posted
If I had known then what I know now about conflict diamonds, I would not have bought my sweetheart a natural diamond for the ring I gave her.
Posts: 16551 | Registered: Feb 2003
| IP: Logged |
posted
kmb: I posted my last post before you did, but watching the videos is still important.
I doubt I will change your opinion, but first lets check off a few things. First, value (in the sense of what someone is capable of earning for their work) is not measured in time, though it is important to many people. It is often easy to see some differences in the value of production, such as when one person produces several times the quantity of another person over the same time period (this frequently applies when comparing farm workers in the US and farm workers in the developing world).
Neither is it measured in effort, for similar reasons.
Value (in the sense I am talking about, and the sense that drives the world economy) is about how much people are willing to give for the product (which is not necessarily tangible) in free exchange.
I should say that I'm perfectly okay with people paying extra themselves for food made by someone they feel makes too little, either in price or by sending the money directly to the producers. That's one way of expressing what is valuable to you. My experience is that many of those who talk about ensuring someone is paid a living wage are interested in forcing people who would not otherwise pay so much to pay more for products, one way or another.
If your question is, are 'bosses' paid too much, I suggest you try operating a company where the 'bosses' are paid substantially less than what they are paid in other companies. It would also be interesting to try an experiment where the 'bosses' are paid substantially more than what they are paid in other companies. I suspect, and based on research that has been done on those situations, that neither would do very well. In this sense it is trivially true that bosses are generally paid as much as their value -- if you don't pay them about what other people are paying them, your firm does badly (less value), and if you pay them a lot more than what other people are paying them, your firm still does badly (any increase in value outweighed by increase in salary) -- strongly suggesting they are at a reasonable equilibrium.
But of course, you will claim that it is not individual firms that need changing, but the whole system. And it can be true; there are serious problems in some countries where institutional situations prevent fair allocation. I am all in favor of rectifying those situations. I usually note the strong correlation of rule of law, reduced corruption, and strong property rights with increases in individual welfare.
However, as you will see in the talks, we need to keep some things in mind. The people in third world countries are not, for the most part, stagnating, and where they are many of the causes are obvious (and have nothing to do with how much people are paid). The life expectancies and standards of living, by every measure, have skyrocketed in the decades since world war two. Poor nations are (again, for the most part) becoming rapidly better off, and faster than the developed nations are (in every measure except money, which is a rather shallow measure of how well off someone is, and even sometimes using money as a measure).
Posts: 15770 | Registered: Dec 2001
| IP: Logged |
quote:Originally posted by ElJay: Yeah. Any further diamonds I aquire will be estate jewelry or dug myself.
They make gem-quality synthetic diamonds these days. If I were getting engaged today, I'd seriously look at that.
Posts: 16551 | Registered: Feb 2003
| IP: Logged |
posted
Qaz: sounds like a good cause to rally around.
ElJay: compensation is not always in the form of a salary. Also, Ben and Jerry's has done even better after the removal of that salary cap.
Posts: 15770 | Registered: Dec 2001
| IP: Logged |
quote:Originally posted by ElJay: Yeah, but how much more cool would it be to dig your own diamond?
Finding your own diamond is tremendously cool.
I also happen to think that man-made diamonds are pretty dang cool. YMMV.
But you said that you'd only get diamonds from estates or from digging them yourself. I just wanted to point out that there are other options.
You can also get certified non-conflict, laser-etched diamonds from DeBeers, but even if I fully trusted DeBeers, I don't like them. If I'm going to go to the effort of being responsible with my diamond purchases, I'm going to go the extra mile and get a non-DeBeers diamond.
Posts: 16551 | Registered: Feb 2003
| IP: Logged |
posted
fugu, I live in a part of the world where some people are obscenely wealthy and other people live on the subway.
Yes, I think this is a systematic problem. Consumers don't decide what a normal salary of a CEO should be; other CEO's determine that.
All consumers look at is the end price. I think we should look at how that cost is distributed.
I like the Ben and Jerry model.
edit to add: You say that they have done better since the cap was lifted. Done better for whom? Is the ice cream better? Cheaper?
Posts: 11187 | Registered: Sep 2005
| IP: Logged |
quote:compensation is not always in the form of a salary. Also, Ben and Jerry's has done even better after the removal of that salary cap.
How they've done afterward is confounded by the company that came before (they were bought while growing their business) and basically irrelevant to your claim that they would not do very well.
Posts: 10177 | Registered: Apr 2001
| IP: Logged |
posted
Has anyone mentioned the concept of "Carbon Footprints" yet? "A Carbon Footprint is a measure of the impact human activities have on the environment in terms of the amount of green house gases produced, measured in units of carbon dioxide" (definition provided by the site listed below). If you're looking at a way of consuming responsibly, that is a fantastic place to start (all aspects of life, food consumption, clothing and good manufacturing, travel, etc).
(Summary: when the Financial Times visited five coffee growers in Peru with Fair Trade certifications, four of them were paying growers less than the minimum required for Fair Trade certification).
I should say that I suspect the wage actually being paid the workers was probably pretty reasonable for the work, I don't have a problem with that. I have a problem with the misrepresentation of the product people were purchasing. The more sound information is, the stronger the economy.
Posts: 15770 | Registered: Dec 2001
| IP: Logged |
posted
If companies really do perform better without a salary cap, I'd cal that pretty dang relevant to the topic at hand.
Posts: 16551 | Registered: Feb 2003
| IP: Logged |
posted
dkw: this is true. Of course, they were having some moderately severe ethical questions raised even before removing the cap.
But if we're raising it as an example of a business being able to make money despite not having much disparity between the highest and lowest paid workers, it isn't a very good one. One of the reasons they hired the CEO and removed the cap is that they were having a hard time managing the company in the state it was in.
edit: and are you seriously suggesting that the fact they had a salary cap over a decade ago is positively impacting profits today, MrSquicky? I can't even begin to imagine how that would work, especially given the employee turnover I know they've had. Maybe you're positing that the small number of people who are still there were only able to be hired because they had the salary cap, but don't mind working there now without the salary cap? edit again: and that the small number of people are also responsible for the significant corporate growth, disproportionately more than the other employees.
Posts: 15770 | Registered: Dec 2001
| IP: Logged |
posted
The salary multiple rule could easily be bypassed through contract labor. Many businesses already contract for menial tasks like janitorial services and shipping.
Posts: 3275 | Registered: May 2007
| IP: Logged |
posted
m_p_h, you can also get Canadian diamonds that are certifiably conflict-free. I'm not sure if they're through DeBeers or not. I also don't care to give DeBeers any more of my money.
Posts: 7954 | Registered: Mar 2004
| IP: Logged |
----- I got my diamonds through a private business that acquires their gems from mines in Thailand. If you can get a solid guarantee that the diamonds are from there you should be gold (no pun intended). But you do have to be careful as often conflict diamonds are laundered through places like India.
Posts: 14316 | Registered: Jul 2005
| IP: Logged |
posted
IIRC, a huge percentage of the global diamond market flows through Belgium, and that's where most of the conflict diamonds go as well.
Posts: 16551 | Registered: Feb 2003
| IP: Logged |
posted
Lets return to the question of the CEO and the homeless on the subway for a bit.
Well, in a sense. Lets stop talking about the CEO, because he isn't the problem. The problem is the homeless person living on the subway, and the CEO has nothing to do with it. We had destitute people when the top income tax bracket was over 90% and CEO pay was far lower (though not proportional to firm size: almost all changes in top CEO pay in the past several decades can be explained by the largest companies being much larger). Making the CEO's pay half or double what it is now isn't going to change the world of the person living in the subway. The problem of the person living in the subway is not a problem of income disparity, but of social institutions (and I'm including gov't programs in that class of things).
More interesting factoids. Did you know that the countries where people are becoming better off most rapidly are also those where income disparity is rising most rapidly, and that this has been observed historically as well? Social programs that lift the less well off up tend to come after a rapid initial rise in individual health and wealth that happens more rapidly among the more well off, but still lifts the poor considerably. Also, many countries that institute programs intended to help the poor by 'evening things out' tend to still see an increase in wealth disparity, often by the poor rapidly becoming much poorer.
A recent example is Venezuela. Despite all the changes to free up markets prior to Chavez, the gini coefficient (which measures income inequality) was generally falling (along with the poverty level, though that wasn't falling nearly rapidly enough; there were inarguably rampant problems in Venezuela). Now that Chavez has taken power and is taking money from the rich to give to the poor . . . the gini coefficient is somehow rising, and poverty is as well. And this is with a big oil price boom!
If we want to actually help people, it is important to look at what has actually worked.
Posts: 15770 | Registered: Dec 2001
| IP: Logged |
posted
Diamonds are just rocks. What I love about my engagement ring isn't the sparkly that it holds, it's the fact my hubby gave it to me and in doing so said "I love you back." No one had ever done that before.
It could have been a band of gold with no diamond.
It could have been a twist tie.
It could have been nothing but words.
Diamonds are worth so much because people place an unrealistic value on them. If you really care about conflict diamonds or whatever, don't buy diamonds at all. Buying diamonds at all pulls them out of the market and raises the prices for the diamonds still there. Buy a cubic zirconia or something. As the commercial says "A cubic zirconia looks just like a real diamond!"
Or give up the notion that Rocks = Love.
In any event, guys, go outside and breath in some fresh air. There seems to be an awful lot of hand wringing on this thread and it'll tie your fingers into knots.
Posts: 7085 | Registered: Apr 2001
| IP: Logged |
posted
I vote for moissanite: similar properties to diamonds (such that they initially fooled jewellers, unlike cubic zirconia), and similar durability, plus easier to set (since they can take a much higher temperature than diamonds, and can thus be placed directly in the pouring mold).
Posts: 15770 | Registered: Dec 2001
| IP: Logged |
posted
I don't buy diamonds out of the notion that rocks = love. I buy diamonds because I think they're pretty. And so far, I haven't seen a fake that I thought looked as nice. None of the diamonds I own have been given to me by anyone else, I purchased them all myself.
And I don't see hand-wringing on this thread. I see people discussing things they've thought a lot about, after someone asked for opinions. What exactly else happens every day on this discussion board?
Posts: 7954 | Registered: Mar 2004
| IP: Logged |
posted
I have been on this journey for about 15 years. It helps to think of it as a journey and acknowlegde you can't make all these choices overnight. I mostly use non disposable things- shopping bags, cloth pads, hankies, cloth diapers when we needed them. I buy fair trade coffee and chocolate,and we spend a rather large % of our money on food. Clothes- I buy second hand, except for socks and underwear. If I could afford it I'd buy sustainable sweatshop free NEW clothes. The rare new T-shirts I buy are almost always from cafepress- many of their shirts are from american apparel, which is sweat shop free.
Posts: 2711 | Registered: Mar 2004
| IP: Logged |
posted
so I have a quick question. I've been using re-usable shopping bags for a while now. But when i get a lot of produce i'm still racking up those smaller plastic produce bags. Anyone have any good ideas as to how to avoid this, aside from just placing all the produce in my cart sans bags?
Posts: 8741 | Registered: Apr 2001
| IP: Logged |
posted
My grocery store has plastic bag recycling. Really there's not a way to avoid those unless you bring your own reusable "green bags" to the store (those bags that improve the shelf life of your produce. You can wash them out and reuse them.) You'd have to check with the store first, though. Some might not allow it.
Otherwise you can do all the normal things with them you would with the other plastic bags, so they get at least more than one use.
Posts: 21182 | Registered: Sep 2004
| IP: Logged |
posted
In response to the thread in general, you can look into community supported agricultureprojects like this one. Since all the food is grown by members, we know that it's organic (although we aren't certified as such) and since the food is grown locally, it doesn't need to be packaged and transported. And of course it can't get any fresher.
We have a pickup on Tuesday and Saturday, right at the farm, and we bring our own bags, which are virtually all recycled grocery bags.
Posts: 3735 | Registered: Mar 2002
| IP: Logged |
kq, why wouldn't a store allow you to bring your own produce bags? Also, the problem with re-using those plastic produce bags is that they're much flimsier than the other plastic bags.
That's pretty awesome Glenn. Don't know if there's anything like that around me, but it's very cool none the less.
Posts: 8741 | Registered: Apr 2001
| IP: Logged |
posted
My thought was that their scales may be zeroed to the weight of one of their bags. But once I think about it, they probably aren't going to object to you bringing bags that weigh MORE when you're paying by the ounce/lb. But still, some people who work at grocery stores are weird. It just would be a good idea to check before, I think, and most of them would allow it if you had.
Okay, thought of another one, their bags are designed so they can read product codes through them, or, in the case of meat products, scan right through the bag. If your bags aren't see-through that might be an inconvenience. Not a big one, but just a thought when figuring out a solution.
I have successfully reused the produce bags for almost every thing I reuse the other bags for. Occasionally they are not the right size or need to be doubled for that use, but sometimes their size is an advantage instead of a drawback.
Posts: 21182 | Registered: Sep 2004
| IP: Logged |
posted
I've recently gone (fairly) organic. I won't say I've made the switch totally, but my veg and much of my meat is now organic. If there's one thing that I'll promote is that you need to make sure that if you buy organic you buy CERTIFIED organic. If it doesn't have the USDA Certified Organic symbol on the packaging, buyer beware. Certified organic food is checked by the USDA and certified as being made of at least 95% organic ingredients. It does allow for up to 5% non-organic ingredients which "cannot be found commercially in organic form."
Also, always buy fair trade, shade grown organic coffee and chocolate. Coffee and chocolate were meant to be grown under the canopy in the rain forests. That's where the trees grow when left alone in the wild. However, coffee and chocolate growers soon found that the plants would grow faster in direct sunlight. The problem? Unlike under the canopy, when grown in direct sunlight the plants are extremely vulnerable to pests. The solution? Pesticides and lots of them. Organic coffee and chocolate is grown under the canopy of the rain forest where it belongs. If you are going both organic and fair trade in your coffee and chocolate, check your labels. While almost all (if not completely all) fair trade chocolate and coffee is organic, nowhere near all organic coffee and chocolate is fair trade.
Oh, and about the diamonds. There's nothing wrong with getting your sweetheart a diamond anything. Just go with estate jewelry (much of which I think is way more beautiful than the mass produced stuff of today). If your honey really doesn't like "old stuff" just make sure that your diamond is certified conflict free. Responsible jewelers won't be offended if you ask for proof, and if they are, you probably didn't want their product anyway.
*Getting off the soapbox and heading for bed.*
Posts: 1214 | Registered: Aug 2005
| IP: Logged |
quote: you need to make sure that if you buy organic you buy CERTIFIED organic.
I keep this in mind when buying from regular stores but don't bother when buying from small local growers. Many of the farms I buy from use organic practices but have found it outside their means (too time consuming, too much paperwork) to maintain their organic certification. It does require a certain amount of trust: e.g. I ask the seller if their practices are sustainable/ pesticide-herbicide free, and I'm not going to do the research to make sure they're not lying.
This summer we have been moving toward eating local, organic/ sustainable, cruelty-free foods. We're far from 100%, but we're making progress. And I feel really good about it. I think every little bit helps. Our produce purchases have been virtually 100% local since mid-May.
As a bonus, everything has been delicious.
Posts: 834 | Registered: Jun 2005
| IP: Logged |
quote:That's pretty awesome Glenn. Don't know if there's anything like that around me, but it's very cool none the less.
You could start one!
My comment about certified organic: It costs a lot of money to get certified. A lot of the early converts to organic farming haven't gone to the trouble of doing the paperwork and paying the fees. So they just continue to produce food, often more "organically" than the big commercial organic farms.
As I said, the farm project I'm involved with is not certified organic, but it's undoubtedly the most organic food I can possibly find.
Posts: 3735 | Registered: Mar 2002
| IP: Logged |
posted
I got Mrs. BB gems from a Hong Kong dealer who gets her diamonds through Thailand, from the research she has done they are conflict free. But I still have nagging doubts in the back of my mind that I could have been more certain.
I've found that if you buy a smaller diamond you have alot more money for other gems stones that compliment the diamond. I'm very happy with the setup my jeweler helped me create.
Posts: 14316 | Registered: Jul 2005
| IP: Logged |
Printer-friendly view of this topic
![[Wink]](wink.gif)
(Coolness factor may or may not be impacted by how large a diamond you find.)
