Well, aside from the inaccuracy of information from torture...
I just really liked the part where he tells the Gul something along the lines of, "All you're doing is taking the pain that someone forced on you and getting your revenge by forcing it on others." That's not how he put it; it sounded way better when he said it.
quote:As morning comes again, Gul Madred shares a breakfast of taspa eggs with Picard. Picard, finding his egg contains a still-living taspa, eats it greedily anyway. Madred, amused, talks of eating his first live taspa when he was six years old, and of having other eggs from the same nest taken from him forcibly by an older boy. Rather than accepting this, however, Picard pursues it.
"It must be rewarding you to repay others for all those years of misery."
"What do you mean?"
"Torture has never been a reliable means of extracting information. It is ultimately self-defeating as a means of control. One wonders why it is still practiced."
"I fail to see where this analysis is leading," says Madred dully.
Picard pounces, despite his tired voice. "Whenever I look at you now, I won't see a powerful Cardassian warrior. I will see a six- year old boy who is powerless to protect himself."
Madred erupts into a rage, turning the lights on Picard full blast. "Be quiet!"
"In spite of all you have done to me, I find you a pitiable man."
"Picard, stop it -" Madred raises the pain inducer. "- or I will turn this on and leave you in agony all night."
Picard laughs. "Ha! You called me Picard."
"What are the Federation's defense plans for Minos Korva?"
"There are four lights!"
Madred, enraged, begins tormenting Picard anew. "There are five lights! How many do you see now?"
Picard, despite his agony and growing incoherence, manages one final barb before lapsing into screams. "You are six years old! Weak and helpless! You cannot hurt me!"
posted
That is a great episode, one of the most memorable for me from the TNG series.
I especially love it at the end when the guards are coming to take him back to the Federation and Madred tries to get him to tell him the plans, and he refuses, and at the end screamsin Madred's face one last time: "There are FOUR lights!"
Patrick Stewart should've won an emmy for that episode.
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posted
This episode of The Next Generation is the first one I remember watching. When I watch this episode on reruns or when I'm bored, I get this incredibly nostalgic feeling. Suddenly, I'm back at home in my pajamas up past my bedtime because with my parents watching my first adult TV show.
Since then, many of my childhood memories have been tied to Star Trek episodes.
Posts: 1711 | Registered: Jun 2004
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posted
While I generally agree with that episode's stance on torture, it should be pointed out that it's not a 'clean' analogy for the entire torture argument. As Picard eloquently pointed out, his Cardassian tormentor had a whole bunch of psychological issues mixed up that virtually guaranteed his results would be false.
I think one of the more overlooked questions about torture is not whether or not it 'works', or even what its long-term implications are...but how do you find someone you trust enough to 'reliably' torture a prisoner for information? Assuming such a thing is possible, I mean.
I don't know a single person I'd trust enough with that responsibility, if I did believe torture should be practiced in any circumstances-and I'm not sure about that question, either.
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One of the best of all Star Trek episodes, and of TNG of course. Lots of Picard, lots of morality, lots of insight. My favorite kind of sci-fi, sci-fi which focuses on human stories in a sci-fi setting. It's a pair of episodes I watch about every other time I see it on TV, which is something like twice a year I guess.
Edit: Hehe, whaddaya know? It's saved on my DVR right now!
Posts: 17164 | Registered: Jun 2001
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I also think the plot line that takes place on the Enterprise is interesting. Comparing Jellico's and Picard's command styles is a good insight into different types of leadership.
Posts: 3546 | Registered: Jul 2002
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posted
Rakeesh, it wasn't just about the reliability of the information. I mean, what kind of atmosphere do we live in in which torture is acceptable? I think it has a lot to do with a similar mindset to the Gul, honestly.
And the part where he brought his daughter in made me so sad.
posted
"The Drumhead", concerning a witch-hunt on the enterprise led by Jean Simmons, was also awesome and made a good point.
quote: Admiral Satie strikes back at Picard in during the inquiry.
ADMIRAL SATIE I question your actions, Captain... I question your choices... I question your loyalty...
She glares at the Admiral, who looks down at the floor. He's finding this harder and harder to endure. There is a small silence, and Picard's voice fills it, speaking softly but in a tone that commands attention.
PICARD There is a saying... which many of us have heard since we were school children... "With the first link, the chain is forged. The first speech censured, the first thought forbidden, the first freedom denied -- chains us all, irrevocably."
Two bright spots have appeared on Norah Satie's cheeks. Her eyes burn into Picard.
PICARD Those words were uttered by Judge Aaron Satie -- as wisdom and warning. The very first time any man's freedoms are trampled... we are all damaged. (beat) I fear... that today... on this starship... we are forging that chain.
ADMIRAL SATIE (outraged) How dare you -- you who consort with Romulans... invoke my father's name to support your traitorous arguments... It is an offense... to everything I hold dear... to hear those words used to subvert the United Federation of Planets. My father was a great man... his name stands for principle, and integrity... you dirty that name by speaking it...
The Admiral is now staring at her, dismayed by what she is saying.
ADMIRAL SATIE (continuous)He loved the Federation... but you, Picard... corrupt it... you and those like you undermine our very way of life...
The Admiral wants no more of this debacle. He rises and starts for the door.
ADMIRAL SATIE I will expose you for what you are... I've brought down bigger men than you, Picard...
The room is hushed. She turns around, sees all eyes on her. She now sees the Admiral's empty chair. She casts one glance at Picard, who holds her gaze coolly. She takes a breath, moves toward her table, sits.
ADMIRAL SATIE (with dignity) I have nothing more to say.
posted
Babylon 5 also did a couple of great "torture" episodes. One where they bring in Jack The Ripper to torture the truth out of our heros--not as interrogation, but as a trial-by-pain. There are lots of great things said about pain in that episode.
There is another one where the main hero is tortured by the government not to get info, but to break him as others have been broken.
I may have to spend the day on B5 sites to get quotes on those.
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I really liked those episodes back when they aired, but I think the "four lights" thing was an overt nod to 1984.
Posts: 10886 | Registered: Feb 2000
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"There is nothing to be gained by trying to harm me, I am not the enemy. To be the enemy, I must have some personal stake in what happens to you. I am not interested in that at all. I'm here to do a job, nothing more. You are a name, a file, and a case number, that's all." Interrogator to Sheridan, Intersections in Real Time
"It does prove though how everything is a matter of perspective. You see what you think is daylight, and you assume it's morning. Take it away, you think it's night. Offer you a sandwich, if it's convenient, you'll think it's mid-day. The truth is fluid, the truth is subjective." Interrogator to Sheridan, Intersections in Real Time
Two quick ones, Dan.
Posts: 5422 | Registered: Dec 2001
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posted
Those episodes were awesome, awesome, awesome, Dan. Post a link to the transcript or something if you find it.
Also, re:
quote: I really liked those episodes back when they aired, but I think the "four lights" thing was an overt nod to 1984.
This is a nod to the person who started...the Jesuits? Can't remember. Something like that.
Anyways, he made a statement to the effect that a Jesuit's(?) faith should be such that if he said there were five lights in the face of four, the Jesuit should see five.
Posts: 13123 | Registered: Feb 2002
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quote:Originally posted by Storm Saxon: Those episodes were awesome, awesome, awesome, Dan. Post a link to the transcript or something if you find it.
Also, re:
quote: I really liked those episodes back when they aired, but I think the "four lights" thing was an overt nod to 1984.
This is a nod to the person who started...the Jesuits? Can't remember. Something like that.
Anyways, he made a statement to the effect that a Jesuit's(?) faith should be such that if he said there were five lights in the face of four, the Jesuit should see five.
That's interesting about the Jesuits especially in light (no pun intended) of the fact that they were encouraged to indulge in book learning as a means to support the theology. Eventually the Jesuits held alot of sway with the Pope himself, and usually it was the Jesuits who were attacked when people wanted to chip at the power of the Pope. But in any case if you could stand up to a Jesuit in a debate, it was quite a feat.
The idea of warrior monks has always intrigued me.
I have a question, if physical torture was abolished but mental based attacks were attempted would there be anything wrong with that ethically speaking?
Sort of along the lines of The Prisoners Dilemma or Game Theory.
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posted
Well, the key here was obedience, and I may very well be misremembering who the group was. It's driving me crazy.
Posts: 13123 | Registered: Feb 2002
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quote:Originally posted by Storm Saxon: Well, the key here was obedience, and I may very well be misremembering who the group was. It's driving me crazy.
I thought it was the Jesuits too but from Wikipedia,
"The Jesuits were founded just before the Counter-Reformation, a movement whose purpose was to reform the Catholic Church from within and to counter the Protestant Reformers, whose teachings were spreading throughout Catholic Europe. As part of their service to the Roman Church, the Jesuits encouraged people to continue their obedience both to scripture and also Catholic doctrine. Ignatius is known to have written:
"I will believe that the white that I see is black if the hierarchical Church so defines it."
Posts: 14316 | Registered: Jul 2005
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