posted
So I was looking through my textbook in Ancient Law, reading the chapter on women and the law. There were a few lines in particular that caught my attention. When I go back out to my car in a bit, I'll grab the text and quote them all word-for-word, but the first thing that caught my eye was that the author stated that women are not subject to the same strong sexual urges as men, which is why many laws in the past have placed blame solely on the woman in cases of adultery and such.
I was wondering what kinds of thoughts you guys had on this issue, especially considering some of the reactions to the prostitution thread. I don't know that I believe that women have any more control over their sexual urges than men do, but I think that it's been more acceptable in many cultures for men to indulge their urges than it has been for women, which could have led to the, "Oh, well, men just can't help themselves" attitude.
posted
Well you may be right, but mens brains are programed both insticually and enviromentally to spread our genes as far as possible during our life times.
I am not trying to excuse my sex, many of us (or at least I'd like to believe so) still learn to change our thinking and stay with one partner through our whole lives. And many of us are plenty happy in that kind of enviroment. Posts: 1941 | Registered: Dec 2005
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posted
I think there are differences in the way men and women experience attraction. Some of these differences are probably biological, some social, and some psychological. I think it's hard for anyone to talk about what urges the opposite sex feels, so it's hard to tell specifically which of these differences is influenced more by biology and which by culture or psychology.
In my experience, however, I'd agree that most women don't seem to have the same degree of physical imperative toward sex as men do. I think evidence of this would be studies that show many women do not regularly experience orgasm even when having sex regularly. I don't think there are any men* who have sex without orgasm being the ultimate result (if not also the primary motivation.) My 2 cents, FWIW.
*any men meaning a sampling large enough for such a situation to be anything less than a pathology.
Posts: 6394 | Registered: Dec 1999
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posted
I don't know about that Karl, I tend to be very empathic towards the desires of my partner (or at least I was with my ex).
But certain studys do point towards a more outward show of such emotions in men. Though the same were present in women, the study showed that they did not show as much of an outward expresion of these emotions.
Posts: 1941 | Registered: Dec 2005
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posted
I could be mistaken, but I thought I recently read a study that said the biological differences between men and women are surprisingly few and that most of those differences are caused by society.
It's not a biological issue so much as a sociological one.
Posts: 866 | Registered: Aug 2005
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posted
I may have more info on this topic by Fri. Thats when I attend my Human Sexuallity (Psychology) course.
Posts: 1941 | Registered: Dec 2005
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quote:Originally posted by Advent 115: I don't know about that Karl, I tend to be very empathic towards the desires of my partner (or at least I was with my ex).
But certain studys do point towards a more outward show of such emotions in men. Though the same were present in women, the study showed that they did not show as much of an outward expresion of these emotions.
I'm not sure exactly what emotions you're talking about in the second paragraph. However, what I was talking about had nothing to do with a man's desire to bring his partner pleasure (or lack of it). I'm saying only that men in general (so general that the exception is probably a vanishingly small minority) have sex expecting and getting orgasm (except in cases of pathology, like impotence) and I'm not at all sure the same is true of women. I've heard countless stories of women who've never had an orgasm, yet have had regular sex. Stories, fiction and non, frequently deal with women who are left unsatisfied (meaning not having acheived orgasm). It's almost a cliche in some circles.
Posts: 6394 | Registered: Dec 1999
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posted
At the same time, there is also a glorification of men who DO give women orgasms. I'm not saying that's a bad thing, though.
But I have heard that the number of women who report experiencing orgasm has a lot to do with the attitude of the society towards sex. As in, in cultures that are more open, women experience orgasm a lot more often.
quote:I could be mistaken, but I thought I recently read a study that said the biological differences between men and women are surprisingly few and that most of those differences are caused by society.
It's not a biological issue so much as a sociological one.
I seem to remember reading something similar, but I could also be mistaken.
Regardless of where the "men are hornier" profile originated, it's still ridiculous to claim that women are more responsible for adultery than men are. That's like claiming that it's the woman's responsibility to use contraceptives, 'cause, you know, it's HER uterus.
Posts: 4313 | Registered: Sep 2004
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quote:As in, in cultures that are more open, women experience orgasm a lot more often.
That's interesting - so we should be seeing a huge surge in orgasmic women in the U.S., given the direction of our sexual attitudes.
Posts: 4313 | Registered: Sep 2004
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posted
True pH, but I have a question for you. You don't have to anwser.
Have you ever experienced orgasm with your partner? And if so then why do you feel that you may be a minority?
Posts: 1941 | Registered: Dec 2005
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posted
I'm not so sure ero, after all we may flaunt our sexuallity more openly here in the states, but that does not mean that a majority of us are willing to change our methods.
Try to remember that the goal here in the states to glorification of the female body, but geared towards male plessure. Not the other way around.
Posts: 1941 | Registered: Dec 2005
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quote:In my experience, however, I'd agree that most women don't seem to have the same degree of physical imperative toward sex as men do. I think evidence of this would be studies that show many women do not regularly experience orgasm even when having sex regularly. I don't think there are any men* who have sex without orgasm being the ultimate result (if not also the primary motivation.)
The first sentence may be true, but your second sentence doesn't prove it. Women are trickier, they take a bit more effort and a bit more knowledge to "finish". For men it's almost a given - it'd take some effort for a man to have sex without an orgasm, whereas it takes effort for a woman to achieve it. That doesn't mean the women have any less desire.
Imagine, as a man, regularly having a physical desire to have sex, but when you actually had sex it was not fulfilled (i.e. you didn't reach orgasm), and yet you continue to have this urge to have sex. What would you do? Would you stop having sex and just try to "turn off" your desire? Would you consider it a flaw in yourself? Would you make your partner try harder? Would you give up and just enjoy the closeness that comes from intimacy? Different women respond to the problem in different ways.
I'll admit many women don't seem to have the same constant drive men do; whether because they've given up and forced themselves to ignore it, or because it's biological, or because they just wear themselves out and have no energy for it, I don't know. But I will give one example: I think because it takes no effort for a man to finish but takes more work for a woman, my hubby and I view sex differently. He considers it a way to relax at the end of the day. I consider it like someone asked me to run a mile to the ice cream parlor. Probably worth the reward if I'd do it, but when I'm exhausted, it seems to require too much energy to get there.
Posts: 1522 | Registered: Nov 2005
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quote:And if so then why do you feel that you may be a minority?
<warning: explicit>
There are a ton of varying statistics on this, but there is a small (but surprisingly large) percentage of women who are physically incapable of having orgasms, and an even larger percentage who can only experience orgasm either vaginally or clitorally, but not the other.
The same studies also point out that women tend to be much more psychologically involved in orgasms - if sexual conditions aren't ideal, it doesn't matter if the physiological requirements are being met, orgasm just won't happen. This occurs in men, too, but supposedly to a much smaller extent.
At least, that's what these periodically surfacing studies keep claiming. Whether that's all true or not is certainly debateable. But from personal anecdote alone, I can tell you that roughly 1/3 of the girls I've talked to about sex in an intimate fashion have either never had an orgasm or are unsure if they've ever had one (read: they haven't). Guys, on the other hand...they're batting 1000.
Posts: 4313 | Registered: Sep 2004
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quote:Originally posted by Advent 115: True pH, but I have a question for you. You don't have to anwser.
Have you ever experienced orgasm with your partner? And if so then why do you feel that you may be a minority?
Some more pertinent (though no less intrusive) questions for women might be, "Do you regularly experience orgasm with your partner?" and "Do you expect orgasm from sex?" and "Do you enjoy non-orgasmic sex?"
I'd hazard a guess that nearly 100 percent of men would answer "yes" to the first two questions, and an only slightly smaller number would answer "what's that?" to the last one. I'd also guess that the answers from women would be remarkably more varied.
Posts: 6394 | Registered: Dec 1999
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posted
hahahah... sorry I just thought was a funny,b ut truthful example.
But yes it is true that it is far more easily accomplished by men than it is for women. This however does not mean that a majority of men simply find it as a way to relax.
In fact their are actually exercies that both men and women can perform to strengthen the genitals so that more pleasure is attained by both.
Posts: 1941 | Registered: Dec 2005
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quote:Try to remember that the goal here in the states to glorification of the female body, but geared towards male plessure. Not the other way around.
While I think this used to be true, I think we've rapidly begun to change direction. It is becoming increasingly okay for women to explore their sexuality, and to not be ashamed of enjoying sex.
Even magazines like Maxim, which are geared entirely toward pampering the chauvinist male in us all, regularly feature anecdotes and articles on women who enjoy sex, their methodology, and how to help men make their sex better. The motivation is different - "get better at sex so the girls all want to do you" - but we're acknowledging that women have orgasms, and enjoy them.
quote:I think because it takes no effort for a man to finish but takes more work for a woman, my hubby and I view sex differently. He considers it a way to relax at the end of the day. I consider it like someone asked me to run a mile to the ice cream parlor. Probably worth the reward if I'd do it, but when I'm exhausted, it seems to require too much energy to get there.
quote:Different women respond to the problem in different ways.
posted
Without going into detail, Advent, I would like to say that in my experience you are dead wrong about being in a minority.
As I am at work, and because of the fact that this is a family forum, I am not going to answer any personal questions you may have for me at this time.
Posts: 7954 | Registered: Mar 2004
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quote:This however does not mean that a majority of men simply find it as a way to relax.
ALSO true. Those of us males who actually give a damn about whether sex is an enjoyable activity for our partners find that there's an ENORMOUS amount of performance pressure. In that sense, it's an exercise for the man, too.
Posts: 4313 | Registered: Sep 2004
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quote:The first sentence may be true, but your second sentence doesn't prove it. Women are trickier, they take a bit more effort and a bit more knowledge to "finish". For men it's almost a given - it'd take some effort for a man to have sex without an orgasm, whereas it takes effort for a woman to achieve it. That doesn't mean the women have any less desire.
I never claimed to prove it. I still think it is evidence of my point, though.
Posts: 6394 | Registered: Dec 1999
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quote:If anyone wants the info on how to do Kegel exerscises just ask and I'll email them
Advent, you're making the mistake again of assuming that you possess exclusive knowledge of something that is actually fairly commonly known.
Posts: 16059 | Registered: Aug 2000
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posted
I'm not saying I do, I just figure that if more people preformed them then there would not be as many problems during intercourse.
Posts: 1941 | Registered: Dec 2005
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quote:Originally posted by erosomniac: But from personal anecdote alone, I can tell you that roughly 1/3 of the girls I've talked to about sex in an intimate fashion have either never had an orgasm or are unsure if they've ever had one (read: they haven't).
The idea that if a woman can't tell if she's had an orgasm that means she hasn't is incredibly untrue and hurtful. We don't have the obvious signs that you guys have, all we have to go on are our feelings. And orgasm feels weird, it doesn't really feel like anything else, and it doesn't always feel good, especially the first time. It's very easy to be confused.
And then someone asks if you've ever had an orgasm and you say you're not sure. They tell that means you haven't. So that feeling you had that you're not sure was an orgasm is automatically labeled as "not-orgasm" in your head and you keep on waiting for something more to happen, and wondering what's wrong with you when it doesn't.
Posts: 4655 | Registered: Jan 2002
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quote:This however does not mean that a majority of men simply find it as a way to relax.
Please don't misunderstand me, I didn't mean he looked at it just as a way to relax. I meant that no matter how tired he is at the end of the day, he's not too tired for that. Because it requires less work for him and he's guaranteed a "reward", and the reward relaxes him.
Whereas I, on the other hand, have to get mentally ready, as eros said, and that takes more effort when I'm tired than the actual physical act does. And, as has been pointed out, there's no guarantee of the "reward". (Although it becomes more likely with every passing year. )
Posts: 1522 | Registered: Nov 2005
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quote:The idea that if a woman can't tell if she's had an orgasm that means she hasn't is incredibly untrue and hurtful. We don't have the obvious signs that you guys have, all we have to go on are our feelings. And orgasm feels weird, it doesn't really feel like anything else, and it doesn't always feel good, especially the first time. It's very easy to be confused.
I'm sorry. I obviously do not know from a firsthand perspective what a woman's orgasm feels like - and my attitude towards it might be symptomatic of another serious problem in sexual attitudes amongst men. Again, sorry, I didn't mean to be dismissive or hurtful.
Posts: 4313 | Registered: Sep 2004
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posted
Don't worry about it eros, I think that she was just putting that out there so that we could better understand, not because she was angry at our comments.
Posts: 1941 | Registered: Dec 2005
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posted
Regardless of sexual desire, I do NOT believe that the adultery laws were structured because of different perceptions of desire.
I'm not sure of the real reasons:
1. Because of competition to be the father, and a woman can only get pregnant every nine months? 2. Because women were property and therefore granted less autonomy over their actions? 3. Because women had less power and were therefor easier to punish?
Maybe it is as simple as men made the rules, so they structured the law so they could do whatever they wanted and the women, who were generally more vulnerable, paid the consequences.
Even better, that way when they did do something crappy like commit adultery, they could say that the devil in the form of the woman made them do it. A little bit of "I'll hurt you for making me want you."
Posts: 26077 | Registered: Mar 2000
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posted
You should read some of the ancient laws of Chin (what is now China) were if either member commited adultry they would be beheaded in the local market.
Posts: 1941 | Registered: Dec 2005
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posted
I'm with katharina on this one, especially regarding the second point.
Did you know that in South Carolina (at least, I'm 90% certain it was South Carolina) it is impossible for a man to rape his wife? That's right. It doesn't matter what he does; it's not rape.
Until recently I believe six other states had similar laws.
Posts: 866 | Registered: Aug 2005
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posted
Here's the exact quote, which was actually referring to laws governing rape:
quote:It is not easy to see the reason why the laws should have been worded so as to seem to penalise the woman when both man and woman were guilty except in terms, previously mentioned, of an imperious sex urge which propels men with a force quite different from anything experienced by women.
Emphasis mine.
-pH
Edit: I speel rael gud.
Posts: 9057 | Registered: Nov 2000
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posted
As I said in my first post, it's a passage from my Ancient Law text that caught my eye as I was flipping through the chapter concerning women and the law. It's Ancient Laws and Modern Problems by John Sassoon.
posted
Without seeing the quote in context, I can't tell if they're talking about an "imperious sex urge" that arises biologically, psychologically, sociologically or some combination of the three.
If the opinion was formulated based on sociological factors, I'd have to agree that there IS an imperious sex urge experienced by men that is not, generally speaking, shared by women. The disparity has already been covered, partly, by this thread.
Posts: 4313 | Registered: Sep 2004
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posted
Practice can, in fact, ensure that both of you are hitting close to 1000. I'll vouch for that. Posts: 5957 | Registered: Oct 2001
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quote:If the ancient laws were in fact recognising the existence of such a force, then a man could not be held wholly responsible for the consequences of an imbalance in nature; and the imbalance of nature precedes the imbalance in the law.
posted
We are speculating as to why the laws may have been structured so the woman bore the brunt of the consequences. One of the theories is that women have less of a sex drive, and that contention is being debated. Other theories include the general powerlessness of women made them an easy target, and that since women once impregnated were procreationally occupied for nine months, their sexual behavior was seen as having more consequences and abberations were punished more severely.
Posts: 26077 | Registered: Mar 2000
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posted
Its good to see that there are others like me and erosomniac who actually try to make it pleasurable on both sides. Posts: 1941 | Registered: Dec 2005
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quote:Originally posted by Advent 115: Its good to see that there are others like me and erosomniac who actually try to make it pleasurable on both sides.
Um, where do you get the idea that you're basically the only ones that care?
Posts: 1256 | Registered: May 2005
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quote: In fact their are actually exercies that both men and women can perform to strengthen the genitals so that more pleasure is attained by both.
I wish I could find a link to that little cartoon in Johnny Dangerously called 'Your Testes and You.' Posts: 13123 | Registered: Feb 2002
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posted
I don't know, its just after hanging with my real world friends it starts to feel that way. But I certainly would be glad that I'm wrong on such a point.
Posts: 1941 | Registered: Dec 2005
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