" --Oh, and what if your family is Jewish but you convert to another religion? Are you still Jewish?--
Yep. Once we gotcha, ain't never lettin' ya go."
I have to disagree. I'm not myself Jewish, but all the Jews I have spoken to about this subject are unequivocal in this matter - if you are Jewish by family, but convert to another religion, YOU ARE NOT JEWISH.
Now, personally I think this is a bit odd, because your genetic and family history don't change if you change religion. However, this is how it is. The best explanation I've got is that if you convert, you are renouncing your heritage.
The state of Israel's law of return applies to anyone who has at least one Jewish grandparent, and is not a member of another religion (I think this is correct). Orthodox Judaism only recognises Jews as people with Jewish mothers.
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Ooops: Orthodox Judaism only recognises people to be Jewish if they have a Jewish mother OR if they have converted (using the Orthodox method).
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quote: I have some nits to pick with points you made. (This is how we welcome newbies here. [Wink] )
I'm not a newbie.
quote:I strongly disagree with that statement. It is so much more than that!
Well, yeah, it is a lot more than that. But in terms of the identity question, Judaism is only a religion.
quote:And yet, they are all Jews.
I like the definition I've heard: Judaism is a people.
My point exactly. They're all Jews, even though they're of varying nationalities.
quote:Actually, there are many Jews who can trace their lineage back, and know exactly which tribe they come from. I can . . . on my mother's side. And it is only a fairly recent thing (well, relatively speaking -- over 2000 years <g>) that all Jews are called "Yehudim" -- Jews -- and not just by their tribe. Even in Megillat Esther, one of the later works included in the Tanach, Mordechai is identified as a Binyamini, a member of the tribe of Benyamin. (He is also identified as a Yehudi, a Jew.)
Again, true, but not the point I was making. Most people have no idea what tribe they are from, which is that tribal descent doesn't impact on Jewishness. Posts: 24 | Registered: Apr 2005
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quote: The state of Israel's law of return applies to anyone who has at least one Jewish grandparent, and is not a member of another religion (I think this is correct).
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Bill Door, all Jews theoretically descended from Abraham so unlike other religions there is a genetic relation among Jews that could cause Jews to be considered a race by certain definitions. Furthermore, Zionism can be defined as Jewish nationalism which means there must be some kind of Jewish nation, nation by definition not the same thing as a state.
To claim that Jews as a whole do not lean left is absurd. Whether some areas or groups tend to have relatively Republican leaning, the vast majority majority of Jews are vote left in elections. In 2000 15% voted for Bush and in 2004 it was 20%.
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nfl!!! Welcome back!! How's the treatment going?
quote: Bill Door, all Jews theoretically descended from Abraham so unlike other religions there is a genetic relation among Jews that could cause Jews to be considered a race by certain definitions. Furthermore, Zionism can be defined as Jewish nationalism which means there must be some kind of Jewish nation, nation by definition not the same thing as a state.
Jews do tend to take on racial characteristics because of the genetic passage of Jewishness, but it is possible to convert to (and according to some, from) Judaism, whereas you can not change your race.
Zionism is Jewish nationalism as it relates to the state of Israel. However, Judaism existed for almost 2000 years without the state of Israel, so they aren't really one and the same. Furthermore, not all Jews are Zionists, and an argument could be made that not all Zionists are Jews.
What keeps this from being a clear-cut issue is that there are so many secular Jews who identify themselves as Jewish.
In my view, nationalism is pretty clearly defined by geopolitical boundaries. You don't find too many Canadian nationalists who don't live in Canada. But you find quite a number of observant Jews who live outside of Israel.
quote:To claim that Jews as a whole do not lean left is absurd. Whether some areas or groups tend to have relatively Republican leaning, the vast majority majority of Jews are vote left in elections. In 2000 15% voted for Bush and in 2004 it was 20%.
Jews as a whole definitely lean left. The shift to the right has taken place largely in Orthodox circles.
(I should have pointed that out in my original assertion. I took for granted that most heavily Jewish neighborhoods are heavily Orthodox)
Edit: fixed tags
[ April 20, 2005, 03:32 PM: Message edited by: Bill Door ]
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And it is only a fairly recent thing (well, relatively speaking -- over 2000 years <g>) that all Jews are called "Yehudim" -- Jews -- and not just by their tribe. Even in Megillat Esther, one of the later works included in the Tanach, Mordechai is identified as a Binyamini, a member of the tribe of Benyamin. (He is also identified as a Yehudi, a Jew.) 
