posted
The Fantasy Game in the World of the Ender series was a machine that interacted with the brain on a level of conscious and unconscious thought, of a small boy named Ender (along with countless others) but because of one small boy, with desire enough to imagine the impossible only because it was a Game, helped to create a Bridge (unwillingly, and even unknowingly) that in the end created Jane, as the bridge between bio minds and ultimately gave birth to a consciousness with out physical form, but still was able to interact with electrical and computeral forms...
This life form that we have come to love as Jane because she was birthed or sprung forth from like of minds. One part Human, One Part Formic, One Part Photonic/Electronce, ALL the same, Sentient Life. Or at least that's how the great Sci-fi story goes..
Now what would have happened if no sentient brain as we know it, Human, Formic, Piggie, Descolda, had a hand in creating this same bridge? Let's say a Rat hooked up to a computer and allowed to interact with each other as the Fantasy Game did with Ender, and a bridge was made? The bridge would not be Human-like. It would be a Rodentulating Computer Life form that could be in control. No chance anytime soon for discussion and some mutual understanding, because the Rat is still a rat, only with more reach to affect us Humans, conciously or not.
Now take that same idea... but instead... grow and cultivate only the brain of a rat in a dish. Dis-embodied from the start. No way of knowing that it should have been a Rat, only knowing nothing except what little genes it has left to tell it what to do and be. Live. Be alive and reach out and explore your environment? But it is only a brain in a dish created/engineered by Biomedical Doctors for what could be thought of a worthy cause, the help in the survial of and for Humans. Such as bomb disposal, taxi service, Computeral Maid?, &c... but still posses its threat for being a weapon..
The only real smart bomb is a Human that decideds when and where it will die for a worthy cause, walks up to its target decides and recognises that it has reached its goal from the information it knows and is considered enough to allow it to explode. And succeed in its worthy cause? A Human life was once wasted to do such a thing, but now the possibility is soon at hand where a Bio-machine that is able to think, taught enough to recognise and be smart enough and quicker and more efficent than a computer programed to do the same thing as a Human can do. The computer must be programed to recognise every one thing at a time for every one possible thing it needs to recognise to assure victory, and percieve it for what it is, in order to time it right. Every decision must be programed, where as a Human, only must look at the situation, taken in at a sub-conscious and conscious level, every preceivable outcome and decide when more than likely to die for this worthy cause.
But if you take this dis-embodied brain of a should have been Rat and place it in the center of a sealed dish, and place a hand full of electrodes, lets say 50-60- or even as many as you want! The brain reaches out, expands to explore its environment, connects to these electrodes... and then for each electrode available something happens?
In normal life we think or we just do, like move my hand, scratch my itch, or kick someone in the head because we have information telling us that it would like to be done (no matter how gental or fierce the outcome)
But what could a brain of a rat that lays in a dish do? Explore its environment, connect to these electrodes, learn what happens when it does this or that, or nothing at all. Now connect these elctrodes to a Computer, a game, a Simulator, a Fanasty game if you will? That interacts with the brain of a Rat, receiving and sending information. The brain learning its envioronment as a new life, as a new baby learns to walk, talk, to think. Trial and error. But this Fantasy game, this simulator is not simulating bio life, it is simulating a game that is popular among kids in arcades, a Flight simulator. Also used to train Pilots to either fly from point A to point B, can also be used to tain a pilot for war, and has been done already.
So we have a Biomedically engineered, cultivated brain in a dish, so small so tiny, connected to a computer telling it that its entire world is what is in this simulation. It is a brain that stretches out to be an F-22. It has so much hope for goodness, but so many more ways for it to be used as a tool. As Ender was in the series, as Jane was a tool to be the bridge between man and a story's Formic, a new life/sentient being was created because it was needed for some reason or other. Accidentally or not... the possibility is now more real than Science Fiction, it is Fact that the possibities are closer to happening now... more than ever.
All thanks to Dr. Thomas DeMarse, a biomedical engineer at the University of Florida in Gainesville.
Ever see the Canadian made movie called eXeisTenZ? (bio-engineered game-pods that plug into your belly button, or jacked into an artifical hole in the back of the spine that connects to the brain) Gives a good sci-fi view of what is capable and what life might be like if Biomedical devices came to be, the good and the bad sides.
To read the news artical from National Geographic, just click away...
TheAge - even has one of those nifty political cartoons so you know it might not be a good sign lol
Nerves on a chip - page 4 continued to page 5 Page 3 talks about Light speed comunnication a bit in the works also. First step Fiber Optics next step? Next step; Mr. Card should get Royalties! haha or atleast make a bid for them to be called 'Ansibles' since it would be a major PR contribution to sales, or lol out right offer them the name for a set price and or microcharges, or grant them rights to use it and use the funds to do what you talked about in your bookshelf store idea in the Digital Piracy lessons. I must admit, Ansibles are already a close call (pun intended) to 'Answerables' which essentually is what they are or rather would be.
posted
That is extremely interesting. I'm really curious as to how it all works. How exactly do the neurons communicate with the electrodes, and vice-versa. How exactly do they "know" when the F-22 is flying straight or not? And how do they tell the electrodes to correct it?
Either way, it's fascinating. And your post provokes thought as well. Posts: 290 | Registered: Sep 2002
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posted
From what I've read and understood, it starts out as trial and error for the brain and the computer, since the brain has to learn its environment. Apperently the plane used to ALWAYS crash... though I saw no reference if the brain itself died or not and new brains were made after each crash, but then again... maybe they don't have to replace the brains since because of this simulated environment, every time it crashed, all it learned was probably along the lines of "Hey! I can't move!" and then: Reset Reboot... "Hey I can do things again!" so I'm guessing the brain is not being taught the consquences of actions, such as the value of life and the serious damage death or a crash could mean to itself, since.. all it has to do is Reboot and its okay. And of course it doesn't want to stop oing anything anymore because its a brain? right? needs to be doing something, so the longer it stops crashing and stays flying the, um... Happier it is? If I recall its also not just an open space in the simulator. There is a ground, and there are weather conditions, such as rain, wind and clouds. So its eyes are the computer's sensors, it learns (eventually) what it likes and what it doesn't. Once it has a purpose in mind (say keep moving) it will do its best to interpit the data it recieves from the computer and electrodes.
Ack, bad mind I have... _CRASH_ Game of Life Simulation over... Then "Insert coin to Play Again" 10 9 8 7 6 5...
But as to how the Humans know it flys straight, they probably watch the screen and read the data out puts. As for the brain the signals probably are taught like Human speach but in a pulse wave/synaptic switch being fliped through the electrodes. Do it long enough and you can learn anything.
Maybe more so, something simular happens when say... Someone taunts you and calls you names or simillar, long enough you either adapt and ignore it, or take measures to stop it from happening again. But more on the same Synaps' are firing away that trys to teach you to do something about it, and of course, you could also end up learning to accept the abuse and either come to enjoy it or become taught by it so you'd react in a way you wish you'd stop, in fear and compliance.
posted
I do have one question that I want answered. Because Humans are running these experiments and they have chosen to cultivate a brain of a Rat, will they still somehow give it a maze to run through... like maybe... another Rat Brain attatched to a simulation of a Car? Motorbike? and have it run around a race track, or manouver through an actual maze?
oooh and... what was that life like robot's name.. made by Honda! ... (google oogle google) ASIMO!
Just imagine the possibilities... I mean it... imagine all the good and all the bad.. I mean Wow, Japanese Anime Persocons, able to help you like the Anime Chobits, they are you communication device, your access to the internet, when you speak to them you could be speaking to someone in another city like a phone, but way more interactive. And blah, yeah I know "of course its a guy saying he wants a cute robo-AI-girl at his side) but blah, if it looked like Sean Connery, Harrison Ford, Johnny Depp, there'd be just the same amount of demand... but I prefer Human even if this came to pass... because I can also think of the bad thats involved... "Happy b-day, here's your new friend, a thrid or fourth Generation model of the My Buddy Doll - and it's Child's Play (Sorry Jack, Chucky's back!) all over the place if things went awry and got slightly or way out of hand.
But eventually, all they'd have to do is take the information that makes ASIMO move, turn it intoa Simulation, give the brain an array of electrodes large enough to cope with ASIMO's functions, or use a bigger, better brain? Brain v2.0 like *shudder* a dolphin? or *shudder* chimp? or *shudder* Human brain, give it enough electrodes and enough time to learn its environments and we've just made the major leap into Cyborgs. I mean cyborgs that are unlike what we already have as today. The opposite way of creating cyborgs, build the body machine first then worry about getting the brain implanted (Think Robocop, both with the fact that they used a second hand brain that retained its memory, or how about even, just adding a cultivated brain)
Like so far, Kevin Warwick one of few pioneers in CyberTech. He started out Human, and has been experimenting on himself for a long time now. Something very small, a silicon chip implanted in his arm, interacted with different locations in the University he works at. He'd walk in a room, Computer would say Hi, lights on or off, able to store information, rather transmit info, like SSN or SIN card IDs, Credit card info &c... and this back before a news story in the year 2000. but more along the lines to eventually have a dual sensory. Having the computer be able to send him data that he can feel and him able to send data to the computer and possibly controll it in a way... Go to his name site, take a quick glance at 'Project Cyborg v1.0' which was 5 years ago, then compare to where he is at now in V2.0 of the Cyborg project. Amazing things and benifical in all sence to the handicapped or disabled that are missing limbs.
posted
This is absolutely facinating Rayven. I had no idea that scientists could do these types of things.
Posts: 17 | Registered: Mar 2005
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posted
Since these things are already happening today and thrusting forward at their own slow pace... after I read a comment by 'A Rat Named Dog' that pointed out a game that is soon to be released called Spore <--- Read all 5 pages plus the parody.
Now that you've read it... think for a moment.
That is a Simulator designed to Start at the very begining, learn its environment, and actually create its environment, along with evolving it self in the image it wants to. I wonder what would happen if this same Rat Brain was hooked up to a vast array of electrodes that either allowed it to interact and "Play" this game Spore as we would. Or even keep it isolated so it was limited to only one planet. Or give it to believe it was only one of these creatures, or as the game evolves, where it has control of civilizations.
Of course the Rat Brain wouldn't be "playing" - it would think that it was, knowing or not; in essence living its life in an environment as we ourselves see us as living in the environment. Humans in an Unverse. As it always would, no matter if the simulation was an F-22 as it is now. It believes, conciously or not, that it is the F-22.
The questions, which will never be answered unless, experimented with, is, "How would the Brain, once it learns new things to control the environment it is in, and that is itself, "play-out"?
Is it best to have the brain think it is only one of these single spores? Or the entire collection? What if it was killed or eaten? Or reversed- had been killed or eaten by another? Still retained itself, but with the additon of the new spore? as itself. In essence, basically adapt not only to biological, or physical means, but also mentally, sentient means.
All I ask is for you to think about it. And the only reason why I thought of connecting this Game called 'Spore' with the experiment already under way "Rat Brain Controls F-22 in simulator" is I asked myself one question...
"Would a brain of a Rat, that was cultivated in a petry dish, through artifical means by Biomedical Human Personel, still retain its Rodentulating genes to tell it that it is or should be a Rat and still somehow make the simulator environment into what it was and still take on the shape of the Rat it should have been, or at the very least something that would be very simular?"
If it somehow, eventually DID become the form of the Rat it should have been. Then at the very least, we'd have proven that what we know isn't limited to our own life and the environment around us that we experience, but also include the 'genetic memory' of their life and their environment of all those that came before it.
Think of.. the idea of a second hand brain again *Robocop again, sorry*. The brain retained its original memories of Alex Murphy, and became aware of its own self environment by learning to control its mechanical body. So even though it still was Alex Murphy, it was Alex Murphey in a different existence and conception. Adaption, while retaining previous knowledge, is just another way to exist in, simply put, another way.
But since this Rat Brain was cultivated, and had no first hand experience in being a Rat, it became the F-22 in the simulation. It exists, in its own way.
Connecting this Rat Brain to the simulator of the game "spore", and if through time, learned to evolve, and DID become the Rat it should have been or very close to it, then memory, 'genetic memory, could be considered even more so as a proven fact that no matter what environment you are in, and believe yourself to be, an F-22, Rat, or Human--- you would always try to be the you, you should have been.
posted
Fantastic Stuff, and as is they already have limbs they've designed to hook up to the brain that can be controlled just as functionally as any human brain. One thing Im interested in is the concept of touch. I don't know at all if this has actually been researched but in something I read one time it was suggested that if you made a skin that was filled with billions of fiberoptic cables, all leading to sensors that could interperet the data they presented you could essentially have touch. The concept is that light would be constantly streaming into the fiberoptics, and when there was pressure on some of them or the temperature around them changes the light traveling into them would be changed in amount/trajectory by a very small amount. I think the reason it probobly isnt actually being looked into scientifically is because the amount of computing power needed to figure that crap out is monumental, but when we're talking about cultivated brains I don't see the limit.
Posts: 13 | Registered: Mar 2005
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"In addition to being able to measure the nerve signals transmitted down Professor Wariwck’s left arm, the implant was also able to create artificial sensation by stimluating individual electrodes within the array. This was demonstrated with the aid of Kevin’s wife Irena and a second, less complex implantconnecting to her nervous system." - as quoted on Kevin Warwick's site in the Project Cyborg 2.0 section.
So at least, touch is being expermented with, even if for the most part it is still mainly, one way.
It could very will be that one of the end results of this Project Cyborg may actually end up explaining your curiousity, since at the very least they can measure and record the signals enough to artifically recreate it.
Kevin's wife Irene is also implanted, but with the original silicon chip model (maybe improved a bit, but still not 2.0 quality. And from whats been said, through a relay interface, they have been able to 'feel' each other by touching without actually touching each other. Instead, they touch themselves. Yeah I know that sounds dirty, maybe even might end up as one of the ways this technology can be used, but for now and for the most part, its one hell of a trick, would you say?
I'd even like to see this happen with this type of technology... but then again I have a warped sense of humour and/or devotion...
When you get married (not talking about the added joys of coupling here folks) why not actually be what the concept of marriage is supposed to mean? I mean... the Two become a One.
Man and Wife (or rather spouse and spouse in some countries) each get implanted with an array of electrodes that communicates with the computer data bases that send and recieve these specific signals, but can be upgraded later to accomodadte the needs of the chip implants. Lets say, set it to give a very low effecting burst impluse to the other spouse that lets them know that the other is alive, and always with them? and maybe even increase the pitch of this impulse to determine how far away or close they are from each other. *grins* Now that's what I'd call a net-working-marriage!
Also if it becomes a standard, could be used for kids too... I mean to know where your kids are if they go missing? At least about how far away they are from you? To know at the very least they're still alive? That would be a small relief in the midst of greatly worrying tragedy. I don't even suggest having it on all the time, just in the 'really need to know' worry situation. Could also be used to help find criminals that way (with authorisation by a set number of random government and civilians agreeing to it, if the need arose.)
Alas, I can also see the drawbacks, the ways to manipulate the systems... The cliche, "well if the chip is in the hand, or if it accessed by the eye, cut it off and by pass their objection to comply with your demands". Or ha! even clone/cultivate a copy of just the body part!? Also you might end up running into the situation or disposable identities... much like the same of ghost phones or disposable cameras, use once and throw it away. Or even the terrorfied thought of manipulating the system to either cloak where you are from others and make them think you're dead for their own reasons.
A positive thought though, an uncached/unrecorded, randomly chosen identity for those in the Witness relocation program. All set up based on what you you told them you want to do, but while still giving you the choice of say one out of ten picks, and remaining with more of a chance of being undiscovered.
Posts: 12 | Registered: Mar 2005
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posted
Already there's an alternate dimension where this topic doesn't exist and I spent these 15 minutes doing something less productive . . . Like chewing bricks.
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