party who is ready to affirm that "sure, we checked every one and they are all legally here in the US <wink wink>" Then, when the workers are caught and deported, Walmart et al. deny any responsibility. The 3rd party firm quickly vanishes (pocketing the pay owed to its workers, usually), and the government is left holding the bag and a bunch of people it has to pay to deport.
Another aspect of this that should be viewed is that the cost of rounding up and deporting illegal aliens is such that any savings to be had from them NOT being here (i.e., we don't pay for the measly services they do use) would be far outweighed by the costs of incarceration and transport.
In other words, it's probably cheaper in the long run just to let the people loose and have them slide back into the economy.
And they do contribute to the economy in other ways besides taxes. Everyone eats. Everyone buys clothing. Something. And those purchases are taxed as well. It may not amount to much, but it sure as heck wasn't mentioned as a benefit to the economy in that article. I'm not sure if the analysis covered it or not.
Another thing to consider: The children of illegal immigrants can grow up to contribute to this country. They can be soldiers (as my father was, having been born to an illegal immigrant father). They can develop top secret things for the defense department to use to protect our country from submarine attack (also my Dad...son of an illegal immigrant). They can have grand kids who go on to also contribute.
We have to think long term here. The unskilled laborer who comes here because there are oppotunities for her children isn't a slacker. She's a pioneer. Her kids are probably (okay, I have no data...) more likely than similarly poor CITIZEN's kids to make real contributions to this nation. I say that because the illegal immigrant mom is probably more insistent that her children look upon this place as a land of opportunity and make sure they don't squander the chances that come their way. And they aren't as likely to decide that the government owes them something. Besides, they're usually too afraid to take the assistance because then the government "knows" about them.
Finally, I think the analysis is obviously flawed. It leaves out far more benefits than it leaves out costs. That's a bias of the people who did the study. The other problem that I see with it is that while some of the data clearly show that poverty is a serious issue, the authors don't explore the poverty angle at all. What about the cost to society of poverty? Maybe what we really need is some sort of economic reform/stimulus program to reduce poverty. If it worked, the cost of illegal aliens, legal aliens and "poor people" in general should drop to the point that even xenophobic jerks like the people who funded this crappy research could accept it all.
quote: See, he has a point. There are lots of jobs that many white people won't take.
Sigh. This is BS on so many different levels. I'm not even going to comment on the whole white people thing, which is obviously racist, and just point out that the reason only illegal immigrants work certain jobs at the present point in time in this country is because they have to. They do it not because they are naturally harder workers, but because they are locked out of other jobs that Americans can get and have nothing else to work at.
If you let the market actually work and payed people what they 'should' be payed for hard, dirty, crappy work, you would see Americans working those jobs.
'OMG, Storm! But then we would have to pay more for our fruits and vegetables!'
Yeah. Just as you have to pay more for other services only accessible to Americans. Just as YOU get payed more for doing those jobs. That's part of the price we all pay for living in a community, ie a nation. You put your community first.
So, am I saying that there isn't a place for immigration? Absolutely not. Am I saying that htere isn't a place for foreign investment? Absolutely not. But I have a hard time understanding why people are advocating a two-tier system in wages, one that cashes in on people who have nowhere else to go, ie the next best thing to slave labor. This, to me, is what advocating allowing illegal immigrants to work in this country amounts to. It's sometimes what the so-called exportation of jobs amounts to. If you believe in the 40 hour week, and family, and the idea of a 'working wage', then you should be against illegal immigration and over-immigration, it seems to me. I think as long as there are a significant amount of people out of work here, maybe we should think of our community, ie our nation, first before we start thinking about 'giving' jobs to people in other countries.
AoD, I am glad you are here. I'm sorry your mom had to work in such crappy conditions, but you said it at the beginning of your post
quote: I believe that its not your fault that your gov't is corrupt, the city is insecure, there are few jobs, little education, and to top it of, you've got a family to sustain.
I respectfully disagree. All of these things are, to a large extent, Mexicans' 'fault'. If you allow it to be so, then shouldn't you have a little pride in your nation and fix things? It's great that
quote: ...they've got such faith in this country.
but shouldn't people change things in Mexico, too? Aren't there any Mexicans who love Mexico?
I am sure part of the reason Mexico is the way it is is because of America. Being able to emmigrate rather than be forced to fix the problems in your own country is one reason. I know that corporations and our government have played a more direct role in keeping Mexico poor by exporting jobs to China rather than keeping them in Mexico. Given that I've said that Americans should put Americans first, we have a long and valuable history with Mexicans, Canadians, etc., not to mention that they are democracies, and we should put *them* first before cashing in on China. In other words, they are more a part of our 'community' than China is.
I'm not oblivious to the fact that there is a synergy going on between us and other countries. So, while I think Americans should think of other Americans first, I don't think they should do so at the expense of other countries if possible.
posted
Does anyone not agree that claiming to quantify the cost of undocumented aliens has to be spurious? They are undocumented for Pete's sake. I don't doubt bookwyrm's account, but I also don't think it is generally the case. I think an undocumented alien is just as likely to submit false documents and be employed as a citizen as they are to be brought under an illegal labor scheme at a major manufacturer. Or they are paid cash under that table, as in Tom Hank's latest documentary, "The Terminal"
I don't see non-citizen voting rights, unless we want to return to the days of testing for "literacy" to let people vote. I know there are already citizens who don't know English- how do they vote? Just as a question, totally out of line with the course of my reasoning.
Posts: 11017 | Registered: Apr 2003
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quote:Sigh. This is BS on so many different levels. I'm not even going to comment on the whole white people thing, which is obviously racist, and just point out that the reason only illegal immigrants work certain jobs at the present point in time in this country is because they have to. They do it not because they are naturally harder workers, but because they are locked out of other jobs that Americans can get and have nothing else to work at.
If you let the market actually work and payed people what they 'should' be payed for hard, dirty, crappy work, you would see Americans working those jobs.
And the alternative is, people do without things that are not worth the cost when the market is not manipulated to keep it low. Which is a good thing. A lot of harm occurs because the true "cost" of many things is not reflected in the price people pay for it.
posted
I believe that literacy isn't a prerequisite of voting, just as property ownership, gender and race aren't. As far as I know, the only requirements are citizenship in good standing (non-felon), age (18+), and whether you bothered to go register.
People can vote without learning English. I believe states print ballots in multiple languages. English still isn't an official language here, although some people want it to be.
----
I work picking vegetables and grasses, planting stuff, counting seeds, and doing a whole lot of really boring work so that I can go to college. I'm sure that if seasonal labor and other sorts of really boring/difficult work paid a living wage, people would be willing to do it.
I also think that advocacy for illegal aliens amnesty/voting rights/etc. does nothing to help the LEGAL immigrants who wrestled their way through the system. We should do our best to make it less of a headache for immigrants to come into the country legally and more of a headache for people to enter through the 2000 mile long backdoor. Then we can work on getting farms and hotels and Wal-Mart to pay a reasonable wage (Increase minimum wage from $5.15 -- in Oregon it's over $7.00 right now).
Yeah, our goods and services would be more expensive, but it would help reduce poverty (especially poverty where you're working full time), and the IRS could collect taxes more reliably.
Posts: 1592 | Registered: Jan 2001
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posted
I think the problem with any "scheme" of this kind would be that our economy isn't really capable of absorbing this much change in a short time period and staying "healthy." And easing away from illegal labor is going to be tough to do in any kind of gradual way.
Posts: 22497 | Registered: Sep 2000
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posted
The problem with mexico, is of course, the way that people think, They don't really think of helping their neighbor, but how to screw him up, that doesn't apply to all people of course... These are just diffrent cultures, yes people must adapt and stuff, but I as a mexican, have lost hope in mexico's gov't, I really believe in the american, and the reason is that it doesn't have such a long history of corruptness. PRI took over mexican politics for over 70 yrs. Simply ruining it for everyone else, and now people DEMAND that Fox, who's from PAN fix all what PRI did? WTF is that?! I guess its my american way of thinking that says that, but i think that anyone with a right mind would think that. Oh, yeah, my mom says that one of the most basic, not beliefs or principles, but something like that, is that You are born to suffer. Well that would be you, but not me, is what my aunt says, what Americans practice, and what I think.
Posts: 3389 | Registered: Apr 2004
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posted
The problem with such articles is that the authors carefully refuse to divulge information which would useful in evaluating conclusions. Since lack of information usually implies that what is missing would falsify the argument, my first thought would be that the majority of taxes paid by the poor aren't counted through simple false labeling of what is and what is not a tax, as well as by miscrediting who is actually paying the tax.
quote:I as a mexican, have lost hope in mexico's gov't
If all countries of North America had similar laws and if the governments of those countries enforced those laws to the same extent, then we could erase the borders and declare everyone "legal."
It would get tricky when it came to taxes, health care, and retirement. We might have to have a single health care and retirement fund for all of North America and pool the taxes collected in those countries.
The only problem that I see to opening the borders is that most people are too dumb or too lazy to learn a second language. The language barrier will always be a source of conflict.
Posts: 2655 | Registered: Feb 2004
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posted
Perhaps I shouldn't have said "white people" but simply American born citizens who are used to certain lifestyles. Because many migrant workers are willing to live a much lower lifestyle than many of us, and are willing to put up with more crap in search of opportunity for their children, the fact that many of them are not as 'educated' as to what they should be 'entitled' to, means that they are quite willing to work at far lower wages than most American citizens. Face it people: even our poor are rich compared to a great many people in this world. We are a spoiled society.
I picked blueberries. I picked strawberries. I trimmed Christmas trees. My sister and I were almost the only "white people" doing that. But it really has nothing to do with skin color, but a lot to do with culture. The money wasn't great, but good if you lived with your parents, or with a group where everyone was pooling their money (like two or three families in one house). If you are used to living in what really is poverty in Mexico, then two or three families in one house in America is pretty damn luxurious. They outbid us, plain and simple. That won't change until the government, economy, and education in Mexico improve a lot.
posted
My mom is not lazy and she is not dumb either, you got that? She's got problems with english but thats because spanish is so diffrent from english. Now I didn't know if you meant general people with:
quote:The only problem that I see to opening the borders is that most people are too dumb or too lazy to learn a second language
or you meant only hispanics, I thought that this statement of yours would sort of explain why americans have more trouble learning spanish than mexicans have learning english. Besides the language barrier, at least here in california, most people are ignorant enough to say that english is the official language, while in reality, its spanish. Says who? The treaty of Guadalupe.(ok, this was totally off topic) however; I just hate it when people don;t know the laws and history of the place they live in.
posted
Been meaning to apologize for implying that you weren't American in my post, AoD. Was rereading my post and it looks like i am doing so. Please believe that I didn't mean to do so and that I apologize for the (usual) sloppy writing.
Posts: 13123 | Registered: Feb 2002
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