posted
While I think Cards' Iron Man is OK, at least so far ... I think the other current Iron Man series - Extremis, blows the Ultimates away.
Yes, I know Extremis is part of the "old" Invincible series. But Extremis starts off with a revision of how Stark got into the whole Iron Man gig to begin with. And frankly, it's a lot more believable and timely than Cards' version.
First, there are more references to current history, such as how Tony Stark mocks the idea of satellite phones (Bill Gates and the internet), how he gets his start with microelectronics for land mines on the Afghan border, etc.
There is also the villain, who is a survivor of a WACO type incident. It's far more balanced. The villain is still a villain, but you understand him better. He isn't simply some "nyah nyah, I'm out to get the world type." He isn't justifiable either (he obviously enjoys immolating several hundred people, and is clearly a bastard.)
There is also the inner conflicts Tony feels. How is it that a guy so smart, just isn't on top of the technological game? One of the side characters critices Tony by telling him that he is "almost useful".
The finally there is the question of technological superiority. Tony builds machines that allow a man to use an existing situation. A colleague creates a means to adapt the man himself to the situation.
It's brilliant.
So far, what I've seen in Ultimate Iron Man is, like I said, OK. But it doesn't address larger issues the way Extremis does. Extremis makes you think about Technology in the Real World. What is the role of tech? How do we use it? Where is the line that says we're selling out, and where is the line that says we're fanatical about not being practical?
I think Card would have been a better choice for Ultimate X-men. His novels and writings tend to revolve more around the interactions of people and families, as well as to the "simpler" interactions of groups of families, i.e. politics.
But Iron Man, it seems to me, should be more about the interactions of man with the environment around him. About our role in technology, innovation, etc. The balance between practicality as well as idealism. Stark doesn't want to be a capitalist or a hippy, he simply wants to create great stuff ... but at the same time he needs resources to do it.
I highly recommend Extremis. I also recommend that Marvel take Card out of Ultimate Iron Man and put him in charge of X-Men.
Heh, not that anyone is going to rush to implement my suggestions, but there ya go!
posted
I'd be remiss if I didn't mention that the artwork seriously kicks massive tail. The fight scenes in issue #3 are easily the BEST I have seen in any comic EVER. Read it while listening to some techno beat, and you'll be blown away.
posted
Which x-men? Because Marvel isn't planning to take Joss Wheadon off of Astonishing, like, ever.
I'm reading Card's Iron Man just to see how he does. Never got into the iron man oeuvre before. Although I am reading New Avengers right now, and it's interesting to contract the two Iron men.
(BTW, I am NOT reading House of M, even though it centers on those two teams.)
Posts: 32 | Registered: Mar 2005
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posted
I agree that Joss Wheadon will never be taken off X-men, but I think Card would have been a better choice. Card has a deeper understanding of people and how they interact in groups. Everything he writes about ultimately centers around the concept of "family". I don't care what it is, it always comes down to that. Hell, even Lovelock was about family.
And that's X-men. They are ultimately about family, because they are all the family they have. I think Mr. Card could also do a more balanced job of how the families themselves would react or think about their children being mutants. Wheadon tends to be more one dimensional when it comes to aberrant behavior. For example there was that episode in Buffy where Tara is confronted by her inbred, bigoted family.
Now in real life, I somehow doubt that every lesbian whose family members are upset with her preference are going to be complete idiots. Somehow I think they might have just one or two redeeming qualities. Whedon would never show that, he would basically say "well if they don't approve then they must be terminally stupid and/or unable to even read, perhaps even evil."
Card, on the other hand, is capable of dealing with people who, even when wrong, are actually human. Whedon is not. Because he chooses not to be so. Which is why I think Card would be far better suited to doing X-men then Whedon is. I've noticed that in everything he writes Card goes way, way, wayyyy out of his path to understand his characters. I've never seen anything like that in Buffy or Angel. Which is one of the major reasons both series were hard for me to watch. Whedon is a great writer, he's just too full of his own self righteousness.
On the other hand, Iron Man is much more tech and business oriented. For example, in New York, a bunch of our "beloved" politicians just nixed a deal to build the West Side Stadium. The city desperately needs the jobs, the area desperately needed the uplift, and the prestige would do wonders for us. But naturally, this being New York, our politicos decided to kill the deal since that would actually be useful to the city. Partly to satisfy the inbred yahoos with too much time and money on their hands, partly because it isn't their baby, mostly to satisfy Cablevision who bought and paid for their "no" votes, etc. This gives you an idea of the kind of regulatory hell that we have here.
Now in Ultimate Iron Man, the elder Mr. Stark has (had) a top flight research department - right in the middle of the Hudson river.
Whereas in the Extremis series, the Stark building is far more modest and near Coney Island. With a ton of protesters hanging out on a regular basis. THAT last bit is definitely New York.
I know, it sounds petty, but it's just an example. Mr. Card is definitely in the top tier of writers (he happens to be my favorite author believe it or not), but I don't think he's Iron Man. He just doesn't ... get the rhythm of it. Still it's only issue number two, so maybe I should stop bitching and whining so much.
Nah.
I think he could do Iron Man believably, but he'd really have to read up on what it's like to be here and work in this area.
Anyway, I happen to be a bit teed off about the West Side Stadium right now (actually I'm furious especially since I knew it was going to play out this way), so that's where most of this current post is coming from.
Well, Mr. Card, if you are reading this, you should know that I'm going to buy all the Iron Man comics you write. The thing of it is - when it comes to you "good" isn't good enough. I love your stuff so damn much I expect it to be perfect.
posted
It was my understanding that Tara's family was not against her because of her lesbianism, but that they told ALL the young women in the family that they were really demons in order to control the women and keep them out of the public eye. Keeping women hidden is a common tactic in controlling and/or abusive families.
Actually, I find Wheadon to go out of his way to explain why people are "evil" sometimes. Buffy herself makes huge huge mistakes with Spike and treats him like an object, as a response to her trauma of coming back to life. Willow goes postal after Tara is killed. Xander leave Anya at the altar because of his fear of "real" family based on how he was brought up and Anya cheats on him in grief and a deep misunderstanding that men really are human beings, too. In Angel, Angel's son knows that the "goddess" is really a destroyer all the time and yet still serves her because he desprately need something to belive in when he learns that all that his father told him about his biological father was a lie. These are just examples. Card may go more in depth with his characters full emotional qualities simply because there's much more room to do so in trilogies that become decalogues, than there is in a 1-hour format tv show. And I don't recall Mr. Bowie getting any motivation - he seems to be just a rotten overall fellow.
I know nothing of New York or Iron Man so I can't relate to your criticisms there. Sorry. I'm more bothered by the over-the-top evil thing in Card's Iron Man than I have in anything by Wheadon. I have not seen Card going out of his way to explain why the bad guy is the bad guy so far, just that he's so bad that the illustrator has to give him horns for hair. (It's in the second issue, can't remember which page). I also find it interesting that you know the evil character is the bad guy (if you are not familiar with the Iron Man universe) because he is having an extra-marital affair. Mr. Card never goes out of his way to redeem or show any good qualities of adulterers. (Neither do I, by the way, that's part of my "moral universe" too. I fully admit to having no respect for or trust in someone who would willing break their marital vows.)
Finally, I must say as much as I like Astonishing, the whole "the danger room gets herself a body" storyline completely, what's the word?, um, whack. I'm waiting till the next issue to see if Wheadon can really pull off such a lame idea.
Posts: 32 | Registered: Mar 2005
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posted
AB - actually he did at least once try the "tragic infidelity" thing. But it was a long time ago, I think it was in one of the short stories in "the Worthing Saga".
I didn't notice the bad hairdo for Stane. But keep in mind that neighter Stane nor Mrs. Stark were married at the time of issue #1. I don't think Stane is over the top evil, he's actually pretty bland. All he wants is the bio-armor. And to rule the world ... pretty normal stuff.
The hair is nasty though!
I don't think that it is so much Buffy who treated Spike like an object as it was his creator - Whedon. Why didn't Spike just get up and walk, and what was with the "She believes in me" @$%$? It was stuff like that which turned me off to the show in its later stages.
posted
Does anyone know of a web site where you can purchase the Ultimate Iron Man comics? Could OSC sell them on Hatrack.com?
I live in Memphis, and I've been waiting for Issue #2 to come out. None of the comic book stores ever received it. They had the first one, but none after that.
Posts: 187 | Registered: Jul 2003
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posted
#2 came out just recently; the comic has been heavily delayed. As long as the comic book stores ordered it, it'll be there.
Posts: 37449 | Registered: May 1999
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posted
Guys, there have only been two issues so far! Isn't it a bit early to start complaining that Stark doesn't have the right feel (particularly since we've only had Tony Stark actually speaking for one issue), and we haven't seen much of the villain at all yet?
As for the villain, in the first issue, his behavior is to me completely believable. Only in the second issue does he cross from jerk to way-over-the-line villain, and we haven't gotten a good enough look at him yet to decide if that's way over-the-top or not.
Posts: 17164 | Registered: Jun 2001
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posted
Tragic infidelity - you mean the story in Worthing Saga with the man who raises kids who aren't his own, and the he dies trying to save one of the children? That caused me to sob for hours. I guess Novinha also sort of counts. I really like the way Mr. Card shows just how destructive infidelity is, even if he shows how it makes sense to the characters to break their vows.
Lets agree to disagree about Wheadon, k! Obviously I like his work alot and you don't, and I don't have the energy to argue about it.
As for Mr. Bowie, I'm referring to Jim Bowie in Crystal City. Pretty unmitigated (unmotivated?) evil.
IRON MAN SPOILER!!!
Hmmm - over the top, or not? Willfully damaging people's brains for information? Subjecting a child to unimaginable torture? Hmmmmm - seems over the top to me. Not for comic book villains, you understand, just in reality.
Posts: 32 | Registered: Mar 2005
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posted
I'm sorry, what I meant to say was 'over-the-top' as in implausible or ridiculous. For a more common ruthless executive, brain-rape and torturing children is way over-the-top. For someone such as Himmler, however, it's not over-the-top in the sense that it's not implausible.
Posts: 17164 | Registered: Jun 2001
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posted
Maybe it's way over the top because there are usually more profitable ways of getting what you want. I mean normal people generally don't engage in violent crime because ... of cops. We think we don't because we're such nice people.
Anyway, what if you are a super ambitious guy with a lot of power and money, and you don't have a healthy fear of getting arrested? Also, everything you have may very well come crashing down if you don't get this ... one ... thing.
Furthermore, he isn't snidely whiplash. When Starks' wife died, you could see that the bad guy geniunly felt bad. That's not unrealistic, I mean it's not like he had a personal problem with Stark, he just wants to take everything the man has ever worked on.
On the other hand, Stane hasn't yet tortured Tony, he just removed some of the bio-armor and is putting the mindwiper on the head of the kid to scare him. It's not like Tony knows anything about how the bio armor works.
Stane is just ruthless. He doesn't particularly get up in the morning, look in the mirror and say "hmmm, how deliciously eeee-vil." (that's what Victor von Doom does). He just gets up in the morning, looks in the mirror, then smashes it when he thinks of how effectively he's been played by the elder Mr. Stark and how the company which he just purchased majority stock is totally useless without the bio-armor project.
Which explains why he's getting more and more desperate.
posted
I don't know, ballantra_jlinx, I reached a much different conclusion.
Normal people don't engage in violent crime for a variety of reasons, among them being fear, sure, but also things like decency, lack of desperation, honor, lack of experience with violence, etc.
He appeared to look like he felt bad-we don't know if he actually did. He certainly didn't cut Stark one centimeter of slack, you'll notice. Personally I think he couldn't possibly care less about the death, but it's polite and expected to look sympathetic and sorry.
He wants to steal everything Stark ever worked on, after having ruined Stark as best he can to do it.
Remember, he (Stane) also put the lid on Stark's assistant, and beat him with a baseball bat, even though he knew it would render the man horribly brain-damaged for life.
He's causing Tony deliberate, unnecessary pain, and kind of smirking about it.
I think that's dagnasty evil, but I'm not sure if it's 'over-the-top' yet because we haven't seen what's motivating Stane except desperation and ambition. We haven't heard his self-justifications yet, if he has any.
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