posted
I realize that the issue of racial tension has been brought up numerous times here, but because of certain experiences I have had and people I've met, it's an issue that affects me on a personal level. I came across a White Nationalist website today (Stormfront.org)When reading the "Opposing Views" section, I came across this disturbing article. While my family does not believe in White Supremacy, a few of them do tend to have racist views, especially towards blacks (the idea that 99% of black people are worthless human beings, an idea that is obviously ludicrous).
To sum up my point to this post, I'm curious to know how others here may view racial issues as far as what they have actually experienced. Does anyone else here feel this concerned that the WN movement seems to be gaining some momentum, or is it just my imagination?
posted
I don't think they are gaining strength at all. With the notable exception of some very old relatives, I don't know a single person I care to associate with who holds those views.
In my personal experience I have met as many racist black people as I have white ones, so it is an issue that still plagues us all. However, fewer and fewer people as a whole seem to believe in such things.
Posts: 15082 | Registered: Jul 2001
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Pennsylvania is full of these little dying coal towns with mostly people on the dole in one way or another. This particular town is predominately Italian, which I find personally embarrasing but also not surprising.
I note, Kelly, that you haven't actually posted what your views are. It makes a little tough to respond, but if you want my view, this little town is going to make a laughing stock of itself and probably go bankrupt and dry up and blow away before too long.
This law will only serve to hasten that day.
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I'm not afraid that the basic concept of white supremacy is growing more popular. I think that it was never as unpopular as it seemed (which is a natural - I think a country has to act out its moral aspirations before they own them). I also think that the unpopularity decreases almost every year.
But I think there's been a resurgence in outspokenness, based on new media outlets such as the web, that has made such views far more visible.
My concern is that a critical mass of mutual support might start to increase popularity of such views, but I don't think it's happened yet.
Posts: 26071 | Registered: Oct 2003
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quote:But I think there's been a resurgence in outspokenness, based on new media outlets such as the web, that has made such views far more visible.
That's what I think is going on here. The web's a level platform; anyone can scream what they want. It's probably fair to say that there are far, far more hate websites out there than anti-hate ones (whatever those might would look like).
But while I doubt the WN movement is gaining strength, I do think that my generation is cares less for "political correctness" than my parents' does, and it stands out because it is contrary to the opinions of society at large.
--j_k, who edited this post a number of times for formatting, grammar and the like.
[ July 19, 2006, 12:46 AM: Message edited by: James Tiberius Kirk ]
Posts: 3617 | Registered: Dec 2001
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posted
James and Dagonee, I agree with you completely. While the WN movement probably hasn’t gained much strength, the thing that worries me the most it its potentional, especially with future generations.
Posts: 104 | Registered: Jul 2006
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posted
WN on the web is has the potential to reach young people in ways that it couldn't have, say, 20 years ago -- but everything else has the potential to reach them, too. A person who spends significant time online is going to be exposed to opinions (and facts) that fly in the face of the views expressed at Stormfront.
I believe the article mentioned that by 2050 the US will be about 50% minorities, 50% white. Unless the US becomes hyperxenophobic between now and then, I think the WN movement will become weaker, because people will not equate American heritage with any specific ethnicity.
I have to admit though, that statistic could potentially scare people over to their side.
posted
In a lot of places where racism is prevelant, I suspect that a lack of exposure to other ideas and people is a significant cause. Since the internet is so far reaching, it can provide this exposure much more easily than any previous media. I'd be willing to bet that the internet will lower the amount of racism in society much more than these hate sites can evr increase it.
posted
The last conversation I had about race was with a guy at work who grew up deep in Detroit, well, deep is an odd way to phrase it, but I mean he grew up in the really black part of Detroit, rather than the suburbs at all.
He said his family figured all white people casually referred to black people by the N word when they were at home, and were only polite in public, and that many black families referred to white people by other slurs, though his mother personally would smack him if he used them.
Personally I found that shocking, as I've never seriously heard any friends or family (with the exception of my Uncle) refer to a black person by the N word. I don't know where he got the idea, I assumed it was an insular black Detroit culture thing.
I think whatever effect the net has on the youth of today will be countered by the real life influences around the youth in question. My friends, and my parents were always more influential than websites I read.
Posts: 21898 | Registered: Nov 2004
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posted
A Nazi leader was recently shocked to find decent, God-fearing Christian Nazis infiltrated by those evil Satan-worshiping Nazis.
My brother has been amused lately by the recent schism in the National Socialist Movement (a neo-Nazi racist hate group). Turns out, you have your pro-Satan Nazis and your anti-Satan Nazis, and they just can't play nice with one another. Even Nazis have their standards.
quote: Roanoke landlord and neo-Nazi sympathizer William A. White has resigned from the National Socialist Movement, an organization that idolizes Adolf Hitler but is reportedly in turmoil over being associated with Satan.
White said Monday he stepped down as spokesman for the group and leader of its Roanoke unit over the weekend following revelations that some NSM members are involved with a group called the Joy of Satan.
According to White and others, the satanic group engages in inappropriate sexual discussions with children through its Teens for Satan e-mail group.
posted
I've almost never, in my whole life, encountered a discussion of race which I found to be basically intelligible; let alone moving, inspiring, truthfull, honest, reflective, etc.
The vast vast majority of the crap that people spew out at each other over it is brain flotsom, about as abundant as other human waste, and just as useful. I just LOOVE to tune in my comedy central and hear Carlos Mencia talking about how white people are DIFFERENT from black people. Its so uplifting and original for a stand-up comic to adress something like THAT!
Having said that, I will say that my own views and/or opinions on it are unworthy of mention; and I think that is the case for 99 percent of the people who enthusiastically engage in race discussion all the time. But continue, I don't have to pay attention to this thread, I just wanted to troll it up with my little kermudge. Sorry.
Posts: 9912 | Registered: Nov 2005
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posted
I think it's clear that racist groups are composed of people on the margins of society, who can't succeed, for one reason or another, and who wish they had someone or something to blame it on. Hatred is the drug to which these people become addicted.
I do think the free exchange of information on the internet is helping. Lies become harder to sustain when there is a free flow of ideas and knowledge. Also, the higher exposure to heated invective people often find online just fast-forwards the process by which people mature and realize that their tempers are not helping anything, that the voice of reason is a voice of gentleness and affectionate regard. We see it happen on hatrack over and over again. I do believe the internet represents the advancement of society to a new higher level. <laughs> It may be hard to see amid the fluff and furor, but I do believe it's there to be seen. Posts: 6246 | Registered: Aug 2004
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posted
Racial hatred is based in ignorance in my experience (which is, for the record, growing up in the deeeeeep south).
Fathers tell their sons from early on, "****ers are lazy, stupid, sons of bitches who'll rob you blind the minute you turn your back!" The sons, being young and not knowing that it's alright to question the beliefs of their fathers, think that that's the way of the world. Surround them in a school where all of their friends believe the same things (having heard it from their fathers), and it's got some legs.
At least until they grow up enough to realize that no group of people can effectively be described by any one attribute, be it skin color, gender, or nationality. But it takes personal growth and knowledge to overcome poor upbringing.
Posts: 5462 | Registered: Apr 2005
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posted
Also, they can't hide who they are, online. They are all about hatred. That comes through loud and clear. There is no positive in their message. There is no morality in it, and no science. They are simply mistaken, all around, and sadly, pathetically so. It's so obvious. I don't believe they will be able to sustain themselves very much farther into the future.
Posts: 6246 | Registered: Aug 2004
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I could agree, but I'd have to also acknowledge willful ignorance on the part of many people. I believe some religious belief is based on ignorance, too, but that doesn't stop thousands of people from believing it even with de facto evidence that millions of people believe completely contrary things. The vast majority of these types of people do not consider all the views and then decide on the best one given the evidence at hand. The cling to these beliefs as to a life preserver, often lashing out violently at anyone who would so much as suggest there is a great big boat within arms reach right behind them, if they'd only turn around and see.
I do think that racial hatred is on the decline in America. However, I'm not so convinced about the underlying kernels of racism that can flare up into hatred. I think that for many good old fashion racism is just too inconvenient, so it lays dormant so long as it isn't percieved as necessary. In other words, a lot of people won't go out of their way to discriminate against a minority, but if they perceive their personal safety, job security, or property values to be in jeopardy those old embers will flare right up again. I suspect that this is a phenomenon is somewhat genetically ingrained in the primitive parts of our brain, so racism will continue to be a lurking threat unless we continually reinforce the more rational parts of our brain through education and through removing conditions that exacerbate racial tension, such as poverty and other forms of inequality.
Posts: 6394 | Registered: Dec 1999
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posted
racial hatred is also based on over-generalization from initial limited experiences too. There was a study on this somewhen back in the 1970's. I'm pretty dim on the details at this point, but the bottom line was that many people's prejudices could be traced to a small number of negative experiences, and overgeneralization from there.
Posts: 22497 | Registered: Sep 2000
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posted
The most interesting conversation I had about race was with myself, another caucasian woman, an Asian woman, and two African-Amerian women. It was about both race and politics and it was really neat we could all sit down and talk about the issues without any rancor, just women talking about issues. We were sitting there watching out kids work out in gymnastics and talking about the presidential election.
Every one of us voted Republican. And the two African-American women were talking about their families who always voted Democrat. One of them said her mother was furious at her for voting for Bush, but her feelings were that the Democrats had never done anything constructive for her and that her mother was just going to sit in the projects taking the governments money and wait on the government to give her a better life. Where as she had gotten out of the projects with hard work and now owned her own home and provided for her daughter and lived a comfortable life. The other woman, who also had family still living in government housing, agreed with her. It was really interesting, because these two women regarded people who lived in the projects with contempt, calling them lazy and no-good.
I couldn't help but think that if the two white women had said such things, we would have been considered racist for it.
Posts: 14428 | Registered: Aug 2001
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posted
Racism is still very common, at least here in Texas, even among the educated middle class. Racist sentiments are almost always directed at Latinos and Arabs, and almost never at African-Americans. Generally, well assimilated Arabs and Latinos are perfectly accepted, but poorer Latinos in the U.S. and Arabs abroad are looked down upon, reminding me of the stockbroker in Monty Python who suggested taxing all foreigners living abroad.
To be clear, racist sentiments tend to be directed at cultures, rather than ethnic groups per se.
Posts: 1332 | Registered: Apr 2005
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posted
Is it still racism if it is directed at culture?
I don't approve cultures of inner-city gang violence, fundamentalist Mormon treatment of young women, or the culture of fundamentalist Islamic terrorism. I would go as far as to say that these cultures are inferior in many ways. I also think American culture has many problems. I fail to see how this makes me a racist.
In response to Islamic rules regarding women, several radical liberal European groups who once were very supportive of unique cultures have started to emphasis the values of their "Western culture" or values of the "Enlightenment" over other cultures. Are these groups in fact racist as well? I think we've become a bit too cavalier with our use of the term racism.
Posts: 1412 | Registered: Oct 2005
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posted
Statements such as "Fundamentalist Islam is wrong in its advocation of violence and its treatment" are not racist, statements such as "Muslims are all evil and terrorists" are racist, or xenophobic, or just stupid.
Posts: 1332 | Registered: Apr 2005
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posted
My point is, Muslims are not a race. They are a religion. Such a comment may be called bigotry, or xenophobia (if the statement that Muslims are all evil and terrorists causes intense fear in the person speaking) but racism?
Then again making the statement "Fundamentalist Islam is wrong in its advocation of violence and its treatment" could be considered bigotry and xenophobia as well.
Posts: 1412 | Registered: Oct 2005
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quote:Originally posted by KarlEd: I do think that racial hatred is on the decline in America. However, I'm not so convinced about the underlying kernels of racism that can flare up into hatred. I think that for many good old fashion racism is just too inconvenient, so it lays dormant so long as it isn't percieved as necessary. In other words, a lot of people won't go out of their way to discriminate against a minority, but if they perceive their personal safety, job security, or property values to be in jeopardy those old embers will flare right up again.
Excellent point, KarlEd.
As far as bigotry being on the decline, I think bigotry toward latinos and Muslims is very much on the upswing. Posts: 13680 | Registered: Mar 2002
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posted
Oh, that movement (for an all-white city) started right in my backyard. How lovely. *mutters under breath*
Posts: 21182 | Registered: Sep 2004
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posted
But how many of those new hate groups are offsplits between the Satanist and non-Satanist Nazi's?
I had a thought about prejudice the other day but it has fled me. It involved the difference between Pride and Love.
Posts: 11017 | Registered: Apr 2003
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posted
I'm sorry to bring this topic up again, but there are things that I need to express to anyone who has a clue how I feel.
I know there are some people here whose family members have very racist views, so maybe you can relate to my experiences. My brother and two of his friends are extremely racist. One of them is the type of person who would grate on anyone's nerves to no end, and he is the one who has my contempt. I heard the three of them talking tonight about Muslim extremists, saying how every member of the Muslim world deserves to die.
ANYONE who advocates the suffering of the innocent qualifies as sub-human, IMO.
And the way they think that every Muslim hates America and wants to kill anyone who isn't a Muslim just screams hypocrisy, because for people like the friend I said I despised, the killing of an innocent minority wouldn't faze them one bit, and apparently, neither would the killing of innocent Iraqi civilians by some U.S. soldiers.
Again I'm sorry for the rant, but this is why racism has such a personal effect on me. I hate my brother's friend for his racial views, his immaturity, his arrogance, and the way he has brain-washed my brother, and while I love my brother, I am very angry and resentful toward him for this and other issues as well.
That's just messed up. Anyone who advocates something like that has no idea which way is up, frankly. Luckily for us, these REALLY BIG misconceptions are less dangerous because we recognize them right away as stupid and ignorant, they aren't insipiant.
This is tangential, but I was in my apt complex pool the other day, and there were some white people in there who were drunk and drinking cups of tequila. I started doing my laps and this one drunken guy starts hassling some hispanic teens who were swimming in the pool. One of the kids turns to me and says: "hey is your friend drunk?"
I'm white, and I guess I am about the same age as these drunks were, but I wasn't talking to them, or looking at them, and I wasn't drunk. I said "I don't know them." The kid says "REALLY?" I say meekly "really, I don't know any of them." The kid looks at me agast: "you don't know ANY of them???"
I am getting a little confused by his and say, "I don't."
"So you aren't with them"
"NO"
"And you don't know anyone here?"
"NOOO"
"Is he drunk?"
"I DON'T KNOW HIM!"
I hate to think that this kid assumed I was with them because I was white and everybody else hanging out by the pool was either hispanic, asian, or Black, but that is the only thing I can think of. Not a huge racist thing, but a wierdly uncomfortable thing to realize that you are assumed to be "with" people of your race, or at least know them.
Posts: 9912 | Registered: Nov 2005
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posted
I just read this article. I found it to be the most appalling piece of yellow journalism I've ever read.
Obviously Stormfront and Joe Turner and his ilk are racists. That's not the issue. The issue is that Juan Santos, who wrote this article, claims, without the slightest bit of supporting evidence, that the law passed in Hazelton is "a copycat measure" of something attempted by Turner.
Where is the evidence of any connection whatsoever between Turner and Hazelton? This smells like the lame anti-vegetarian arguments that point out that Hitler was a vegetarian.
Santos is cute. He quotes an opponent of the Hazelton law as saying that its approval would make Hazelton a "Nazi city", and then reports the crowd shouting "Yes!" The implication is that the crowd is happy with the idea of being a "Nazi city". But if you read it carefully, they were saying "Yes!" about deporting the children of illegal immigrants. With their families, presumably. The dishonesty is palpable.
This has nothing to do with the question of whether illegal immigration is right or wrong. It has nothing to do with the question of whether laws against aiding illegal immigrants or requiring discrimination against illegal immigrants are right or wrong. It has to do with the fact that Juan Santos is against the law, and has decided to write a vicious piece of propaganda, intended to tar Hazelton PA with the acts of some idiot racist out in California.
Clearly, he's unwilling to address the law on its merits. Looking through the entire article, it is almost exclusively about Turner and his racist agenda.
Does Barletta, the mayor of Hazelton, use terms like "Third World Cesspools"? No. Ah, but he does talk about the quality of life in Hazelton. And Santos takes that and writes: "That's the same complaint Joe Turner and overt white nationalist groups raise when they say US cities are turning into 'Third World Cesspools.'"
See? There's no need to actually establish that Barletta is a white nationalist. No, it's enough to say that what he did say is the equivalent.
It's argument by intimidation. A classic ad hominem argument by someone who is apparently unable to address the actual issue.
Santos writes: "Barletta sites crime and economic stressors as among the principal reasons for targeting the brown population of the city". But that's a crock. Barletta says nothing whatsoever about "brown populations". And it's simply vile that Santos is choosing to equate people of color who are legitimate citizens of the US and illegals, who have chosen to ignore the laws of this country for their own financial gain.
I hope Barletta and the city of Hazelton sue Juan Santos for libel.
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