quote: Human rights abuses in Iraq are now as bad as they were under Saddam Hussein and are even in danger of eclipsing his record, according to the country's first Prime Minister after the fall of Saddam's regime.
'People are doing the same as [in] Saddam's time and worse,' Ayad Allawi told The Observer. 'It is an appropriate comparison. People are remembering the days of Saddam. These were the precise reasons that we fought Saddam and now we are seeing the same things.'
In a damning and wide-ranging indictment of Iraq's escalating human rights catastrophe, Allawi accused fellow Shias in the government of being responsible for death squads and secret torture centres. The brutality of elements in the new security forces rivals that of Saddam's secret police, he said.
quote: In a chilling warning to the West over the danger of leaving behind a disintegrating Iraq, Allawi added: 'Iraq is the centrepiece of this region. If things go wrong, neither Europe nor the US will be safe.'
Given that we are there now in force, I'm not sure what more we can do to prevent these things. This seems to me to be something that really only Iraqis can resolve.
quote: He added that he now had so little faith in the rule of law that he had instructed his own bodyguards to fire on any police car that attempted to approach his headquarters without prior notice, following the implication of police units in many of the abuses.
Allawi saved his strongest condemnation for the Ministry of the Interior, whose personnel have been accused of being behind much of the abuse: 'The Ministry of the Interior is at the heart of the matter. I am not blaming the minister [Bayan Jabr] himself, but the rank and file are behind the secret dungeons and some of the executions that are taking place.'
Responding to the former prime minister's comments, Sir Menzies Campbell, the Lib Dem foreign affairs spokesman, said: 'It is inconceivable in the higher reaches of the command of the multinational forces that there was not an awareness of what is being done by some Iraqis to their own countrymen.
'The assertions by Mr Allawi simply underline the catastrophic failure to have a proper strategy in place for the post-war period in Iraq.'
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It's not that I'm in favour of the Iraq war, but I think I detect the slightest whiff of hyperbole, here.
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quote: He added that he now had so little faith in the rule of law that he had instructed his own bodyguards to fire on any police car that attempted to approach his headquarters without prior notice, following the implication of police units in many of the abuses.
This sounds to me like a Pot/Kettle phenomenon, here.
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Alawi is referring to torture and assassinations carried out at the behest of Iraqis such as Abdul Aziz Hakim, who recently got caught with his pants down by US forces' discovery of torture chambers within the Interior Ministry. He is also with near certainty behind most of the murders and maimings of liquor store owners and barbers, murders of newspaper publishers and columnists in favor of secular government, murders and rapes of women for not wearing the chadoor, and the murders of Iraqi women political leaders as well as foreign NonGovernmentalOrganization workers like Marla Ruzicka. Heck, he probably murdered his own brother to gain the title of Ayatollah, and to score propaganda/sympathy points as the "brother of a martyr".
As I said before, the type of sociopath who would car-bomb children gathered to receive gifts of toys.
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It is clear that he is trying to poise himself as a reformer in a Presidential race coming up, the 'Law and Order Candidate' gambit.
As far as the coalition forces responsibility for this, well there is nothing we can do in the short run, I have said it many times and am still correct in my assesment, an Iraqi with a gun turns into a Thug. It is the way they are and it is not the coalition's place to provide therapy for the entire population. Growth in economy, maturity in behavior, sense of nationalism will come over a entire generation. All we can do is secure our assets and act as a 'strange attractor' for the shape of the society to come.
Belive for truth this fact, people here welcome stops, searches and visits from coalition forces as opportunities to visit, speak their minds and express grievences and exchange gifts. They fear the IP, and ING forces when we are not there to babysit them.
quote:"If you go back to Saddam's Iraq, we see that Iraq was turned by Saddam to concentration camps on the ground and mass graves underground," he said.
Mr Allawi, he said, "cannot compare this situation with that situation".
quote: As far as the coalition forces responsibility for this, well there is nothing we can do in the short run, I have said it many times and am still correct in my assesment, an Iraqi with a gun turns into a Thug. It is the way they are and it is not the coalition's place to provide therapy for the entire population. Growth in economy, maturity in behavior, sense of nationalism will come over a entire generation. All we can do is secure our assets and act as a 'strange attractor' for the shape of the society to come.
While I am open to what you are saying, it honestly sounds like 'this + that + this (and then a miracale occurs) = democracy'.
I am not saying you are abslutely wrong. I hope like anything you are right, but there are a lot of people floating around who point to the thousands of years the 'Iraqis' have of being nothing but warring tribes. I think it's also worth noting that Iraq is extremely proximal to two Islamist countries that are very active in growing Islamism in all parts of the world.
In order for democracy to happen in Iraq, the clerics in Iraq must ultimately get behind the idea. In order for that to happen, they would have to embrace 'liberal' Islam--a brand of Islam that tolerates things that Islam forbids such as alcohol, liberal roles for women in society where they can choose their clothing, etc. I haven't heard of that happening. I've heard of lots of liquor stores being shut down because followers of one cleric or another have forcibly shut them down. I've heard of women being harrased/forced to wear the hijab/chador.
I don't know. I hope you are right.
quote: Belive for truth this fact, people here welcome stops, searches and visits from coalition forces as opportunities to visit, speak their minds and express grievences and exchange gifts. They fear the IP, and ING forces when we are not there to babysit them.
Given the article I started this thread with, I believe that they look forward to seeing you, where they know they have some kind of recourse if things go wrong, rather than 'IP'. I think this might be kind of a go with the lesser of two evils situation, though. I would imagine they would prefer to not be pestered at all. Posts: 13123 | Registered: Feb 2002
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quote:thousands of years the 'Iraqis' have of being nothing but warring tribes.
I don't know about this. I mean, Baghdad was one of the centers of light and learning in the world at a time when Europe was a dirty, ignorant pit of warring tribes.
Random idea I had that I've never had a chance to look into. Islamic countries are more backward now in part because their religious leaders were less obviously corrupt and bad (or perhaps merely less centralized) than Christian ones.
Posts: 10177 | Registered: Apr 2001
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quote: I don't know about this. I mean, Baghdad was one of the centers of light and learning in the world at a time when Europe was a dirty, ignorant pit of warring tribes.
Well, my unspoken but, I thought, implied point was that this continues up to the present day for them, unlike (with exceptions) for us.
Is it useful to compare us to them in this thread? I don't know that it is. My point isn't to imply that we are superior. My point is to describe why I think a democratic Iraq might not be possible.
quote: Random idea I had that I've never had a chance to look into. Islamic countries are more backward now in part because their religious leaders were less obviously corrupt and bad (or perhaps merely less centralized) than Christian ones.
Given that you would be dealing with material several hundreds of years old, good luck in making a definitive argument, though I think it would be fun to look into. Most people who post about Islam tend to be rabidly anti-Islam, rabidly pro-Islam, or rabidly anti-US imperialist attitudes. That is, they jump to the defence of Islam when ill is spoken of it because they think it is implied in the discussion that the US/Christians are better.
So, if you can find unbiased work, please let us know. I'd love to read it. Posts: 13123 | Registered: Feb 2002
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