I look forward to the new additions every week. All the way through, I've been resolving to read the first 5 books again just so I can remember names and happenings and put them together with the new book. Part VI was the first part where I felt completely lost. All that stuff with Spain etc, blah, blah. Help me here. I remember that Napoleon was causing a ruckus up north during Heartfire...so what's going on all the way down in New Orleans?? Does that have to do with him? Do we not know yet and am I just jumping the gun? I'll go back and read it again. But I really do have to get my hands on the first 5 books again. I think I'll just get more and more confused as CC continues to unfold.
And can someone who has the patience refresh my memory concerning Bowie?
Posts: 6415 | Registered: Jul 2000
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posted
Bowie wasn't in a previous novel -- he's in the short story The Yazoo Queen, which I don't believe has been published yet, but will be included in Legends II. Card says that reading the short shouldn't be necessary to understand the novel, though -- nor actually should reading the other five novels (or the other short story, The Grinning Man). Crystal City is designed to stand on its own if necessary.
posted
It seems that what we are told in part VI *IS* where we learn about those events. This isn't an (alternate) history book. We're generally told what we need to know to understand what is happening to Alvin and his posse.
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posted
So everything about Spain and Nueva Barcelona is new stuff and I shouldn't prematurely try to understand what's going on? Whew. That's a relief.
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posted
Where can one get the short story "The Grinning Man?" And what is "Legends II?" Just curious. I am getting hungry for all things Alvin, or soon will be when my LOTR hunger is abated again.
Thanks!
Phil
PS How is Walking on Water sounding so far? I haven't touched it yet because part of me wants to wait for the entire book but part is very curious. Aiee!
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posted
It is somewhat frustrating not knowing what I'm missing from the intervening short stories (that aren't available yet) and what I'm just forgetting.
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posted
Wha....short stories?? help me here folks. I'm having trouble too because I think that I've forgotten about stuff I haven't even read (like Bowie for instance). So what is Legends, Legends II and why am I in the dark?
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posted
They're collections of short stories by famous fantasy authors( OSC, George RR Martin, Terry Pratchett, Robert Jordan, Terry Goodkind, to name a bunch). You should be able to find it at your local bookstore... I think Legends is out in two or three papaer backs now, I have the hardback. I don't think Legends 2 is out yet.
posted
What's up with the "iffen" in sentences like this one:
quote:"Seeing you in the market here, I got to say, I'd feel a lot better about this expedition iffen you were along."
Is it a typo or intended as an oddity in the speach of certain characters (I've seen it more than once in Walking on Water)? If the latter, do you guys think it sounds natural? I'm not sure why, but it throws me off somewhat, maybe because I can't determine whether it is a typo, or because it feels lonely in an otherwise grammatical sentence.
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posted
I agree Tristan. It should have read "Seeing you in the market here, I gots to say, I reckon I'd feel a whole mess better about this expedition iffen you was along." Posts: 9871 | Registered: Aug 2001
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quote:"We watch for it," said Arthur Stuart. "We both kind of like to catch 'em at it, iffen we can."
By Arthur Stuart.
quote:And these skeeters were bound to suck all the blood out of him and turn him into one big itch iffen he didn't get out of this place.
By Alvin, thinking.
quote:"It kind of reassures me to have you here," said Squirrel. "Iffen your Peggy sent you here, stands to reason this is the safest place to be."
By Squirrel.
quote:Arthur Stuart spoke up sharp. "You don't know Peggy iffen you think that," he said.
Arthur Stuart again.
quote:And then all at once they pounce, no warning at all. Except there's been plenty of warning, iffen that poor bird or mouse had had the brains to just get up and move.
By Alvin, talking.
quote:But he knew that couldn't be so -- iffen some mob blamed Dead Mary for the plague and wanted to kill her for it, they'd have burned down the house around them.
Arthur Stuart, thinking.
quote:"Seeing you in the market here, I got to say, I'd feel a lot better about this expedition iffen you were along."
Jim Bowie.
Seriously. You guys are OK with this? Is "iffen" a recognised part of English slang, or something OSC has made up? Is my averse reaction to the word a result of my provincial Swedish up-bringing and limited exposure to the quirks of colloquial English, or does it strike also native speakers as odd?
I'd like to know, iffen you wouldn't mind answering.
posted
And it's not as if it's used consistently. Both Alvin, Arthur Stuart, Squirrel AND Bowie use regular "if" too. Iffen he isn't consistent, I don't know what to believe.
Posts: 896 | Registered: Feb 2001
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iffin, iffen: A form of the word if; used in direct address when the speaker wants to persuade an audience by being cutesy. Inspired by the Irish. Example: We could all meet at Julie's apartment iffin you'd like. http://www.slangsite.com/slang/I.html
quote: The Coon 'N Crockett Muzzleloaders Home Page has good information on "do's and don'ts" for black powder shooting, technical data on flintlocks and percussion locks, times and details for an IRC chat for Cyberskinners, and the Language of the Rendezvous-- "It jest won't wash at ronnyvoo iffen yuh can't talk proper-like!"
A quote from the Coon "N Crockett Muzzleloaders site itself.
quote: The language of the trappers was a combination of English, French, Spanish, several Indian languages and as far from gramatical and literary correctness as it is possible to imagine. A peculiar jargon grew up amongst the trapping fraternity which was both vigorous and picturesque. Contorted words from various languages were combined with distorted English and were used as a means of communication. Here is a partial collection of words used in the language of the mountain men. The next time you get to rendezvous and see one of your good friends you can yell "Hey ole hoss, I see yer still keepin' yer hair!" and you will be just that more "period correct".
I think it's a period thing. Maybe the fact that you're from Sweden is the problem? Most of us grew up hearing that word in movies and seen it in books about the period.
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posted
I think book II, Red Prophet, had the thickest dialect with Taleswapper. I don't know if dialect is quite the word I mean. Vernacular? Anyway, it's much milder than in, for instance, Lady Chatterly's Lover by D. H. Lawrence.
Posts: 11017 | Registered: Apr 2003
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posted
To be fair to Al, Arthur and so on, people do talk differently from conversation to conversation. I know folks who use "ain't" as well as "aren't" depending on the situation, context, etc. Only my now dearly departed grandmother from Easter Ky. used "hain't," though. Alvin and Arthur have some education that confuses things, too. I recall them joking with each other when one sounds "like Miss Larner" when they talk and other times fall back into the familiar speech pattern they grew up with. My mother, who lived her first 20 years in Ky. completely lost her accent by the time I was born in her late 20's. Yet, she is down there with her sisters for a full weekend and it comes back in full, at least while there. Then it fades to a neutral mid-west accent that wouldn't hint in the least bit a Ky. origin. Just a thought. I ain't no expert on dialect, vernacular or speech patterns, after all.
posted
Ok. Thinking of Part VIII. Loved it!! I loved that part where he falls to his knees. Such good description of his thoughts and feelings.
*Possible Spoilers* Refresh my memory. Has Alvin always been so self-condemning, or has it just built up over years of trying to do something he's not quite sure how to do? He seems much more moody and sad in this book. (even before the yellow fever outbreak) Is it all of the sudden, or was that building up in the last two or three books? I don't remember and it seems rather sudden to me.
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So....um...tell me honestly. What are your thoughts about Alvin and the way he thinks/acts in this novel so far? (I'm talking to those of you that know these books inside and out...*coughHobbesandPapaMoosetonameafewcough* and have a deeper understanding than I do.) I'm a little confused and have got my undees in a twist...but I'd love to hear some of your thoughts on the subject if you've been following along.
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posted
Beginning with the end of Alvin Journeyman, and in full bloom by the short story The Grinning Man, Alvin's personality has taken a sharp turn towards annoying and obnoxious. I'm not at all sure why, but he's being written in an increasingly unlikeable fashion. It's my hope that this is deliberate, and Card is going somewhere with that.
Posts: 37449 | Registered: May 1999
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posted
Can you give an example Tom? What do you mean by annoying and obnoxious? Just complaining about his work, or being overly "goody-two shoes" or what?
posted
This book is very confusing, at least up to part Nine. In his conversation with Cally we find out that it's been six years since they saw each other, presumably at the end of Heartfire.
The death of the first baby is briefly alluded to, which could explain a great deal of it.
But his relationship with Margaret (Peggy) is real puzzling. He seems to resent her and view her as one of the ancient Fates. This is sad to see and would seem to call for more justification or resolution. They are in a very different place from when he came to her rescue in the court.
In the conversation with Cal, it is hard to feel 100% on Alvin's side. Truth is, we haven't seen much interaction between the two (I guess there hasn't been much) but we are used to seeing Cal's character revealed by his point of view. So maybe it will all come clear in the next chapter. After all, Peggy did see a path where they weren't dire enemies after Alvin healed him.
Posts: 11017 | Registered: Apr 2003
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posted
Tom, I'm totally feeling that way too. It's bugging me because Alvin has always been one of my favorite characters. The problem I have is that it seems to be a REALLY sharp turn, all of the sudden kind of character change...makes me sad. I too am disconcerted when I read of his attitude toward Peggy and his work. Is this a chunk of unmaking going on, or is he just getting cantankerous?
The flow also seems really stop and go...kind of choppy. Maybe this only happens when we're seeing Alvin's thoughts and so OSC is doing it on purpose. Makes for uncomfortable reading though.
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posted
Things I remember from other books that add to the foreboding: Weren't there graves for three baby brothers at the Guesters? Or am I getting mixed up with Gone with the Wind? But then, the baby of Alvin and Peggy's that died was a girl. I doubt Peggy would blame him, but of course he blames himself.
Also, when Peggy ran away before Alvin first arrived in Hatrack River it was because she envisioned a future where he didn't love her so much as really really respect her. I guess that is the sense I am getting here.
Posts: 11017 | Registered: Apr 2003
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posted
Refresh...did the baby die in one of the short stories or am I being forgetful? If it was in one of the short stories, I'd just like to say that that's REALLY UNFAIR to put major plot points in a place where not everyone will see them at first. Posts: 6415 | Registered: Jul 2000
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posted
I think it's mentioned briefly in part 3 of Walk on Water, and it may be touched on again in the conversation with La Tia. It's there if you already know about it. So the baby girl they were expecting in Heartfire was born early and died (which is an awfully short timeline considering she was conceived before they parted ways at the end of Alvin Journeyman). They are now expecting another baby after six years. Unless I'm forgetting something, like Calvin never being cognizant of Alvin's visit at the end of Heartfire.
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posted
You catch the new installment? I guess we have the obligatory rear inuuendo so we can stop dreading that.
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posted
Based on Arthur Stuarts age in Walking on Water, I think we have to conclude that the 6 years was from the time that Alvin returned to Vigor Church and not from Calvin's and Alvin's meeting at the end of Heartfire.
I am also disappointed that Card put the death of Alvin and Peggy's first child in a short story that is hard to find.
Posts: 12591 | Registered: Jan 2000
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posted
Ok, a little about the death of Alvin & Peggy's first child. Heck, this isn't even a spoiler. There really wasn't much written about it, other than that it happened. It was all of two sentences. When asked about it, Mr. Card's response was, "The baby isn't resolved anywhere. I just can't write about the loss of a baby."
As to the change in the description of Alvin, my personal opinion is to think that it's intentional. This part may contain spoilers, but only of books earlier in the series, so you may skip if you like, but the people concerned about a change in Alvin have likely already read the previous books, right?
Arthur Stuart is the narrator. Arthur's opinion of Alvin changes over time. His audience may, also. When he told the tale (books one through four) to Purity Orphan, he had a specific goal in mind, and one may reasonably think that his goal, at least in part, involved making Alvin look good. Thus, while Arthur is certainly telling the tale true, his method would likely cast Alvin in the best light possible.
The story contained in books five and six (and the intervening short stories, and possibly book seven) is being told to someone, but we don't know who, we don't know when, and we don't know why. Maybe Arthur wants Alvin to look bad. Maybe he's angry at Alvin, and can't help but let that anger show through. Imagine if books one through four had been written by Calvin -- how different they would be. Well, the narrator has been changing over time -- not changing so much that he's now like Calvin, but certainly it's possible that he's changed enough that he's no longer like the Arthur Stuart of book five.
And on the reality side, the author has changed over the years, too. I won't argue that. But that doesn't have to be the reason for the change in one's view of Alvin, at least not to my mind.
--Pop
[Edit -- corrected placement of Arthur's narration in book sequence and other related changes.]
[ September 30, 2003, 03:58 PM: Message edited by: Papa Moose ]
Posts: 6213 | Registered: May 2001
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posted
I'm pretty sure it's in part 3. I'll go get it. SPOILER if you didn't read part 3 or the rest of this thread. I get testy about having to do spoiler warnings I also hope this doesn't violate the prepublication rights
"If he was a real healer, he could have saved his newborn baby when it was born too young and couldn't breathe. But he just didn't understand what was going on inside the lungs. The baby was dead before he figured out a single thing."
Then, in Part 8: "To hear it in words like that, from a stranger, stabbed him in the heart. It brought tears to his eyes, and a weakness, almost a giddiness to his head. Without thinking, he sank to his knees. That was his treasure. All the lives he had failed to save in Barcy, they were that one life, the child who had died those years ago. And his redemption, his only hope, his -- yes, his treasure -- it was the new child that was so far away, and beyond his reach, in someone else's charge."
Ah, this also answers the question of time lapse. It has been all those years since the end of Heartfire.
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posted
I don't blame him for being unable to write about it. He mentions that in the Sci Fi interview, that he would never have been able to write Lost Boys now. Must be why I've never been able to read it. I've never even tried. Someone gave me the gist of it, and sometimes spoilers are a good thing.
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posted
Thanks for clearing that up. Makes sense now, though it seemed a little buried. I would have had to go back and reread everything again to understand it. Maybe I wasn't paying close enough attention.
Back to Moose's response, whether it's intentional or not, the change in Alvin does seem to be rather...drastic. Maybe I'm just suffering from memory loss too. That's always a possibility. And Arthur Stuart is not always narrating. Sometimes it's an ominiscient look into Alvin's actual thoughts and feelings. Those are what strike me as the most different. But I guess, after 6 years, he could be different. It's just kind of weird for me because I didn't read about him during that time and see the change.
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posted
The latest installment, Crystal Ball, helps to frame him a bit better. We at least know he remembers being the Alvin we remember. And we'll still have the rest of the book to see if all this hostility and grief goes anywhere. And the upside of feeling life is futile is that you're afraid of a lot less.
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posted
pooka, I see what you mean. I'm excited to read the rest of the book. I really want to see how he interacts with Peggy if they finally see each other...
But help me out here...
quote: I've slain an evil man that you hadn't the courage to kill, Alvin.
Ok, who was Calvin talking about? ( I usually have such a good memory, but with these books it seems like I've forgotten everything.)
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posted
Thanks Papa Moose... where in the books do we find out that it's Arthur Stuart who narrated books 1-4?
Posts: 2911 | Registered: Aug 2001
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posted
Arthur recounts the story (to then-present-day) to Purity Orphan in Heartfire, and when he does so he begins with the story about Little Peggy, which is also where the first novel begins. It's deduction, but it's accurate deduction. I'm pretty sure that OSC has confirmed it elsewhere, also.
posted
I just have a quick comment about a post that Tristan wrote way back in Sept. about the slang used. If you want a crash course in early American slang, read "The Grapes of Wrath" by J. Steinbeck. Not only will you learn more slang terms then you ever wanted to know, but it's also a pretty good book.
Posts: 15 | Registered: Oct 2003
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posted
I like the new book a lot so far. It's got a lot of things that were on my wish list for a new Alvin Maker book: no trials, no lawyers, a more complex Alvin, a new locale, and not crowding the book with all the characters from previous books...
Very much looking forward to reading the whole thing... (just looked it up at Amazon, it says Nov. 10th for the publication date)
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posted
As much as I complained about stuff in this serial, I'm sad that it's over and looking forward to the rest of the book. Posts: 6415 | Registered: Jul 2000
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posted
plaid- I quit reading "The Work and the Glory" (a historical fiction series about Joseph Smith etc) once the courtroom drama began. Though I've found it pretty interesting in this series.
Posts: 11017 | Registered: Apr 2003
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posted
Yeesh, let's not start talking about the Work and the Glory. I tried reading it for a guy and made it halfway through number 4 before I couldn't bear it any longer.
I thought the courtroom sections of the Alvin Maker series to be kind of a lull in the action, but I didn't notice them bogging down...I really need to read all the books again.
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