quote:For all the pork pies and clotted cream the English are reputed to consume, they still face less risk of diabetes and heart disease than their US counterparts, a new study shows...
...The analysis also suggests that while about 6.1% of adults in England suffer from diabetes, the illness affects 12.5% of US adults.
...While Americans have higher rates of cancer, they are less like to die from it than the English.
Before you get all huffy, I post this because not only is it interesting I think it is important to see. We North Americans have a problem. There are thousands of people getting sick every year who did not need to.
I must add that my defense of English food comes back here, since people often make derogatory comments about how disgusting it is. All I can say is that it seems they're doing something right .
Also: Clearly it's better to live in England and get healthcare in America .
Posts: 8473 | Registered: Apr 2003
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posted
It ain't the food. Due to overuse of the automobile -- and the financial ability of most Americans to own one, which didn't occur in the rest of the FirstWorld until after 1975 due to the long recovery from WWII -- Americans are FAR more exposed to the health hazards presented by ultrafine particulates and nanoparticles. All that rubber* being ground off of car tires on the roads&highways hasta end up someplace. And often that place is in people's lungs, from where nanoparticles are small enough to be absorbed into the bloodstream for transport to other body tissue.
* There are other sources of ultrafines and nanoparticles, just giving the most egregious example.
posted
Dr. Weston Price, as well as a number of researchers, found again and again in groups all over the world that cancer and heart disease, etc., were rampant in individuals and families who abandoned their traditional diets, and completely unknown in people who stayed with their traditional diets. I myself feel a great deal better when i stick with better-quality foods, specifically, my teeth are not nearly as sensitive.
All the groups Price studied said that fatty organs and body parts, as well as shellfish and fish eggs, were the single best foods you could eat. A number of tribes in East Africa eat almost nothing but meat, milk, and blood, and have perfect teeth, no cancer, etc. The amount of saturated fat in their diet approaches 80% of total calories in some cases.
The nutrient density of what you eat may be an important factor. The groups Dr. Price studied all had a minimum of 10 times the Vitamins A, D, and E in their diets, plus up to 9 times the calcium and 29 times the magnesium, as well as much higher amounts of other minerals, versus the Standard American Diet of the time.
Posts: 3354 | Registered: May 2005
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posted
Steven's Dr. Price has been successfully shown as a fraud on this website. Pay no heed to steven's claims to the contrary.
Posts: 4753 | Registered: May 2002
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Hatrackers have a real hate of the truth. Not that they are dumb, or ignorant, or uneducated--but there's something sick going on here.
Posts: 3354 | Registered: May 2005
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Yeah, all those pesky doctors and other people who understand what an epidemiological study is and why Dr. Price's "study" isn't one just hate the truth. That's it.
Posts: 26071 | Registered: Oct 2003
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Hey genius, did you forget about the controlled study that Dr. Francis Pottenger did?
Dag is proving the truth of my 2nd post.
Don't make me list the dozens of MDs who sit on the boards of the Weston Price Foundation or the Price-Pottenger foundation.
The facts are simple:
1. Refined sugar and grains have nearly all their minerals removed. Grain milling removes only the outside of the grain. The outside of the grain has 85% of the mineral content. The process of making white sugar removes literally all of the minerals.
2. Your bones and teeth are made of the exact same minerals that are removed in refining.
How is it such a leap to look at all the crooked teeth and disease around us, Dr. Pottenger's study, Price's book, and the 2 facts above, and decide that Price's conclusions were wrong?
Here's a suggestion--go buy two puppies from the same litter who look and act very similar. Feed one a diet of raw shellfish, raw organ meats from healhty animals, raw milk from healthy animals, butter oil, fish eggs, etc. Feed the other nothing but white flour, white sugar, and any other crap you can think of. Treat them both same in every way, otherwise.
See which one has a more symmetrical skeleton and better teeth formation. see which one lives longer.
Or, for quicker results, use mice.
Posts: 3354 | Registered: May 2005
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You're right. It is fairly sick to accuse those who disagree with you about scientific methods and results of being sick and to say that they hate the truth.
quote:Don't make me list the dozens of MDs who sit on the boards of the Weston Price Foundation or the Price-Pottenger foundation.
Please do. Because their web sites list 9 and 7 respectively. Not that "dozens" would actually lend it any more credibility. I can find dozens of MDs who say vegan diets are healthier. I can find dozens who say Atkin's is healthier.
quote:How is it such a leap to look at all the crooked teeth and disease around us, Dr. Pottenger's study, Price's book, and the 2 facts above, and decide that Price's conclusions were wrong?
It's not a leap to conclude that Price's conclusions were not scientifically probable based on that. It is a leap to decide that Price's conclusions were right based solely on that evidence.
Posts: 26071 | Registered: Oct 2003
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posted
I still think that quite a bit of the blame can go towards the American diet being so heavy in ultra-processed foods. High-fructose corn syrups, modified food starches and hydrogolized fats to name a few of the usual suspects.
Basically, in my opinion, these are kind of like super foods -- high test versions of the fuel we are meant to run on. All push the caloric levels of a food item by weight past the original version of it; for the same volume of food, there's a far greater number of calories in the "modern" processed stuff.
Not to mention the idea that the natural fats and sugars seem to be handled much better by the human body. For a long time, though, they tried to say that margarine was better for you than butter. We're finding that's just not the case.
And is high fructose corn syrup better for you than cane sugar? I don't know. I do know that cane sugar sodas really, really do taste better than their corn syrup counterparts.
Posts: 2848 | Registered: Feb 2003
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posted
I'm always wary of anything that comes out of New Scientist; they seem to be given to reporting 'outrageous' stories and exaggeration. One fairly recent article, for example, said that billions of people may die from bird flu.
aspectre, another reason why Americans overuse the automobile is because we don't have a good public transportation infrastructure; large companies like GM bought them out just after the turn of the century to make way for themselves, and since there hasn't been a crisis so terrible that we've been forced to create one anew, we haven't.
Posts: 143 | Registered: Sep 2005
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Hatrack is not as special as it thinks it is.
Here's how the future will play out--eventually in a few years Dr. Price's work will become old hat here. It will be discussed, accepted, studied, practiced, and eventually boring, simply because Price didn't have the tech to take his questions to a higher level. He knew that crappy food caused crooked teeth, narrow skeletons, heart disease, cancer, diabetes, and was an associating factor in most birth defects including Down's syndrome. However, he did not know the whys as well as we will in 10 or 12 years.
Proof that Hatrack isn't full of Enders of all ages? I got laughed off the boards when I brought up Price's work. There's nothing special about this message board if a music major can run circles around the entire message board in a discussion of nutrition.
You won't be laughing about Price's work in 12 years. You'll have moved beyond it, just like we moved beyond Newton's three laws.
It's already happening. Dag is already clearly closer than he was 6 months ago to admitting that Price's work COULD be right. Where will his head be on this subject in 3 years, or 8, or 10?
Posts: 3354 | Registered: May 2005
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quote:There's nothing special about this message board if a music major can run circles around the entire message board in a discussion of nutrition.
If you think you "ran circles" around ANYBODY in those discussions then you are clearly using that phrase in a manner which I've never encountered before. Most people don't use that phrase to mean "repeated the same thing over and over and mocked people who wanted to see an epidemiological study."
Posts: 26071 | Registered: Oct 2003
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posted
I'll pay anybody on this board $50 to read Dr. Price's book. You'll have to argue for or against it after reading it in a series of essay questions that I give. 3-5 questions, 250-400 words.
The issue is not, "does crappy food cause crooked teeth, and other skeletal deformities, cancer, heart disease, and diabetes?" The answer to that question is largely yes, althought other, smaller factors come in, like lifestyle and air quality.
The issue is, why? At least, that's where my head is at this point.
I'll also be the 1st to admit Price didn't do a thorough job. He failed when he missed the fact that yeasted bread is of noticeable poorer nutritional value that naturally leavened bread. That was mainly his own mistake; another, larger mistake, was simply the ignorance of the time. Nobody even knew that trace minerals had any role in nutrition in 1939. His mineral list included only 5--magnesium, calcium, phosphorus, potassium, and iron. That's almost laughably short compared with the dozens of minerals we actually need for good health.
Posts: 3354 | Registered: May 2005
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quote:Originally posted by steven: Hatrack is not as special as it thinks it is.
Here's how the future will play out--eventually in a few years Dr. Price's work will become old hat here. It will be discussed, accepted, studied, practiced, and eventually boring, simply because Price didn't have the tech to take his questions to a higher level. He knew that crappy food caused crooked teeth, narrow skeletons, heart disease, cancer, diabetes, and was an associating factor in most birth defects including Down's syndrome. However, he did not know the whys as well as we will in 10 or 12 years.
Proof that Hatrack isn't full of Enders of all ages? I got laughed off the boards when I brought up Price's work. There's nothing special about this message board if a music major can run circles around the entire message board in a discussion of nutrition.
You won't be laughing about Price's work in 12 years. You'll have moved beyond it, just like we moved beyond Newton's three laws.
It's already happening. Dag is already clearly closer than he was 6 months ago to admitting that Price's work COULD be right. Where will his head be on this subject in 3 years, or 8, or 10?
First of all, I don't believe many (if any at all) people pretend to be 'Enders' on this board. Sure, there are intelligent people on here, but I don't think the people here believe they're leaps and bounds above everyone else.
You, however, are starting to come off as if you believe that since you 'run circles' around us all, as if your area of study should be a limiting factor in what you know of other topics. You're on a slippery, pretentious slope and falling fast because you're obstinately holding onto an opinion not shared by the majority and treating your opinion as a prophecy of the future because you refuse to consider any other viewpoint.
You're not even presenting any proof to convince people. Your argument consists of, 'Here's how it's going to be in a decade because I see it that way, insert ad hominem argument against the entire Hatrack community here, and that is why I am right.' If you're trying to convince the rest of us of the validity of what you're saying, you're not doing a good job of it.
Posts: 143 | Registered: Sep 2005
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Eldrad, you don't even know 1/10th of the history of the discussion, am I right? You weren't here last June, July, or August, which is when it ALLLL went down. I deleted most of the threads, but if you're really curious, I think scottneb has copies somewhere.
King of Men, your PM is coming.
Posts: 3354 | Registered: May 2005
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quote:Originally posted by JonnyNotSoBravo: Thanks for that link, twinky! It is teh awesome!!!111111!1!1
I don't think you're being sarcastic, but I can't tell for sure. Anyway, you're welcome. I found it pretty surprising, myself, and will be curious to see if the finding is supported by any future research in the area.
Posts: 10886 | Registered: Feb 2000
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We are not getting sicker. Science is just naming and diagnosing things we never knew were problems before.
Posts: 3134 | Registered: Mar 2005
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quote:Originally posted by steven: Eldrad, you don't even know 1/10th of the history of the discussion, am I right? You weren't here last June, July, or August, which is when it ALLLL went down. I deleted most of the threads, but if you're really curious, I think scottneb has copies somewhere.
King of Men, your PM is coming.
Suppose for a moment that I am unfamiliar with the history of it. There is nothing in my post which relies on prior knowledge of the discussion, so your point is moot. You were coming as if your opinion were somehow better and more intelligent than the rest of Hatrack's without presenting anything to back it up other than ad hominem arguments against Hatrack in general, and that was the point I was making.
Posts: 143 | Registered: Sep 2005
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quote:...the United States has the second worst newborn mortality rate in the developed world... American babies are three times more likely to die in their first month as children born in Japan... Only Latvia...has a higher death rate for newborns than the United States... "The United States has more neonatologists and neonatal intensive care beds per person than Australia, Canada and the United Kingdom..."
should raise a strong suspicion that Americans are also starting off life less healthy due to environmental factors.
posted
Steven-- I accept your $50 book read/essay-question trade. I could definitely use the money, and I'd rather my analysis/scientific discernment skills don't get rusty. Send me a private message and I'll send you my address.
Posts: 71 | Registered: Mar 2006
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I emailed KoM 2 days ago. still no response. Squid, your profile doesn't allow PMs. Email me at the email addy in my profile.
Posts: 3354 | Registered: May 2005
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quote:Originally posted by JonnyNotSoBravo: Thanks for that link, twinky! It is teh awesome!!!111111!1!1
I don't think you're being sarcastic, but I can't tell for sure. Anyway, you're welcome. I found it pretty surprising, myself, and will be curious to see if the finding is supported by any future research in the area.
Heh. I wasn't being sarcastic. I was excited about it in a nerdy way, hence the "teh awesome!!!111111!1!1" I found it surprising myself as well, yet apparently other people in my house were acting like it's something they've talked about for months and months.
Posts: 1423 | Registered: Sep 2003
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quote:Originally posted by aspectre: It would seem that
quote:...the United States has the second worst newborn mortality rate in the developed world... American babies are three times more likely to die in their first month as children born in Japan... Only Latvia...has a higher death rate for newborns than the United States... "The United States has more neonatologists and neonatal intensive care beds per person than Australia, Canada and the United Kingdom..."
should raise a strong suspicion that Americans are also starting off life less healthy due to environmental factors.
Since the mothers that give birth to Americans overwhelmingly are Americans, who have more health problems, it should come as no surprise that their babies, which are directly affected by the mother's health, would have a higher mortality rate. I'm not sure you could jump to environmental factors as the cause here.
Posts: 1423 | Registered: Sep 2003
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Yeah, yeah, steven, I'll get around to you. I'm not feeling too good at the moment. Microclusters, probably.
Posts: 10645 | Registered: Jul 2004
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I can't speak for Choobak, but I'm guessing that when he said "french cook" he meant his French way of cooking, not that he has a personal cook. The French word "cuisine" means "way of cooking" in French but translates to "cook" in English.
Posts: 786 | Registered: Jun 2003
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quote:Dr. Weston Price, as well as a number of researchers, found again and again in groups all over the world that cancer and heart disease, etc., were rampant in individuals and families who abandoned their traditional diets, and completely unknown in people who stayed with their traditional diets. I myself feel a great deal better when i stick with better-quality foods, specifically, my teeth are not nearly as sensitive.
Are you sure you're not a scientologist, steven? This has a very Cruisian ring to it.
YOU DON'T UNDERSTAND THE HISTORY OF TEETH! DR. PRICE AND I DO!
And for those who weren't around for the fiasko that he's referring to, he deleted the threads because his hero was being widely discredited for a staggeringly poor understanding of the scientific method.
Posts: 5462 | Registered: Apr 2005
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quote:Originally posted by BaoQingTian: Since Choobak is French, that tidbit of information shouldn't be too surprising
Thanks for the help, Captain Obvious.
quote:Originally posted by Brian J. Hill:I can't speak for Choobak, but I'm guessing that when he said "french cook" he meant his French way of cooking, not that he has a personal cook. The French word "cuisine" means "way of cooking" in French but translates to "cook" in English.
Wow. Thanks. I really needed help in understanding that. I guess I'm just a little slow in understanding these things. Please, feel free to point out all of the blatantly obvious things I misinterpret in the future.
I don't know what I'd do without you.
This place is seriously lacking in the funny.
Posts: 4753 | Registered: May 2002
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posted
My list of detractors shrinks and shrinks. I've got what, 4 left?
If I had any idea how it feels to have someone younger, with less reading and experience in a subject area, to treat you like I have been treated on Dr. Price's work here....when I was about ages 12-25, I would not have torn into older, more experienced folks the way I did. It hurts. Spang's coments hurt, and so do Primal Curve's, although I don't think Curve will ever treat me like a human being no matter what, so...
Yes I do want to be treated like a human being, but not at the expense of basic common sense.
The only totally straight-toothed group of humans I've ever found that weren't all related to each other are the Guaymi Indianos on the reservation in Costa Rica, at the end of the road where you have to hike 3 hours theough mountainous jungle just to get there. They also had the widest ribcages I've ever seen on humans.
after reading Dr. Price's book, it's pretty easy to put that together with what he says ands conclude that a diet that lacks the minerals that build your bones and teeth is going to probably cause crappy bones and teeth. As far as the cancer stuff goes, you don't have to believe it if you don't want to.
Posts: 3354 | Registered: May 2005
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Just so you know, I believe some of your detractors are keeping quiet so as to avoid dog-piling you too badly. If you're counting, you can add me to the list as well.
Posts: 7954 | Registered: Mar 2004
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quote:when I was about ages 12-25, I would not have torn into older, more experienced folks the way I did.
1.) Ah, you must be talking about other people than the ones who attempted to discuss this with you last time, because that age range is low (quite low, for some) for most of the people involved.
2.) You have no basis for saying you are more experienced. You might be. I don't know. But I do know that you don't know enough about others' experiences to make that claim with any certainty.
3.) What's your reason for bringing up age? Does that actually matter to this discussion?
Posts: 26071 | Registered: Oct 2003
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quote:after reading Dr. Price's book, it's pretty easy to put that together with what he says ands conclude that a diet that lacks the minerals that build your bones and teeth is going to probably cause crappy bones and teeth.
BTW, the single biggest point of contention with your statements was the one that linked straight teeth with general health. I have no doubt that people who eat the minerals necessary for better teeth will have better teeth. It's the huge leaps beyond that many people question. The problem in the discussions occurred when you decided that requests for evidence for the contention that "straight teeth = general health" were somehow unfair attacks on you.
Posts: 26071 | Registered: Oct 2003
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Dag, thanks for your careful consideration. When I brought up age, I was specifically noticing that you, the oldest person on the thread, are also the most respectful toward me. I know Primal is 24, and I guess Spang is about 24 or 25 too. ElJay is, I would guess, about jerkty-three.
here's what you said:
"BTW, the single biggest point of contention with your statements was the one that linked straight teeth with general health. I have no doubt that people who eat the minerals necessary for better teeth will have better teeth. It's the huge leaps beyond that many people question. The problem in the discussions occurred when you decided that requests for evidence for the contention that "straight teeth = general health" were somehow unfair attacks on you."
Well, we have a bit of confusion. I thought everyone was trying to say that crooked teeth were genetic. Any fool who looks at Dr. Pottenger's work knows better. I was at a loss to explain why so many smart people couldn't see that simple fact. Personally, Dag, I think a lot of the younger folks are still not convinced that crooked teeth are the result of a diet that lacks mineral availability.
Speaking to the other question, I admit that heart disease and cancer have a genetic component. But I will also say that a WAP (that's short for "Weston A. Price") diet, assuming uncontaminated and mineral-rich animal products are used, will not only halt but reverse most of the effects of cancer, heart disease, tooth decay, and diabetes pretty much 100% of the time. If you don't think diet has a HUGE effect on health, look at Dr. Pottenger's work. The difference in cats fed raw meat versus cooked is at least slightly shocking to me. Pottenger didn't lie, he wasn't a Satanist, he wasn't Illuminati, or any other nonsense. He happened upon this pretty much by accident, while studying adrenal gland secretions. He is still largely ignored, but he wasn't wrong.
Posts: 3354 | Registered: May 2005
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quote:If I had any idea how it feels to have someone younger, with less reading and experience in a subject area, to treat you like I have been treated on Dr. Price's work here....when I was about ages 12-25, I would not have torn into older, more experienced folks the way I did.
This sentence doesn't make a lick of sense. I think you've misplaced some pronouns. And there's no reason that an older, more experienced person can't be wrong. Although I'm surprised to find out that you're older than me (I'm assuming you are older than the age range given, which would make you older than me); as numerous people have mentioned, all you have to go by in an online forum is words. Age can be pretty difficult to discern.
If I were to judge your age by your words and tone, I'd guess you were a pretty sharp 14 year old. Or a really slow 35 year old. Or somewhere in between.
quote:But I will also say that a WAP (that's short for "Weston A. Price") diet, assuming uncontaminated and mineral-rich animal products are used, will not only halt but reverse most of the effects of cancer, heart disease, tooth decay, and diabetes pretty much 100% of the time.
Sentences like this one are what leads people to conclude that you have no idea what you're talking about.
Posts: 5462 | Registered: Apr 2005
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quote:Originally posted by steven: I know Primal is 24
I'm 25.
This proves, beyond any doubtthatcouldbepossiblythoughtupbyareasonableperson, that you know absolutely nothing about anything.
Don't try to argue with me. I know I'm right and that's all that matters. It's just a simple point of logic.
You say that you "know" things are right because you are amazing and all-mighty. You "know" that all of your conclusions are scientific and infallable. You also "know" that I am 24, but I have proven that I am not.
posted
I haven't read Dr. Price's book, nor was I around for your discussion steven. But from what I've seen here I don't see what steven is proposing that is so radical. Body builders, some of the people who take nutrition more serious than most, won't touch any of the stuff that steven listed as being bad for you, whether they are cutting or bulking.
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I found it pretty surprising, myself, and will be curious to see if the finding is supported by any future research in the area.
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This place is seriously lacking in the funny.
