posted
OSC once said that The Stand, by Stephen King, started out as a work of science fiction, but lost that distinction when the Finger of God blocked the missile.
I'm not sure if there's a thread about this already, but here it goes.
Children ot the Mind was by all means a science fiction novel, yet the character of Malu offers a contradiction, by OSC's standards. Malu can sense all of Jane's movements, and by his definition, Jane is a god. I'm not questioning the premise of the novel, I'm just wondering whether, by OSC's standards, CotM is a work of science fiction or fantasy.
P.S. This is my first thread, so go easy on me. Posts: 1594 | Registered: Apr 2006
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quote:Malu can sense all of Jane's movements, and by his definition, Jane is a god. I'm not questioning the premise of the novel, I'm just wondering whether, by OSC's standards, CotM is a work of science fiction or fantasy.
She is a god to Malu. Not to the reader. The reader understands that Jane is a computer program with an aiua attached, not a god.
Posts: 14554 | Registered: Dec 1999
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posted
OSC's given his distinction: fantasy has trees, and SF has rivets. By this definition, it's the fathertrees that make it fantasy . . . anyway, we got spaceships and FTL and computers; SF, by that definition.
By my definition, not fantasy because the unusual things are supposed to be derived from natural principles and science.
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posted
That still prompts the question of "How can Malu sense her without a direct connection?" Trying to stretch auia/philotic theory to fit it is tenuous at best. Whether or not Jane is divine, she can be sensed by a holy man with no prior connection to the story.
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posted
Have to admit, Malu was a bit of an outlier to me when I read him. Seemed like kind of a Tom Bombadil intervention character (cameo by the author), or perhaps an "enough already, lets get this show on the road" character.
In any case, he is cool, and I didnt read him as godly, but rather more a holy man or unexplained origin character. The Hive Queen has some similar qualities, just not as extensive, and we had her explanation.
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posted
When I first read the part about Malu, I thought he was extremely cool. At the time I figured there must be a philotic property that radiates information without a direct link and some super sensitive people had the power to read it (or use that property to make their own link). Which still falls into the realm of pure SF, in my opinion.
Posts: 90 | Registered: Apr 2006
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posted
First, we don't know how Malu came about his information regarding Jane. Yes, when he conveys that information to New!Peter and Wang-mu, he frames it in a somewhat mystical framework, but it is possible that Jane was searching the net for potential allies and found Malu, and spoke with him. We can take Malu's description as metaphorical truth, but not as an absolute reflection of reality. Again, I'm referring to how Malu came about his knowledge. Just because he speaks in a mystical narrative, doesn't mean he didn't come by the knowledge in a perfectly normal fashion.
Also, as others have already pointed out, Malu refers to Jane as a God, but that is within the framework of his own personal frame of reference. Speaking of Jane as 'god' could simply have been Malu's way of referring to Jane as true 'life'. Again, Malu's mystical frame of reference colors everything he says.
Further, again as others have pointed out, just because Malu refers to Jane as 'god' doesn't make her a god. Notice that the people of Path also have a unique idea of god. I believe since they thought Han Fei-tsu was the best of Path, that in his death he would be made a 'god' of Path. Clearly they have a very different idea of 'god' than the standard Christian model. I believe this is also true of Malu, he models Jane after a 'god' in the context the he in his beliefs understands gods.
So, two things color Malu's statements, first is that he relates the information in a mystical narrative, and second, his use of the term 'god' is colored by his own frame of reference.
All that said, I will add that Malu does seem to have a very hightened spiritual sense, he seems in close contact with the abstract aspects of life. So, even if he came by his knowledge of Jane through normal methods, he seems to be connected to her on an intuitive level, just as he is connect to all of life on an intuitive level.
So, in a sense, I am saying the we should not give to much credence to Malu's intuitive senses, but at the same time, we should not deny them either.
quote:Originally posted by Numinor West: When I first read the part about Malu, I thought he was extremely cool. At the time I figured there must be a philotic property that radiates information without a direct link and some super sensitive people had the power to read it (or use that property to make their own link). Which still falls into the realm of pure SF, in my opinion.
I thought of this too, but it doesn't really work out for me, as humans are unable to communicate directly using philotes.
Blue Wizard, you make some valid points, but it still stands that Malu can see Jane's actions in real-time, whereas Peter can not. Even if prior contact was established between Jane and Malu, his supernatural sense is unexplained.
Posts: 1594 | Registered: Apr 2006
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quote:Even if prior contact was established between Jane and Malu, his supernatural sense is unexplained.
It'd be wrong to assume the link is supernatural. In this universe the philotic threads are known of, but not well known about. If ansibles can "vibrate" some thread for faster than light connection, it makes sense to me that Jane could reach out to Malu (or visa versa) and share information doing something similar.
I don't think it's a big deal to call Jane a god(dess). At the very least I'd feel safe in comparing her level of power/observational abilitiy to any member of the Greek Pantheon. I'd probably say the same thing about the Bugger queen. After all, these are aiuas that are vastly more powerful than any human's
After rereading that, it seems like it could cause some problems for theists. I'm basically using "god" here to mean any super-powerful, super-aware being. By human standards, of course. I'd like to distinguish between God and god(s), if that helps.
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quote:If ansibles can "vibrate" some thread for faster than light connection, it makes sense to me that Jane could reach out to Malu (or visa versa) and share information doing something similar.
At that point in the novel, Jane is dying. She is stripped down to her auia self, and it would be impossible for her to communicate even if she had the capacity or mental alertness to do so. Furthermore, if Malu lived in seclusion as is proposed in the novel, and spoke only the ancient language, there is no way that Jane could have made contact or, once that contact was established, effectively communicate with him through human methods.
Therefore, their connection must be completely due to Malu. It is somewhat possible that he had a better understanding of the philotic web than others, but how he aquired that knowledge is something I'd like to know. And to stretch that Malu can converse philotically, like no other human, is stretching it a little far.
I still consider it a work of science fiction. This just adds a new perspective to this.
Posts: 1594 | Registered: Apr 2006
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quote:And to stretch that Malu can converse philotically, like no other human, is stretching it a little far.
We are only told about Malu. I would expect that once OSC goes into greater detail of the mechanics of what Malu accomplished (in a future novel?), we will discover it is more common than we ever realized.
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posted
I doubt Malu will be in any further novels. He is, as said earlier, a "Tom Bombadil" in that he is an enigma, a person we don't know anything about except for his direct interactions with the main characters. For me, it's better that way. I like some mystery in novels. Not everything in life needs to be explained.
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posted
We already know that humans are possibly aware of, or can feel at the subconscious level, the philotic links between other humans. It wouldn't much of a stretch to assume that a few humans may be capable of conscious awareness of the philotic web. And I don't think it has anything to do with supernatural or mystical abilities. The fact that the Queen can "see" Jane means that it is an evolved ability.
Posts: 1256 | Registered: May 2005
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posted
please do forgive me if i repeat anything that has already been said:
at this point in the story much of everything is in question. the ways of the universe and so on. just think how vast 100 established worlds really is. think of just one planet and how people strive to make a change in the way we think and live every single day. is it so far fetched that at least one person, on one of a hundered worlds, could be more in tune with the universe? there are monks, in this world of ours, that can dry a soaked towell with their only their body heat in the cold of winter.
malu could simply know every extention of his mind and body in the way a hive queen knows her workers. a more concious way of how ender controlled the peter/val bodies.
perhaps there is a small fantasy side to malu's character. only being that he understands the philotic connection not by ways of science but by way of reaching toward heavens.
on a personal note, i remember feeling a little sad for malu. for a man as powerful and brilliant as malu, it didnt sit well with me that he thought jane was a god.
also, it brought to mind that there could be someone in the universe like malu that is also of illintent. >
i have more to say.. but i'm moving into a new house and need to stop being lazy.. thanks for reading Posts: 57 | Registered: Feb 2006
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posted
I'm not debating that, possibly, Malu's abilities can be explained scientifically. However, as the phenomenon remains unexplained, by the definition stated beforehand, does that disqualify CotM as sci-fi? And if it is found that it is disqualified, and if, in a later novel, it is explained scientifically, would that change CotM back into SF? That was my original question.
Posts: 1594 | Registered: Apr 2006
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posted
Dang it, now I'm going to have to go and reread the book. Though I would not agree with the assertion that humans aren't connected by philotes. They may not communicate directly through them, but the whole phenomenon of young Peter and Val being generated suggests direct connection, similar to what goes on in the Homecoming series. I don't think the strings and the philotes work in the exact same ways. But it would take more rereading than I can get away with in the near future to expound on that.
Posts: 11017 | Registered: Apr 2003
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posted
I think a phenomenon falls into the fantasy category when its function is attributed to magic or any non-scientific cause the author dreams up. Does OSC do that with Malu?
The most you can say about Malu is that his particular power is not explained fully. Obviously, Toad is seeking answer from OSC himself, and I agree it would be nice to get the answer from the source.
However, until then, I'll go with my initial reaction (at the time I first read it) and stick with my personal belief that Malu does not make CotM a work of fantasy.
Posts: 90 | Registered: Apr 2006
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posted
Quoting someone else who was in turn quoting OSC -
OSC's given his distinction: fantasy has trees, and SF has rivets.
Within limits, I think what is implied here is that if something takes place in a magical enchanted world; it's fantasy. But if it takes place in a future 'normal' world that is filled with futuristic 'nuts & bolts'; it is science fiction. Taking that further, science fiction is about characters interacting with the nuts and bolts.
I don't really consider the Ender or the Shadow series to be science fiction in the literary sense. Just personal opinion though. These stories all take place at various times in the furture, and in the stories they simply use the technology of the day. The central point is that the technology is not the story, the people are the story. To put it another way, the story isn't about people interacting with technology, it's about people interacting with each other, and they also just happen to use the technology of the day.
I think in Lord of the Rings, the 'alive' trees in that story (is it the Ents?) are fantasy, because they are alive in a very human but somewhat cartoonish way. The living trees in the continuation of the Ender Series are naturally alive. They are alive in a real world sense, not in a cartoonish sense. I think that removes the fantasy element with regard to the Father Trees. There is a naturalness to them that doesn't involve magical enchantments. In a sense, the trees become rivets.
Now on to Malu; I'm a bit Harry Potter fan, and in our discussions, we desperately want to know what goes on off the printed page. How does business work in the wizard world? Do wizard, using intermediaries, trade good and services with the muggle world? Does Gringott's Bank make secret investments in the muggle world? How does Lucius Malfoy make his money? etc.... We know that there are logical and reasonable explanations for all these things, but JKR simply hasn't given them to us. So, the best we can do is speculate. If we speculate with clear reason and sound logic, it is possible to come up with a reasonable explanation of things which are not explained.
The same is true of Malu. When Peter and Wang-mu meet Malu, Jane still has sufficient ability to transport them at faster than light speed. Malu did not necessarily come by his knowledge of Jane in the very moment he spoke to Peter and Wang-mu. It seems very reasonable that he had prior knowledge of Jane. So the speculation regarding Jane's current condition and how that affects Malu's knowledge is irrelevant. He gained his knowledge before Jane reached her current state.
Without a doubt Malu has a strong intuitive sense, he may even have substantial psychic abilities that allow him either direct communication with Jane or at least, intuitive communcation with Jane. That's a given, but we are talking about 3,000 years in the future. Think how common and casual our use of the telephone is, and it has been around just over 100 years. Think how common our use of television is, and remember that TV first appeared commercially in the 1950's. Personal computer's didn't really appear until the 1980's, yet to what extent have they become mere appliances for us? Now expand TV, telephone, and computers 3,000 year into the future. They are going to be as common and casual as air. I think it is very likely that Malu has a 'desk' (computer) on his island and that he knows how to use it.
Others have said that Malu only speaks in the ancient language, but what is really happening is that we only hear him speak in the ancient language and those conversation have a specific context to them. It's entirely possible that he speaks Star Common or the more modern native languages of his planet.
It was suggested that Malu lives in seclusion, but he is obviously not in isolation. People on the main island are able to contact him. He has a gang of guys to row his boat for him. While speculation, he may even have 100 monks on his private island to help him with various things, or to relieve him of the tedium of daily life so he can concentrate on his mediation.
My point here is that you can't take what obviously happens in the books and assume that those incidences are giving you the complete and total picture. When Malu meets people he communicates in the ancient language, but that doesn't mean his is incapable of speaking on other languages. He lives on a holy island, and in seclusion, but seclusion doesn't mean isolation. People can communcate with him, he has other people living on the island with him.
What does all this add up to? That there is very likely an off-page backstory that explains Malu and how he came by his knowledge and how he communcates this Jane. Maybe somebody put Jane and Malu together. I have speculated it was Bean. Maybe Jane was searching for allies and discovered Malu and communcated with him through the very common and ubiquitous 'desk'.
Also consider that while certainly being a very spiritual and intuitive man, Malu is also 3,000 years more evolved than we are.
So to the central point of SF vs fantasy, I say the presents of Malu doesn't make this book fantasy, because it is very likely that there is an explanation for Malu that is consistent with spritual development, technilogical advances, and evolution. In otherwords, as far out as the explanation might be, in the end, it is not going to be 'magic'. Even the apparent magic that Jane performs is not fantasy magic, it has a reasonable explanation in the Ender World.
When ever confronted by an apparent inconsistency in my favorite books, rather that fret and worry that it isn't or can't be explained, or that it is a mistake, I start with the assumption that it is true, consistent, and valid, then try to understand how and why it is true, consistent, and valid. That involves a great deal of speculation, but speculation is what I do best. However, I do try to use speculation that is logically sound in the world I'm dealing with.
I think the presents of Malu is logically sound and consistent in the Ender World, even if we aren't priviledge to the details of that information.
posted
Steve, your points are very well stated. My question, again, is this : Does the lack of a scientific explanation for this phenomenon, by the definition originally stated by OSC in the paperback full version of Maps in a Mirror, change CotM into SF? Another question raised is that if, in a later novel, it is explained scientifically, would that change CotM back into SF, again by the same definitions?
I'll use the example of The Stand. If, in a sequel to The Stand, the Finger of God is found to be an apparatus created by aliens, with a fully logical and scientific explanation, can we look back on The Stand and relabel it SF?
I'm starting to really enjoy myself with this thread. And yes, I would like to hear OSC's take on this. Posts: 1594 | Registered: Apr 2006
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posted
Flaming Toad on a Stick Steve, your points are very well stated. My question, again, is this : Does the lack of a scientific explanation for this phenomenon, ..., change CotM into SF?
.... If, in a sequel to The Stand, the Finger of God is found to be an apparatus created by aliens, ..., can we look back on The Stand and relabel it SF?
Sorry, I know I tend to ramble on in impossibly long posts, I'll try to get right to the point.
In the context you seem to be using, I don't think the presents of Malu makes the story a 'fantasy', because as I said, even if we don't know it, there probably is a rational explanation that doesn't involve 'magic' or the 'finger of God'.
In the presences of off-page rational explanation, that would tend to put CofM in the Sci-Fi catagory.
As I said, I always start with the assumption that things are rational and consistent, then try to speculate on reasonable explanations for why that is true.
In the example of 'The Stand' which I confess I have not read, it would depend on the rest of the story. If the story is filled with 'magic' then it is fantasy.
Space travel, for example, can occur in a book without explanation as to the science of it without being considered 'magic'. However, if a spaceman waves a wand and french fries magically appear, then I think we are delving into the realm of fantasy.
In Star Trek, they have Replicators that 'magically' create the food they eat, but there is a reasonable scientific foundation for them, even if the science is only superficially explained. Not to imply that science couldn't evolve to the point where you could use some very small device to 'replicate' food, it's just that lacking a basic explanation for it, it would fall into the realm of fantasy.
If a space ship flies without explanation, we assume there is an explanation. If a carpet flies without explanation, I think we must assume it is magical fantasy.
In a sense, Janes ability to preform instantanious faster than lightspeed travel is scientific fantasy. There is no known science explanation for it; on-page or off. However, OSC does create a very believable real-world explanation of how this is done. As impossible as it is, it is established in a believable framework that keeps it out of the realm of pure fantasy, even though it is pure fantasy.
I guess part of what I'm saying is that you have to look at the overal story rather than a single event or person. If the overal story is founded in magic and enchantments, and completely unexplained events, then it is probably Fantasy. If the overal story has a degree of scientific believablity, no matter how farfetched, then it is probably Sci-Fi.
However, if you are a reader of the Harry Potter stories, then you know that genre is not absolute. These are fantasy, sci-fi, mystery, suspense, human interest, drama, and comedy all rolled into one.
One of the reasons why I say the Ender and the Shadow Series are not sci-fi, is because the technology is so mundane. It just exists as the day-to-day framework in which the characters interact.
If you went back to 1890 and wrote a story about enclosed vehicles traveling down millions of miles of available paved roadways at speed over 100mph, of instant communication, of instant access to the universe of available information, of full meals cooked from frozen to ready to eat in 6 minutes. It would have been science fiction. In our modern world, that is all boring and totally mundane stuff. We barely give it a second thought.
That is the sense that I get in the Ender World, that the available technology is just mundane and boring. Simply appliances available to all.
That doesn't mean that from a literary perspective, the Ender World would not be considered Sci-Fi. But from my personal perspective, it is simply the mundane world of the future; a mundane world filled with interesting people and events.
I guess in the final analysis, it's sometime difficult to absolutely classify a story. Sometimes the story is made up of such diverse elements that it falls into multiple catagories.
In the instance of "The Stand" which again I confess I have not read, you make it sound like a story reasonably founded in science that ends with the 'Finger of God' intervening. No offense, but that seems to be a story with an element of absurdity in it.
posted
The Stand was, in essence, a Horror/sci-fi story. It is often called Stephen King's most incredible work, and I tend to agree. If you're up to reading really, really, really long books, I would highly reccomend it.
Steve, most good science fiction, and fantasy for that matter, is like that. They deal with how people, (and aliens) interact, taking most science and magic for granted. Fiction based completely on science and not on character is not very good fiction, IMHO. Many things predicted in science fiction novels of the past have come true (Jules Verne, etc.). Does that mean that Those works are no longer science fiction? I'm really not sure how to answer that.
quote: In the context you seem to be using, I don't think the presents of Malu makes the story a 'fantasy', because as I said, even if we don't know it, there probably is a rational explanation that doesn't involve 'magic' or the 'finger of God'.
In the presences of off-page rational explanation, that would tend to put CofM in the Sci-Fi catagory.
Where is the line drawn, then, since, in SF, anything could be rationally explained? Off-page, the Finger of God could be explained in many non-religious, scientific ways. Does that mean that we assume the rational ways are true? And, if so, does that make all novels set in the future SF?
Even if your input was completely useless (which it most definitely never is) I would still welcome your feedback. You know at least as much about the book (CotM) as I do. Posts: 1594 | Registered: Apr 2006
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posted
Flaming Toad on a Stick "...does that make all novels set in the future SF?"
I take to heart the points you've made. You did bring up some aspects I hadn't thought of.
To the quote above, that is an interesting question. Do all stories that take place in the future, especially the distant future, all fall into the Sci-Fi catagory?
As I was writing what turned out to be a much longer post than I planned above, I was wondering that same thing myself. I am tempted to say yes, if it takes place in the distant future it is automatically science fiction, because in all but an extremely few cases, it would call for the story to speculate on future technology even if the technology was incidental to the actual story.
Still, I resist actually coming right out and saying it. I can recall times when Sci-Fi actually takes place in the past. For example, see the animated movie "Steam Boy". It takes place in what appears to be London in the 1800's, the age of steam, and fantastic ultra-modern inventions are contained in the movie, and they are all steam powered.
But it really isn't fair to bring 'Steam Boy' into the discussion, because you specifically asked about the future. What if the future is a primitive somewhat apocalyptic world where functionally everything has gone back in time to a native subsistence type of life. Would that qualify as Sci-Fi? It speculates on the nature of the future, but it does so in the absents of modern technology. So Sci-Fi or not Sci-Fi?
Again, one last reminder, sometime genres are mixed. "Steam Boy" could be classified as fantasy Sci-Fi or Sci-Fi Fantasy.
So, extremely interesting question, and one that I can't really answer definitively.
Last last point, regarding 'The Stand', when you say 'Finger of God' is that literal? Is that how the book explains what happens? It literally says they were saved by the 'Finger of God'; by Divine intervention?
posted
Again, you raise some good points. I think that any fiction that relies on scientific technology NOT present in the time of the writing of the novel is science fiction. I would think that a novel set in the past, with inventions that were not there in that time period, could be considered science fiction.
And yes, some stories can be mixed. I think you're right in one of your original points-the existence of an advanced scientific culture is not enough to qualify something as SF. Not good SF, anyway.
In CotM, all but one spectacular events was explained rationally. Does that mean that we assume the rest is rational, just unexplained?
The Stand's ending can be summed up by OSC.
quote: the story-telling mistake that ruined the ending of The Stand for me. King relied on good Calvinist theology when his novel ended with all the struggles of human characters amounting to nothing, so that only the finger of God could save the world from the Walking Man. However, I, for one, found that to be infuriating. If God was going to solve everything all by himself, why did I spend so much time reading seven billion pages about the suffering and accomplishments of the human characters?
I tend to disagree with OSC on that point, but it kinda puts the story in perspective. The Finger of God is explained as a divine intervention.
Steve, it seems your influence is starting to affect me. I'm starting to write long, rambling posts!
Just a few thoughts.
Alex/Flaming Toad on a Stick Posts: 1594 | Registered: Apr 2006
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posted
Going back to Malu and his ways of communicating with Jane: Grace and some other people on the planet were prepared to help to save Jane by disconnecting their computer network or something like that, which clearly means they knew exactly what Jane was. Also, if I remember right, Jane mentions that she has some friends on some planets other than we know of. So 1) either she "manifested" herself to some people or 2) they were somehow able to discover her existence
Here the question would also be if Grace knew of Jane before Malu and told him, or the other way round.
I don't know if it brings anything to the discussion, just some random thoughts
BTW, Malu getting to know of Jane by some "mystical" means wouldn't necessarily mean that the book is a "fantasy". What I like in OSC's books is that he doesn't depict the future world as devoid of spiritual values. In his universe mystical and unexplained things can happen in an otherwise rational reality just as they happen in OUR world. For example: there are shamans, who cure people in an apparently completely stupid ways - and still it WORKS! the placebo effect? Maybe. Or maybe not.
Posts: 218 | Registered: Jan 2006
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posted
This is off-topic, but I want to thank Alex and Steve for a very rewarding dialog that helped me to contemplate the issue. I've been in these forums for a few weeks now, and this is by far the best conversation I've seen to date.
posted
What about Ender's mind link with the Hive Queen? Was that dependent on the "bridge" that became Jane, or was it because he was holding her in his arms and asking who she was that her story was "revealed" to him? When he's toting her around, it seems like his communications with her are different from his link to Jane.
Posts: 11017 | Registered: Apr 2003
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posted
I think the bridge was necessary for the Hive Queen to find and understand Ender's mind enough to communicate with it. After that happened, the bridge was no longer necessary.
But I imagine the ability to communicate is all coming from the Hive Queen. She places her thoughts in Ender's mind, but Ender probably doesn't place his thoughts in the Queen's mind, rather, she has to go and read them from Ender's mind. So the ability to communicate philotically is all the Hive Queen's ability and not Ender's or Jane's.
Although, it is interesting that those that are closely linked to Ender can hear "echoes" from the Hive Queen, though it doesn't seem to be a conscious act, just a byproduct of the philotic links.
Posts: 1256 | Registered: May 2005
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camus "Although, it is interesting that those that are closely linked to Ender can hear "echoes" from the Hive Queen, though it doesn't seem to be a conscious act, just a byproduct of the philotic links."
Well, I'm completely off the central topic now, but Camus has brought up a curious point.
How will people communicate with the Hive Queen now that Ender is gone?
Certainly, the key to getting a favorable non-tactical/non-military response from the Star Congress with regard to the renewed present of their greatest preceived enemy, the Hive Queen and Formics, hinges on effective communication.
In the previous books, all those who could communicate with the Hive Queen did so as an extension of their own personal links to Ender.
Jane could possibly be the communications link to the Hive Queens, but I don't recall her ever directly communicating with them. She is aware of their presents, but can anyone ever remember direct communication between them?
Rooter and the other Father Trees could be a possible link, but that seems rather indirect. The Father Trees can communciate directly with the Hive Queen, but to relay that information to humans, they must use the Father language with consists of pounding sticks against the tree trunk and interpreting the changes in the sounds. Not a real effective from of communication, especially when the Father Trees don't travel well.
Perhaps Peter will retain Ender's ability to communicate with the Queen. On the deepest levels, Peter really is Ender, he has Ender's soul.
quote:How will people communicate with the Hive Queen now that Ender is gone?
Hmmm, interesting question. Have the bugger workers ever actually spoken? I suppose the Hive Queen could have a worker representative that, even if it couldn't speak, could at least type out messages from the Queen.
Posts: 1256 | Registered: May 2005
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posted
The trees were my first thought. Jane talks to the trees. Peter II might well be able to develope it, if it's not inherent. He does not, after all, posess Ender's memories or feelings. At this point it become interesting to wonder what he does have.
Whether it was deliberate or not, Card has posed an interesting theological (to Mormons) question. Can the gnolaum of one spirit ever rightfully posess the spirit of another? In general, I wouldn't normally think a different spirit can ever rightfully posess the body of another spirit, even if they are done using it. Of course, the Enderverse is not bound to follow Mormon doctrine. But in Mormon doctrine, the body will be connected with the spirit in perpetuity.
And yet it is not important that it literally be the same body. Miro's reclaiming of a healthy body does not on the face of it seem amiss. In this sense, when Ender died his spirit did not just leave his body, but his gnolaum left his spirit. Now if we were to get into the havoc wreaked by this spirit... that would not be sci-fi. If anything, the dissipation of Ender's body into dust... is weird. Is the implication of that that during a normal death the aiua of the physical body remains? So confusing.
Posts: 11017 | Registered: Apr 2003
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posted
Jane is philotically twined with the mother and fathertrees, who are strongly twined with the Hive Queen. With Ender gone, it would seem that Jane is the only remaining link to the Hive Queen that can speak with other humans. Another dilemma arises: will Starways Congress trust Jane as an interpreter between species? Or at all?
As for your last point, pooka, I think that the dissolution of corpses without auias makes some kind of sense. Bodies may die, but auias are immortal, and become part of the ground. However, when an auia leaves it's body, nothing holds it together. Tenuous, I know, but we're all pretty blind here.
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pooka "If anything, the dissipation of Ender's body into dust... is weird. Is the implication of that that during a normal death the aiua of the physical body remains? So confusing."
I could be wrong, but I think this is the part that is confusing you. First, let's start with Animistic religion as an example.
an·i·mism 1. The attribution of conscious life to natural objects or to nature itself. 2. The belief in the existence of spiritual beings that are separable or separate from bodies. 3. The hypothesis holding that an immaterial force animates the universe.
An Animist believes that everything in the physical world is imbued with spirit, in a sense is spiritually alive; there is the spirit of the trees, the spirit of the rocks, the spirit of the river, etc....
OSC explains that when anything is created, it is created because an Auia chooses to come from 'Outside' to give it life and hold it together. So, every atom is held together by an independant Auia. That means that a person, a living being, is made up of countless millions of separate Auias.
However, each general Auia has a different degree of power or ability to hold things together. The Auias that choose to come into a human to create its spirit and to infuse it with intelligent life, are special powerful Auias. The Auias that are called forth to create a Hive Queen are even more powerful than the ones that create humans.
When Ender went Outside and accidentally created Val-II and Peter-II, millions of smaller Auias came together to create the constituent molecules that make up the body, but the spark of life, the intelligence, and the spiritual 'Self' came from Ender's own personal Self-Auia. He is in a sense sharing a single Auia-Self between three bodies.
When a normal person dies, the Spiritual-Self/Auia abandons the body and returns outside until it is called again. However, the constituent minor Auias that make up the basic chemistry of the body remain behind. When the body decays, it returns to its elementary chemical atoms (mostly carbon, and a few other minerals). These 'elements' of the body are retained. These Auia that make up the carbon and other molecules and atoms do not abandon their job. They remain connected and determined to carry out their limited spiritual life as 'atom holder togethers'.
When, because of the unique circumstances, Ender's Spiritual-Self/Auia abandons his body and goes to live with Peter-II's body, the constituent minor Auias abandon their task. Their greater task is to create a body for the Self-Auia, and that task is already being done by other minor Auias(Peter-II's body).
Because of the unique nature in which Ender died, the minor Auias have no reason to exist. Just as Miro's crippled body was abandon, so too is Enders. The collection of millions of minor Auias that held the body together, lose purpose, and return to the 'Outside' where they wait to be called again.
Now we can argue the validity of whether the millions of minor Auias should have abandon their task and allowed the atoms to disintigrate or not. But that is a matter of specualation; the books say they did and that somewhat settles it.
Pooka "...in Mormon doctrine, the body will be connected with the spirit in perpetuity. "
From one perspective, a human lifetime is like a vacation for the spirit. The major Self-spirits get tired of hanging around 'Outside' so they take on a physical form and spend 80 or 90 years in this physical form just to break the monotony.
From another perspective, a human lifetime, is a time in which the 'spirit' can learn great spiritual lessons from the struggles, trials, and temptations of mortal life.
So, the 'spirit' always carries the spiritual lessons of the body with it. In this sense, it never abandons the body, and in conversely, the body spiritually is never disconnnected from the lessons of the Self-spirit. So, spirit is always connected to body, and body is always connected to spirit, but only in the abstract sense, not literally and physically connected.
I think that the Self-Spirit leaving the body and returning to Heaven or 'Outside' is exactly what it means to die.
I think the Self-Spirit coming forth and entering a body/baby is exactly what it means to be alive in the human sense. If we could determine precisely when this occurs, we could end the abortion debate once and for all. Sadly, without some 'Soul-O-Meter' to detect the presents of a soul, it shall probably never be resolved.
posted
I don't think heaven and outside are the same place, though. I'll think more about what you said.
Death is separation. Speaking now of Mormon doctrine and not the Enderverse, there is a spiritual death as well as physical death. Physical death is the separation of the spirit and the body. Spiritual death is separation from the divine.
I don't see where the abortion debate comes into it. I don't think knowing the exact time there is a soul in a body makes it okay to terminate the body. Is it not wrong to burn a house with no one in it? It may not be as wrong as burning a house you know has people sleeping in it, but it's still a bad idea. Now you might need to if not doing so would, say, cause a plane full of people to crash. Most abortions in the country equate to burning the house so you can collect insurance money. Some say that because so many houses catch fire by accident, who are we to say no one should do it deliberately. Anyway, there are threads about abortion aplenty here, so we probably should not go on about that.
I don't see human life as a vacation for the spirit at all, but I don't know if you are approaching this from the Mormon point of view. If you are, it says in Alma "This life is the time to prepare to meet God." Mortality was intended for our spirit to gain a body, not to suspend spirituality.
So as I was thinking of this last night as I was reading, I was intrigued by the idea that Jane grew from the bridge between Ender and the queen. Perhaps the only way new spirit life comes about is out of the connection between two beings.
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Pooka "I don't think heaven and outside are the same place, though. I'll think more about what you said. "
Well, in all cases, I am speaking metaphorically because that is the only possible way to speak about these abstract things. More on that later.
Death is separation. Speaking now of Mormon doctrine and not the Enderverse, there is a spiritual death as well as physical death. Physical death is the separation of the spirit and the body. Spiritual death is separation from the divine.
I like this in conceptual terms. But to some extent, we are warping the concepts of Heaven and Divine to fit our physical world. More on that later.
PS: Won't touch the abortion issue, it is a 'hot-button' of rhetoric and personal beliefs that can never be resolved. 'nuf said.
I don't see human life as a vacation for the spirit at all, but I don't know if you are approaching this from the Mormon point of view. If you are, it says in Alma "This life is the time to prepare to meet God." Mortality was intended for our spirit to gain a body, not to suspend spirituality.
Again, my 'vacation' illustration was a metaphoric analogy, which is exactly what all discussions of God, Heaven, Spirit, and the Divine are.
In a conceptual sense, we must ask why would any spititual being or an eternal spiritual essense ever under any circumstances want to leave the spiritual realm and take on the misery and pain of physical existance? I used the analogy of a 'vacation' but did so with a slight intent at humor. It is a framework that allows us to conceptualize what is happening, and also note that I said the purpose of the 'vacation' was spiritual growth.
From a broad and general perspective, an eternal spirit chooses to leave the spiritual realm in order to obtain a higher level of spirituality. Great spiritual lessons are learned from the struggle of the body in earthly form. That, by some estimation, is our purpose on earth, to face the challenges of earthly life in a way that allows us to grow spiritually.
From the Eastern Philosophy perspective (primarily Buddhist) with each suscessive lifetime we rise or fall spiritually. Our goal is to live our lives so that we rise spiritually until we completely transend earthly life, until we become completely and wholly One with the universal spiritual essense. (Obviously nothing I say is from a pure Mormon perspective.) Some might call this achieving 'Buddahood', others might call it achieving 'Christhood', other might simply call it 'going to Heaven'.
I see that same concept in the Ender Series books. OSC seems to implies that Self-Auias are waiting 'Outside' to be called to a physical form. When that physical form dissipates (dies), the Self-Auia returns 'Outside' and waits to be called again.
Now is that 'later' I was talking about.
We are very limited beings when it comes to understanding the spiritual world. Since we have no verbal framework to discuss 'nothingness', places where beings are beingless, places where places are placesless, where everywhere in nowhere and where somewhere is everywhere.
Too confusing, so we take a non-persona, non-being, non-place, non-anything, and give it persona, being, place, and substance. Because without that, we simply can't talk about it.
We make God a 'father', and we make Heaven a magical place with clouds and angels and other fanciful things. But God transends physical form, he is an essenes, or being if you prefer, of total non-essense and non-being, of pure white spiritual light and unfathomable power.
Heaven is our personification of the non-place where all universal spirtual essense dwells. That sounds very much like 'Outside' to me. It may not to you, but that is probably because it has been stripped of all it's romantic, metaphorical, earthly aspects. However, I will add that it is next to impossible to talk about God or Heaven without resorting to earthbound metaphors.
In one sense, the Buddhists see 'nirvana', their equivalent of our Heaven, as joining with the universal spritual essense. What it means is to transend earthly life completely, and become so spiritually pure that endless cycles of death and rebirth are transended. You have attained a level of spritual perfection that puts you above the earthly plane and at one with the universal placeless beingless incomprehensiable pure spiritual light.
We say this in the framework of 'going to heaven', 'becoming one with God', 'joining the Divine', etc.... But this isn't literal, this is us poor limited humans trying to frame this in a framework we can understand and work with.
OSC says that souls, which he calls 'Auias', are called from 'Outside' to give true life to beings, and when the being dies, the Self-Auia returns to 'Outside' to wait to be called again. That sound like birth, life, death, and Heaven to me.
Can you explain to me how 'Outside' is not just Heaven stripped of all our earthly romantic notions? Can you explain to me how 'Outside' is not God stripped of all his earthly personafication?
Please, I do not mean these questions to at all sound hostile. Personally, I draw my spirituallity from every source available to me, and I am finding as I read more and more here that there are some aspects of Mormon beleifs that seem very appealing.
So, I make my statements and ask my questions with the most gentle of heart and good intentions. Though, I must admit, as small degree of my appearence of hostility is related to my ire at the way people fall into the trap of believing that our limited religious metaphors are indeed absolute fact and will hear nothing else.
I'm here to tell you (see there's the unintended hostility again) that God is not a person or, by any earthly concept, a being of any kind, and heaven is not that romantic fairytale of a notion that we learned as kids. It is all beyond our description, explanation, and comperhension, and because of this, we have no choice but to frame it in earthly metaphors. Which is fine, as long as we don't start believing that our painfully limited earthly descriptions are absolute reality.
In light of all this, is it really impossible for 'Outside' to be heaven?
One last and final appology for any hostility that might be detected in my post. This is somewhat of a hot-button for me, and is not directed at anyone and certainly in not intended to be personal.
quote:In a conceptual sense, we must ask why would any spititual being or an eternal spiritual essense ever under any circumstances want to leave the spiritual realm and take on the misery and pain of physical existance?
Manicheanism is the term for a belief that all things spirit are automatically better than all things physical. Pride is spirit, the unwillingness to be ruled by those entities that are in fact greater than the self. We were given free will with the possibility that it would be our choice, but like a cell that will not be governed the proud spirit can be cancerous.
I don't believe discussions of a spiritual nature are metaphorical.
But when the character of Malu is first introduced it is said he sees "Outside", and Peter later mentions "how can you sense things invisible to even the most sensitive instruments?" Malu is not magic. He just posesses a technology that is not understood. Is it reproducible? I don't know.
The real Deus Ex Machina, if that is what we are arguing this story has, is the arrangement to have Si Wang-Mu present so that when Ender dies to give Jane a body, his aiua is able to go into Peter. Of course it isn't a Deus Ex Machina because she has been paired with him throughout the book. But her puzzlings on it are definitely of the nature that she wonders how she wound up there, and is given to know what she must do.
The book also states at least 4 times how we do things and in an instant build a rationale that helps us feel okay about having done them. Our mind follows our will. I think this is meant to reflect the way people really are, as opposed to being unique to the Enderverse.
In our doctrine God is not bounded by time, so I agree he is not restricted to our dimension in that sense. But I don't know that his "outside" is the same sort of "outside" in the Enderverse. We also believe that God was once something like a person, though views vary as to what he is like now.
One of the unique tenets of "Mormonism" is that he has a glorified body, and that eternal life is to become acquainted with him. I think how he will seem to us depends a lot on who we are, as we each build a unique relationship with him. I tend to see more in others what I maybe lack in myself. It is said if a mortal were to be in his presence they would be consumed. I read this as meaning his glory would overpower my free will (as opposed to me bursting into flame). So it is up to me to make a conscious choice to go to him.
quote: I'm here to tell you (see there's the unintended hostility again) that God is not a person or, by any earthly concept, a being of any kind, and heaven is not that romantic fairytale of a notion that we learned as kids. It is all beyond our description, explanation, and comperhension, and because of this, we have no choice but to frame it in earthly metaphors. Which is fine, as long as we don't start believing that our painfully limited earthly descriptions are absolute reality.
In light of all this, is it really impossible for 'Outside' to be heaven?
My sentiments exactly, with a few exceptions. It is impossible for a human mind to truly grasp the concept of God or heaven, because all of our experiences have been with physical beings.
However, for Outside to be Heaven would cause some problems. Notably, if Outside is Heaven, and Jane is a god, how is it that she could be called from outside and trapped in a net? Also, why does Jane get bored? In the books, she amuses herself by crashing computer systems in all the Hundred Worlds. Hardly the actions of a god.
In case any of you are wondering, I actually really like it when we veer off-topic. It makes the thread more interesting.
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Consider for a moment what 'Outside' is. Compared to our infinite physical universe, it is infinitly bigger and infinitly more powerful. Our physical universe is like a tiny pin prick in the wider outside universe. It is even speculated that as Outside moves through whatever it moves through, it is spawning countless pin-prick universes.
It is possible that the 'Inside' of our physical universe, simply represents the yearning and thoughts of a Auia, or the collective 'Outside'. It 'thought' of the physical universe, and so there it was.
Further, 'Outside' is the source of the spark of life and the 'glue' that holds the physical world together. It is also the place where that 'spark of life' returns to after the physical death of whatever it is holding together. That still fits - birth, life, death, and Heaven.
In weight of its unfathomable magnitude and the fact that it is the source of all life, I can't see how it is not Heaven.
Heaven is not clouds and angels floating in the sky. We have no possible comprehension of what Heaven is, but I think the Buddhists vision of 'the other place' is a lot closer than the fanciful Christian vision.
Now, I am well aware that the Bible says God created us in his own image, but realistically, I think it is far more likely that we have created God in our image. Because, especially 2,000 years ago, we had no language or linguistic framework in which we could describe and discuss God. Even today we lack that. So, we had no choice but to represent him/it in a lower form that we could understand. Because without that 'lower form' the subject simply could not be discussed and analysed.
You, each and everyone, are free to believe what you like, but I'm convinced that God is nothing like the 'personification' of God what we have created, and Heaven is nothing like the 'place-ification' we have forced on it.
Both are a place of infinite spiritual energy, and your spiritual peace, your oneness with God, is how confortable you are in that place. If you are fully spiritually realized, then 'Outside' in the great mass of spiritualness, you are at peace, content to remain there. If you are not fully spiritually realized, then you have a longing for the 'flesh', a desire to live more lives. When you hear the calling for life, you feel the urge to go.
That is all very close to the way 'Outside' is portrayed in the Ender Series. It fits my model of 'God' and 'Heaven' a lot closer than the personified God and place-ified Heaven we are usually given. Those placings of physical apects onto God and Heaven diminish them from the unfathomable truth of it.
But I acknowledge that there are no words that truly allow us to describe an indescribable and incomprehensible place, so we are stuck with our flawed lesser descriptions. I personally think you do yourself (people in general) and you do God and Heaven a disservice if you start taking those metaphoric descriptions that are necessary because of our limited comprehension and language as absolute truth.
posted
I agree with you on all the non-Ender points. I think that the muslims had the right idea of not portraying God physically.
However, if Outside is Heaven, that means a whole bunch of things.
1. People can travel through Heaven at their convenience. 2. People can use the power of Heaven for personal gain. 3. Everything in Heaven wants to be Inside. When Miro and company go outside, auias around the spaceship started converging into phantom spaceships. 4. Heaven can be explained scientifically, using philotic theory. 5. Physical matter can exist in Heaven. 6. A physical species can pull a god out of Heaven and attach it to a philotic web. Jane obviously has to be a god, because who else but a god could marshall the power of heaven? 7. Every time someone goes Outside and comes back in, they are, in fact, resurrecting. 8. A god (Jane) has human emotions.
It's true that people are unable to grasp the idea of God, so naturally, a lot of metaphor is used, and many different interpretations are created, hence, religions. I'm a catholic, but I accept that men and women in other religions can be blessed and accepted into Heaven. Why else would Jesus teach tolerance?
Nobody should be afraid to post their opinions.
Just my opinion.
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[ August 18, 2007, 10:35 AM: Message edited by: Flaming Toad on a Stick ]
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Jesus didn't teach tolerance first and foremost, but he did teach that our mortal judgements tend not to be accurate. The teaching of his I have been pondering a bit lately is "To be carnally minded is death, but to be spiritually minded is life eternal."
As I finished reading the book this time, Peter's leveraging of the instantaneous space travel in order to get Jane's network back concerned me. I suppose it would be a fast, easy ticket to get him in charge of Starways Congress. But the implications of Ender and Miro's first trip outside puzzled me. In Children of the Mind they say this is eliminated by leaving people outside for a second, but later Jane says she might not be able to conceive of bringing Quara back in.
It just seems like there should be some kind of parameters on it. Perhaps up until now, everyone who has done the Outside trip has had an all consuming need for it, something that held their aiua's attention (in the sense that the dying Ender body did not have his attention). But that would seem to be countervened by Val II's ability to make the trips previously. I don't know. I'm just wondering if it would work for tourists to do it. Since any other person who had to make an interstellar voyage would probably be sufficiently motivated by not losing 30 years (apart from the lost of long term low yield income.)
Something to consider in the Manichean view of Spirit over Body is that this reading of St. Paul came from Aristotle by way of Augustine. It sounds open minded but results in denigration of the body and all that stuff the Catholic church is defending itself from in The DaVinci Code.
posted
Hopefully, the next Enderverse novel will have a more thorough explanation of philotic theory.
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I doubt it. Card likes to be vague enough (and I wouldn't actually consider Xenocide vague on the subject) that his science doesn't become dated too quickly. Maybe whenever Val was to make a space journey she was able to muster enough of the shared will to do it. She had some of his will or he wouldn't have gone into a coma when she really really got into gear.
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I think that Grego used metaphysics and philosophy more than he used science when he defined Outside. Does that change anything?
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See, when you know how a sewing machine works it doesn't seem that metaphysical at all. Then again, Grego said he didn't know how a sewing machine works.
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